UNDER THE LAW!

not under law · Mar 24, 2020

HARK! said:
YHWH gave his law, to those who would hear him, from the beginning. In the beginning was the word. For those who didn't have an ear, he wrote his law in stone. even that wasn't sufficient for those who have hearts of stone; so in the new covenant he wrote his law on our hearts. It's harder to stiffen your neck, and walk right by it, that way.

Now why didn't you write that in the first place? I agree with you. Would have been much better wouldn't it to reach agreement in the first place. So it is not a law written in ink, but one written on tablets of human hearts

HARK! · Mar 24, 2020

not under law said:
Now why didn't you write that in the first place?

Oh! You're back.

I asked you first. You brought it up.

Anyway, all's well that ends well.

parousia70 · Mar 24, 2020

HARK! said:
I follow YHWH's law. That's what Yahshua calls us to do.

Indeed, The moral/ethical law of love of God and love of neighbor (i.e., the Law of Christ). However in the Scripture referenced int he OP when Paul discusses those "under the law", he is referring to The ceremonial and ritual law of the Temple, as mediated through the Levitical priesthood established under Moses, which was nailed to the cross and thrust into extinction at AD 70.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Romans 5:13
13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Before the Law was Given, Adam's Sin was imputed unto all, and as such Death reigned over all, regardless of whether or not people sinned...ALL were condemned... even if you did not sin, Death reigned over you.

Then The Law was given and gave indivudal's sins the strength to condemn them.

Now that Christ has fulfilled the law, there are two realities:
1) You are either IN ADAM, condemned whether you sin or not (as it was before the law)

OR

2)You are IN CHRIST, saved even though you sin.

Our Sins re no longer the measuring stick God uses to determine our salvation status.

Sin is now powerless to prevent anyone from Salvation.

In fact, ONLY sinners get saved.

not under law · Mar 24, 2020

parousia70 said:
However in the Scripture referenced int he OP when Paul discusses those "under the law", he is referring to The ceremonial and ritual law of the Temple, as mediated through the Levitical priesthood established under Moses, which was nailed to the cross and thrust into extinction at AD 70.

1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
Romans 5:13
13 For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

.

I don't want to misunderstand you. Do you believe Paul's statements of not being under law solely refer to Levitical law?

parousia70 · Mar 24, 2020

not under law said:
I don't want to misunderstand you. Do you believe Paul's statements of not being under law solely refer to Levitical law?

Absolutely.
1 Cor 9:20
and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

I think it's important to note that the only people ever under the Law were Jews.

Gentiles were not given the law, and were never under it's blessings or curses.

Even if the law were still in effect today (which it isn't) it would only be applicable to Jews.

As I said, The Law gave sin it's power, and now that the law has been fulfilled, sin has lost it's power. Sin can no longer keep anyone from salvation.

Today, you are either "in Adam" in which case you are already condemned whether you sin or not, or you are "in Christ", saved even though you sin.

Individual sins have no bearing upon ones status "in Christ".
If they did, no one could be saved.

Now, Paul was very clear that just because the law was obsloete and sin was without it's strength, didn't mean we can "do as we please":

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Christians have a much higher standard than the law engraved on tablets of stone.

We have the Spirit written on the fleshly tablets of our heart. That law requires a much harder/higher/more righteous standard. The life of Christ and love of the brethren.

The Law offered no aid to the demands it required upon pain of death. Instead, the royal law from our New Lawgiver provides us with the means (new life) to accomplish its goal (people zealous for good deeds).

Now as a slave to righteousness our inclination and desire is to please our heavenly Father and love the brotherhood. Our motivation is different as well. Instead of the fear of death and punishment, we have no condemnation and are motivated by love (perfect love casts out fear).

So we are truly free, from condemnation and fear, but love constrains us to act, and the Spirit strives against the flesh so that we don't carry out what we might.

not under law · Mar 24, 2020

parousia70 said:
Absolutely.
1 Cor 9:20
and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

I think it's important to note that the only people ever under the Law were Jews.

Gentiles were not given the law, and were never under it's blessings or curses.

Even if the law were still in effect today (which it isn't) it would only be applicable to Jews.

As I said, The Law gave sin it's power, and now that the law has been fulfilled, sin has lost it's power. Sin can no longer keep anyone from salvation.

Today, you are either "in Adam" in which case you are already condemned whether you sin or not, or you are "in Christ", saved even though you sin.

Individual sins have no bearing upon ones status "in Christ".
If they did, no one could be saved.

Now, Paul was very clear that just because the law was obsloete and sin was without it's strength, didn't mean we can "do as we please":

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Christians have a much higher standard than the law engraved on tablets of stone.

