Is the Rapture biblical?

Dorothy Mae said:

That what it means when it says the dead in Christ rise first. That is resurrection.

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it is amazing on this thread that any two people agree! ;-)

A moment after the dead in Christ rise, those who are alive in Christ will be caught up and changed. Where many people disagree is WHEN in relation to other events in Revelation.

Another HUGE disagreement is where they are taken after they are caught up.

iamlamad said:

it is amazing on this thread that any two people agree! ;-)

A moment after the dead in Christ rise, those who are alive in Christ will be caught up and changed. Where many people disagree is WHEN in relation to other events in Revelation.

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When the dead arise it’s the Resurrection. I don’t see how anyone can think the dead bodies arising in new bodies is not the resurrection.

Another HUGE disagreement is where they are taken after they are caught up.

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This is a silly argument whereby the participants have no way of knowing. Might as well argue about the design of the dwellings we will have in Heaven and what’s for breakfast, eggs or rice.

It’s just a way avoid the real problems.

Davy said:

I can't help you then if you won't heed the written Scripture. I'm not preaching my own word here, but showing what is actually written vs. men's doctrines that many latch onto because they won't... do their own Bible study with God's help.



My first electric was a Gibson ES345 semi-hollow body with a Bigbsy vibrato, phase switch for the pickups, and a stereo output (it could use a single 1/4" phone jack, or a 'Y' cable to feed two guitar amps). I then had a '70s Fender Strat, a 1983 Strat Elite, and a '91 Tele Plus.

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I'm not preaching my own word here, but showing what is actually written vs. men's doctrines I disagree. Yes, you show scriptures, but then you attach a posttrib preconception of the meaning on every scripture. It is those preconceptions that I disagree with. Case in point: the gathering in Matthew 24. Posttribbers teach that that gathering is Paul's rapture, while pretribbers teach that it is a different gathering. IF - and again I say IF - there was a clear verse proving this gathering was or was not Paul's rapture, there would not be hundreds of threads of posts disagreeing about it.

One thing we should agree on: BOTH SIDES study their bible. Therefore to say
"men's doctrines that many latch onto because they won't... do their own Bible study with God's help" Is bogus.

Yes, agreed: some people study a lot, some study a little, others not at all. However, those that post on threads I think study a lot. However, leaders of denominations study a lot, and come up with different theories - which is why we have denominations. What is lacking? Few if any, take time to mediated on tough scriptures, pray in the spirit, and wait on the Holy Spirit to teach. He always will if people do what is required. Few do.

If I had only learned to PLAY a guitar..... People like Chet make me jealous.
Did you ever hear of David L Smith who used to play for gospel quartets: started when he was 13! I also knew a little of Mr. Gospel Guitar: Dwayne Friend. Both of these men played the Chet Atkins style, but played gospel.

Dorothy Mae said:

When the dead arise it’s the Resurrection. I don’t see how anyone can think the dead bodies arising in new bodies is not the resurrection.
This is a silly argument whereby the participants have no way of knowing. Might as well argue about the design of the dwellings we will have in Heaven and what’s for breakfast, eggs or rice.

It’s just a way avoid the real problems.

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Paul tells us that bodies change:
1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed...

I am convinced, in one instant of time God will bring together all the particles that once made up a saint's body, and put it all back together exactly as it was - not when they died, but perhaps when they were 30 years old - at the prime of life. Then, as that body flies up out of the ground, God changes it into a resurrection body that will never die. It seems from Paul that people way back then were arguing with Paul about what kind of body.

What we can be absolutely sure of is that death will be gone forever! Hallelujah!

iamlamad said:

I'm not preaching my own word here, but showing what is actually written vs. men's doctrines I disagree. Yes, you show scriptures, but then you attach a posttrib preconception of the meaning on every scripture. It is those preconceptions that I disagree with. Case in point: the gathering in Matthew 24. Posttribbers teach that that gathering is Paul's rapture, while pretribbers teach that it is a different gathering. IF - and again I say IF - there was a clear verse proving this gathering was or was not Paul's rapture, there would not be hundreds of threads of posts disagreeing about it.

One thing we should agree on: BOTH SIDES study their bible. Therefore to say
"men's doctrines that many latch onto because they won't... do their own Bible study with God's help" Is bogus.

Yes, agreed: some people study a lot, some study a little, others not at all. However, those that post on threads I think study a lot. However, leaders of denominations study a lot, and come up with different theories - which is why we have denominations. What is lacking? Few if any, take time to mediated on tough scriptures, pray in the spirit, and wait on the Holy Spirit to teach. He always will if people do what is required. Few do.

