Forgiveness must come from the victim

cloudyday2 said:

I am curious if this idea works from a Christian and non-Christian perspective.

The common explanation of salvation through Jesus has some shortcomings. Let's say somebody sins against me, but that person seeks salvation through Jesus and goes unpunished. It seems like an injustice to me.

Here is my solution: the crucifixion is an example of forgiveness rather than justice. I can either forgive the person who sins against me or not. If I do not forgive the person then God will punish him appropriately on my behalf even if he is a Christian. But I will become aware of my own pettiness after death and ultimately forgive the person who sinned against me to follow the example of Jesus.

In a nutshell, Jesus cannot forgive people for their sins against other people, but he can set an example of forgiveness.

Sorry if I haven't explained it clearly. Maybe if people will ask questions on areas of confusion I can clarify.

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It sounds weird.

Jesus doesn't simply forgive, though. He covers sin with his blood. When he suffered and died on behalf of sinners, his suffering and death has become their suffering and death without them participating in it. This union between the Savior and the sinner is as one, where one suffers the harm for another while the other enjoys the good from the other.

The cross was a display of both justice and mercy.

We must remember that God isn't our "buddy" or "pal." He is absolutely holy. The demands for justice must be met. Jesus who comes to satisfy the injury to God's name, does so as one who appeases God and saves men. He is the Mediator between the two hostile parties. It is in this work where forgiveness is even possible.

However, if someone injures you, he will give an account for it and will be dealt with in some way. The Christian does experience discipline in this life for sins committed against another, and God will make it plain to them. However, their sins ultimately have already been dealt with once and for all at the cross. It would be injustice for God to add anything beyond it! Jesus had already covered (atoned) for their sin, he cannot uncover one more. He has satisfied the whole wrath of God in their place, no more to be under it.

In simple terms, God doesn't play double jeopardy.

cloudyday2 said:

Doesn't the Bible say "every knee shall bow to Jesus" (paraphrasing)? Part of that would be to fully appreciate the example of forgiveness given by Jesus, and that forgiveness would be contagious.

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That really sounds like a 'fluff' statement...

The Apostles were given the Authority to forgive or retain...

cloudyday2 said:

Not in a system of law and order. The government punishes crimes.

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But even if you do forgive a person for breaking into your house and steals things, the Government will still try and punish the person you have already forgiven, is there justice in that?

cloudyday2 said:

Because God is the government of the universe. I am not saying that some human government will throw him in jail. I am saying that God must throw him in hell, because I refuse to forgive him.

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I look at it this way, someone sins against you, God has place forgiveness at our doorstep so to speak, if you refuse to forgive that person, then God cannot forgive that person either until you do.

When we all come to the day of Judgment, God will ask you if you ever forgave that person his sin against you, if you say no, then he will be punished with few stripes for his sin, but you will be punished with many stripes because you did not have compassion on a fellow human and retained his sin, therefore his sin against you has become your sin against him, when if you had forgiven his sin you both would have received freedom from sin, but now because of you, both you and him must receive punishment.

Forgive that ye may be forgiven, if you do not forgive those who have trespassed against you your sins also will not be forgiven you, and your prayers will be hindered.

That is a harsh life to live because of un-forgiveness.

cloudyday2 said:

I am curious if this idea works from a Christian and non-Christian perspective.

The common explanation of salvation through Jesus has some shortcomings. Let's say somebody sins against me, but that person seeks salvation through Jesus and goes unpunished. It seems like an injustice to me.

Here is my solution: the crucifixion is an example of forgiveness rather than justice. I can either forgive the person who sins against me or not. If I do not forgive the person then God will punish him appropriately on my behalf even if he is a Christian. But I will become aware of my own pettiness after death and ultimately forgive the person who sinned against me to follow the example of Jesus.

In a nutshell, Jesus cannot forgive people for their sins against other people, but he can set an example of forgiveness.

Sorry if I haven't explained it clearly. Maybe if people will ask questions on areas of confusion I can clarify.

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Sorry, but the gospel you're talking about is not the Gospel of Christ.

The true Gospel requires Christians to repent, without which, they cannot receive salvation.

True repentance requires retribution, otherwise, it's just a pretense.

The story of Zacchaeus exemplifies this required principle. (Luke 19:1-10)

Anyone preaching that repentance does not require retribution of offenses, is not preaching the Gospel of Christ.

Religiot said:

Sorry, but the gospel you're talking about is not the Gospel of Christ.

The true Gospel requires Christians to repent, without which, they cannot receive salvation.

True repentance requires retribution, otherwise, it's just a pretense.

The story of Zacchaeus exemplifies this required principle. (Luke 19:1-10)

Anyone preaching that repentance does not require retribution of offenses, is not preaching the Gospel of Christ.

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Zacchaeus was boasting how he was keeping the law even though he was a sinner.

It sounds like your saying that even though a person was saved, there would still be retribution needed.

Religiot said:

True repentance requires retribution, otherwise, it's just a pretense.

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True repentance requires a 180 degree turn from the sin, and to cease from that sin evermore. ...Period

cloudyday2 said:

The common explanation of salvation through Jesus has some shortcomings. Let's say somebody sins against me, but that person seeks salvation through Jesus and goes unpunished. It seems like an injustice to me.

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This is not a shortcoming, it is a misunderstanding of forgiveness and justice, as is your alternate "explaination"

cloudyday2 said:

To me, the parable means that in the Kingdom of Heaven people will be paid simply because they need a paycheck rather than as an incentive or reward for work.

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They all had to do work. So that can't be exactly right. I would say that no matter how much or little work they did everyone got the same pay. Perhaps being called to do the work and being willing to accept that call is all that mattered? The time they put in was irrelevant.

JIMINZ said:

Zacchaeus was boasting how he was keeping the law even though he was a sinner.

It sounds like your saying that even though a person was saved, there would still be retribution needed.

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Brother, if you actually read the account of Zacchaeus, you'll find that you actually have it backward.

JIMINZ said:

True repentance requires a 180 degree turn from the sin, and to cease from that sin evermore. ...Period

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Brother, the following question ought to demonstrate the simple truth of what I'm saying the bible says:

If I robbed you tonight, but then a month later I became Christian, am I required now, as a Christian, to return your property?

Religiot said:

Brother, the following question ought to demonstrate the simple truth of what I'm saying the bible says:

If I robbed you tonight, but then a month later I became Christian, am I required now, as a Christian, to return your property?

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No, but out of guilt you might do it on your own.
A person like you are describing I believe would feel Condemnation for his actions being a New Christian.

JIMINZ said:

No, but out of guilt you might do it on your own.
A person like you are describing I believe would feel Condemnation for his actions being a New Christian.

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Your answer is incredible.

You think the Cross of Christ is a license for sin.

Your perverted view of repentance causes you to imagine that God is okay with me talking on a phone I stole from you, while driving a car I bought with money I stole from you, while wearing the watch I stole from you, etc... ...You don't know the Gospel! and you had better repent from the false gospel that you are preaching, otherwise, I will see you on that great day, and ask you why you thought that my God was okay with your version of repentance.

It is perversion like this, that gives the heathen cause to blaspheme and mock God.

Repent of this perversion, before you cannot!

grasping the after wind said:

Then why did you not say the government will punish him appropriately instead of saying God will punish him appropriately?

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Somehow I have a very hard problem connecting Human judgments with that of a Loving God as if they hold equal value.

Religiot said:

Your answer is incredible.

You think the Cross of Christ is a license for sin.

Your perverted view of repentance causes you to imagine that God is okay with me talking on a phone I stole from you, while driving a car I bought with money I stole from you, while wearing the watch I stole from you, etc... ...You don't know the Gospel! and you had better repent from the false gospel that you are preaching, otherwise, I will see you on that great day, and ask you why you thought that my God was okay with your version of repentance.

It is perversion like this, that gives the heathen cause to blaspheme and mock God.

Repent of this perversion, before you cannot!

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I think maybe you should repent of your anger directed at me, and of your overall judgment.

That doesn't look good on a Christian to towards a Brother.

I'm not sure if you are allowed on this Forum to say all of the nasty things you have said, but I Forgive you your sin anyway.

cloudyday2 said:

I think it is a parable about grace. The pay is essentially a gift unrelated to performance. Normally an employer pays an employee primarily to maximize profit.

The parable might be used to support the idea that salvation is entirely an act of mercy or grace.

Also the parable seems important to remember in this crumbling economy.

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Other than for those few jobs that must be done and therefore have inelastic demand, where the supply of labor is so plentiful that it would end up making the labor worth less than the minimum wage , supply and demand determines rate of pay an employer pays an employee and not maximization of profit.