The seven kings of Revelation 17:10

nolidad · Mar 15, 2020

Davy said:
No, actually I have not. There are 2 different beasts revealed in Revelation 13. The 1st one is a kingdom beast. The "another beast" starting at verse 11 is the 2nd beast and is a beast king (related to the beast king idea in the Book of Daniel, for all the historical beasts represented a king and a kingdom). Instead what many here have done, is to wrongly assign the kingdom beast of Rev.13:1 as the beast king. So what you're accusing me of it's actually what others are doing.

Wrong wrong wrong.

Nebuchadnezzar was not a kingdom nor the Medes and Pewrsians and Alexander! these were people!

The lamb with horns is a religious not a political or religious figure! Everything he does is religious in nature.

I have never heard of religious leaders to worship a kingdom.

The beast out of the sea is the antichrist! The culmination of the Daniel prophecies and the Olivet discourse. the lamb with horns is the false prophet. And at Jesus returns he throws people ( not a kngdom ) into the lake of fire. SDimple grammar alone rules out the beast being a kingdom!

Davy said:
The idea of a beast and false prophet for the end are only ROLES the coming Antichrist will play. I know that just destroys... men's little doctrines all dreamt up about the false prophet, but so be it, as there is NO mention of the false prophet doing miracles in the Rev.13 chapter. Yet per Rev.16, the beast (king) and false prophet are shown doing miracles along with the dragon. That puts them all together as one person, because our Lord Jesus in His Olivet discourse (per the Greek) warned us about only one pseudo-Christ coming to work the "great signs and wonders" in Jerusalem. Same thing with Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and John in Revelation 13:11-14; they warned us about only one specific person coming to work the signs and wonders that will deceive. The early Church fathers interpreted the coming Antichrist that's to work the great signs and wonders being a certain individual too, so that isn't some strange new idea.

We have reached an end. If you cannot recognize that the antichirst is not the lamb with two horns then you need to learn grammar before you can argue cogently.

One verse destroys your concept:

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

2 people are cast into the lake of fire- not one who filled two roles!

nolidad · Mar 15, 2020

Davy said:
I don't care to get into historical arguments. We both know the Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby churches in 1830s Great Britain was the first era when a pre-trib secret rapture idea was taught to congregations; pre-trib scholars themselves have admitted as much. That excludes any monk or scholar coming up with the idea prior to that.

Other than the apostolic age and early 2nd century, I agree!!!

Davy said:
There's no such idea as tribulation saints written in God's Word. That is a dreamt up idea form the Pre-trib Rapture school in attempt support their false belief on a rapture of Christ's Church prior to the tribulation.

Then maybe you deny the trinity as well! After all there is no lace in the bible where that word appears!

Davy said:
I'm not knocking education, because I know my Lord Jesus calls some to that, but not all. Apostle Paul defined, as you well know, the various gifts by The Holy Spirit. He was an Apostle of our Lord Jesus. Sorry, but you are not, nor am I. Yet I find it amazing that you haven't yet discovered that the gathering events Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 are the very events of the gathering of the saints that our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse.

They are not and if one knew how to keep verses in context they wold not err so easily!

The olivet discourse gatherings happen on earth and stay on earth!

Thess. is Jesus gathering those IN CHRIST alone and snatching them up to heaven!

YOu ignore the fact that the church marries Jesus in heaven before He returns to earth. Little hard to have a marriage in heaven if the church is still on the earth .

YOU may have the last word, for this conversation has now trespassed onto fruitless ground!

Davy · Mar 16, 2020

nolidad said:
Wrong wrong wrong.

Nebuchadnezzar was not a kingdom nor the Medes and Pewrsians and Alexander! these were people!

The lamb with horns is a religious not a political or religious figure! Everything he does is religious in nature.

I have never heard of religious leaders to worship a kingdom.

The beast out of the sea is the antichrist! The culmination of the Daniel prophecies and the Olivet discourse. the lamb with horns is the false prophet. And at Jesus returns he throws people ( not a kngdom ) into the lake of fire. SDimple grammar alone rules out the beast being a kingdom!

You are confused.

Rev 11:7
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
KJV

That is about Satan himself. No flesh man ascends out of the bottomless pit, don't be silly!

The 'beast' idea in the Book of Daniel applies to both the idea of a king and a kingdom. Daniel 4 even reveals how old Neb himself was cast out in the wild to live like a wild beast, so how deceived does one have to be to miss that! Revelation 13:2 refers to the 1st beast (kingdom) from Daniel 7 for this reason. In Daniel 7 the 'beasts' are about kingdoms.

We have reached an end. If you cannot recognize that the antichirst is not the lamb with two horns then you need to learn grammar before you can argue cogently.

