The fatal flaw of Universalism

Saint Steven said:

....
One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

Click to expand...

St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).
Any questions?

Click to expand...

I got curious about the Nestle "quote" so I decided to search for it and I found the book at "Internet Archive." Maybe you can help me out. I did a word search and could not find the quote. Here is a quote from page 113. You might have trouble searching, the entire book is in German. Good luck
FYI I searched in German. Since the "quote" from Nestle does not seem to exist that casts considerable doubt on the Jerome quote.
A word of advice when quoting 2d-3d hand quotes you should research them and make sure they actually said what you quoted. Sometimes folks deliberately misquote so-called experts to further their false teachings.

FineLinen said:

Ta panta is the strongest word for God's ultimate ends for all of creation. He is the Beginning, He is the Ending.

The fact is, the Restitution of the all is God's ultimate answer to sin, and separation from Him as a result, not of our sins only, but being born into Adam1 .

Adam1 = "many made sinners"

Last Adam = "many made righteous"

Every last one!

Click to expand...

Ta Panta is actually a greek term for all. There is a distinct difference between all and all in Koine

frogface62 said:

Ta Panta is actually a greek term for all. There is a distinct difference between all and all in Koine

Click to expand...

Dear Frog: Pas = the radical all.

Ta pante = the all.

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta pante) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

Romans 11:36=

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down, down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

FineLinen said:

Dear Frog: Pas = the radical all.

Ta pante = the all.

By these three prepositions Paul ascribes the universe (ta pante) with all the phenomena concerning creation, redemption, providence to God as the…

Ex= The Source

Di= The Agent

Eiv= The Goal

The Koine, ta pavnte, is the strongest word for all in the Scriptures; it literally means the all.

Romans 11:36=

ta pavnte/ ta panta, “in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the all things, the universe, and, everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.”

**It is not in the limited sense of “nearly all”, “pavnte” minus “ta”

The final preposition [eiv) reveals the ultimate goal of all that is. What has been provided in Christ is a re-turn, a re-storation, a re-newing, a re-demption, a re-concilation, a re-surrection, a re-stitution.

The prefix “re” means back again, again, anew–and all the words with this prefix speak of something that left its place and has now made its circuit and come back to the point of its beginning.

In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. -C.S. Lewis

Click to expand...

What preposition family does Eiv come under?

EIV = eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration unto/ into to a particular purpose or result.

God IS the Source, Guide, Goal of the all/ ta pante.

FineLinen said:

EIV = eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration unto/ into to a particular purpose or result.

God IS the Source, Guide, Goal of the all/ ta pante.

Click to expand...

I am very familiar with the preposition eis. Never saw it presented as EIV. I am very familiar with Koine Greek as well. I did find Eiv on the net Bible site. Interesting

FineLinen said:

EIV = eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration unto/ into to a particular purpose or result.

God IS the Source, Guide, Goal of the all/ ta pante.

Click to expand...

In your opinion, what role does the preposition eis play in the Doctrine of Universalism?

FineLinen said:

EIV = eis (a preposition) – properly, into (unto) – literally, "motion into which" implying penetration unto/ into to a particular purpose or result.

God IS the Source, Guide, Goal of the all/ ta pante.

Click to expand...

So far I have seen these cursory posts with no objective evidence. To sell me on Universalism it would seem as if you would provide that evicdence

frogface62 said:

In your opinion, what role does the preposition eis play in the Doctrine of Universalism?

Click to expand...

Dear Frog: My opinion matters zilch. The Apostle St. Paul, upon whose mighty words ta pante stands, is the foundation of ta pante. Then we must consider what the prophets & sages have declared in no uncertain terms.

The Restitution of ta pante is a mystery, it is hidden within the Author & Finisher of the all, ready to break upon us in His good pleasure. Go to your nearest closet and speak with Him!

ALEXANDER THOMSON: The Meaning of Ta Panta

FineLinen said:

...

Click to expand...

FineLinen said:

Dear Frog: My opinion matters zilch. The Apostle St. Paul, upon whose mighty words ta pante stands, is the foundation of ta pante. Then we must consider what the prophets & sages have declared in no uncertain terms.
The Restitution of ta pante is a mystery, it is hidden within the Author & Finisher of the all, ready to break upon us in His good pleasure. Go to your nearest closet and speak with Him!...

Click to expand...

The UR crowd is quick to quote Paul when something he wrote seems to support their UR assumptions/presuppositions but ignore the Pauline verses which contradict them.
When Paul wrote to the church at Colossae did he get amnesia and forget what he wrote to the churches at Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus or vice versa?

frogface62 said:

I do understand that Universalism comes in many shapes and sizes. Mormons are just one of those. Unitarians are another.

Click to expand...

Yes, sorry I forgot you were actually asking Jord the original question. Haven't heard from him for a while, but then I've been 'on a sabbatical' recently myself. There's a few of us on CF who believe in UR (maybe 10?), but to my knowledge none are Mormons/ LDS. I'd be surprised if Jord is. But he's Dutch, so who knows? Joking!

