A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

Christian Gedge

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My position is in agreement with the concept of near/far fulfillment of prophecy explained in:

The Near/Far Phenomenon in Bible Prophecy

Prophecy may be fulfilled gradually and over a long period of time. I don't think we can put a check mark beside prophecies that have been fulfilled and look forward to the ones that do not seem, in our interpretation, to have been fulfilled. Perhaps this sounds like a combination of the historicist and idealist views of revelation.

Both preterits and futurists engage in that "yes or no" approach to prophecy, when prophecy is actually "being" fulfilled. In this thread, Zechariah's prophecies that have been fulfilled were mentioned. But it's difficult to say that Zech 14 has been fulfilled or that Zech 12 & 13 have been completely fulfilled.

Mar 13:19 In those days there will be great suffering such as the world has never before seen and will never again see.

Was 66-70 AD the greatest disaster in history?


The way "ALL" is used in the NT is problematic to our scientific minds. But even in daily conversations we may say "all" when we mean "most" or "a majority" or "a large number." At least I do :).


Zec 12:10 says, "They will look to me, the one whom they pierced; they will mourn over him" Did the Jews in 66-70 AD mourn specifically over Jesus or mourn over themselves and their disaster?


Why was Jesus' generation responsible for the blood of prophets from Abel to Zechariah? How do you interpret Zec 14? How do you interpret Rev 20:7-9?

Rev 20:7 Now when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to bring them together for the battle. They are as numerous as the grains of sand in the sea. 9 They went up on the broad plain of the earth and encircled the campof the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and devoured them completely.

That is, of course, how I see it too. However, I must confess that Zechariah 12 to 14 is difficult to interpret. When Martin Luther was writing his commentary on the Minor Prophets, he said of Zech 14, “Here, in this chapter, I give up. For I am not sure what the prophet is talking about.” Ive always chuckled over that comment. ^_^
 
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sovereigngrace

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Obviously, these are referring to the same events. All one needs to do is get the timing of 2 Peter 3:10 correct, in order to get the timing of Matthew 24:35-36 correct. That of course presents a major problem if one can't even get the timing of 2 Peter 3:10 correct.

Exactly, Jesus' return see the cosmic conflagration. We are then into eternity.
 
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claninja

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In the event you were planning on addressing post #96 at some point, please don't bother. I have been under a lot of stress lately, personal issues at home, therefore I wasn't thinking clearly at the time per some of that post. When I used Revelation 11:2 as an argument, I should have been arguing that verse from Revelation 13, not from Revelation 11. So today I have a better idea. I don't even need to use the book of Revelation to demonstrate that a portion of your interpretation of the Discourse couldn't possibly be correct. I can do that from a verse or two in the Discourse alone, in order to easily demonstrate that a portion of your interpretation of the Discourse couldn't possibly be correct. I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner? But it's better late than never, as they say.

No worries brother

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Your interpretation of this verse says this----and shall be led away captive into all nations--after the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Yet that is not what that verse says. That verse does not say---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword--after the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Nor does it say---and shall be led away captive into all nations--after the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That verse says---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword--until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. That verse says---and shall be led away captive into all nations--until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

I agree: the passage does not say AFTER the times of the gentiles is fulfilled, but TILL the times of the gentiles is fulfilled.


Did the Jews fall by the sword, were the Jews lead captive into the nations, was Jerusalem trampled by the gentiles before Jesus' 1st century Audience passed away? Yes.



As far as I can tell, you don't argue---until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled---that this is not included among all the things that must be fulfilled before this generation can pass. You argue that it is included. Therefore, according to the text, your argument has to be this---and shall be led away captive into all nations--until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled---being what has to be fulfilled before this generation can pass.

The Jews were indeed led captive into the nations during the whole war of the Jews with the romans. They were sent to Egypt and a "great number of provinces" as slaves. This was indeed fulfilled before "this generation" of the 1st century passed away:

"So this Fronto slew all those that had been seditious, and robbers, who were impeached one by another. But of the young men he chose out the tallest, and most beautiful; and reserved them for the triumph. And as for the rest of the multitude, that were above seventeen years old, he put them into bonds, and sent them to the Egyptian mines. Titus also sent a great number into the provinces; as a present to them: that they might be destroyed upon their theatres, by the sword, and by the wild beasts. But those that were under seventeen years of age, were sold for slaves." (wars of the Jews 6.9.2)

"Now the number of those that were carried captive, during this whole war, was collected to be ninety-seven thousand." (wars of the Jews 6.9.3)


Your argument cannot instead be this---and shall be led away captive into all nations--that the end of this captivity is not even included among the things that must be fulfilled before this generation can pass.

