Salvation for Jews in the Holocaust?

thomas_t said:

I agree with @Maria Billingsley when she writes against a sort of universalism that some people propose here.

But personally, I think it's it's a special case when it comes to the Jews. Jews are a minority persecuted by devout Christians through the ages. If Christians make hell real for them on earth, I think it would be unfair if God won't take that into consideration and treat them the same as anybody else, if they don't repent and turn to Jesus..
And the Bible does make a special case for the Jews in particular: Romans 11:26.
This would be only just, when you say parents are lable for their children's crimes.
So, if ever Christians commit crimes against Jews, God might have to pay a special price, I think.

In a sad and ironical way, even on this very board there are numerous persons claiming that they (ordinary non-Jews) are the true Jews and Jews as of today are merely pretenders... as if Hitler accidentally mistook the Jews for being Jews.

Best regards,
Thomas

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No one who truly belongs to Jesus will make a hell on earth for anyone.

Randy777 said:

What I see is "I don't know you". They will come before the Lord for judgment and Jesus will state, "I don't know you". That's what I see. As I stated before I have hope for the young and very young.

Jesus is the true vine. Every branch not in Him withers and dies. Such branches are gathered and thrown into the fire.

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True, but what if the divine fire works to destroy the unbelief and refine the dross, to deliver the former sinner as a new man transformed in Christ? A baptism of fire, as it were. You might be surprised by how much scriptural support there is for the view that God's judgments are ultimately restorative.

Shrewd Manager said:

True, but what if the divine fire works to destroy the unbelief and refine the dross, to deliver the former sinner as a new man transformed in Christ? A baptism of fire, as it were. You might be surprised by how much scriptural support there is for the view that God's judgments are ultimately restorative.

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Didn't work at Masada they perished. I would assume some of them cursed God in their ignorance and unbelief.

Rev 11 - 1260 days of testimony in Jerusalem. Killed and raised to life in front of the "whole" world. Those who believe and call on the Lord will become members of the body of Christ. Those that take joy in their deaths will believe the lie of the beast that follows so as to be condemned for they refuse to repent of their evil ways and do not believe God.

solid_core said:

The name "Jesus" simply means "Yahweh is salvation", so not so difficult for the OT Jews to believe in this name even before the person of Jesus was born.

They also got Jesus (in English Bibles translated as Joshua) who lead them into the promised land after Moses, so they had this physical image of the spiritual leading into spiritual land, too.

The elect ones from Israel got this simple wisdom, the rest was blinded and hardened.

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You should know that it is not simply the name, but the person that goes with the name. That they did ot know about back then. They did not know the person of the Messiah would have the Jehoshua ben Jusef

Francis Drake said:

As I said, Jesus was the God the Jews already believed in throughout the OT.
Jesus is the Rock that accompanied them when they fled Egypt.

There is no requirement that people knew Jesus's name.

They simply knew him as Jehovah, because that is who Jesus always was.

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The object of fatih in the OT was not trust in the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus for ones sins, this is true. But since Pentecost- No, one can be saved unless they place their full trust in the death, burial and physical resurrection as the only acceptable payment for their sins before God the Father! Israel was the wife of the Father in the OT. The Church is the bride of the Son in the NT! Yes they followed God- but now they must become part of the body of Christ! And they must accept Jesus(or whatever it is pronounced in whatever language) or they are lost.

I love to see the way Christian’s get all riled up when a Muslim or Mormon tells Christian’s they are wrong and what God really meant. And yet, Christians have no problem telling Jews that they are wrong and what God really means.

nolidad said:

The object of fatih in the OT was not trust in the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus for ones sins, this is true. But since Pentecost- No, one can be saved unless they place their full trust in the death, burial and physical resurrection as the only acceptable payment for their sins before God the Father!

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Scripturally untrue.
Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. He is the Jehovah God of the OT and it is He that believers worshiped, exactly the same as we worship today.

I was born again as a child after witnessing God's presence in my bedroom. He drew me with cords of love, and I gave myself to him. I was alone and in a non Christian family, and did not hear the gospel till my mid20s. Despite that, I heard God speak to me and give me revelations that much later I discovered were scriptural truths.
He told me that he lived in my heart not in buildings long before I heard that from a preacher.

My wife also had many heavenly visitations and visions as 3 year old, again in a non Christian family.

Matt18v1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus said we need to change and become like little children, not adults with perfect theology.

4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.

Understanding the truth of the cross is about a believer's walk in victory, not about getting born again.

Israel was the wife of the Father in the OT.

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Israel is the wife of Jehovah, who is Jesus, the God of the OT.
We are grafted into them as one body.

The Church is the bride of the Son in the NT! Yes they followed God- but now they must become part of the body of Christ! And they must accept Jesus(or whatever it is pronounced in whatever language) or they are lost.

