God's Decree

Aussie Pete · Mar 24, 2020

renniks said:
Yes, God does miracles. Yes, he turns bad into good. But yes, men go against his will daily. This is a battleground. His will isn't done here as it is in heaven, yet.

It will be. That is as certain as night follows day.

HatGuy · Mar 24, 2020

Jonaitis said:
If you could quote half the bible, could you help me understand what Isaiah 37:26-27 says?

“Have you not heard that I determined it long ago? I planned from days of old what now I bring to pass, that you should make fortified cities crash into heaps of ruins, while their inhabitants, shorn of strength, are dismayed and confounded, and have become like plants of the field and like tender grass, like grass on the housetops, blighted before it is grown."

Here, from what I understand, God rebukes Sennacherib, king of Assyria, for his insolence and comforts king Hezekiah that all things are governed by his divine providence. What say you?

I think this can be fairly easily resolved by simply noting that certain things could be decided by God beforehand and certain things not. It doesn't have to be either / or.

The verse in question does not imply that ALL things are predetermined. It simply notes that God planned a certain event 'from the days of old'.

In the text above, you have said that 'all things are governed by his divine providence', but that's not the same as saying all things are predetermined.

renniks · Mar 24, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
It will be. That is as certain as night follows day.

I agree. In the new Earth, it will always be done.

SoldierOfTheKing · Mar 24, 2020

Neogaia777 said:
And what exactly do you mean by "decreeing" anyway...?

And is it equivalent with words like "created" or "creating", or "authoring" or "purposing", etc, again, enough of this play on words Babylonian garbage, OK, what exactly do you mean by "decreeing", etc...?

God Bless!

There is that which God decrees by commission and that which God decrees by permission...

BobRyan · Mar 24, 2020

Jonaitis said:
"From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree. In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree."

- Chapter 3, Section 1, Second London Baptist Confession of 1689

Do you agree with this statement? Please provide Scripture to support your answer.

God sovereignly decreed free will (no one forced Him to choose to do that)-- and that put the level of indirection needed to disconnect God from having blame for any act of evil that would arise. Thus "He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11 puts none of the blame on God - who is the first-actor the first motivator the one who took the initiative.

Hazelelponi · Mar 24, 2020

zoidar said:
*deleted*

Why?

zoidar · Mar 24, 2020

Hazelelponi said:
Why?

Because I felt it would lead to unnecessary discussion.

I mean what is the use if I believe God decrees everything or not. What God do decrees will surley take place

What I do miss is going to church on weekdays, since everything is closed

. Sorry for OT.

ForTheKingdom · Mar 24, 2020

I don't usually debate these things as they're been debated about for centuries!

I can, however, tell you what encouraged me a couple of days ago when I downloaded the SermonIndex app and saw a message "Who Controls The Coronavirus?". I listened to the whole message, though the scripture he read in the first couple of minutes was enough to encourage me.

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (Colossians 1:16-17)

For the future, there is

And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled. (Revelation 17:16)

These show, to me, that God is in overall control. All things will come around to the conclusion He has already foreordained. He already made a way for us, even before we were created. Jesus is the

...Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (Revelation 13:8)

renniks · Mar 24, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
Agree. God is entirely sovereign and man is entirely responsible. No, I don't know how to reconcile the two

And what do you mean by sovereign? Because I find that people mean various things by using that word. This is classic compatabalism, some claim that everything is predestined and yet man is free. If that's what you mean, I disagree. If you merely mean God is in charge, but not meticulously controlling all actions, I agree.

Aussie Pete · Mar 24, 2020

renniks said:
And what do you mean by sovereign? Because I find that people mean various things by using that word. This is classic compatabalism, some claim that everything is predestined and yet man is free. If that's what you mean, I disagree. If you merely mean God is in charge, but not meticulously controlling all actions, I agree.

God is in absolute control. My life prior to my salvation has God's fingerprints all over it. Obviously I was not aware of it then. I don't know how it works. All I know is that God is entirely sovereign and man is entirely responsible. I gave up trying to second guess God decades ago.

martymonster · Mar 25, 2020

Jonaitis said:
"From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree. In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree."

- Chapter 3, Section 1, Second London Baptist Confession of 1689

Do you agree with this statement? Please provide Scripture to support your answer.

What you've just stated there, is square circles.

Mark Quayle · Mar 25, 2020

Jonaitis said:
"From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree. In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree."

- Chapter 3, Section 1, Second London Baptist Confession of 1689

Do you agree with this statement? Please provide Scripture to support your answer.

Yep. All of Scripture supports that statement. And so begins a good concept of the nature of God. I like to say he is a quantum order above us in existence / life, as this life is a vapor compared to heaven, so are we compared to him.

Nehemiah 9:6
"You alone are the LORD You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them You give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will . . .