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Anyone who insists they alone are correctly using scripture but won’t look at any scripture but the ones they like is fooling themselves. They don’t correctly use scripture because those who know the truth use all passages, dismiss none and search all the scriptures to see if claims are so.

sovereigngrace said:

The only red herring is Pretrib. Pretrib has not one single proof-text in the whole of Scripture. You have previously admitted that. You have nothing that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a 3rd coming of Christ. It does not exist in the sacred text. You just cherry pick detail from various unrelated passages in Scripture, dump them all into a pot, and stir them together, and lo and behold what is produced is Pretrib.

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I could go ahead and write: Posttrib has not one single proof-text - which is just as true as what you wrote.

Let's quit arguing and lets pick one scripture and determine what the Author's intent was and is.

What I said was, NEITHER SIDE of this argument has any clear scripture - else this problem would never have even came up. The truth is, God left us what we have in scripture, and we have to work with it.

There most certainly is scripture that (1) teaches a rapture of the church. There is another scripture that (2) teaches a 7 year tribulation, and yet another scripture that teaches us (3) a coming of Christ to Armageddon.

If God showed us these points in different scriptures, then that is what we have to work with.

Let's start with (1) the rapture. There is VERY CLEAR scripture for the rapture. It is in 1 Thes. 4 & 5, and is mentioned in 2 Thes. 2.

Can we agree so far?

Dorothy Mae said:

Anyone who insists they alone are correctly using scripture but won’t look at any scripture but the ones they like is fooling themselves. They don’t correctly use scripture because those who know the truth use all passages, dismiss none and search all the scriptures to see if claims are so.

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Pretrib has to say that because they have nothing. They have no proof-texts and obviously zero corroboration.

Dorothy Mae said:

Anyone who insists they alone are correctly using scripture but won’t look at any scripture but the ones they like is fooling themselves. They don’t correctly use scripture because those who know the truth use all passages, dismiss none and search all the scriptures to see if claims are so.

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Wow! Very well said, Dorothy!

sovereigngrace said:

Pretrib has to say that because they have nothing. They have no proof-texts and obviously zero corroboration.

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And here all this time I thought that was posttrib!
Can we get real? OF COURSE BOTH SIDES have proof-texts!

iamlamad said:

I could go ahead and write: Posttrib has not one single proof-text - which is just as true as what you wrote.

Let's quit arguing and lets pick one scripture and determine what the Author's intent was and is.

What I said was, NEITHER SIDE of this argument has any clear scripture - else this problem would never have even came up. The truth is, God left us what we have in scripture, and we have to work with it.

There most certainly is scripture that (1) teaches a rapture of the church. There is another scripture that (2) teaches a 7 year tribulation, and yet another scripture that teaches us (3) a coming of Christ to Armageddon.

If God showed us these points in different scriptures, then that is what we have to work with.

Let's start with (1) the rapture. There is VERY CLEAR scripture for the rapture. It is in 1 Thes. 4 & 5, and is mentioned in 2 Thes. 2.

Can we agree so far?

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Let us use the biblical words/phrases "caught up" (1 Thessalonians 4:17), “taken” (Matthew 24:35-42, Luke 17:34–37), "gather together" (Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), “gathering together" 2 Thessalonians 2:1), or “delivered up” (1 Corinthians 15:24). The word “rapture” is an extra-biblical term and is associated with Pretrib error, so it is not helpful.

sovereigngrace said:

Lamad said:

You know as well as I that 1st and 2nd Thes. is SCRIPTURE.

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How can you possibly say that in the light of your rejection of the literal rendering of the passages we have looked in 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians? It is you that is sidestepping what these passages are saying. It is you that is denying the obvious. They both show sudden destruction at the coming of Christ. They show it to be the end. They both expose the Pretrib theory. Empty rhetoric does not cut it. All you have now is human reasoning. That is totally inadmissible.

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You have made many accusations here. Let's take one and prove it. Let's take 1 Thes. 4 first. See if you can find any proof that "sudden destruction" kills all unbelievers.

To do this you will have to prove that this scripture is indeed the end of time.

iamlamad said:

You have made many accusations here. Let's take one and prove it. Let's take 1 Thes. 4 first. See if you can find any proof that "sudden destruction" kills all unbelievers.

To do this you will have to prove that this scripture is indeed the end of time.

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Real easy! Read what is highlighted below, not what you have been taught.

Let us look at 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Pretrib

· Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?
· Where are your survivors?
· How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here?

Posttrib

• This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people.
• It’s shows the total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
• This is the end!