According to Josephus the Jews were indeed carried away captive into nations during the Jewish Roman war. This did occur before the 1st century audience of Jesus passed away.


Your interpretation of this portion of the Discourse has been debunked.

I would disagree. The Jews did fall by the sword, were lead captive into the nations, and Jerusalem was trampled by the gentiles prior to the 1st century audience passing away.

Matthew has the celestial signs as occurring "immediately after the great tribulation". Luke has the celestial signs as occurring after the "times of the gentiles". So then do you hold the great tribulation to be equal to the time from 66-70ad to today?

Matthew 24:29 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;

Luke 21:24-25 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
“And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves,

Additionally, are the Jews presently captive in the nations today?

The question is, are you able to accept it, thus admit it? Probably not would be my guess. But if I have to be wrong about something, I'd rather it be that I'm wrong about this, that you instead are able to accept it, are able to admit it.

It's not as simple as you are making it out to be. If we could actually define what Jesus meant by "times of the gentiles" this would be a lot easier. However, scripture doesn't define the times of the gentiles, which results in the many, many different interpretations of the phrase.

However, as Jesus stated "this generation shall not pass away until all these occur" AFTER the "the times of gentiles" then I hold its fulfillment as 1st century. I would argue this allows for less speculation.

 
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claninja

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My position is in agreement with the concept of near/far fulfillment of prophecy explained in:

The Near/Far Phenomenon in Bible Prophecy

Prophecy may be fulfilled gradually and over a long period of time. I don't think we can put a check mark beside prophecies that have been fulfilled and look forward to the ones that do not seem, in our interpretation, to have been fulfilled. Perhaps this sounds like a combination of the historicist and idealist views of revelation.

Both preterits and futurists engage in that "yes or no" approach to prophecy, when prophecy is actually "being" fulfilled. In this thread, Zechariah's prophecies that have been fulfilled were mentioned. But it's difficult to say that Zech 14 has been fulfilled or that Zech 12 & 13 have been completely fulfilled.

Mar 13:19 In those days there will be great suffering such as the world has never before seen and will never again see.

There is a greek word tense called the "perfect" tense. It is not a "continuous" action, but is defined as a completed action that produces lasting effects.

This is how I view Biblical prophecy as related to the "type" (shadow) and "antitype" (fulfillment) interpretation method. The types of the OT pointed to Christ, the fulfillment/completion of them, which resulted in effects lasting up to the present.

I don't believe Biblical prophecy has a "continuous" fulfillment. Such is contradictory statement. When something is fulfilled or brought to completion it is finished. However, that doesn't mean the completion doesn't have lasting effects.

For example, Christ dying on the cross was prophesied, but this isn't continually happening now, it happened once, in the 1st century, in fulfillment of prophecy. The effects of this completion are eternal and last forever.



Was 66-70 AD the greatest disaster in history?


66-70ad, was punishment for "all the righteous bloodshed", "killing the vineyard owners son", and "not recognizing the time of God's visitation". Has anyone else in history been punished for that? Can there be any other earthly punishment greater than that?






The way "ALL" is used in the NT is problematic to our scientific minds. But even in daily conversations we may say "all" when we mean "most" or "a majority" or "a large number." At least I do :).

I agree that "all" doesn't always mean literally "all". However, considering that it was 1st century Jerusalem that would be punished for the all the righteous blood shed, I would argue that it was indeed the fulfillment of vengeance in regards to all that was written.

Zec 12:10 says, "They will look to me, the one whom they pierced; they will mourn over him" Did the Jews in 66-70 AD mourn specifically over Jesus or mourn over themselves and their disaster?

Again, I believe zechariah 12:10 fulfilled as scripture dictates: at Jesus crucifixion. This was completed.


John 19:36-37 For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: “Not one of his bones will be broken.” And again another Scripture says, “They will look on him whom they have pierced.”

I believe zechariah 12:12 fulfilled as the scripture dictates: around the time of Jerusalem's destruction



Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,

Why was Jesus' generation responsible for the blood of prophets from Abel to Zechariah?


Because Jesus said so:

Matthew 23:35-36 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Luke 11:49-50 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation.

The only way that anyone is righteous is through Jesus. Thus by killing Jesus, they were held responsible all the righteous bloodshed.
 
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DavidPT

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You probably mean to say, "Obviously a destroyed city can be what the mourning is all about."


Why would I have been meaning that if I was meaning that the mourning is not about a city that was destroyed in 70 AD, if the mourning was in regards to the one whom they have pierced? What would that have to do with mourning over a destroyed city in 70 AD?
 
