The Seed of Abraham

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
* Citizenship yes. But I don't think it's the citizenship of Israel.
Feel free to prove me wrong.
Paul Proves you wrong:
"Ye were...aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise...[but Christ] hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens."(Eph 2:12,19)

Paul is abundantly clear here. Gentile converts to Christianity go from being "foreigners of the commonwealth of Israel" to "fellow citizens."

Paul goes from "Ye were aliens of the Commonwealth OF ISRAEL", to, "Ye are no more ".

How is Paul Wrong?



Romans 2:29 makes it clear that there is only one requirement for a Jew that is needed to be a Jew.

Correct, DNA has nothing to do with it, nor does Geography, nor does Temple worship, Feasts, Sacrifices... ANYONE who is INWARDLY a follower of the JEWISH MESSIAH is a Jew, Fellow citizen of the Commonwealth of Israel.

I'm glad we agree on that.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

thomas_t

Blessings Collector
Nov 9, 2019
675
138
43
Bamberg
✟33,904.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Paul Proves you wrong:
"Ye were...aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise...[but Christ] hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens."(Eph 2:12,19)

Paul is abundantly clear here. Gentile converts to Christianity go from being "foreigners of the commonwealth of Israel" to "fellow citizens."

Paul goes from "Ye were aliens of the Commonwealth OF ISRAEL", to, "Ye are no more ".

How is Paul Wrong?





Correct, DNA has nothing to do with it, nor does Geography, nor does Temple worship, Feasts, Sacrifices... ANYONE who is INWARDLY a follower of the JEWISH MESSIAH is a Jew, Fellow citizen of the Commonwealth of Israel.

I'm glad we agree on that.
I didn't say Paul was wrong. I don't agree with your interpretation that Paul is talking about the citizenship of the Commonwealth of Israel in Ephesians 2:19.
An inward follower of Jesus is a Christian. An inward Jew is a Jew.
There are folks that are both (messianic). But you don't become a Jew by virtue of converting to Christianity.
I would say that Christians are fellow citizens of the kingdom of heaven. Not of Israel. Israel isn't the same as the kingdom of heaven.
Between Ephesians 2:12, that mentions Israel, and 2:19, mentioning citizenship of the Christians, ... there is a great abundancy of verses in between. Stating that citizenship of Israel is meant in Ephesians 2:19 is mere conjecture.
Verse 2:12 says that anyone foreign to Israel had no chance of entering into contact to God whatsoever... and later in that passage Paul said this has changed, since anyone can have contact with God now.
In that sense, Christians are no longer just Gentiles but connected with God. Before, if you didn't have citizenship in Israel, there was no such possibility for gentile people. This is how I understand this passage.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, that was not a Christian church. You can't circumvent baptism. Only baptism makes someone enter the Christian church: see 1 Corinthians 12:13
How about the thief on the cross? How about baptism replacing circumcision? How about Paul saying he came not to baptize?
 
Upvote 0

thomas_t

Blessings Collector
Nov 9, 2019
675
138
43
Bamberg
✟33,904.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
How about the thief on the cross
That's a good question, you do think clear here.
My reply to this: no member of the church.
Since he was not baptized... he could not have been a member of the church. But baptism was impossible if on a cross.
So, Christ couldn't have thought that he made a mistake not seeking baptism.
Baptism, as I see it, is not needed to get saved, anyways. It's needed to enter the church, Paul is clear on that.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
That's a good question, you do think clear here.
My reply to this: no member of the church.
Since he was not baptized... he could not have been a member of the church. But baptism was impossible if on a cross.
So, Christ couldn't have thought that he made a mistake not seeking baptism.
Baptism, as I see it, is not needed to get saved, anyways. It's needed to enter the church, Paul is clear on that.
All believers are Christ's body. Baptism is for believers only. I waited a year or so before I attended a church where I was baptized. I was still saved or I would not have been looking for a church.
 
Upvote 0

summerville

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2020
1,190
437
77
Atlanta
✟11,428.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Paul Proves you wrong:
"Ye were...aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise...[but Christ] hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens."(Eph 2:12,19)

Paul is abundantly clear here. Gentile converts to Christianity go from being "foreigners of the commonwealth of Israel" to "fellow citizens."