The un-indoctrinated Bible scholar must surely admit that this text oozes definite climactic detail. It first of all shows our Lord coming unexpectedly; it also reveals the fate that befalls all those on earth – both saved and unsaved. Whilst this is shown to be a day anticipated by God’s people, it is one that catches the wicked unawares. After the removal of the righteous all that awaits those left behind is total “destruction” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is interestingly the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant cry. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful and thorough that none escape. This is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of a subsequent 7yrs trib packed with unsaved people.

The opposite to “wrath” here is shown to be “salvation.” Salvation involves a person taking a hold of eternal life. The antithesis is therefore a person experiencing eternal torment. The wrath of God will be poured out on the wicked at the end. They will then experience the second death.

To get around the climactic detail of this passage Pretribs try to separate the day of the Lord from the second coming of Christ. This totally distorts the wording, the harmony and the thrust of this passage and its detailed description of the fate of the saved and the lost. The day of the Lord is pushed 7 years ahead of the coming of Christ even though there is no mention of such in this text. Pretrib is therefore exposed by this text.

The writer actually warns the believer in the light of the awful unexpected destruction that overcomes the wicked at the coming of Christ for the believer to be watchful of that day so “that that day should overtake you as a thief.” We are told to “watch and be sober” of that day.

Let us try and sum up what this much-debated passage is telling us about Christ’s coming.

This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.

sovereigngrace said:

Let 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 speak for itself: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

• Where is your seven year tribulation in this passage?
• Where are your survivors?
• How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here?

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Where is your seven year tribulation in this passage? Does it HAVE TO be in this passage to exist? What if it is in another passage? in blue you show "The day of the Lord." It seems them Paul puts THE DAY right after the rapture, not the 70th week. Will you agree that the Day of the Lord follows the rapture?

Notice the last phrase in red: "We should live together with Him." Is this saying the same thing he said in chapter 4, "so shall we ever be with the Lord?" I think it is saying exactly the same thing but in different words.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation Either people get wrath or they get salvation. It is one or the other: agree?

So then, Paul, HOW do we get to live together with Him? I believe we get to live together with him by way of the rapture. It is the theme of this passage. Agree? In other words, we could substitute "Obtain salvation" with 'get raptured" and we would not be changing the meaning.

In other words, we are not appointed to wrath because we get raptured: caught up and away from His wrath. Do you agree?

Where are your survivors? Where are your dead? I don't see "dead" anywhere here. I see "travail," but that does not tell us they die. I see "sudden destruction" but again those two words together does not tell us in any died. I see "they shall not escape" but again those words don't tell us if even one died. Maybe they just felt the ground shake.

Note carefully: sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child Does a woman usually die giving birth? No, yet this is what Paul likens it to. Not all women die giving birth and not all will die at this sudden destruction.

Ellicot's commentary: Destruction cometh upon them.—Literally, stands over them; or takes its stand over them; presents itself. The present tense is used for the sake of a more vivid effect.

Barnes' notes: that when the Lord Jesus shall come the world will not all be converted. There will be some to be "destroyed." How large this proportion will be, it is impossible now to ascertain. This supposition, however, is not inconsistent with the belief that there will be a general prevalence of the gospel before that period.

Sudden destruction - Destruction that was unforeseen (αἰφνίδιος aiphnidios) or unexpected. The word here rendered "sudden," occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, except in Luke 21:34, "Lest that day come upon you unawares." The word rendered "destruction" - ὄλεθρος olethros - occurs in the New Testament only here and in 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Timothy 6:9, in all of which places it is correctly translated destruction. The word destruction is familiar to us. It means, properly, demolition; pulling down; the annihilation of the form of anything, or that form of parts which constitutes it what it is; as the destruction of grass by eating; of a forest by cutting down the trees; of life by murder; of the soul by consigning it to misery. It does not necessarily mean annihilation - for a house or city is not annihilated which is pulled down or burnt; a forest is not annihilated which is cut down; and a man is not annihilated whose character and happiness are destroyed. In regard to the destruction here referred to, we may remark...

that it seems fairly implied that the destruction which they will then suffer will not be annihilation, but will be connected with conscious existence;

Not much help in the commentaries.

How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here? Here you are spinning it.
Compare:
Rev. 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Here John makes it very clear: 1/3rd will die. There is no such wording given in our passage. Therefore I believe you are adding to the text what is not written explicitly. I cannot agree to this. I don't see it. Destruction happens around the world with earthquakes, tsunami's and other disasters, but people live through them.

Tell us what this sudden destruction is - if you can?

From this text alone can you pinpoint a TIME in relation to other events in Revelation?

sovereigngrace said:

Posttrib

• This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people.
• It’s shows the total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!
• This is the end!