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claninja

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How do you interpret Zec 14?

As mostly fulfilled with Christ's 1st advent

1.) Jesus' death is when the spoils were divided

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death

Luke 11:22 but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil.


2.) Jesus stood on the mount of olives just before ascending to the Father. It is by Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension that disarmed the authorities of the world.

Zecharaih 14:3-4 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Acts 1:9,12 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem,

Colossians 2:14- 15 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

3.) Christ's ascension results in the sending of the Spirit

Zecharaih 14:8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sead and half of them to the western sea.

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in me, asf the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

4.) The requirement to come to Jerusalem to celebrate the feast of booths is symbolic for the new covenant. We now come to heavenly Jerusalem (hebrews 12:22). If the coming to Jerusalem and celebrating the feast of booths are literal, it contradicts the new testament as

A.) Jesus states a time was coming when it would no longer be required to worship in Jerusalem (John 4:21).
B.) Paul states we don't need to celebrate the feasts as they were only a shadow. (colossians 2:16-17)

How do you interpret Rev 20:7-9?

Rev 20:7 Now when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to bring them together for the battle. They are as numerous as the grains of sand in the sea. 9 They went up on the broad plain of the earth and encircled the campof the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and devoured them completely.

I view Revelation 20:1-6 as a parable of the work of the Cross and its lasting effects. The 1,000 years symbolically pointing to the fulfillment of the David monarchy through Christ. How many years were there between David and Christ? 1,000.

1.) It is through Jesus' ministry, death, resurrection, and ascension that Satan was bound and cast out.
Revelation 20:1-3 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pita and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended.

Mark 3:27 But no one can enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. Then indeed he may plunder his house.

Luke 11:22 but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil

Matthew 12:29 Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house

John 12:31-32 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him

2.) When Satan is cast out, his time is short
Revelation 20:3 After that he must be released for a little while.

Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

3.) the binding and casting out of satan results in some given thrones with authority to judge, the 1st resurrection, and those in Christ being a kingdom of priests.

revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Matthew 19:28-29 Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.


I also view parts of revelation 19 as related to the Cross and the working of the Gospel

Revelation 19:17-19 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave,d both small and great.” And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

1.) the kings of the earth gathered against Jesus to crucify Him
Acts 4:25-27 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant,d said by the Holy Spirit,
“‘Why did the Gentiles rage, and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,against the Lord and against his Anointed’e—for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel
.

2.) We eat Christ's flesh and blood, who was the sacrifice on the mountains of Israel

Ezekiel 39:17-20 As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD: Speak to the birds of every sort and to all beasts of the field: ‘Assemble and come, gather from all around to the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you, a great sacrificial feast on the mountains of Israel, and you shall eat flesh and drink blood. You shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth—of rams, of lambs, and of he-goats, of bulls, all of them fat beasts of Bashan. And you shall eat fat till you are filled, and drink blood till you are drunk, at the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you. And you shall be filled at my table with horses and charioteers, with mighty men and all kinds of warriors,’ declares the Lord GOD.

John 6:53-56 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him

Thus I view the events of Gog and Magog as related to Christ's ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, sending of the Spirit, which resulted in satan being cast out for a little season to gather those against God's people to persecute.

Revelation 12:11 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
 
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Andrewn

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The types of the OT pointed to Christ, the fulfillment/completion of them, which resulted in effects lasting up to the present. . . . For example, Christ dying on the cross was prophesied, . . . The effects of this completion are eternal and last forever.
The effects will not only last forever but will grow in a crescendo until the redemption of our bodies and submitting the Kingdom to God. Every Jew knew that “the times of the Gentiles” were the times when the Gentiles ruled the earth, and that it would end when the Messiah established His kingdom over all and ended Gentile domination. Then Jerusalem would be free from threat, and all the Gentiles would acknowledge her sovereignty.

In other words, Jesus was saying that Jerusalem would be trodden down until the Second Coming and the end of the world. The Book of Revelation refers to “the times of the Gentiles” by the term “the kingdom of the world” (Revelation 11:15). This where we disagree.

Christian Zionism – No Other Foundation
 
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DavidPT

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In other words, Jesus was saying that Jerusalem would be trodden down until the Second Coming and the end of the world. The Book of Revelation refers to “the times of the Gentiles” by the term “the kingdom of the world” (Revelation 11:15). This where we disagree.