Paul goes from "Ye were aliens of the Commonwealth OF ISRAEL", to, "Ye are no more ".

How is Paul Wrong?





Correct, DNA has nothing to do with it, nor does Geography, nor does Temple worship, Feasts, Sacrifices... ANYONE who is INWARDLY a follower of the JEWISH MESSIAH is a Jew, Fellow citizen of the Commonwealth of Israel.

I'm glad we agree on that.

Today in Israel there is a big, legal difference between citizens and nationals.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Today in Israel there is a big, legal difference between citizens and nationals.
Ok... Today in Israel it is a Multi Ethnic, SECULAR Democratic Nation state.

Which is a BIG Difference from the Pre-desolation Hebrew Theocracy that once occupied similar geography.

they are not the same entity at all.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
An inward follower of Jesus is a Christian. An inward Jew is a Jew.
There are folks that are both (messianic). But you don't become a Jew by virtue of converting to Christianity.

How does one become an Inward Jew then?
Who is eligible?
How does one know if he's eligible or not and what action must one who is eligible take??

If we are to believe what John Said is true, that people who do not have the son do not have the father also (1 John 2:23), then what benefit is being a Christ rejecting (and therefore God Rejecting), inward jew to anyone anyway?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

thomas_t

Blessings Collector
Nov 9, 2019
675
138
43
Bamberg
✟33,904.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
All believers are Christ's body.
all *baptised* believers are Christ's body. Scripture verse: see post 359.
Now you come up saying that all believers are Christ's body, regardless of baptism.
You have no Bible verse to show this. Even if you could cite the feelings you had before your own baptism... this doesn't count as Bible proof for your allegation, please.
Thomas
 
Upvote 0

thomas_t

Blessings Collector
Nov 9, 2019
675
138
43
Bamberg
✟33,904.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
How does one become an Inward Jew then?
Who is eligible?
How does one know if he's eligible or not and what action must one who is eligible take??
good questions, however I am not interested in solving them, but I ask anybody claiming that Christians are the new/ real Jews to substanciate their claims using Bible proof. If they can't provide I classify their claims as unsupported allegations.
God knows the answer to your questions.
Maybe you post your points in the other section that has an interreligious dialogue?
Thomas
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
all *baptised* believers are Christ's body. Scripture verse: see post 359.
Now you come up saying that all believers are Christ's body, regardless of baptism.
You have no Bible verse to show this. Even if you could cite the feelings you had before your own baptism... this doesn't count as Bible proof for your allegation, please.
Thomas
You are taking my post-off-topic.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
in answering your post about who you think the church is
“because the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ is the head of the church. And he is the Savior of the body, which is the church.” Ephesians 5:23 (EXPNT)
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I ask anybody claiming that Christians are the new/ real Jews to substanciate their claims using Bible proof.

Which I have done.
You don't agree with my conclusions, but my conclusions are indeed based on clear, compelling scriptural testimony which I have provided.

Even though Paul Clearly testifies that Gentile converts to Christianity were "once Foreigners to the commonwealth of Israel, but are now fellow citizens" your bias will not allow you to accept His words at face value, and instead your bias forces you to "suppose" he means citizens of some other entity, even though you have no textual support for your supposition.

If they can't provide I classify their claims as unsupported allegations.

I have provided the scripture, my conclusions are indeed supported by scripture, you just don't agree with my conclusions, but your claims i have not supported them are unsubstantiated.

God knows the answer to your questions.

If you freely admit you have no clue who ARE the Jews, how is it you can claim you know who they AREN'T?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

thomas_t

Blessings Collector
Nov 9, 2019
675
138
43
Bamberg
✟33,904.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Which I have done.
You don't agree with my conclusions, but my conclusions are indeed based on clear, compelling scriptural testimony which I have provided.

Even though Paul Clearly testifies that Gentile converts to Christianity were "once Foreigners to the commonwealth of Israel, but are now fellow citizens" your bias will not allow you to accept His words at face value, and instead your bias forces you to "suppose" he means citizens of some other entity, even though you have no textual support for your supposition.



I have provided the scripture, my conclusions are indeed supported by scripture, you just don't agree with my conclusions, but your claims i have not supported them are unsubstantiated.



If you freely admit you have no clue who ARE the Jews, how is it you can claim you know who they AREN'T?
There is no bias in what I say here, you didn't provide scipture proof that citizenship of Israel is meant in Ephesians 2:19. You merely declared it to be so. I say it was citizenship of heaven since the context is about appoaching God. Ephesians 2:12 mentioning Israel is too far away from verse 19 to conclude that it is still meant in the latter verse 19 when there's so much context in between.
"once Foreigners to the commonwealth of Israel [seven verses later:, added mine], but are now fellow citizens", you say...
Paul did not say that sentence that you made him appear to have said.
The first six words from your quote are from verse 12, the last words from verse 19. Don't try to make it look like they belong together in the same phrase!

Verse 12 mentions Israel because you couldn't circumvent Israel to approach Jesus back then.

I can say that Christians and Jews are different groups.
Romans 11:28 is clear: Jews are enemies of the Gospel (except the few messianics)... but we all know: Christians are not!

Edit: Paul makes it clear in Philippians 3:20: Christian citizenship is of heaven. (Not Israel.)
Edit 31.3. At least he says to the Philippians that they have a citizenship in heaven. This doesn't mean every Christian has this citizenship, though, I think. The Phillipians had it, and the Ephesians seemed to have too.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There is no bias in what I say here, you didn't provide scipture proof that citizenship of Israel is meant in Ephesians 2:19. You merely declared it to be so. I say it was citizenship of heaven since the context is about appoaching God. Ephesians 2:12 mentioning Israel is too far away from verse 19 to conclude that it is still meant in the latter verse 19 when there's so much context in between.
"once Foreigners to the commonwealth of Israel [seven verses later:, added mine], but are now fellow citizens", you say...
Paul did not say that sentence that you made him appear to have said.
The first six words from your quote are from verse 12, the last words from verse 19. Don't try to make it look like they belong together in the same phrase!

Verse 12 mentions Israel because you couldn't circumvent Israel to approach Jesus back then.

I can say that Christians and Jews are different groups.
Romans 11:28 is clear: Jews are enemies of the Gospel (except the few messianics)... but we all know: Christians are not!

Edit: Paul makes it clear in Philippians 3:20: Christian citizenship is of heaven. (Not Israel.)

You and I are citizens of True Israel of the Covenant. True Israel is made up of the following citizens:

(1) Jesus and his first century Jewish followers and converts (Gal 6:15-16; Phil 3:3; 1 Peter 2:9)

(2) The Old Testament believing jews and converts to the covenant (Eph 2:19-22)

(3) The gentile converts who were added in during Paul's ministry and made partakers of Israel (Eph 2:11-3:11; Col 2:24-27; Romans 11:17-23)


That is who Israel is according to the scriptures.

The Remnant of the elect Jews followed God by following Jesus and his jewish apostles. They are True Faithful Israel. Their jewish brothers who disobeyed and fought against them were cut off from among the people, as stated in Acts 3:22-24. The Rock crushed them (1 Pet 2:7-8/Mt 21:43-45), for they rejected the time of God's visitation (Luke 19:40-44). And Thomas, this is the same pattern that took place in Isaiah's day and in Elijah's day -- i.e., the REMNANT of the jews is true Israel and the rest are destroyed and do not have any heritage (Rom 9:27/Rom 11:2-5).

You have replaced the remnant of The true Israel with the Unfaithful wicked ones as the true Heirs today.

In contrast to your teaching, The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen" (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3). Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23) All of which is in direct opposition to your teaching.

You count only the disobedient Jews as Israel!
In your teaching, The obedient Israelites, who get baptized, somehow cease to be Israel. That's completely backwards. Completely. I hope you will someday teach the truth: namely, that the jews who refuse to get baptized get "cut off from among the people of God" (Acts 3:22-24) and cease to be "sons of Abraham." Such disobedient ones are called "sons of satan" (John 8:39-47/Rev 2:9). You are turned completely around backwards with regard to this topic. The apostles and Mary and Joseph and their Jewish followers are TRUE ISRAEL and the true church.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: Adamina
Upvote 0

thomas_t

Blessings Collector
Nov 9, 2019
675
138
43
Bamberg
✟33,904.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
@parousia70, the Israelite apostles were Israelites, I never claimed otherewise.
However, only Israelites should be labelled with a label typical of Israelites only: being an inward Jew according to Romans 2:29. The rest of your "key identifyers" might be applied to both groups.
I did not replace Messianic Israelites. They belong to Israel. Stop putting words in my mouth, I told you already in posts no. 345 and no. 351 after you falsely claimed I would tell otherwise.