I remember when I discovered the great revelation of UR, and rushed it to the congregation of my then little Baptist Church as the theology of the good news. I was met with frosty looks, and one brother told me it was what the Jehovah's Witnesses believed, conveying apparently some kind of Christian insult lol. Anyway, the response was a little surprising and disheartening to me a recent convert from atheism/ agnosticism, but the more I studied, the more I found to support this doctrine, the 'larger hope', the true faith...imho.

frogface62 said:

I believe is that eternal separation from God is eternal punishment. I do not believe that Universalism is supported on any level in The good Book. Maybe the book of mormon which I do not embrace as inspired.

Click to expand...

Yes, the 'eternal separation' idea is very popular today, a kind of politically correct watered-down version of the good ol' eternal bbq. As though He just lets the lost wander off into the darkness, never to be seen again.

I presume your main proof text is 2 Thess 1:9?

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Did you know, however, that this is a mistranslation? In the original Greek it is the presence of the Lord that destroys, not separates.

Certainly during the Tribulation men hide in their mountains and under rocks, and the heaven and earth flee from His presence, but that's not the end of the story.

So destruction of the sinner is due to God annihilating the sin, thereby transforming him into a new man in Christ. The punishments of God are restorative. He gives a Life Sentence.

Anyway, I could go on, but there's plenty of posts by others here such as Fine Linen, Saint Steven, Lazarus Short, Hillsage and Marty Monster, that can give you more insight into the abundant scriptural basis for the truth and beauty of God's plan to restore all creation in Christ.

So do you believe Jesus came to save the world from the power of sin and death? And if so, does he succeed? What does the total victory of Christ look like to you, Frogface?

Shrewd Manager said:

... So destruction of the sinner is due to God annihilating the sin, thereby transforming him into a new man in Christ. The punishments of God are restorative. He gives a Life Sentence. ...

Click to expand...

I love this OT scriptural description of the wrath of God. @frogface62

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.

frogface62 said:

I am very familiar with the preposition eis. Never saw it presented as EIV. I am very familiar with Koine Greek as well. I did find Eiv on the net Bible site. Interesting

Click to expand...

Dear Frog: Since you are very familiar with koine Greek, you should know the scope of ta pavnte.

#1 -Rom. 11:36

"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists and in Him everything ends."

Ta pavnte= the all things.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming. From Him ta pavnte comes, through Him ta pavnte exists, and in Him ta pavnte ends.

#2. -Eph. 1:-

"He has made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him. And you too, who in Him were made heirs, having been chosen beforehand in accordance with the intention of Him whose might carries out in everything the design of His own will."

The all things in the heavens, the all things in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one, the ta pavnte en/in Christ.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

#3 -Col. 1:20

"God purposed through Him to reconcile the universe to Himself, making peace through His blood...to reconcile to Himself through Him, I say, things on earth and things in heaven. And you..."

The all things (the ta pavnte) in the heavens, the all things (the ta pavnte) in the earth, and you who once were dead in trespasses and sins. God has purposed to reconcile the universe (the ta pavnte) to Himself. The ta pavnte/ the all, encompasses the ta pavnte on the earth and the ta pavnte in the heavens. The ta pavnte= the all, the whole enchilada.

Ta pavnte = in the absolute sense of the whole of creation, the universe. Of everything in heaven and earth that is in need of uniting and redeeming.

Der Alter said:

The UR crowd is quick to quote Paul when something he wrote seems to support their UR assumptions/presuppositions but ignore the Pauline verses which contradict them.
When Paul wrote to the church at Colossae did he get amnesia and forget what he wrote to the churches at Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus or vice versa?

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind or vice versa,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Galatians 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.​

Click to expand...

That's a good roundup of Pauline caveats, thanks der Alter. So the question is, how do we square these teachings with his apparent pro-UR statements? The answer: we give them all full credit. Of course these types of sinners won't inherit, they'll need to be washed, sanctified and justified in Christ first. And tormented will they be in God's pure burning love should they stubbornly hold to their sins, their false identities. Something's gotta give, der Alter. And who'll win, the spoilt child who leaves the house all huffy for not getting his way, or the loving father who sits in the house with the food and drink, puffing his pipe and waiting patiently for the kid to simmer down and return?

So how do you reconcile Paul's great 'ta panta' sayings with these teachings? I suggest you can only make them fit by compromising on the absolutism of God. But with Him there is no partiality.

Shrewd Manager said:

....

Click to expand...

>SM>That's a good roundup of Pauline caveats, thanks der Alter. So the question is, how do we square these teachings with his apparent pro-UR statements? The answer: we give them all full credit. Of course these types of sinners won't inherit, they'll need to be washed, sanctified and justified in Christ first. And tormented will they be in God's pure burning love should they stubbornly hold to their sins, their false identities. Something's gotta give, der Alter. And who'll win, the spoilt child who leaves the house all huffy for not getting his way, or the loving father who sits in the house with the food and drink, puffing his pipe and waiting patiently for the kid to simmer down and return?