The question is, in what sense was He meaning in regards to Jerusalem? I tend to think He wasn't meaning in the literal sense, as in Jerusalem a literal city in the ME. And I'm Premil. Generally, Premils tend to take things in a literal sense. A lot of times I do take things in the literal sense except for the times when the literal sense clearly results in nonsense.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Obviously, the times of the Gentiles can't be fulfilled until the 42 months have been fulfilled. Obviously, this 42 months meant here are meaning the same 42 months in Revelation 13:5. There is nothing in Revelation 13 that could be meaning between 66 AD to 70 AD, which Preterists would need to be meaning to make their interpretation of Luke 21:24 work. There are 18 verses in Revelation 13. So which verse is meaning 70 AD when Jerusalem is destroyed? I don't see anything like that anywhere in that chapter.
 
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Andrewn

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[Zec 14] As mostly fulfilled with Christ's 1st advent
I accept figurative interpretations but this seems quite fanciful.

The 1,000 years symbolically pointing to the fulfillment of the David monarchy through Christ. How many years were there between David and Christ? 1,000.
This is even less likely. I'm not ready to accept that the whole of Revelation has taken place in the 1st century. None of the Church Fathers considered this possibility.
 
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Andrewn

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The question is, in what sense was He meaning in regards to Jerusalem? I tend to think He wasn't meaning in the literal sense, as in Jerusalem a literal city in the ME. And I'm Premil. Generally, Premils tend to take things in a literal sense. A lot of times I do take things in the literal sense except for the times when the literal sense clearly results in nonsense.
Until perhaps 2 yrs ago, I believed the eternal Kingdom was in the heavens. Then I read NT Wright's arguments in favor of an earthly Kingdom. So, I stay agnostic about the matter and consider it not very relevant as the earth and the heavens will be renewed anyway. The important point is that both you and I expect a Kingdom. But you expect a Millennial Kingdom and I expect an Eternal Kingdom.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Obviously, this 42 months meant here are meaning the same 42 months in Revelation 13:5. There is nothing in Revelation 13 that could be meaning between 66 AD to 70 AD, which Preterists would need to be meaning to make their interpretation of Luke 21:24 work.
I'm not a preterits but I believe these have taken place in the 1st century.

Obviously, the times of the Gentiles can't be fulfilled until the 42 months have been fulfilled. . . . There are 18 verses in Revelation 13. So which verse is meaning 70 AD when Jerusalem is destroyed? I don't see anything like that anywhere in that chapter.
You've been posting in this Forum and have seen interpretations for the Beast as Nero, as Titus, as the Pope, as Muhammad, etc. I don't need to repeat the arguments but the point is that the 42-month persecution has taken place.

However, both you and I still expect the Antichrist. The difference is that the AC you expect is the Beast from the sea and the AC I expect is Gog prince of Magog.
 
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DavidPT

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I'm not a preterits but I believe these have taken place in the 1st century.


Why would you think the beast and false prophet already got cast into the LOF while they were still alive, in the first century? There has been no one cast into the LOF yet. So why do you and Preterists think that?

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


This is meaning the same beast and false prophet in Revelation 13. And according to the text they are cast into the LOF while still alive. If the 42 months in Revelation 13 were fulfilled in the first century, the same has to be true of Revelation 19:20 as well. The fact they are thrown into the LOF alive proves they are living entities of some kind. IOW one can't spiritualize Revelation 19:20. The beast and fp literally get cast into the LOF, the same way satan and his demons will, and the same way humans will.

Some of us are to believe that the beast and fp have already been cast into the LOF 2000 years ago??? I might believe it if were in second grade or something and didn't know better, but as an adult, why would I want to believe a fairy tale like that, that the beast and fp were already cast into the LOF 2000 years ago?

If your position is not that Revelation 19:20 is meaning 2000 years ago, but is meaning future still, how in the world do you square that with your interpretation of Revelation 13 and the 42 months you claim were fulfilled 2000 years ago?
 
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claninja

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I accept figurative interpretations but this seems quite fanciful.

Which part specifically is fanciful, the belief the Jesus stood on the mount of olives before his ascension? that the living waters is the spirit sent after Christ's ascension? that the Jerusalem we come to is now the heavenly one? or that the feast of booths was a shadow of Christ?

Eusebius position on the zechariah 14:4 is also in agreement.

"Which it is possible for us to see literally fulfilled in another way even to-day, since believers in Christ all congregate from all parts of the world, not as of old time because of the glory of Jerusalem, nor that they may worship in the ancient Temple at Jerusalem, but they rest there that they may learn both about the city being taken and devastated as the prophets foretold, and that they may worship at the Mount of Olives opposite to the city, whither the glory of the Lord migrated when it left the former city. There stood in truth according to the common and received account the feet of our Lord and Saviour, Himself the Word of God, through that tabernacle of humanity He had borne up the Mount of Olives to the cave that is shewn there; there He prayed and delivered to His disciples on the summit of the Mount of Olives the mysteries of His end, and thence He made His Ascension into heaven, as Luke tells us in the Acts of the Apostles, saying that while the apostles were with Him on the Mount of Olives:

"While they beheld he was taken up, and a cloud received him out of their sight. And as they gazed steadfastly into heaven while he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing into heaven? This same Jesus that is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."


Eusebius is in agreement that the living waters of zechariah 14:8 are related to the sending of the Spirit and spreading of the Gospel:

"And in that day it says: "Living water shall come forth out of Jerusalem." This is that spiritual, sweet, life-giving and saving drink of the teaching of Christ, of which He speaks in the Gospel according to John, when instructing the Samaritan woman:

"If thou knewest who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink, thou wouldst have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

This was the living water, then, that came forth from Jerusalem? For it was thence that its Gospel went forth, and its heralds filled the world, which is meant by the words: "The living water shall go forth to the first sea and the last sea," by which is meant the bounds of the whole world, that toward the Eastern Ocean being called "the first sea," that toward the West being meant by "the last sea," which, indeed, the living water of saving Gospel teaching has filled. Of which He also taught, when He said: "Whosoever shall drink of the water, which I shall give him, shall never thirst." And again He says: "Rivers of living water shall flow out of his belly, springing |36 up into everlasting life." And again: "If any thirst, let him come unto me and drink."

Eusebius is in agreement that the Lord being king of the earth in zechariah 14:8 is in regards to Christ's 1st advent and destruction of Jerusalem.

"Then after the refreshing saving spiritual blood has fallen on every race of mankind from Jerusalem, which is more clearly described in another place in the words: "A law shall go forth from Sion, and the Word of the Lord from Jerusalem, and it shall judge in the midst of the nations," it says: "The Lord shall be King." He shall not be King in Jerusalem, nor of the Jewish race; but, over all the earth in that day. And this agrees with what I have quoted from the Psalms, where it was said: "The Lord reigneth over the nations," and also: "Tell it among the nations, the Lord reigneth." The prophecy is that this will be fulfilled in the days of the Lord. For the whole prophecy opens with: "Behold, the days of the Lord come, and these things shall come to pass." And what is meant by "these things," but the siege of Jerusalem, and the passing of the Lord to the Mount of Olives, according to the words, "The Lord shall come," and the events of the day of His Passion, and the living water, flowing in all the world, and to crown all, the Kingdom of the Lord ruling over all the nations, and His One Name, filling all the earth—in short, what I have briefly shown to be fulfilled?"

Do you hold that we will literally be required to come to earthly Jerusalem and partake in the literal feast of booths in the future, despite that being contradictory to the NT teachings?
 
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claninja

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This is even less likely. I'm not ready to accept that the whole of Revelation has taken place in the 1st century. None of the Church Fathers considered this possibility.

I'm not arguing that the whole of Revelation is fulfilled. I'm arguing that revelation 20 is a parable for the work of Christ.

The millennium being symbolic for the work of Christ is a "less likely" position?

So then you don't believe the cross bound and cast out satan even though other NT scripture declares it did? You don't believe the 1st resurrection is being born again? You don't believe we are now a kingdom of priests as a result of the cross?

While Augustine doesn't hold that exact same position as I do in regards to the symbolism of the 1,000 years, he is in agreement that is in regards to the 1st advent of Christ.

"The Lord Jesus Christ Himself says, "No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man,"[703]—meaning by the strong man the devil, because he had power to take captive the human race; and meaning by his goods which he was to take, those who had been held by the devil in divers sins and iniquities, but were to become believers in Himself. It was then for the binding of this strong one that the apostle saw in the Apocalypse "an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a chain in his hand. And he laid hold," he says, "on the dragon, that old serpent, which is called the devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"—that is, bridled and restrained his power so that he could not seduce and gain possession of those who were to be freed. "

"But while the devil is bound, the saints reign with Christ during the same thousand years, understood in the same way, that is, of the time of His first coming."

