Salvation for Jews in the Holocaust?

Randy777 · Mar 22, 2020

Mark Dohle said:
To be blunt it is none of our business. We are called to love God with our whole heart, mind and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves. Jesus identifies with those who are outcast, it shows in how he related to those he saw every day.

We choose, Jesus came to save us from ourselves, not from the Father. Jesus was sent by the Father to the world to show us this love. When we put ourselves into a position to try to figure out the issue, it is then that we go against the "do not judge" commandment that Jesus so strongly stated.

Jesus, being the Infinite God, the creator of the universe, is, of course, the only source of salvation, how could it be otherwise. As St. Paul had his Damacus Road experience, so I believe will all those who seek truth. For even though St. Paul was doing evil, he thought he was doing God's will, hence his being open to the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Sort of like the Muslims today having dreams about Jesus and become followers.

I do not know; I trust in the total justice of God, which is total truth. We are no way capable of that.

St. Paul says that we will be judged according to our deeds, and our reward or punishment will flow from that.

Romans 2 - NIV Bible - You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass...

Peace
Mark

It is lawful to teach and proclaim the same gospel message that was preached to Israel first.

Mark Dohle · Mar 22, 2020

Randy777 said:
It is lawful to teach and proclaim the same gospel message that was preached to Israel first.

I do believe that we are called to show the love of Christ Jesus to all, as well as to proclaim the possibility of 'Hell'. I do not believe that all will be saved, for we have to choose, but the choice has to be made. We Christians are often hated in the 1st world, not because of our faith, but more because we actually bludgeon others with quotes from the bible in a way that leads to the wrong kind of response.

Our lives are serious business, yet I also know that God is about salvation, people are often about damning others. Christians do it to each other all the time, another scandal to the world.

I have no problem with your thoughts, you are my brother in Christ, and we both pray to the same Lord, and when I say the Our Father, for me it is a prayer for the salvation of all. Again, if someone is in hell, it is the only place for them, it is our natural state without God's grace........it is always about grace.

By the way, I am not saying you misuse the bible, I take it for granted that you present the truth in such a way the others will listen, and hopefully, once the seed is planted will one day make a conscious choice to follow Christ Jesus.

Peace
Mark

ViaCrucis · Mar 22, 2020

holo said:
People like Anne Frank, you mean?

Do you have reason to believe that Anne Frank deliberately and consciously wants to be in hell? Because I can't see how you, me, or any other person could possibly claim to know something like that. Also, I would say thinking that besmirches the name and memory of Anne Frank.

-CryptoLutheran

holo · Mar 22, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
Do you have reason to believe that Anne Frank deliberately and consciously wants to be in hell? Because I can't see how you, me, or any other person could possibly claim to know something like that. Also, I would say thinking that besmirches the name and memory of Anne Frank.

-CryptoLutheran

I personally don't believe she or anybody else is in hell. I was responding to someone who seems to say that the unsaved (which would probably include the vast majority of the victims of the holocaust) are in hell because they:

Rawtheran said:
choose to reject Christ and knowingly worship and give power to the enemy

Rawtheran · Mar 22, 2020

holo said:
People like Anne Frank, you mean?

What? That question doesn't even make sense.....

Rawtheran · Mar 22, 2020

holo said:
I personally don't believe she or anybody else is in hell. I was responding to someone who seems to say that the unsaved (which would probably include the vast majority of the victims of the holocaust) are in hell because they:

Yes the key word is KNOWINGLY meaning people know about the saving power of Christ, know that they are a sinner but don't care.

solid_core · Mar 22, 2020

holo said:
Sure, there are several scriptures that seem to say that faith in Christ gives eternal life, while sin means eternal death. Death would be the default, so to speak. I'm pointing out the problems of the doctrine that some (or indeed, most) people are given eternal life in hell.

There are many views what the "life in hell" means or if it is a life at all.

Aryeh Jay · Mar 22, 2020

Honestly, Anne Frank, as a Jew, had no idea of the Christian concept of hell. She lived through a hell created by the Nazi’s and she died.

Sketcher · Mar 22, 2020

holo said:
God?

So, if God decides what people truly deserve, and if he decides that people are deserving of eternal torment, and judges them accordingly, I'm not seeing the either/or scenario you presented.

ViaCrucis · Mar 22, 2020

Aryeh Jay said:
Honestly, Anne Frank, as a Jew, had no idea of the Christian concept of hell. She lived through a hell created by the Nazi’s and she died.

Which is why it would be wrong for any Christian to presume to speak of Anne Frank's eschatological outcome. It's simply not something any Christian has any right to say one way or another.

-CryptoLutheran

Basil the Great · Mar 22, 2020

The Catholic Church has recently stated that it is a mystery how the Jews are saved, implying that they are indeed saved. Perhaps, just perhaps, maybe the Holocaust was such a horrific act of suffering by the Jewish people, that God used such to bring the Jewish people to salvation. If this is too much for some of you to accept, then maybe God used the Holocaust to save only the Jews who were killed in the Holocaust and not those Jews who have lived since the Holocaust? The bottom line is that we do not know everything that God knows. Many Christians believe that while the Bible outlines the ordinary means of salvation, there could be extraordinary means that God may use. Perhaps God stops time when someone is at the moment of death and offers a last chance of salvation to someone? Maybe He especially does this to someone who is murdered? We simply do not know and cannot know everything that God knows. The Bible tells us much about God, but certainly not everything about Him.