Colossians 1:16, 17
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

And a Bible-full of others.

renniks said:
No, and I would have to quote about half the Bible. But it's enough that Jesus told us to pray God's will be done here as it is in heaven. God's will is therefore not always done on this Earth.

"God's will" can reasonably be of two different kinds. His command is not the same as his plan.

Mark Quayle · Mar 25, 2020

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) said:
I don't agree with that whatsoever. IE: God coming after Adam and Eve in the garden after their fall.

"fellowship with them in their sin" is referring to condoning their sin.

Mark Quayle · Mar 25, 2020

Jonaitis said:
Well, I would lose your attention (or that of the reader in this thread) if I were to lay out the whole book Isaiah, or this whole circumstance in a single post. I personally find lengthy posts discouraging for retaining people's attention. If you can make your point short and clear you will likely have my response.

Now, your answer is confusing. God decided what he would do based on something he already knew? Why would he do that? The quote doesn't say that I knew what you would do, so I determined how I would act. Rather, he says that he already determined and planned ahead what he is bringing to pass, (and specifically) using Sennacherib as an instrument of destruction. What here, say you, did he see for him to do this? It is circular thinking.

I know the accusation that if God ordained all things, directing them to occur at their proper time, that he would be responsible. However, I just showed you a verse where he clearly says that he ordained and carried out this destructive work in the king of Assyria. He directed in some sovereign way, read the verse again! However, there is no evil with God.

God may use second causes and other variables to direct free-working agents (humans) to act, freely of their own accord, freely from their own desires, that which he wants to occur without having a hand in the act itself. He didn't need to do anything to Job, Satan was already part of the plan. He didn't need to force Joseph to be a slave in Egypt, his brothers played the roles in their perfectly ordained circumstances to commit this wicked act. He had no fellowship with any in their sinning, but he directed them in the things around them that had an influence on what they would do themselves. His brothers willfully, freely and independently sold him from their own wickedness, but God ordained the means for all this to happen for a greater purpose in mind.

Well said, brother.

Mark Quayle · Mar 25, 2020

martymonster said:
What you've just stated there, is square circles.

Explain how that is square circles, please.

renniks · Mar 25, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Yep. All of Scripture supports that statement. And so begins a good concept of the nature of God. I like to say he is a quantum order above us in existence / life, as this life is a vapor compared to heaven, so are we compared to him.

Nehemiah 9:6
"You alone are the LORD You have made the heavens, The heaven of heavens with all their host, The earth and all that is on it, The seas and all that is in them You give life to all of them And the heavenly host bows down before You.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will . . .

Colossians 1:16, 17
For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

And a Bible-full of others.

"God's will" can reasonably be of two different kinds. His command is not the same as his plan.

None of those scriptures support the statement that everything is decreed by God.

Hammster · Mar 25, 2020

Jonaitis said:
"From all eternity God decreed everything that occurs, without reference to anything outside himself. He did this by the perfectly wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably. Yet God did this in such a way that he is neither the author of sin nor has fellowship with any in their sin. This decree does not violate the will of the creature or take away the free working or contingency of second causes. On the contrary, these are established by God’s decree. In this decree God’s wisdom is displayed in directing all things, and his power and faithfulness are demonstrated in accomplishing his decree."

- Chapter 3, Section 1, Second London Baptist Confession of 1689

Do you agree with this statement? Please provide Scripture to support your answer.

Agree.

In the day of prosperity be happy,
But in the day of adversity consider⁠—
God has made the one as well as the other
So that man will not discover anything that will be after him.
— Ecclesiastes 7:14

martymonster · Mar 25, 2020

Mark Quayle said:
Explain how that is square circles, please.

You can't claim that God is responsible for everything and then in the next breath claim that he's not responsible for everything. You can't say that God has everything planned out and yet that he has no control over anyone. That's an A grade contradiction. So, in God we live and move and have our being, but he has no control over anything we do? Rrriiiiiiiigggghhhhhttttt.....

Mark Quayle · Mar 25, 2020

martymonster said:
You can't claim that God is responsible for everything and then in the next breath claim that he's not responsible for everything. You can't say that God has everything planned out and yet that he has no control over anyone. That's an A grade contradiction. So, in God we live and move and have our being, but he has no control over anything we do? Rrriiiiiiiigggghhhhhttttt.....

So show where in the Second London Baptist Confession of 1689 God is said to be responsible for everything and then where it is said by the same person that he is not responsible for everything.

And where does it say he has no control over anyone?

Jonaitis · Mar 29, 2020

renniks said:
Lol, did you really read what you wrote here? If I use others to bring about evil actions, I'm somehow not to blame for that evil? Total nonsense . Besides, it's a contradiction to say some one freely acts if God is directing thier every action. What you would have is only the illusion of freedom, but in reality, robots.

Renniks,

I haven't said anything different than what Isaiah 37:26-27 affirms and maintains, unless you can find a better explanation?

God's Decree

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