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Religious nonsense

Francis Drake said:

Scripturally untrue.
Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. He is the Jehovah God of the OT and it is He that believers worshiped, exactly the same as we worship today.

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Well I await some biblical examples of OT saints trusting in the death and physical resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth for their sins! but no teh OT Jews do not worship teh same as the churtch does. A simple cursory read of teh Bible shows that!

Francis Drake said:

I was born again as a child after witnessing God's presence in my bedroom. He drew me with cords of love, and I gave myself to him. I was alone and in a non Christian family, and did not hear the gospel till my mid20s. Despite that, I heard God speak to me and give me revelations that much later I discovered were scriptural truths.
He told me that he lived in my heart not in buildings long before I heard that from a preacher.

My wife also had many heavenly visitations and visions as 3 year old, again in a non Christian family.

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If you did not trust that Jesus died, and physically rose from the dead, you may have had a true heavenly revelation, but you were not saved! Paul said He was set apart from Is mothers womb, but did not get saved until He was on the road to damascus as an adult.

Believers are the elect from the foundation of the world, but we get saved at the point in time we place our trust in the death and pphysical resurrection of Jesus for our sins. That is the only thing that allows one to be born again!

Francis Drake said:

Israel is the wife of Jehovah, who is Jesus, the God of the OT.
We are grafted into them as one body.

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This is bionically incorrect!

Israel is the wife of Jehovah the Father! The church is currently the espoused bride of Jesus! we do not wed the Bridegroom until after the rapture when we are in heaven!

Francis Drake said:

Religious nonsense

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I am saddened you think Gods Word is religious nonsense.

nolidad said:

You should know that it is not simply the name, but the person that goes with the name. That they did ot know about back then. They did not know the person of the Messiah would have the Jehoshua ben Jusef

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So what? You do not need to believe that Jesus was the son of Joseph to be saved.

And Joseph was not his real father, btw.

nolidad said:

Well I await some biblical examples of OT saints trusting in the death and physical resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth for their sins! but no teh OT Jews do not worship teh same as the churtch does.

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You're going to have an awful long wait then because I never said that.
This is what I actually said,
"Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. He is the Jehovah God of the OT and it is He that believers worshiped, exactly the same as we worship today".
"Exactly the same" is in reference to Jehovah, whom I seriously I hope you worship because Jesus is Jehovah.

If you did not trust that Jesus died, and physically rose from the dead, you may have had a true heavenly revelation, but you were not saved!

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That's truly astonishing arrogance to tell me that I wasn't saved when I clearly knew the Lord and received amazing revelations from the Holy Spirit.
But I also noticed you completely skipped over this scripture I posted.
Matt18v1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus said nothing about knowing your theology, did he. All Jesus required to enter Heaven was to become like a child before his daddy, his heavenly daddy. What's so difficult about that?

4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.
I was that child. When the Lord came to me, I surrendered to his incredible and tangible love. And you have the gall to tell me that I wasn't saved.

Believers are the elect from the foundation of the world, but we get saved at the point in time we place our trust in the death and pphysical resurrection of Jesus for our sins. That is the only thing that allows one to be born again!

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Despite everyone doing so, it is a logical fallacy to maintain that the unregenerate get born again by claiming to trust in Jesus's death on the cross!
Scripture totally denies that possibility!
1Cor1v18(a) For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing...………...………………..
Do you understand the logic of this verse? Those who are perishing refers to the unregenerate, those not yet born again.
If the cross is foolishness to the unregenerate, then it will never penetrate their minds because they are still spiritually dead!
ie. Men must born again before they can understand the cross! Thus New Birth is by other means, just as Jesus showed with the child!
So what of the Cross?
1Cor1v18(b) but to us who are being saved it is the power of God
The message of the cross is entirely about the power of God for those who are already born again.
That's why Paul's directs his teachings at believers, not unbelievers.

I am saddened you think Gods Word is religious nonsense.

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No, the scriptures are truly wonderful, its just your theology that's religious nonsense.

Rawtheran said:

Yes the key word is KNOWINGLY meaning people know about the saving power of Christ, know that they are a sinner but don't care.

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Glad we got that cleared up. I was under the impression you believed that Anne Frank and any other presumably unsaved soul were unsaved by their own choice.

Sketcher said:

So, if God decides what people truly deserve, and if he decides that people are deserving of eternal torment, and judges them accordingly, I'm not seeing the either/or scenario you presented.

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The question is, if God judges someone righteously, i.e. gives them what they actually deserve, will anybody suffer eternal torture?

holo said:

The question is, if God judges someone righteously, i.e. gives them what they actually deserve, will anybody suffer eternal torture?

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Since God decides what people actually deserve, and since he has decided that eternal torment (Scripture doesn't describe it as torture that I recall) is a deserving sentence for some people, then those people will suffer eternal torment.

Randy777 said:

Didn't work at Masada they perished. I would assume some of them cursed God in their ignorance and unbelief.

Rev 11 - 1260 days of testimony in Jerusalem. Killed and raised to life in front of the "whole" world. Those who believe and call on the Lord will become members of the body of Christ. Those that take joy in their deaths will believe the lie of the beast that follows so as to be condemned for they refuse to repent of their evil ways and do not believe God.

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We're talking about the class of persons who are 'innocent victims' of war and strife, and who have not confessed faith as at the time of death. This is a very large class, as you can well-imagine.

I say that this class puts damnation theology in a quandary, because its adherents need to maintain the goodness, righteousness and justice of God by the inescapable conclusion that He sends those poor souls to burn in hell forever.

And I say that's a nonsense and worse, a blight on God's thrice holy name. So the real question is how do you deal with the fate of the 'unbelieving victim class' in your theology?

holo said:

The question is, if God judges someone righteously, i.e. gives them what they actually deserve, will anybody suffer eternal torture?

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Of course not, and that's the question that puts the lie to damnation theology. So what are the alternatives? Well, God doesn't muck about. We see Him in Christ restoring sight to the blind, freeing the slaves, raising the dead, healing the lepers, making the lame dance like deer. Hmm, so what could the answer be? Restoration perhaps? Could it be that the Lake of Fire is God's superabundant grace and love that burns away unbelief and the sickness of sin, producing a clean repentant heart purified in the essence of God's being? Baptism of fire, purification of the flesh, washing of the robes in the Lamb's blood. Hmm?

But wouldn't that mean the perpetrators of hideous crimes get a free pass? By no means, they get to face up with an exposed conscience to the full measure of their evil deeds, and thence to fall to their knees before God and their victims, pleading for forgiveness with a contrite and tender heart. So let the healing begin. Just like the experience of divine revelation, amazing grace, being born again in Christ. Now doesn't that theology work a little better?

Randy777 said:

26 million Russians died in WW2. Do they get a free pass as well?

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The audacity! To think that they would go to heaven through no effort of their own, by nothing but grace, while the rest of us, uh... deserved it I guess?

Sketcher said:

Since God decides what people actually deserve, and since he has decided that eternal torment (Scripture doesn't describe it as torture that I recall) is a deserving sentence for some people, then those people will suffer eternal torment.

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It doesn't get much more righteous by being torment as opposed to torture.

Yeah, sure God decides what happens to them. The question is if they actually deserve it. Do you think they do?

Shrewd Manager said:

Of course not, and that's the question that puts the lie to damnation theology. So what are the alternatives? Well, God doesn't muck about. We see Him in Christ restoring sight to the blind, freeing the slaves, raising the dead, healing the lepers, making the lame dance like deer. Hmm, so what could the answer be? Restoration perhaps? Could it be that the Lake of Fire is God's superabundant grace and love that burns away unbelief and the sickness of sin, producing a clean repentant heart purified in the essence of God's being? Baptism of fire, purification of the flesh, washing of the robes in the Lamb's blood. Hmm?

But wouldn't that mean the perpetrators of hideous crimes get a free pass? By no means, they get to face up with an exposed conscience to the full measure of their evil deeds, and thence to fall to their knees before God and their victims, pleading for forgiveness with a contrite and tender heart. So let the healing begin. Just like the experience of divine revelation, amazing grace, being born again in Christ. Now doesn't that theology work a little better?

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It absolutely does work better as it's compatible with God's omniscience and omnipotence, and straight up common sense for that matter. It means that what Paul says about salvation being by grace actually and literally true. Grace and nothing but grace. That's what I think the first Christians believed, anyway. "Gospel" supposedly means "good news" but according to a mainstream Christianity, it's the worst possible news for most people.

holo said:

It absolutely does work better as it's compatible with God's omniscience and omnipotence, and straight up common sense for that matter. It means that what Paul says about salvation being by grace actually and literally true. Grace and nothing but grace. That's what I think the first Christians believed, anyway. "Gospel" supposedly means "good news" but according to a mainstream Christianity, it's the worst possible news for most people.

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Couldn't agree more, it should really be a 'no-brainer', but for the little problem of religious indoctrination, for which Jesus saved his harshest criticisms.

May I ask, did toxic theology have anything to do with your becoming agnostic?

holo said:

The audacity! To think that they would go to heaven through no effort of their own, by nothing but grace, while the rest of us, uh... deserved it I guess?

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In Christ there is no sin. Apart from Him guilt remains.
Its not for man to choose how to forgive sin.