The 1st resurrection according to augustine is in agreement

"After that He adds the words, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself."[694] As yet He does not speak of the second resurrection, that is, the resurrection of the body, which shall be in the end, but of the first, which now is. It is for the sake of making this distinction that He says, "The hour is coming, and now is." Now this resurrection regards not the body, but the soul. For souls, too, have a death of their own in wickedness and sins, whereby they are the dead of whom the same lips say, "Suffer the dead to bury[695]—that is, let those who are dead in soul bury them that are dead in body. It is of these dead, then—the dead in ungodliness and wickedness—that He says, "The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live." "They that hear," that is, they who obey, believe, and persevere to the end. Here no difference is made between the good and the bad. For it is good for all men to hear His voice and live, by passing to the life of godliness from the death of ungodliness. Of this death the Apostle Paul says, "Therefore all are dead, and He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them and rose again."[696] Thus all, without one exception, were dead in sins, whether original or voluntary sins, sins of ignorance, or sins committed against knowledge; and for all the dead there died the one only person who lived, that is, who had no sin whatever, in order that they who live by the remission of their sins should live, not to themselves, but to Him who died for all, for our sins, and rose again for our justification, that we, believing in Him who justifies the ungodly, and being justified from ungodliness or quickened from death, may be able to attain to the first resurrection which now is. For in this first resurrection none have a part save those who shall be eternally blessed; but in the second, of which He goes on to speak, all, as we shall learn, have a part, both the blessed and the wretched. The one is the resurrection of mercy, the other of judgment. And therefore it is written in the psalm, "I will sing of mercy and of judgment: unto Thee, O Lord, will I sing"
 
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Andrewn

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Why would you think the beast and false prophet already got cast into the LOF while they were still alive, in the first century? There has been no one cast into the LOF yet. So why do you and Preterists think that?

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.


This is meaning the same beast and false prophet in Revelation 13. And according to the text they are cast into the LOF while still alive. If the 42 months in Revelation 13 were fulfilled in the first century, the same has to be true of Revelation 19:20 as well. The fact they are thrown into the LOF alive proves they are living entities of some kind. IOW one can't spiritualize Revelation 19:20. The beast and fp literally get cast into the LOF, the same way satan and his demons will, and the same way humans will.
One needs to keep in mind the following:

1. Nowhere does Revelation say that the Beast and FB were cast into the LOF at the end of the 42 months.

2. The 42 months could represent 1260 years rather than days or could represent an insignificant evil reign.

3. The Beast and FP are not only people but also kingdoms, evil world systems.

Interpretations of the 42 months regarding Nero and regarding Titus are well-known. There is also an interesting interpretation about the Papacy being inaugurated in 538 AD and abolished 1260 years later by Napoleon in 1798 AD. The point is that the 42 months don't have to be literal and even if they were, they do not represent the end of evil political and ideological systems. The harlot of Babylon still rides the Beast.

Some of us are to believe that the beast and fp have already been cast into the LOF 2000 years ago??? I might believe it if were in second grade or something and didn't know better, but as an adult, why would I want to believe a fairy tale like that, that the beast and fp were already cast into the LOF 2000 years ago?
One has to concede that Premil is the easier interpretation of revelation. The influential church historian Eusebius of Caesarea wrote that Papias had been affected by a false millenarian teaching and denigrated him as simple minded.

If your position is not that Revelation 19:20 is meaning 2000 years ago, but is meaning future still, how in the world do you square that with your interpretation of Revelation 13 and the 42 months you claim were fulfilled 2000 years ago?
I would answer with the following:

1. Rev 19:20 doesn't take place immediately after the 42 Ms.

2. The Beast is not a single person but a world system with many human faces.

3. When the Lord Jesus talked about Gehenna, He didn't describe it as a future but rather as a concurrent state.

There are a lot of Christian subjects I like to talk about. Eschatology is not one of them. I prefer to read other people's ideas (so long they're not dispensational).
 
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sovereigngrace

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I'm not arguing that the whole of Revelation is fulfilled. I'm arguing that revelation 20 is a parable for the work of Christ.

The millennium being symbolic for the work of Christ is a "less likely" position?

So then you don't believe the cross bound and cast out satan even though other NT scripture declares it did? You don't believe the 1st resurrection is being born again? You don't believe we are now a kingdom of priests as a result of the cross?

While Augustine doesn't hold that exact same position as I do in regards to the symbolism of the 1,000 years, he is in agreement that is in regards to the 1st advent of Christ.

"The Lord Jesus Christ Himself says, "No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man,"[703]—meaning by the strong man the devil, because he had power to take captive the human race; and meaning by his goods which he was to take, those who had been held by the devil in divers sins and iniquities, but were to become believers in Himself. It was then for the binding of this strong one that the apostle saw in the Apocalypse "an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a chain in his hand. And he laid hold," he says, "on the dragon, that old serpent, which is called the devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"—that is, bridled and restrained his power so that he could not seduce and gain possession of those who were to be freed. "

"But while the devil is bound, the saints reign with Christ during the same thousand years, understood in the same way, that is, of the time of His first coming."

The 1st resurrection according to augustine is in agreement

"After that He adds the words, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself."[694] As yet He does not speak of the second resurrection, that is, the resurrection of the body, which shall be in the end, but of the first, which now is. It is for the sake of making this distinction that He says, "The hour is coming, and now is." Now this resurrection regards not the body, but the soul. For souls, too, have a death of their own in wickedness and sins, whereby they are the dead of whom the same lips say, "Suffer the dead to bury[695]—that is, let those who are dead in soul bury them that are dead in body. It is of these dead, then—the dead in ungodliness and wickedness—that He says, "The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live." "They that hear," that is, they who obey, believe, and persevere to the end. Here no difference is made between the good and the bad. For it is good for all men to hear His voice and live, by passing to the life of godliness from the death of ungodliness. Of this death the Apostle Paul says, "Therefore all are dead, and He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them and rose again."[696] Thus all, without one exception, were dead in sins, whether original or voluntary sins, sins of ignorance, or sins committed against knowledge; and for all the dead there died the one only person who lived, that is, who had no sin whatever, in order that they who live by the remission of their sins should live, not to themselves, but to Him who died for all, for our sins, and rose again for our justification, that we, believing in Him who justifies the ungodly, and being justified from ungodliness or quickened from death, may be able to attain to the first resurrection which now is. For in this first resurrection none have a part save those who shall be eternally blessed; but in the second, of which He goes on to speak, all, as we shall learn, have a part, both the blessed and the wretched. The one is the resurrection of mercy, the other of judgment. And therefore it is written in the psalm, "I will sing of mercy and of judgment: unto Thee, O Lord, will I sing"

Name one early writer or one credible orthodox writer that taught this? I don't know of any. It is far-fetched and belongs to the Full Preterist camp.
 
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Andrewn

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Which part specifically is fanciful, the belief the Jesus stood on the mount of olives before his ascension? that the living waters is the spirit sent after Christ's ascension? that the Jerusalem we come to is now the heavenly one? or that the feast of booths was a shadow of Christ?
I have to confess that my previous comment was a lazy answer. But previously, I stated my belief that the fulfillment of prophecy, which started with the 1st coming of Christ, is building up to a huge crescendo at His 2nd coming. You can call it a near/far fulfillment of prophecy. It is similar to the theological concept of "already" and "not yet."

This type of thinking leads me to accept most of what you, and Eusebius, wrote. The prophecies will be completed when "This same Jesus that is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." So, I don't have to choose between your "yes" and the Futurists' "no."

There are aspects of Zechariah that are yet to take place, for example:

Zec 14:6 On that day, there will be no light.
Splendid things will disappear.
7 On one day known to the Lord, there will be neither day nor night,
but at evening time there will be light.
8 On that day, running water will flow out from Jerusalem,
half of it to the Dead Sea
and half of it to the Mediterranean;
this will happen during the summer and the fall.

Compare this to Revelation:

Rev 21:23 The city doesn’t need the sun or the moon to shine on it, because God’s glory is its light, and its lamp is the Lamb.

Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of life-giving water,shining like crystal, flowing from the throne of God and the Lamb
 
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Andrewn

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The millennium being symbolic for the work of Christ is a "less likely" position? So then you don't believe the cross bound and cast out satan even though other NT scripture declares it did? You don't believe the 1st resurrection is being born again? You don't believe we are now a kingdom of priests as a result of the cross?
You didn't have to make these unsubstantiated accusations. I agree with St Augustine and disagreed with your following statements:

1. "I view Revelation 20:1-6 as a parable of the work of the Cross and its lasting effects. The 1,000 years symbolically pointing to the fulfillment of the David monarchy through Christ. How many years were there between David and Christ? 1,000."

2. "I also view parts of revelation 19 as related to the Cross and the working of the Gospel." In support of this, you quote Rev 19:17-19; Eze 39:17-20; and Joh 6:53-56.

3. "Thus I view the events of Gog and Magog as related to Christ's ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, sending of the Spirit, which resulted in satan being cast out for a little season to gather those against God's people to persecute."

I should have been more specific in my previous response.


 
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claninja

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Name one early writer or one credible orthodox writer that taught this?

There are no early church fathers that associate the 1,000 years as symbolic for Jesus ascending to the throne in heaven in fulfillment of "David never lacking a man to sit on the throne".

There are 2 main writers whose commentary on revelation is that of the 1,000 years being in regards to the 1st advent, which is in agreement with my position: Victorinus and Agustustine.