We have the Spirit written on the fleshly tablets of our heart. That law requires a much harder/higher/more righteous standard. The life of Christ and love of the brethren.

The Law offered no aid to the demands it required upon pain of death. Instead, the royal law from our New Lawgiver provides us with the means (new life) to accomplish its goal (people zealous for good deeds).

Now as a slave to righteousness our inclination and desire is to please our heavenly Father and love the brotherhood. Our motivation is different as well. Instead of the fear of death and punishment, we have no condemnation and are motivated by love (perfect love casts out fear).

So we are truly free, from condemnation and fear, but love constrains us to act, and the Spirit strives against the flesh so that we don't carry out what we might.

Its a hard thing, many believe if you are not under the moral law you have a licence to sin. But you don't.
Not being under the law is not being under righteousness of obeying the law. There would not be a problem of being under the law in respect of what is often termed the legalistic law, for Saul the Pharisee could perfectly obey that law, as could Pharisees of Jesus day who did not know God. The problem of obedience was always the moral law as it were.
Why is the power of sin the law? Again, this cannot refer to the legalistic law, for that could be perfectly obeyed. So sin had no power concerning that law. The reason believers must die to the law/righteousness of obeying the law, is because they cannot/do not obey fully the letter of the moral law.

Paul wrote:
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law(the power of sin being the law) were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law(righteousness of obeying it) so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. Rom7:4-6

Which law is Paul referring to in the above? In the next five verses he carries on, giving a personal example from his own life as to why he had to die to the law/not be under the law:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 7-11

The example Paul gave as to why he had to die to the law/not be under the law was: Thou shalt not covet, one of the Ten Commandments and part of the moral law. And sin had power over him concerning this law, for through Saul's knowledge of it, all manner of concupiscence was aroused in him

HARK! · Mar 24, 2020

parousia70 said:
Indeed, The moral/ethical law of love of God and love of neighbor (i.e., the Law of Christ)

Messiah's law is YHWH's law, the Torah of Moshe.

(CLV) Dt 6:5
So you will love YHWH your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your intensity.

(CLV) Lv 19:18
You shall not avenge nor shall you be resentful against the sons of your people. You will love your associate as yourself: I am YHWH.

(CLV) Ec 1:9
What occurred once, it shall occur again, And what was done, it shall be done again. There is nothing at all new under the sun.

(CLV) 1Jn 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we may be keeping His precepts. And His precepts are not heavy,

(CLV) Dt 30:10
when you hearken to the voice of Yahweh your Elohim to observe His instructions and His statutes, the ones written in this scroll of the law, once you return to Yahweh your Elohim with all your heart and with all your soul.

(CLV) Dt 30:11
For this instruction that I am enjoining on you today, it is neither too difficult for you, nor is it too far off.

(CLV) Dt 30:12
It is neither in the heavens for you to say: Who shall ascend to the heavens for us and take it for us and announce it to us that we may do it?

(CLV) Dt 30:13
Nor is it across the sea for you to say: Who shall cross across the sea for us and take it for us and announce it to us that we may do it?

(CLV) Dt 30:14
For the word is exceedingly near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, to do it.

(CLV) Dt 30:15
See! I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.

(CLV) Dt 30:16
If you should hearken to the instructions of Yahweh your Elohim that I am enjoining on you today, to love Yahweh your Elohim, to walk in His ways and to observe His instructions, His statutes and His ordinances, then you will live and multiply, and Yahweh your Elohim will bless you in the land where you are entering to tenant it.

parousia70 said:
However in the Scripture referenced int he OP when Paul discusses those "under the law", he is referring to The ceremonial and ritual law of the Temple, as mediated through the Levitical priesthood established under Moses,

Nonsense. Scripture doesn't support that assumption.

The Levitical Priesthood is an eternal covenant. They be making sacrifices in the Kingdom to come.

Ezekiel 43:

19 And you have given unto the priests, the Levites, who [are] of the seed of Zadok--who are near unto Me, an affirmation of the Lord Yahweh, to serve Me--a calf from the herd, for a sin-offering." 20 And you have taken of its blood, and have put it on its four horns, and on the four corners of its border, and on the border round about, and have cleansed it, and purified it." 21 And you have taken the bullock of the sin-offering, and have burnt it in the appointed place of the house at the outside of the sanctuary." 22 And on the second day you do bring near a kid of the goats, a perfect one, for a sin-offering, and they have cleansed the altar, as they cleansed [it] for the bullock." 23 In your finishing cleansing, you do bring near a calf, a son of the herd, a perfect one, and a ram out of the flock, a perfect one." 24 And you have brought them near before Yahweh, and the priests have cast upon them salt, and have caused them to go up, a burnt-offering to Yahweh." 25 Seven days you do prepare a goat for a sin-offering daily, and a bullock, a son of the herd, and a ram out of the flock, perfect ones, do they prepare." 26 Seven days they purify the altar, and have cleansed it, and filled their hand." 27 And the days are completed, and it has come to pass on the eighth day, and henceforth, the priests prepare on the altar your burnt-offerings and your peace-offerings, and I have accepted you--an affirmation of the Lord Yahweh.'"