Sorry, I heed God's Word 'as written', not men's devices based on men's traditions. The idea of one appearing LIKE a lamb, is a direct pointer to Lord Jesus The Lamb slain. I don't have to rely on that symbol only though, because my Lord Jesus also warned me in Matthew 24:23-26 that a supernatural pseudo-Christ is coming to work "great signs and wonders" that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, would deceive even His very elect! And if I doubt that, I can also heed what Apostle Paul taught 2 Thess.2 about that same Antichrist coming to Jerusalem to exalt himself as God, and over all that is even called... God, or that is worshiped! And if I still... don't get it, I still have to heed Paul in 2 Cor.11 where he warned of the "another Jesus", relating that to how Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and his ministers and the ministers of righteousness!

Nah, it don't take an ANVIL to fall on me to understand those Scriptures, as written!

I just wish an anvil is all it will be to fall upon those who fall away to worship that coming Antichrist who will be Satan himself, right here on earth, in Jerusalem. It will be bad enough for deceived Jews in Jerusalem that will fall away to that, but at least they will have done it in ignorance. But for a believer on Christ Jesus, and with all the warnings our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us in His Holy Writ, there will be no excuse for those who fall to that pseudo-Christ which will be the "dragon" (Satan).

Davy · Mar 16, 2020

nolidad said:
Other than the apostolic age and early 2nd century, I agree!!!

If you place the pre-trib rapture doctrine being preached in ANY Christian church prior to the 1830's, then you have gone against the very pre-trib scholars you support.

Then maybe you deny the trinity as well! After all there is no lace in the bible where that word appears!

Then you bear false witness if you think I don't believe The Godhead is Three Persons. If your feelings are hurt because the Scriptures I showed you cut deep into the false pre-trib rapture theory, that isn't my fault. No need to make up and throw lies against me.

nolidad · Mar 16, 2020

Davy said:
You are confused.

Rev 11:7
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
KJV

That is about Satan himself. No flesh man ascends out of the bottomless pit, don't be silly!

The 'beast' idea in the Book of Daniel applies to both the idea of a king and a kingdom. Daniel 4 even reveals how old Neb himself was cast out in the wild to live like a wild beast, so how deceived does one have to be to miss that! Revelation 13:2 refers to the 1st beast (kingdom) from Daniel 7 for this reason. In Daniel 7 the 'beasts' are about kingdoms.

I am afraid it is you who are oconfused.
1. Satan is not in a pit right now but is the god of this world and still has access to heaven.
2. The Antichrist rises out of the gentile peoples (the sea) He is the culmination of the fourth beast in Daniels vision. He is the eleventh horn and eight head. He carries within him all the attributres of the prior kings of Daniels vision (Neb. Darious , Alexander, and whatever power uniquely of the ten kings)

The REv. 11 beast is a totally different beast.

We have the dragon who is in the heavens,
The antichirst who is the sea beast
The false prophet who is the lamb with two horns.
The beast who ascends out of the abyss!

Revelation 13:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

What this shows is the antichrist power to conquer.

The leopard was Alexander and speaks of the quickness of his conquests.
The mouth is Nebuchadnezzar
The feet as a bear- speaks of how powerfully the persians conquered. So the antichrist has the abilities of the other kings of Daniels vision.

Davy said:
Sorry, I heed God's Word 'as written', not men's devices based on men's traditions. The idea of one appearing LIKE a lamb, is a direct pointer to Lord Jesus The Lamb slain. I don't have to rely on that symbol only though, because my Lord Jesus also warned me in Matthew 24:23-26 that a supernatural pseudo-Christ is coming to work "great signs and wonders" that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, would deceive even His very elect! And if I doubt that, I can also heed what Apostle Paul taught 2 Thess.2 about that same Antichrist coming to Jerusalem to exalt himself as God, and over all that is even called... God, or that is worshiped! And if I still... don't get it, I still have to heed Paul in 2 Cor.11 where he warned of the "another Jesus", relating that to how Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, and his ministers and the ministers of righteousness!

And if you would only look at what he lamb with two horns does!

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

These are teh works of a true prophet like JOhn the Baptist! Poitning to the false messiah, telling all to worship and take his mark!

These are not the worls of a military and political tyrant, but a religious ruler!

nolidad · Mar 16, 2020

Davy said:
If you place the pre-trib rapture doctrine being preached in ANY Christian church prior to the 1830's, then you have gone against the very pre-trib scholars you support.

No but you are free to think that if you wish.

The first 2 centuries of the church, would have been considered pre-trib, though the term dispensational theology had not been coined yet (nor covenental or futurist or preterist)

Until Constantine and then Origen, Arius and Augustine, the thought of the "snatching away" was always considered imminent.