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This is a picture of the one-and-only future second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. Sorry, this is theory that cannot be proven by the text.

It’s shows the rescue, deliverance of God’s people. Yes, at this point in time it is the rescue of the church - rescued from the start of wrath.

This is the end! I can agree it is the end of the church age. Sorry, but there is no proof in the words in this passage that tells us it is "the last day" or "the end." You see, this is spin that cannot be proven - UNLESS you can tie the timing to another event that IS CLEARLY "the end."

Tell us "the end" of WHAT?

sovereigngrace said:

The un-indoctrinated Bible scholar must surely admit that this text oozes definite climactic detail. It first of all shows our Lord coming unexpectedly; it also reveals the fate that befalls all those on earth – both saved and unsaved. Whilst this is shown to be a day anticipated by God’s people, it is one that catches the wicked unawares. After the removal of the righteous all that awaits those left behind is total “destruction” (1 Thessalonians 5:3).

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The un-indoctrinated Bible scholar must surely admit that this text oozes definite climactic detail. Sorry, this is opinion that means nothing, since it cannot be proven.

Sorry, NOT "total destruction," but SUDDEN. Stop reading into the text what is not there! This is forcing a preconception upon a text.

iamlamad said:

I'm not preaching my own word here, but showing what is actually written vs. men's doctrines I disagree. Yes, you show scriptures, but then you attach a posttrib preconception of the meaning on every scripture.

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It is not me... that is assigning a post-trib timing, it is the Scriptures themselves as written. For example, in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, that gathering is the same... event that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4.

In both of those examples Jesus gave, He showed those events occur AFTER the tribulation. Is that me adding a post-trib timing? Absolutely not! It is what the actual Scripture states.

But the pre-trib rapture school uses a false excuse out of that. They simply say those Scriptures there our Lord Jesus gave about His gathering His Church isn't even about the Church! It's instead about some special group of "tribulation saints". No, it is not. It is the SAME event Paul gave in 1 Thess.4 for how two groups of saints are gathered to Jesus when He comes, the 'asleep' saints Jesus brings with Him from Heaven, and then the caught up saints alive on earth on that day.

So in reality, it is the pre-trib rapture school that makes those who believe them continually place a pre-trib timing 'into' the Scriptures where it doesn't belong. And with clearly written Scriptures like Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, they instead say it isn't for us at all! I'm sorry, but that is direct evidence of a bunch of charlatans out to deceive the brethren.

sovereigngrace said:

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

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This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. This is opinion and cannot be proven.

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Actually, I can agree that He comes "with" some saints, a WHOLE not more that is going to be caught up alive. It is going to be the combined number of perhaps 40 to 50 generations!

However, can anyone prove this is saying the same thing as the armies of heaven following Jesus as shown in Rev. 19? No one has yet. Here those WITH Him are only the spirits of the saints, bodyless spirits coming to join with their bodies once again.

This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ). Agree. Both those who were dead and the alive fly up into the air around the world. But Jesus is on the air only ONE PLACE in the world - perhaps above Jerusalem. No one knows. So the saints are "gathered" together to where Jesus is. My guess is, this is done by the Holy Spirit Himself, since it will be His power raising the dead.

THERE IS NO MENTION OF ANGELS gathering here.

sovereigngrace said:

It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end. The word rendered “remain” in our King James Version (which relates to those that are alive at Christ’s coming) is interestingly the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.

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It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end.
Sorry, but this is spin that cannot be proven by this passage. Millions around the world does not believe this is "the end."

Tell us, the end of WHAT?

interestingly the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.
How interesting you left off these other two definitions so it would fit your spin!
to leave over
to remain over

The meaning is simple: before this event, there will be those alive on earth that are "in Christ" and others in graves - the bodies of those who were in christ when they were alive on earth. Once the dead in christ are raised up, then ONLY those alive and in Christ are left over. Trying to make these who are alive into tribulation saints is SPIN. It seems you "spin" too much!

iamlamad said:

Where is your seven year tribulation in this passage? Does it HAVE TO be in this passage to exist? What if it is in another passage? in blue you show "The day of the Lord." It seems them Paul puts THE DAY right after the rapture, not the 70th week. Will you agree that the Day of the Lord follows the rapture?

Notice the last phrase in red: "We should live together with Him." Is this saying the same thing he said in chapter 4, "so shall we ever be with the Lord?" I think it is saying exactly the same thing but in different words.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation Either people get wrath or they get salvation. It is one or the other: agree?

So then, Paul, HOW do we get to live together with Him? I believe we get to live together with him by way of the rapture. It is the theme of this passage. Agree? In other words, we could substitute "Obtain salvation" with 'get raptured" and we would not be changing the meaning.