As I said, in the desert after having escaped Egypt, disobedient Israelites remained part of Israel proving you wrong. All of them except Moses started worshipping other gods.

Israel is made up of Israelites. I am not. I suppose you aren't, either.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Israel is made up of Israelites.

Today's Israelites are Largley Secular, & absolutely 100% Multi-ethnic.

They have no relationship to the True Israel of the Messiah, or the Pre desolation Hebrew Theocracy.

Again, How can you yourself NOT be counted among Israel when St. Paul calls you "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29)? How can you NOT be counted among Israel when St. Peter calls you "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), the name given to Israel at Mt. Sinai (Ex 19:5-6)? How can you NOT be counted among Israel when you are the true "circumcision" (Phil 3:2-3)? How can you NOT be counted among Israel when Paul calls you the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16)? How can you NOT be counted among Israel when Paul says you are "no longer strangers and sojourners but fellow citizens" (Eph 2:19)? How can you NOT be counted among Israel when Paul calls you "a Jew" (Rom 2:27-29)?

And how can you ascribe to disobedient jews the status as God's beloved people when Jesus says: "I know the blasphemy of them who say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/3:9)?

I urge you to get on the right side of this, and quit teaching the opposite.
 
Upvote 0

thomas_t

Blessings Collector
Nov 9, 2019
675
138
43
Bamberg
✟33,904.00
Country
Germany
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Again, (1) How can you yourself NOT be counted among Israel when St. Paul calls you "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29)? (2) How can you NOT be counted among Israel when St. Peter calls you "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), the name given to Israel at Mt. Sinai (Ex 19:5-6)? (3)How can you NOT be counted among Israel when you are the true "circumcision" (Phil 3:2-3)? (4) How can you NOT be counted among Israel when Paul calls you the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16)? (5) How can you NOT be counted among Israel when Paul says you are "no longer strangers and sojourners but fellow citizens" (Eph 2:19)? (6) How can you NOT be counted among Israel when Paul calls you "a Jew" (Rom 2:27-29)?

And how can you ascribe to disobedient jews the status as God's beloved people when (7) Jesus says: "I know the blasphemy of them who say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/3:9)?

I urge you to get on the right side of this, and quit teaching the opposite.
1) Jesus is Abraham's seed. I'm not Jesus.
2) 2 nations. Israel + Christianity. Messianics are members of both.
3) 2 circumcisions
4) that's your presumption about who is or is not the "ISrael of God"
6) hey, Paul didn't do that!
7) this was directed to synagogues in particular, I think
And concerning 5)... I answered this presumption of yours already. See posts no. 362 and 375. Please, stop going round in circles with me. Finally.

So you proved nothing, in my opinion. Didn't we discuss these things in the other thread already? I mean you didn't bring anything new to the table that was not being discussed in the other thread, the one that you quoted? May I ask you: did you read that entire thread? I'm forced to be repeating myself here on and on, I'm afraid...
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Adamina

Praise Jesus
Supporter
Feb 29, 2020
124
43
U S A
✟16,550.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
claninja said:
Correct, thus the promise to Abraham were to Christ.
Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”h meaning One, who is Christ.

Don't forget the gentiles.
Galatians 3:26-29 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.
Indeed.........
Gentiles are not the natural seed, they will not get the land promise.
Neither will the Jews and non-Jew Hebrew Israelites until they come to the faith and belief of Jesus the Christ, Who is both their, and the Gentiles, Lord, Savior and Redeemer.

Luk 1:68 “Blessed is the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited and redeemed His people,

Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),
1Pe 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers,
Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain/slaughtered, And have redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
Rev 14:3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb.
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations,..........................
========================================
 
Upvote 0