(CLV) Isa 56:7
I will bring them also to My holy mountain And make them rejoice in My house of prayer; Their ascent offerings and their sacrifices They shall offer up for acceptance on My altar, For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.

(CLV) Jer 33:18
As for the Levitical priests there shall not be cut off a man from before Me who offers up the ascent offering and fumes the approach present and offers sacrifices for all the days.

(CLV) Zch 14:20
In that day there shall be on the horse shades: Holy to Yahweh. And the pots in the house of Yahweh will be like the sprinkling bowls before the altar.

(CLV) Zch 14:21
And every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will come to be holy to Yahweh of hosts. And all who are sacrificing will come and take of them and cook in them. And no longer shall there be a trafficker in the house of Yahweh of hosts, in that day.

(CLV) Mal 3:3
And He will sit like a refiner and a cleanser of silver. And He will cleanse the sons of Levi, and purify them like gold and like silver. And they will come to be for Yahweh, bringing close the approach present in righteousness.

(CLV) Mal 3:4
Then the approach present of Judah and Jerusalem will be congenial to Yahweh as in the days of the eon, and as in former years.

parousia70 said:
which was nailed to the cross and thrust into extinction at AD 70.

More nonsense. Scripture doesn't support that either.

(CLV) Mt 5:17
"You should not infer that I came to demolish the law or the prophets. I came not to demolish, but to fulfill.

(CLV) Mt 5:18
For verily, I am saying to you, Till heaven and earth should be passing by, one iota or one serif may by no means be passing by from the law till all should be occurring.

parousia70 said:
1 Corinthians 15:56
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

What is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

parousia70 said:
Before the Law was Given, Adam's Sin was imputed unto all, and as such Death reigned over all, regardless of whether or not people sinned...ALL were condemned... even if you did not sin, Death reigned over you.

Don't tell Enoch.

parousia70 said:
Now that Christ has fulfilled the law, there are two realities:
1) You are either IN ADAM, condemned whether you sin or not (as it was before the law)

OR

2)You are IN CHRIST, saved even though you sin.

False dichotomy.

(CLV) 1Jn 3:8
Yet he who is doing sin is of the Adversary, for from the beginning is the Adversary sinning. For this, was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary.

(CLV) Mt 7:21
"Not everyone saying to Me `Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens.
(CLV) Mt 7:22
Many will be declaring to Me in that day, `Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'

(CLV) Mt 7:23
And then shall I be avowing to them that `I never knew you! Depart from Me, workers~ of LAWLESSNESS!'

parousia70 said:
Our Sins re no longer the measuring stick God uses to determine our salvation status.

Sin is now powerless to prevent anyone from Salvation.

In fact, ONLY sinners get saved.

(CLV) Hb 10:28
Anyone -repudiating Moses' LAW is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
(CLV) Hb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?

HARK! · Mar 24, 2020

parousia70 said:
Absolutely.
1 Cor 9:20
and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;

I think it's important to note that the only people ever under the Law were Jews.

Nonsense

parousia70 said:
Gentiles were not given the law, and were never under it's blessings or curses.

Nonsense

parousia70 said:
Even if the law were still in effect today (which it isn't) it would only be applicable to Jews.

It is in effect today. All will be held accountable.

parousia70 said:
As I said, The Law gave sin it's power, and now that the law has been fulfilled, sin has lost it's power. Sin can no longer keep anyone from salvation.

It can if you trample Yahshua's sacrifice.

parousia70 said:
Now, Paul was very clear that just because the law was obsloete and sin was without it's strength, didn't mean we can "do as we please":

More nonsense.

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

(CLV) Ro 7:22
For I am gratified with the law of God as to the man within,

(CLV) Ro 7:25
I thank God, through Jesus Christ, our Lord. Consequently, then, I myself, with the mind, indeed, am slaving for God's law, yet with the flesh for Sin's law.

(CLV) 1Co 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the precepts of God.

(CLV) Ac 21:24
Taking these along, be purified together with them, and bear their expenses, that they should be shaving their heads, and all will know that what they have been instructed concerning you is nothing, but you also are observing the elements and you yourself are maintaining the law.

