LDS How many negative charges has been made about JS character in LDS History? Just, curious.

Jamesone5 said:

And you said:
"How does one loose that designation?" I thought the scripture I posted was plain enough to understand.---he is the Way

And then I added this:


God chastises His children for not keeping His commandments and doing His will--He is the Way

So, people who are not obeying Him are the only ones who are suffering chastisement? You think that you are good and that makes you immune from suffering? Good luck with that notion.

What about Job----was he really, really bad and that is why he lost his children and all his possessions?. You are talking like his friends who, God chastised for NOT trusting in HIM.

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If you read the scripture you would realize that everyone receives chastisement from God:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:7 - 8)

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

So how are ALL partakers? Because we all have God's commandments to live by. Just like children are chastised by their parents so they learn correct principles, we are taught correct principles by God.

He is the way said:

Jesus did indeed LOVE His enemies. He practiced what He preached. The only time I know of when He got angry was when the money changers were desecrating the temple and He drove them off. Thank you for your comments.

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You are welcome, and thank you for taking the time to answer and evaluate what I have offered.

I now think of how Jesus rebuked His disciples for being ready to call fire down on those people who rejected Jesus >

Luke 9:51-56

People did not receive their message; so then John and James asked if Jesus wanted them to command fire to come down and consume those people, like how Elijah did.

"But He turned and rebuked them, and said, 'You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives but to save them.'" (in Luke 9:55-56)

So, I see here how Jesus was angry, yet ready right away to bring their attention to what is right. Often I see how scripture has this one-two combination, of first giving a strong confrontation of what is wrong, but then right away a strong encouragement to all which is so better, instead.

So, though He was angry, He was ready to bring them to what is good.

But > "the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God." (in James 1:20)

About all sharing in our Father's correction . . . you said:

So how are ALL partakers? Because we all have God's commandments to live by. Just like children are chastised by their parents so they learn correct principles, we are taught correct principles by God.

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Yes, we have God's commandments, and there are principles to keep.

But does He correct only our actions and thinking??

Hebrews 12:4-14 which you have quoted says what is the result of God's correction >

"that we may be partakers of His holiness", in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness" > in Hebrews 12:4-14. Through this I see how God corrects our character, most of all. He changes us to be maturing in how His own love is, so we are so sharing with Him > 1 John 4:17.

So, Biblical correction is not only reforming our behavior or even our attitudes, but deeper is how God cures our nature so we have our Creator's all-loving character of love creatively effecting our thinking and attitudes and behavior . . . and producing how we relate with one another and love any and all people.

I think of how Joseph > Genesis 37-50 < went through such hard things, but he did this with God; and so, because he went through things with God, he had all-loving results of what he went through and did. He did not only have good things work out to come his way. He even was kind to his brothers who had some him into slavery.

Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart", He says in Matthew 11:29. I now see this means He is humble so He can submit to our Heavenly Father and be so pleasing to our Father in Heaven. And Jesus being humble also means that, even though Jesus is so superior . . . He is humble . . . not conceited about how He really is superior ! ! ! And so, Jesus the most superior One came to this earth in order to reach humans and personally share with ones so into themselves, and Jesus so suffered and died with hope for even the most evil of people. So, Jesus is not conceited > I think this has to do partly with what it means to be humble

It is not just obeying a set of rules, then, or being subject to rulership of certain leaders.

So God's correction changes us so we can submit personally to God in us, and be humble, also, by not conceitedly looking down on anyone, but having hope in love and prayer for any and all people > love "hopes all things" (in 1 Corinthians 13:7).

He is the way said:

If you read the scripture you would realize that everyone receives chastisement from God:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:7 - 8)

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

So how are ALL partakers? Because we all have God's commandments to live by. Just like children are chastised by their parents so they learn correct principles, we are taught correct principles by God.

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And yet Mormons only hope THEY can endure this chastisement?

(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:13)

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

And I am having a hard time keeping up with you assertions. First you say

God chastises His children for not keeping His commandments and doing His will--He is the Way

Then you say:

If you read the scripture you would realize that everyone receives chastisement from God:---He is the Way

Which is telling me a lot of Mormons are NOT keeping His Commanments and doing His Will.

Jamesone5 said:

And yet Mormons only hope THEY can endure this chastisement?

(Pearl of Great Price | Articles of Faith 1:13)

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

And I am having a hard time keeping up with you assertions. First you say

God chastises His children for not keeping His commandments and doing His will--He is the Way

Then you say:

If you read the scripture you would realize that everyone receives chastisement from God:---He is the Way

Which is telling me a lot of Mormons are NOT keeping His Commanments and doing His Will.

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There are a lot of people in every church and denomination that are not keeping the commandments and doing what they should be doing.

He is the way said:

There are a lot of people in every church and denomination that are not keeping the commandments and doing what they should be doing.

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What does that have to do with enduring or Mormons hoping to endure?

Jamesone5 said:

What does that have to do with enduring or Mormons hoping to endure?

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It has everything to do with this comment that you made:
"Which is telling me a lot of Mormons are NOT keeping His Commanments and doing His Will."

It is like the stove calling the pot black. By the way the word commandments has a d in it.

you

He is the way said:

It has everything to do with this comment that you made:
"Which is telling me a lot of Mormons are NOT keeping His Commanments and doing His Will."

It is like the stove calling the pot black. By the way the word commandments has a d in it.

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You are thinking enduring is all about keeping the commandments.--not I

2 Thessalonians 1:4
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

Matthew 13:21
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles

Hardships, persecutions, tribulations, sorrows, even this current virus,etc. is what we are promised to endure though, yet Mormons will say we only HOPE to endure.