In other words, we are not appointed to wrath because we get raptured: caught up and away from His wrath. Do you agree?

Where are your survivors? Where are your dead? I don't see "dead" anywhere here. I see "travail," but that does not tell us they die. I see "sudden destruction" but again those two words together does not tell us in any died. I see "they shall not escape" but again those words don't tell us if even one died. Maybe they just felt the ground shake.

Note carefully: sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child Does a woman usually die giving birth? No, yet this is what Paul likens it to. Not all women die giving birth and not all will die at this sudden destruction.

Ellicot's commentary: Destruction cometh upon them.—Literally, stands over them; or takes its stand over them; presents itself. The present tense is used for the sake of a more vivid effect.

Barnes' notes: that when the Lord Jesus shall come the world will not all be converted. There will be some to be "destroyed." How large this proportion will be, it is impossible now to ascertain. This supposition, however, is not inconsistent with the belief that there will be a general prevalence of the gospel before that period.

Sudden destruction - Destruction that was unforeseen (αἰφνίδιος aiphnidios) or unexpected. The word here rendered "sudden," occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, except in Luke 21:34, "Lest that day come upon you unawares." The word rendered "destruction" - ὄλεθρος olethros - occurs in the New Testament only here and in 1 Corinthians 5:5; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; 1 Timothy 6:9, in all of which places it is correctly translated destruction. The word destruction is familiar to us. It means, properly, demolition; pulling down; the annihilation of the form of anything, or that form of parts which constitutes it what it is; as the destruction of grass by eating; of a forest by cutting down the trees; of life by murder; of the soul by consigning it to misery. It does not necessarily mean annihilation - for a house or city is not annihilated which is pulled down or burnt; a forest is not annihilated which is cut down; and a man is not annihilated whose character and happiness are destroyed. In regard to the destruction here referred to, we may remark...

that it seems fairly implied that the destruction which they will then suffer will not be annihilation, but will be connected with conscious existence;

Not much help in the commentaries.

How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here? Here you are spinning it.
Compare:
Rev. 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Here John makes it very clear: 1/3rd will die. There is no such wording given in our passage. Therefore I believe you are adding to the text what is not written explicitly. I cannot agree to this. I don't see it. Destruction happens around the world with earthquakes, tsunami's and other disasters, but people live through them.

Tell us what this sudden destruction is - if you can?

From this text alone can you pinpoint a TIME in relation to other events in Revelation?

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So already you are trying to sidetrack our discussion away to an unrelated text to somehow glean support for what is lacking in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. This is typical of how you approach Scripture.

You say billions of wicked survive, the text says "they shall not escape”

Paul uses the suddenness of a thief breaking into a house and travail coming upon a woman to illustrate the speed of the destruction. He adds the phrase "they shall not escape” to demonstrate the scale of the destruction. There is no way of getting away from this.

The coming of Christ is here (as 2 Peter 3) likened to the appearance of “a thief in the night,” thus reinforcing the swift and unexpected nature of this climactic event and the attending judgment. Moreover, the narrative demonstrates that the devastation that accompanies this climactic event is instantaneous and that it involves “sudden destruction.” Its focus is directed fully and entirely upon the sum-total of the wicked, not merely a percentage of them. This group that is referred to as “they” who “shall not escape” relates to the aggregate Christ-rejecting community alive at His return. It is they alone that experience immediate and “sudden destruction” which “cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child”; and “they shall [assuredly] not escape.” This climactic event pulls down the curtain on time and concludes the affairs of this life.

I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this Coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. Furthermore, we learn that the swiftness that the travail of childbirth comes upon a woman will be the way destruction suddenly hits the wicked. It is not saying that the whole child-birth experience is like the coming of the Lord, which would be needed to allow for the Premil understanding. That is not found in this text. In doing this they diminish the sudden nature of the destruction.

iamlamad said:

It is accompanied by the great sound of the trump ushering in the end.
Sorry, but this is spin that cannot be proven by this passage. Millions around the world does not believe this is "the end."

Tell us, the end of WHAT?

interestingly the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can take from this reading that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. These are tribulation saints.
How interesting you left off these other two definitions so it would fit your spin!
to leave over
to remain over

The meaning is simple: before this event, there will be those alive on earth that are "in Christ" and others in graves - the bodies of those who were in christ when they were alive on earth. Once the dead in christ are raised up, then ONLY those alive and in Christ are left over. Trying to make these who are alive into tribulation saints is SPIN. It seems you "spin" too much!

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Remain

Interestingly, when we examine the meaning of the word “remain,” we find it is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Therefore, we can deduce from this meaning that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving.