No ventilators for those over the age of 60

So. If the pope gets infected, will the Italians let him die? Or will he refuse treatment?

Hazelelponi said:

Ahh... that will teach me to trust the New York Times...

Thanks for the correction.

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It might have been a typo on their part: 500 versus 5000.

Hazelelponi said:

Ahh... that will teach me to trust the New York Times...

Thanks for the correction.

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I'm getting the hang of this correction business. I am now going to correct myself. According to a Sky News report from two days ago "The NHS said last week that they have a total of 8,175 respirators currently with more being made available to medics every day."

The same report quotes one vacuum cleaner manufacturer who is gearing up for ventilator manufacture, as saying they will shortly be able to manufacture 1,000/day.

Ophiolite said:

I'm getting the hang of this correction business. I am now going to correct myself. According to a Sky News report from two days ago "The NHS said last week that they have a total of 8,175 respirators currently with more being made available to medics every day."

The same report quotes one vacuum cleaner manufacturer who is gearing up for ventilator manufacture, as saying they will shortly be able to manufacture 1,000/day.

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Okay... thanks for that research!

pitabread said:

I've notice there seems to be a curious uptick in "don't believe the media" rhetoric lately. What's up with that?

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See "Trump colluded with Russia".

You know, with these new numbers for GB, it now makes me wonder the veracity of this article then.

Because if Italy has 4 or 5 thousand ventilators, then they have enough for all those in critical or serious condition as that number is at 3200 aprox. As of today.

I know a few days back it was reported that officials in Italy weren't allowing people out of the quarantine zone, not even for necessary medical treatment with the exception of 13 individuals at that time.

So perhaps they are still forcing those 2 hospitals within the quarantine zone take the brunt of the crisis...

If so, it's more a reflection on the Italian government than it is a reflection on their ability at current moment to manage the crisis.

I think people should be upset if they could go to another area for medical treatment and are being refused out of fear... I wouldn't want that to occur here at all, ever. If we have ill in New York, for instance and their medical system is overran, then I would fully expect to start moving patients out of state if need be.

Sketcher said:

So. If the pope gets infected, will the Italians let him die? Or will he refuse treatment?

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Why should he be any different?

High Fidelity said:

Why should he be any different?

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They're Italians. And it's the pope. Not an Italian pope, but still it's the pope. If there's an exception to be made on this, I would expect them to make it with him.

Sketcher said:

They're Italians. And it's the pope. Not an Italian pope, but still it's the pope. If there's an exception to be made on this, I would expect them to make it with him.

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I certainly wouldn't be happy if my relative went without a ventilator because of someone getting special treatment.

Considering how many world leaders are 60 & over that's seriously a stupid attitude to have.

Andrewn said:

This would explain the enormous death rate in Italy. It's people over 60 who are most vulnerable to COVID-19. Not helping them is equivalent to closing hospitals!!!

Only in Italy!

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To be clear, everyone seems to be equally "vulnerable" to COVID-19. The difference is that younger people (typically those below 70) don't typically die with proper treatment. Apparently, though -- from what I am seeing -- young adults are just as liable to have a severe case as older people, just that it is the older people (or those with compromised immune systems) who die from a severe case.

At the same time, even for young people it is a matter of concern, as that severe case frequently results in permanent lung damage.

High Fidelity said:

Why should he be any different?

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The pope lives in the Vatican, it is an independent nation, surrounded by Italy so the rules in the Vatican would be different. I would like to think the Pope would forego the ventilator, if it meant that someone else must die. better yet i hope he understand the healing power of God, and can pass out the miracles like jesus did.

Hazelelponi said:

Because if Italy has 4 or 5 thousand ventilators, then they have enough for all those in critical or serious condition as that number is at 3200 aprox. As of today. I know a few days back it was reported that officials in Italy weren't allowing people out of the quarantine zone, not even for necessary medical treatment with the exception of 13 individuals at that time. So perhaps they are still forcing those 2 hospitals within the quarantine zone take the brunt of the crisis... If so, it's more a reflection on the Italian government than it is a reflection on their ability at current moment to manage the crisis.

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The population of China is 1409 million and there have been 3277 deaths.
The population of Italy is only 60 million and there have been 6077 deaths.

Something is very wrong about the way they're handling the crisis in Italy.

About 50 inmates escaped from Italian prisons as the coronavirus triggered riots and brought the country's criminal-justice system to a halt

Did the criminals in Italy overrun hospitals?

Hazelelponi said:

We have 172,000 ventilators available in this country..

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And how many old people do you have?

Andrewn said:

The population of China is 1409 million and there have been 3277 deaths.
The population of Italy is only 60 million and there have been 6077 deaths.

Something is very wrong about the way they're handling the crisis in Italy.

About 50 inmates escaped from Italian prisons as the coronavirus triggered riots and brought the country's criminal-justice system to a halt

Do the criminals in Italy overrun hospitals?

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You trust Chinese official numbers?

Andrewn said:

The population of China is 1409 million and there have been 3277 deaths.
The population of Italy is only 60 million and there have been 6077 deaths.

Something is very wrong about the way they're handling the crisis in Italy.

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China has demonstrated the strength of an absolute dictatorship and of a population accustomed to dictatorial control. Italy has demonstrated the weakness of a democracy and a mind set focused on "freedoms".

Future historians will reflect that it was in the year 2020 AD that eventual global mastery was handed to the Chinese by the failure of America to act as a world leader. Have your grand children learn Mandarin now and their grandchildren may have a future.

Note: I am expressing what I suspect to be the case, not what I would like to be the case.

solid_core said:

You trust Chinese official numbers?

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On the approximate number of deaths? Yes.

sfs said:

On the approximate number of deaths? Yes.

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Your choice. You can in the same time trust Iranian stats or stats from Africa.

Andrewn said:

The population of China is 1409 million and there have been 3277 deaths.
The population of Italy is only 60 million and there have been 6077 deaths.

Something is very wrong about the way they're handling the crisis in Italy.

About 50 inmates escaped from Italian prisons as the coronavirus triggered riots and brought the country's criminal-justice system to a halt

Do the criminals in Italy overrun hospitals?

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Yeah there is something very wrong there overall. It's just difficult to determine what exactly is happening.

Right now (or at least as of yesterday) we are at a 1.3% mortality rate with this virus, although 13% who contract the disease are needing hospitalization, and 3.4% who contract it are requiring the use of ventilator equipment. But the mortality rate is still quite low.

South Korea has a very low mortality rate as well so Italy's mortality rate being above 6% is way off for most western nations... it's way off even for the percentage we see here needing a ventilator as even if we took everyone currently on a ventilator off and just let them die our morality rate wouldn't be as high as Italy's..

solid_core said:

Your choice. You can in the same time trust Iranian stats or stats from Africa.

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I do not have the same trust in either Iranian or African stats. The three situations are very different. The Chinese have worked closely with outsiders, including colleagues at the Harvard School of Public Health, while the Iranians have obviously been lying throughout.