Fish finger fossils show the beginnings of hands

Bungle_Bear

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Did he evolve from a human to a sheep then a wolf or a human to a wolf then a sheep?
And there we have it. The creationist belief that a human could evolve into a sheep then a wolf.

You clearly have no idea what ToE actually says, yet you think you can shoot it down with your creationist drivel. We all enjoy a good laugh at others' expense. Keep it coming :)
 
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essentialsaltes

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Creationists should just be happy that now that Elpistostege has filled the gap between Tiktaalik and Acanthostege, there are now two gaps on either side of it.
 
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pitabread

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Made up stories.

If they had evidence they'd present it. Churches all over the world would spill millions to dethrone the theory of evolution... but instead innuendos and fantasies.

This is especially revealing any time there are legal challenges re: the theory of evolution. Creationists have a long track record of losing cases when they have to present evidence in a court of law.
 
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SkyWriting

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In scientific usage, "random" simply means unpredictable. It says nothing about cause or purpose.
And "unpredictable" is simply a lack of knowledge about the forces involved.
And yes, it's due to not knowing the cause of the result. In fact the result
always explains the cause in some extent. The direction, the velocity,
the power involved, etc.
 
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essentialsaltes

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This is especially revealing any time there are legal challenges re: the theory of evolution. Creationists have a long track record of losing cases when they have to present evidence in a court of law.

Well, who knows what might happen in a court of law. And they can keep trying. I think it's more important that the theory of evolution won the battle in open scientific debate more than 150 years ago, and since then it has become only stronger and more detailed and better founded in genetics, which were unknown in Darwin's day.

The forces of antievolution don't even try for victories in science. They prefer the court of public opinion, or the court of law. Because on the meat of the matter, they can't win.
 
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Subduction Zone

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And "unpredictable" is simply a lack of knowledge about the forces involved.
And yes, it's due to not knowing the cause of the result. In fact the result
always explains the cause in some extent. The direction, the velocity,
the power involved, etc.
Sorry, but that is Newtonian thinking. Newtonian only describes events on a gross level. You are assuming that if we knew more we could predict better. There are all sorts of exceptions to that claim. At best we can only say that we do not know if the universe is deterministic or not.
 
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SkyWriting

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Sorry, but that is Newtonian thinking. Newtonian only describes events on a gross level. You are assuming that if we knew more we could predict better. There are all sorts of exceptions to that claim. At best we can only say that we do not know if the universe is deterministic or not.
If we know more, we can predict better.
I'll go with that. Tanks!
 
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Subduction Zone

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If we know more, we can predict better.
I'll go with that. Tanks!
But that is not the case with the quantum world. All we can do is give a statistical approach. Now we may be able to eventually or the world may really only be based upon statistics. Your hopes are not supported by observation.

Even on a macro level there are chaotic effects. There are various chaos science toys, such as double rod or more pendulums. We can mathematically simulate perfect ones, but that only simulates one idealized example. In the real world we can never know distances to an exact point.
 
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Speedwell

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If we know more, we can predict better.
I'll go with that. Tanks!
That is a philosophical opinion which you are welcome to, but don't kid yourself that it is empirically verifiable.
 
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SkyWriting

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But that is not the case with the quantum world.

We don't live there. And again "the unknown" is the only reason for the random label. Because we don't know, makes it random.
 
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DaveISBA

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Researchers have discovered the fossil of a fish with finger-like digits in its fin that lived 380 million years ago, according to a new study. And they believe it bridges the evolutionary gap between marine and land vertebrates as one of the oldest examples of a skeletal pattern resembling a hand.

The study published Wednesday in the journal Nature.

"Today we announce in the journal Nature our discovery of a complete specimen of a tetrapod-like fish, called Elpistostege, which reveals extraordinary new information about the evolution of the vertebrate hand," said John Long, study author and Strategic Professor in Palaeontology at Flinders University in Australia.

"This is the first time that we have unequivocally discovered fingers locked in a fin with fin-rays in any known fish. The articulating digits in the fin are like the finger bones found in the hands of most animals."