No wonder we disagree on many things. We are talking a different language where words mean something different. I merely inadvertently used your misunderstanding against you, when you used the word chastise or chastening,

Jamesone5 said:

you


You are thinking enduring is all about keeping the commandments.--not I

2 Thessalonians 1:4
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

Matthew 13:21
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles

Hardships, persecutions, tribulations, sorrows, even this current virus,etc. is what we are promised to endure though, yet Mormons will say we only HOPE to endure.

No wonder we disagree on many things. We are talking a different language where words mean something different. I merely inadvertently used your misunderstanding against you, when you used the word chastise or chastening,

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(New Testament | Matthew 24:12 - 13)

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I am not ashamed of hope:

(New Testament | Romans 5:1 - 5)

1 THEREFORE being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

He is the way said:

(New Testament | Matthew 24:12 - 13)

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I am not ashamed of hope:

(New Testament | Romans 5:1 - 5)

1 THEREFORE being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

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Enduring is not about how many good works you can do--as the verses I quoted before attest to.It is the enduring in the case to the cold love that is already here. It is enduring when things are our to control around you----in this case to the pestilence that is happening right now. Or earthquakes or famines or wars. Verse 13 ends that passage where it tells us other things that will cause fear and of course about deception and being decieved.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Now if Mormons HOPE they endure these things that are coming on the earth, from their own Articles of Faith, they do not TRUST God as they suppose.

I am not ashamed of hope:---He is the Way​

​

Seems your whole basis of your Faith in your Chruch and prophets is based on this hope you are not ashamed of.​

​

But yet you so casually utter "I Know"​

He is the way said:

(New Testament | Matthew 24:12 - 13)

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

I am not ashamed of hope:

(New Testament | Romans 5:1 - 5)

1 THEREFORE being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

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1 Corinthians 13:7
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Or from you Articles of Faith

We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things.

The question in which version are you Mormons supposed to folow?

sounds like with the word "we", it is a Mormons own efforts they are relying on. And of course the addition-- HOPE to be able to endure all things.

Jamesone5 said:

1 Corinthians 13:7
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Or from you Articles of Faith

We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things.

The question in which version are you Mormons supposed to folow?

sounds like with the word "we", it is a Mormons own efforts they are relying on. And of course the addition-- HOPE to be able to endure all things.

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Trying to find fault when there is no fault. Those who are looking for fault will find it even when it does not exist.

He is the way said:

Trying to find fault when there is no fault. Those who are looking for fault will find it even when it does not exist.

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The first one [the true one] is a Promise--
the LDS one is at best, a maybe

Does Scripture record in Acts a Stephen who said "I hope to be able to endure this" when they were stoning him? No, he trusted God to the very end of his life--even prayed for those who were stoning him.
Acts 7:59-60
59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep

JS, on the other hand did not even try to endure at the End---he had a pistol and shot at 2 or 3-- killing one. Jumped out the window because His God could not save him.
Hardly a martyr.

That is what enduring to the End means, not how many good works we think we can do on our own.

Jamesone5 said:

The first one [the true one] is a Promise--
the LDS one is at best, a maybe

Does Scripture record in Acts a Stephen who said "I hope to be able to endure this" when they were stoning him? No, he trusted God to the very end of his life--even prayed for those who were stoning him.
Acts 7:59-60
59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, “Lord, do not charge them with this sin.” And when he had said this, he fell asleep

JS, on the other hand did not even try to endure at the End---he had a pistol and shot at 2 or 3-- killing one. Jumped out the window because His God could not save him.
Hardly a martyr.

That is what enduring to the End means, not how many good works we think we can do on our own.

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Joseph Smith did not kill anyone as he was trying to protect the others from the mob while in the Carthage jail. He jumped out the window to protect the others in the room. When he jumped from the window the mob left the jail to get him. Those left in the room survived.

He is the way said:

Joseph Smith did not kill anyone as he was trying to protect the others from the mob while in the Carthage jail. He jumped out the window to protect the others in the room. When he jumped from the window the mob left the jail to get him. Those left in the room survived.

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You were there and witnessed it back then, right?

Even as you said, he tried to protect others---what others? He and Hyrum were in the cell and Hyrum was already dead.

I know ---"hope to be able to endure to the End" from his false Articles of Faith.

Jamesone5 said:

You were there and witnessed it back then, right?

Even as you said, he tried to protect others---what others? He and Hyrum were in the cell and Hyrum was already dead.

I know ---"hope to be able to endure to the End" from his false Articles of Faith.

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These were the people in the Jail:
"The Smith brothers were held at the Carthage Jail and were joined there by Willard Richards, John Taylor, and John Solomon Fullmer. Six other associates accompanied the Smiths: John P. Greene, Stephen Markham, Dan Jones, John S. Fullmer, Dr. Southwick, and Lorenzo D. Wasson.

From: Death of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia

Yes I do hope to endure to the end:

(New Testament | Matthew 24:13)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

He is the way said:

These were the people in the Jail:
"The Smith brothers were held at the Carthage Jail and were joined there by Willard Richards, John Taylor, and John Solomon Fullmer. Six other associates accompanied the Smiths: John P. Greene, Stephen Markham, Dan Jones, John S. Fullmer, Dr. Southwick, and Lorenzo D. Wasson.

From: Death of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia

Yes I do hope to endure to the end:

(New Testament | Matthew 24:13)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

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Yes I do hope to endure to the end;--He is the Way

Then we take this verse you added

(New Testament | Matthew 24:13)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved​

so you only hope you are saved.
Got it

We can play this resource game all day. Here is one with no mention of these others JS was supposed to be trying to protect.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/mormon-leader-killed-by-mob