Randy777 · Mar 22, 2020

I have hope for Ann who was young and also the very young of any religion who dies.

nolidad · Mar 22, 2020

Francis Drake said:
Jesus was the God the Jews already believed in throughout the OT.
Jesus is the Rock that accompanied them when they fled Egypt.

Not all Israel is of Israel as the Word says!

And they had no clue that Messiah was named Jesus!

solid_core · Mar 22, 2020

nolidad said:
Not all Israel is of Israel as the Word says!

And they had no clue that Messiah was named Jesus!

The name "Jesus" simply means "Yahweh is salvation", so not so difficult for the OT Jews to believe in this name even before the person of Jesus was born.

They also got Jesus (in English Bibles translated as Joshua) who lead them into the promised land after Moses, so they had this physical image of the spiritual leading into spiritual land, too.

The elect ones from Israel got this simple wisdom, the rest was blinded and hardened.

Francis Drake · Mar 22, 2020

nolidad said:
Not all Israel is of Israel as the Word says!

And they had no clue that Messiah was named Jesus!

As I said, Jesus was the God the Jews already believed in throughout the OT.
Jesus is the Rock that accompanied them when they fled Egypt.

There is no requirement that people knew Jesus's name.

They simply knew him as Jehovah, because that is who Jesus always was.

Shrewd Manager · Mar 23, 2020

This is a good one as it exposes the bankruptcy of damnation theology, summed up as 'Accept Jesus or burn forever'.

So the 'holocaust', understood as premeditated systematic extermination of a minority race has become a byword for evil/ max injustice. But if a person dies rejecting Jesus, then God tortures him forever, and that's considered good, justified on the basis the person allegedly had 'the choice'.

So God's hell is populated with the world's victims and losers, is it? Ethnic groups like the Jews are systematically punished in the most hideous ways forever and ever.

Something amiss with the theology perhaps?

Randy777 · Mar 23, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
This is a good one as it exposes the bankruptcy of damnation theology, summed up as 'Accept Jesus or burn forever'.

So the 'holocaust', understood as premeditated systematic extermination of a minority race has become a byword for evil/ max injustice. But if a person dies rejecting Jesus, then God tortures him forever, and that's considered good, justified on the basis the person allegedly had 'the choice'.

So God's hell is populated with the world's victims and losers, is it? Ethnic groups like the Jews are systematically punished in the most hideous ways forever and ever.

Something amiss with the theology perhaps?

26 million Russians died in WW2. Do they get a free pass as well?
What about those who perished at the hands of the Romans?

The way a person dies does NOT bring salvation.

Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son and its His Fathers will that He raise them up on the last day.

I would state in regard to judgments made it will be the Lords words that prevail.

Shrewd Manager · Mar 23, 2020

Randy777 said:
26 million Russians died in WW2. Do they get a free pass as well?
What about those who perished at the hands of the Romans?

The way a person dies does NOT bring salvation.

Those who listen and learn from the Father go to the Son and its His Fathers will that He raise them up on the last day.

I would state in regard to judgments made it will be the Lords words that prevail.

Did you mean to respond to my post? That's what I'm saying, all those victims, especially women and children casualties of war, are just woken up by God to be punished again, and forever under damnationist doctrine...unless they made 'the choice'.

I daresay God's justice system's a little better than that.

thomas_t · Mar 23, 2020

I agree with @Maria Billingsley when she writes against a sort of universalism that some people propose here.

But personally, I think it's it's a special case when it comes to the Jews. Jews are a minority persecuted by devout Christians through the ages. If Christians make hell real for them on earth, I think it would be unfair if God won't take that into consideration treating them the same as anybody else, if they don't repent and turn to Jesus..
And the Bible does make a special case for the Jews in particular: Romans 11:26.
This would be only just, when you say parents are lable for their children's crimes.
So, if ever Christians commit crimes against Jews, God might have to pay a special price, I think.

In a sad and ironical way, even on this very board there are numerous persons claiming that they (ordinary non-Jews) are the true Jews and Jews as of today are merely pretenders... as if Hitler accidentally mistook the Jews for being Jews.

Best regards,
Thomas

Randy777 · Mar 23, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Did you mean to respond to my post? That's what I'm saying, all those victims, especially women and children casualties of war, are just woken up by God to be punished again, and forever under damnationist doctrine...unless they made 'the choice'.

I daresay God's justice system's a little better than that.

What I see is "I don't know you". They will come before the Lord for judgment and Jesus will state, "I don't know you". That's what I see. As I stated before I have hope for the young and very young.

Jesus is the true vine. Every branch not in Him withers and dies. Such branches are gathered and thrown into the fire.

Salvation for Jews in the Holocaust?

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