From Augustine:
"But while the devil is bound, the saints reign with Christ during the same thousand years, understood in the same way, that is, of the time of His first coming"

Augustine explanation of the 1,000 years is that he believes it is the 1,000 years in relation to the death of Christ occurring at the 6th millennium
"And he laid hold," he says, "on the dragon, that old serpent, which is called the devil and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,"—that is, bridled and restrained his power so that he could not seduce and gain possession of those who were to be freed. Now the thousand years may be understood in two ways, so far as occurs to me: either because these things happen in the sixth thousand of years or sixth millennium (the latter part of which is now passing), as if during the sixth day, which is to be followed by a Sabbath which has no evening, the endless rest of the saints, so that, speaking of a part under the name of the whole, he calls the last part of the millennium—"

Victorinus also associates the 1,000 years with the 1st advent of Christ, but then goes on to explay that the 1,000 are related to the 6th day or 6th age and that after that satan will be released from pit for a little seaon of 3.5 years.

"Those years wherein Satan is bound are in the first advent of Christ, even to the end of the age; and they are called a thousand, according to that mode of speaking, wherein a part is signified by the whole, just as is that passage, the word which He commanded for a thousand generations, although they are not a thousand. Moreover that he says, and he cast him into the abyss, he says this, because the devil, excluded from the hearts of believers, began to take possession of the wicked, in whose hearts, blinded day by day, he is shut up as if in a profound abyss. And he shut him up, says he, and put a seal upon him, that he should not deceive the nations until the thousand years should be finished. He shut the door upon him, it is said, that is, he forbade and restrained his seducing those who belong to Christ. Moreover, he put a seal upon him, because it is hidden who belong to the side of the devil, and who to that of Christ. For we know not of those who seem to stand whether they shall not fall, and of those who are down it is uncertain whether they may rise. Moreover, that he says that he is bound and shut up, that he may not seduce the nations, the nations signify the Church, seeing that of them it itself is formed, and which being seduced, he previously held until, he says, the thousand years should be completed, that is, what is left of the sixth day, to wit, of the sixth age, which subsists for a thousand years; after this he must be loosed for a little season. The little season signifies three years and six months, in which with all his power the devil will avenge himself under Antichrist against the Church"

So While I agree with the early writers that the 1,000 years is associated with Christ's 1st advent, I disagree that the 1,000 years is in regards to the 6th age or 6000th year.

Additionally, I agree with the amil position that 1,000 years is in regards to Christ's 1st advent, but I disagree with the amil position that it is symbolic for the time period between the 1st and 2nd advent because satan comes at the end of the 1,000 years according to revelation, and not Jesus. The judgment does not come until after satan's little season.

Thus my position, is that the 1,000 year is symbolic for Christ fulfilling the promise of David never lacking a man on the throne, which resulted in Satan being bound and cast out, the apostles judging Israel, being born again, and those in Christ being a kingdom of priests.

I view this all as fulfilled/brought to completion at Christ's 1st advent (the cross), which results in lasting effects for those in the new covenant.

I don't know of any. It is far-fetched and belongs to the Full Preterist camp.

Many early church fathers taught chiliasm, such as Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Commodian, Lactantius, Methodius, and Apollinaris of Laodicea.

Do you believe in chiliasm because the early church writers believed in chiliasm?

The early church fathers are pretty uniform (for the most part) on the 1st advent. However, the church fathers are all over the place with their eschatology.
 
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claninja

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You didn't have to make these unsubstantiated accusations. I agree with St Augustine and disagreed with your following statements:

You were a little general on your response. so it seemed you disagreed with all of it.

1. "I view Revelation 20:1-6 as a parable of the work of the Cross and its lasting effects. The 1,000 years symbolically pointing to the fulfillment of the David monarchy through Christ. How many years were there between David and Christ? 1,000."

You don't believe Jesus fulfilled the promise that David would never lack a man to sit on the throne?

How many years were there between David and Jesus?


2. "I also view parts of revelation 19 as related to the Cross and the working of the Gospel." In support of this, you quote Rev 19:17-19; Eze 39:17-20; and Joh 6:53-56.

You don't believe the kings of the earth gathered against Christ at his 1st advent? the 1st century church did (acts 4:25-27, revelation 19:17-19).

Did you eat the flesh and drink the blood of God's sacrifice or no? (John 6:53-56)

We should always you scripture to interpret scripture. If you disagree with me applying these scriptures in attempt to understand symbolic scripture of Ezekiel and Revelation, what scripture would you use to show how Revelation 19 and Gog/Magog should be interpreted in order to prevent personal interpretation?


3. "Thus I view the events of Gog and Magog as related to Christ's ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, sending of the Spirit, which resulted in satan being cast out for a little season to gather those against God's people to persecute."

Do you believe satan has 2 little seasons?
 
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