In the phylogenetic tree, this species is near the justly-famous Tiktaalik.
It's still a (fin of a fish) and you failed to post the last portion of the article which is very telling!
"the fin retains lepidotrichia (fin rays) distal to the radials. We (suggest) that the vertebrate hand arose primarily from a skeletal pattern buried within (the fairly typical aquatic pectoral fin) of elpistostegalians. Elpistostege is (potentially) the sister taxon of all other tetrapods, and its appendages further blur the line between fish and land vertebrates." my emphasis!
In the video (Finding Tiktaalik) Neil Shubin co-discoverer of tikaatik said after 26 years of finding lots of fish and tetrapods fossils but no link between the two. They found one that they claim is an intermediate fossil...tikaatik. When as Darwin stated, and others have agreed, there should be a truly enormous amount of intermediates in the geological layers but all researchers can say is Elpistostege is potentially and they suggest? Tiktaalik and Elpistostege that are claimed to be intermediates are none the less classified as (lobe-finned fish) which can be seen today!
 
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Subduction Zone

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We don't live there. And again "the unknown" is the only reason for the random label. Because we don't know, makes it random.
We do live there. That is our world. Now by the time we get up to our level the statistics make many things almost a surety, but that does not apply at all levels.
 
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Subduction Zone

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It's still a (fin of a fish) and you failed to post the last portion of the article which is very telling!
"the fin retains lepidotrichia (fin rays) distal to the radials. We (suggest) that the vertebrate hand arose primarily from a skeletal pattern buried within (the fairly typical aquatic pectoral fin) of elpistostegalians. Elpistostege is (potentially) the sister taxon of all other tetrapods, and its appendages further blur the line between fish and land vertebrates." my emphasis!
In the video (Finding Tiktaalik) Neil Shubin co-discoverer of tikaatik said after 26 years of finding lots of fish and tetrapods fossils but no link between the two. They found one that they claim is an intermediate fossil...tikaatik. When as Darwin stated, and others have agreed, there should be an truly enormous amount of intermediates in the geological layers but all researchers can say is Elpistostege is potentially and they suggest? Tiktaalik and Elpistostege that are claimed to be intermediates are none the less classified as (lobe-finned fish) which can be seen today!
I see that you did not understand the article. Why not ask questions? Your object that lobe fin fished exist today is as poor of an argument as claiming that Americans cannot be descended from Europeans since there are still Europeans today. Never end a debate on your poorest point.

By the way, you should first learn some of the basics. There are countless intermediate fossils. The "missing" intermediates were only between a relatively minor step. Now they found it. That it is an intermediate is not really debatable. You might deny it, but then you take on the burden of proof.
 
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Speedwell

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Causal determinism.

"Causal determinism is, roughly speaking, the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature. The idea is ancient, but first became subject to clarification and mathematical analysis in the eighteenth century. Determinism is deeply connected with our understanding of the physical sciences and their explanatory ambitions, on the one hand, and with our views about human free action on the other. In both of these general areas there is no agreement over whether determinism is true (or even whether it can be known true or false), and what the import for human agency would be in either case."
--Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy​
 
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DaveISBA

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I see that you did not understand the article. Why not ask questions? Your object that lobe fin fished exist today is as poor of an argument as claiming that Americans cannot be descended from Europeans since there are still Europeans today. Never end a debate on your poorest point.

By the way, you should first learn some of the basics. There are countless intermediate fossils. The "missing" intermediates were only between a relatively minor step. Now they found it. That it is an intermediate is not really debatable. You might deny it, but then you take on the burden of proof.
Take on the burden of proof? OK! The paleontological facts are as follows from those who are actually searching for the observable evidence!
From an article dated Feb 19, 2013: ”Evolutionary stasis is an alternative scientific interpretation to the widely accepted Neo-Darwinism. It means that most species show little evolutionary change through history, instead, evolution occurs more abruptly and it can result in one species becoming two different species. The theory originated among paleontologists who study fossils. They found that (no intermediate forms of fossils exist).” My Emphasis on the last sentence! https://phys.org/news/2013-02-species-sudden.html

Jeffrey H. Schwartz PhD, an American physical anthropologist and professor of biological anthropology at the University of Pittsburgh, who teaches with an evolutionary perspective! (Sudden Origins): p. 89
"Given that evolution, according to Darwin, was in a continual state of motion, with ongoing but slow and gradual change accruing over long periods of time, it followed logically that the fossil record should be rife with examples of transitional forms leading from the less to more evolved" "fossils were assessed in terms of whether they validated Darwin's evolutionary predictions, a clear picture of slow, gradual evolution, with smooth transitions and transformations from fossils of one period to another, was not forthcoming Instead of filling the gaps in the fossil record with so-called missing links, most paleontologists found themselves facing a situation in which there were only gaps in the fossil record, with no evidence of transformational evolutionary intermediates between documented fossil species."
 