(CLV) Ac 24:14
"Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,

(CLV) Ac 25:8
Paul defending that "Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the sanctuary, nor against Caesar did I any sin."

(CLV) Ac 17:1
Now, traversing Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews.

(CLV) Ac 17:2
Now, as was Paul's custom, he entered to them, and on three sabbaths he argues with them from the scriptures,

parousia70 said:
We have the Spirit written on the fleshly tablets of our heart. That law requires a much harder/higher/more righteous standard. The life of Christ and love of the brethren.

(CLV) Mt 5:20
For I am saying to you that, if ever your righteousness should not be superabounding more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, by no means may you be entering into the kingdom of the heavens.

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

parousia70 said:
Now as a slave to righteousness

Definition of righteous

1 : acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin
Definition of RIGHTEOUS

parousia70 · Mar 24, 2020

HARK! said:
It can if you trample Yahshua's sacrifice.

Which is, sadly, exactly what you are promoting when you teach this:

The Levitical Priesthood is an eternal covenant. They be making sacrifices in the Kingdom to come.

The teaching of a reinstitution of this blood sacrificial system is a rebuke against the blood of Jesus Christ, indeed a TRAMPLING upon His sacrifice, and a cause for anathema according to the apostles. A return to this system is a falling away from salvation, according to the apostles. A falling from the grace of Jesus Christ, and should be roundly, vehemently rejected by any Honest Subject and Follower of Yahshua.

HARK! · Mar 24, 2020

parousia70 said:
The teaching of a reinstitution of this blood sacrificial system is a rebuke against the blood of Jesus Christ, indeed a TRAMPLING upon His sacrifice, and a cause for anathema according to the apostles. A return to this system is a falling away from salvation, according to the apostles. A falling from the grace of Jesus Christ, and should be roundly, vehemently rejected by any Honest Subject and Follower of Yahshua.

I gave you scripture. You gave me your interpretation, of unspecified scripture.

You deny scripture? If so, you deny the teachings of Yahshua.

HARK! · Mar 24, 2020

@Saint Steven CLV stands for Concordant Literal Version. It's a word for word translation. It mostly conforms to the Critical Text. It's not perfect; but it's better than most translations.

You can find it here: CLV - Concordant Literal Version

Bible translations are market driven:

Saint Steven · Mar 24, 2020

HARK! said:
CLV stands for Concordant Literal Version.

Thank you very much.

Dkh587 · Mar 24, 2020

1213 said:
Yes, but by what I have understood from the Bible and also otherwise, many people try to obey, not because they love, but because they try to achieve something by doing so.

I never read about anybody in the Bible wanting to obey God’s commandments for any reason other than they loved him

HARK! · Mar 24, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Thank you very much.

You're welcome

Dkh587 · Mar 24, 2020

not under law said:
You do know it is not a law written in ink for the believer under the new covenant don't you
BTW
It may be good to clarify your statement. You try to obey the law, but often fail to obey it at the pristine level it is set at

The law is now written on the heart in the new covenant. The Holy Spirit will not lead us in a way that opposes the written law of God

Saint Steven · Mar 24, 2020

HARK! said:
You're welcome

@DamianWarS
I knew it sounded familiar. I just remembered why. (no hell versions)

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

HARK! · Mar 24, 2020

Saint Steven said:
@DamianWarS
I knew it sounded familiar. I just remembered why. (no hell versions)

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46

Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).

(CLV) Mt 25:46
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Kind of hard to get around this one:

(CLV) 1Co 9:21
to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally (εννομος) Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law.

...But somehow they seem to skim right over it.

not under law · Mar 24, 2020

Dkh587 said:
The law is now written on the heart in the new covenant. The Holy Spirit will not lead us in a way that opposes the written law of God

You would also agree: Through the law we become conscious of sin Rom3:20. Therefore, if God has written Torah in believers heart and minds, this would mean that no one could be a Christian unless they were conscious they sinned by failing to observe it

not under law · Mar 24, 2020

Dkh587 said:
I never read about anybody in the Bible wanting to obey God’s commandments for any reason other than they loved him

Did the leaders of the Pharisees of Jesus day love God? They didn't want to obey the entire law, true, but what is often termed the legalistic law they were most eager to follow

SkyWriting · Mar 25, 2020

HARK! said:
I don't believe that Paul made up this expression.

You just claimed that no one else ever used it.
God is not so shallow as to allow TRUTH to be imparted to only one writer.

"Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.
It's found 11 times in his writings."

And revealed to no other person,
in history? God is bigger than that.

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