...

Click to expand...

Pie in the sky by and by Kuymbaya. Paul NEVER says any of this in red. In fact, there is not one single scripture which unequivocally states any of this. This is concocted, imagined by UR-ites to make scripture support their UR doctrine while they totally ignore Paul lists several groups of people in 4 different passages and he says at least 3 times. "They have no inheritance in heaven." Paul gave no hint that they would be cleansed after death. Did Paul have amnesia when he wrote to Colossae and forgot what He wrote to Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus or vice versa?

So how do you reconcile Paul's great 'ta panta' sayings with these teachings? I suggest you can only make them fit by compromising on the absolutism of God. But with Him there is no partiality.

Click to expand...

How do I reconcile Paul's "ta panta?" by reading ALL scripture instead of a only handful of out-of-context proof texts.
Wrong! Jesus is the savior of the whole world but the whole world does not want to be saved. So, according to UR-ites, God will throw them into the lake of fire, punish them for a while then force them to believe in Him. Or scenario #2 the unrighteous in the lake of fire being tormented will suddenly start loving God. But alas no scripture says this. In fact Jesus says just the opposite.

they'll need to be washed, sanctified and justified in Christ first. And tormented will they be in God's pure burning love should they stubbornly hold to their sins, their false identities.

Der Alter said:

Pie in the sky by and by Kuymbaya. Paul NEVER says any of this in red. In fact, there is not one single scripture which unequivocally states any of this.

Click to expand...

He did indeed, and in the scripture you quoted:

And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor 6:11)

Oh Lord Kumbaya. Do try to keep up, der Alter.

Der Alter said:

They have no inheritance in heaven." Paul gave no hint that they would be cleansed after death. Did Paul have amnesia when he wrote to Colossae and forgot what He wrote to Corinth, Galatia and Ephesus or vice versa?

Click to expand...

By no means! He was just in a better mood some days. But seriously, Paul's big on UR, for example Jesus is the saviour or all especially those who believe, every knee will bow, every tongue confess, and God will be all in all. And so on and so forth. That means the list of reprobates must get saved and repaired.

Der Alter said:

Wrong! Jesus is the savior of the whole world but the whole world does not want to be saved.

Click to expand...

You are surely very perceptive der Alter. But what is the 'not wanting to be saved' if not 'choosing death'? So these are slaves to sin, captivated by their sin, prisoners of Babylon. And this activates Christ, who came not to judge but to save the world from perishing in sin, to proclaim release of the captives, free the slaves and raise the dead to life. So these sinners are subject of God's grace, whether or not they know it, in their unreconciled state they are being hardened so that God may have mercy on them, and in doing so change their hearts and bring forth repentance. Praise the Lord, for miracles are commonplace in His Kingdom.

Shrewd Manager said:

...

Click to expand...

>SM>they'll need to be washed, sanctified and justified in Christ first. And tormented will they be in God's pure burning love should they stubbornly hold to their sins, their false identities.
He did indeed, and in the scripture you quoted:
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor 6:11)
Oh Lord Kumbaya. Do try to keep up, der Alter....<SM<[/QUOTE]
No you try to keep up! This is the usual UR pie in the sky by and by evasion. 1 Cor 6:11 is addressed to and only includes the saved in the church at Corinth it does NOT include the unrighteous Paul just mentioned in vs, 9-10 whom Paul clearly excluded by saying "and such were some of you."
Does "shall NOT inherit the kingdom of God" mean "someday by and by an inheritance" in UR speak?

The glorious "fatal flaw (s)" of our Lord continue.

Evil from the Lord -Michael Killian-

“All men will be saved. But God isn’t trying to redeem everyone in this age, only that chosen generation that Paul spoke of.

Believing that the evil in this world has its purpose for good will bring much peace to your heart. And then to realize that God in someway, somehow, will eventually use evil to bring about good for everyone, will further add to your peace.

As this revelation of the Prince of Peace is unfolded to your turbulent, battle-weary heart, you will start to more continuously abide in His love.

God not only ‘allows’ evil in this present world, but rather ordains it. No more, and no less evil than God Himself determines, will happen to anyone during any certain day.”

Justification -Donald G. Hayter-

“Although God introduced sin through the agency of His creatures, yet He did not sin in so doing. For it was no mistake, no failure of His. It was in accord with His intention, and it will be justified by the beneficial results obtained through its agency. In the brilliant glory of His ultimate the most somber and gloomy features of earth’s history are transformed into a brilliant display of His power and wisdom and love.

During the final eons every creature in the heavens and on the earth and under the earth will have learned of the sufferings of the Christ, and of the depths of the Father’s love revealed in them, and every knee will bow to Him Who died, acclaiming Him Lord, for the glory of God the Father. Thus will all ultimately be justified.”