Davy said:
Then you bear false witness if you think I don't believe The Godhead is Three Persons. If your feelings are hurt because the Scriptures I showed you cut deep into the false pre-trib rapture theory, that isn't my fault. No need to make up and throw lies against me.

So the comparison went totally over your head then Trinity is a coined word to describe biblical truth just like dispensations is a coined word to describe bibliclal truth!

No you haven't hurt my feelings and no your knofe slashes haven't even grazed biblical truth.

nolidad · Mar 16, 2020

Davy said:
I just wish an anvil is all it will be to fall upon those who fall away to worship that coming Antichrist who will be Satan himself, right here on earth, in Jerusalem. It will be bad enough for deceived Jews in Jerusalem that will fall away to that, but at least they will have done it in ignorance. But for a believer on Christ Jesus, and with all the warnings our Lord Jesus and His Apostles gave us in His Holy Writ, there will be no excuse for those who fall to that pseudo-Christ which will be the "dragon" (Satan).

Well many Jews and many Gentiles will accept the Antichrist as Savior and Lord. Believers now will not be there when the mark is established. The latest the Church stays on earth is until the Antichrist starts signing that 7 year covenant with Israel that begins what is colloquially known as the Tribulation.

The bible gives the two purposes for the Tribulation and to make the church suffer si not it! That is shown in Thess.

And Satan will not be the antichrist.

For the dragon is in heaven when the sea beast (the antichrist) and the lanmb with horns (the false prophet) begin their reign after the Antichrist rises from the dead!

Once again the dragon gives his authority to the sea beast and the lamb beast works wonders and miracles only in the presence of the sea beat/antichrist! That is the Bible as written.

But as you have not responded, I will ask you directly.

Do you really think God throws a governemtnal system into the lake of fire with the false prophet?

As you call the lamb with two horns the antichrist, who is the false prophet???

Do you really believe a governmental system will be able to do miracles and lying signs because Satan gives his authority to a governmental system and no a person???

REmember this is the beat with 2 horns:

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Do you really believe the anitchirst can only do miracles in the sight of a governmental system?

Davy · Mar 17, 2020

nolidad said:
I am afraid it is you who are oconfused.

Not at all. I well understand the beast concept from the Book of Daniel, that it applies to both a beast kingdom AND a beast king...

Dan 4:24-25
24 This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the most High, which is come upon my lord the king:
25 That they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.
KJV

That literally happened to king Nebuchadnezzar. And there is a name for that disease of living in the wild thinking of oneself as a wild beast (see Lycanthropy Clinical lycanthropy - Wikipedia).

1. Satan is not in a pit right now but is the god of this world and still has access to heaven.

That's right. He is still roaming about like a lion.

2. The Antichrist rises out of the gentile peoples (the sea) He is the culmination of the fourth beast in Daniels vision. He is the eleventh horn and eight head. He carries within him all the attributres of the prior kings of Daniels vision (Neb. Darious , Alexander, and whatever power uniquely of the ten kings)

There you go with wrongly assigning that 1st beast of Rev.13:1 again. That 1st beast is the kingdom, not the king. The king does not have ten kings, seven mountains, nor ten crowns. The sea is linked with the waters of Revelation 17:15 which are the peoples, nations, multitudes, and tongues. That's about a one-world beast kingdom, the "one world government" system the globalists have been busy setting up that is almost complete today.

You'll never grasp who the Antichrist is until you get those two beasts right. In Rev.17 the subject changes quickly back and forth about the two beasts of Rev.13.

The REv. 11 beast is a totally different beast.

No it's not a different beast. It's this same one...

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
KJV

We have the dragon who is in the heavens,
The antichirst who is the sea beast
The false prophet who is the lamb with two horns.
The beast who ascends out of the abyss!

The dragon is just another title for Satan, and you well know that (Rev.12:9; 20:2).

That Antichrist is the 2nd beast, the "another beast" of Revelation 13:11 forward. The beast kingdom doesn't do the miracles, it's the beast king, the "another beast", that does the miracles, AS WRITTEN in Revelation 13:11-14.

You well know this because it is written. So why do you DENY THE WRITTEN SCRIPTURE?

Revelation 13:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

What this shows is the antichrist power to conquer.

The leopard was Alexander and speaks of the quickness of his conquests.
The mouth is Nebuchadnezzar
The feet as a bear- speaks of how powerfully the persians conquered. So the antichrist has the abilities of the other kings of Daniels vision.

Once again, those were symbols of the previous empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Macedonia. The REASON why our Lord showed those in Rev.13:2 was to POINT US BACK TO DANIEL 7. And in Dan.7 we are to pick up on the LAST beast kingdom shown there having TEN HORNS, just as this final beast kingdom of Rev.13:1 has TEN HORNS.