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Occams Barber

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Take on the burden of proof? OK! The paleontological facts are as follows from those who are actually searching for the observable evidence!
From an article dated Feb 19, 2013: ”Evolutionary stasis is an alternative scientific interpretation to the widely accepted Neo-Darwinism. It means that most species show little evolutionary change through history, instead, evolution occurs more abruptly and it can result in one species becoming two different species. The theory originated among paleontologists who study fossils. They found that (no intermediate forms of fossils exist).” My Emphasis on the last sentence! https://phys.org/news/2013-02-species-sudden.html

Jeffrey H. Schwartz PhD, an American physical anthropologist and professor of biological anthropology at the University of Pittsburgh, who teaches with an evolutionary perspective! (Sudden Origins): p. 89
"Given that evolution, according to Darwin, was in a continual state of motion, with ongoing but slow and gradual change accruing over long periods of time, it followed logically that the fossil record should be rife with examples of transitional forms leading from the less to more evolved" "fossils were assessed in terms of whether they validated Darwin's evolutionary predictions, a clear picture of slow, gradual evolution, with smooth transitions and transformations from fossils of one period to another, was not forthcoming Instead of filling the gaps in the fossil record with so-called missing links, most paleontologists found themselves facing a situation in which there were only gaps in the fossil record, with no evidence of transformational evolutionary intermediates between documented fossil species."


What's your point?

The concept of stasis has been around since the 1970s when Eldredge and Gould included it as part of their concept of Punctuated Equilibrium. The idea basically suggests that evolution could, sometimes, occur in bursts rather than the slow gradual process envisaged by Darwin.
  • PE does not suggest that evolution is wrong - just that evolution can take place in bursts
  • PE does not suggest that slow, gradual evolution doesn't happen
  • There is nothing about PE that would invalidate the suggestion that this discovery represents a transitional fossil

OB
EDIT: If you'd like to know more about stasis this article may be useful:
Stasis - Evolutionary Biology - Oxford Bibliographies
 
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Subduction Zone

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Take on the burden of proof? OK! The paleontological facts are as follows from those who are actually searching for the observable evidence!
From an article dated Feb 19, 2013: ”Evolutionary stasis is an alternative scientific interpretation to the widely accepted Neo-Darwinism. It means that most species show little evolutionary change through history, instead, evolution occurs more abruptly and it can result in one species becoming two different species. The theory originated among paleontologists who study fossils. They found that (no intermediate forms of fossils exist).” My Emphasis on the last sentence! https://phys.org/news/2013-02-species-sudden.html

Jeffrey H. Schwartz PhD, an American physical anthropologist and professor of biological anthropology at the University of Pittsburgh, who teaches with an evolutionary perspective! (Sudden Origins): p. 89
"Given that evolution, according to Darwin, was in a continual state of motion, with ongoing but slow and gradual change accruing over long periods of time, it followed logically that the fossil record should be rife with examples of transitional forms leading from the less to more evolved" "fossils were assessed in terms of whether they validated Darwin's evolutionary predictions, a clear picture of slow, gradual evolution, with smooth transitions and transformations from fossils of one period to another, was not forthcoming Instead of filling the gaps in the fossil record with so-called missing links, most paleontologists found themselves facing a situation in which there were only gaps in the fossil record, with no evidence of transformational evolutionary intermediates between documented fossil species."
You failed in your burden of proof by not understanding the article that you used. They are talking about the very small changes from one species to another. The speciation that they are talking about is that of Homo erectus to Homo heidelbergensis or Homo heidelbergensis to Homo sapiens. On that very fine scale changes appear to be sudden.

Once again learning the terminology and asking questions is what you should be doing.

That article does not imply that more general transitional fossils are not to be found.


Transitional fossil - Wikipedia



The above article is a good starting point to understand this concept.

"A transitional fossil is any fossilized remains of a life form that exhibits traits common to both an ancestral group and its derived descendant group."

Transitional does not necessarily mean ancestral, but they are clear evidence for evolution.
 
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Astrophile

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It has no desires. It follows the laws of chemistry.



So does the formation of a snowflake, but it doesn't violate the law of entropy.

So does the growth of a seed, or the development of an embryo (either in an egg or in a uterus).
 
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