Thus the ten horns of the final beast kingdom is... the Message. And in Dan.7 we are shown it is that beast with ten horns that will be manifest when Christ comes to cast those thrones down! So the Message our Lord Jesus is giving is REVEALING the FINAL BEAST KINGDOM upon this earth, and that that is what the Revelation 13 Scripture is describing! Why?

Because it seals the fact that NO MAN can truthfully preach that the Rev.13 beast system and king are already past history. That then gives us the ability to watch at the end and prepare for our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming to end it.

And if you would only look at what he lamb with two horns does!

I have looked, but you're not looking (i.e., not heeding what all is written there).

The two horns LIKE a lamb idea is to show a mimic of Christ. One who speaks like a dragon IS the dragon, Satan himself. And we were shown it will be Satan himself back in the Rev.12 chapter...

Rev 12:15
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
KJV

Davy · Mar 17, 2020

nolidad said:
No but you are free to think that if you wish.

The first 2 centuries of the church, would have been considered pre-trib, though the term dispensational theology had not been coined yet (nor covenental or futurist or preterist)

Like I said, to say the pre-trib rapture doctrine was preached in ANY Christian church prior to the 1830's, is to go against what the pre-trib rapture school itself has taught about the history of that doctrine.

But have there been attempts by the pre-trib rapture doctrinists attempted to insert the doctrine into the writings of the early Church fathers? Yes, there's been attempts. But that's all they are. Even some of the early origins for just the 'idea' is Revisionist history.

AND I'M STILL WAITING FOR SCRIPTURE PROOF THAT THE DOCTRINE EXISTS IN GOD'S WORD.

Davy · Mar 17, 2020

nolidad said:
Believers now will not be there when the mark is established.

Still waiting for Scripture proof of that. I already gave proof to the opposite, per Christ's Olivet discourse in alignment with 1 Thess.4. Ain't nobody said nuttin' bout that!

nolidad · Mar 17, 2020

Davy said:
Still waiting for Scripture proof of that. I already gave proof to the opposite, per Christ's Olivet discourse in alignment with 1 Thess.4. Ain't nobody said nuttin' bout that!

Your proof is not proof. One is Jesus descending in the clouds to receive His church and the other is Jesus landing on planet earth with His church!

As far as the tribulation period (AKA the 70th week of Daniel) While there is no explicit verse that says the rapture will occur at such and such a time or before this or that, we can learn some important facts.

1. The tribulation is referred to often as the wrath of god. in 1 Thess. 5 it is clear we are not appointed to wrath. And what is the Tribulation?

Revelation 6:17 King James Version (KJV)
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

2. Who is the 70th week for?

Daniel 9:24 King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Jews, Jerusalem and for Israel to anoint Jesus as King!

Still waiting for you to show who the false prophet is and how God throws a governmental system into th elake of fire, when all greek translators gave him the personal pronoun!

Davy · Mar 18, 2020

nolidad said:
Your proof is not proof. One is Jesus descending in the clouds to receive His church and the other is Jesus landing on planet earth with His church!

Quit trying to change the subject.

Show me proof that the gathering of the saints Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, which I quoted, isn't what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the gathering of the Church. You'll dance around that Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-28 Scripture, but that's about all you'll do, just to try and save your wrong belief on a pre-trib rapture theory from men.

I'm not tied to any Church organizational system that makes me preach a false pre-trib rapture while dangling a pension over my head. What was it that Jesus said about not being able to serve two masters?

nolidad · Mar 18, 2020

Davy said:
Quit trying to change the subject.

Show me proof that the gathering of the saints Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, which I quoted, isn't what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the gathering of the Church. You'll dance around that Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-28 Scripture, but that's about all you'll do, just to try and save your wrong belief on a pre-trib rapture theory from men.

I'm not tied to any Church organizational system that makes me preach a false pre-trib rapture while dangling a pension over my head. What was it that Jesus said about not being able to serve two masters?

Well they simply aren't!

Elect does not always mean the church first off- context determines who is being referred to.

Matt. 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Verse 31 is a Hebrew Idiom simply meaning from around the globe.

Thess. we meet the Lord in the air!

Mt. 25:
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Kind of oxymoronic of Jesus if he had the dead in Christ rise and we left on the earth were snatched off the earth to re-separate us!

Also you completely overlooked the fact that teh church is in heaven before Jesus comes back!

REv. 19:
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

We are Jesus bride! Also still waiting for you to identify the false prophet and how God throws a governmental system in to th elake of fire!!!!!!

Davy · Mar 19, 2020

nolidad said:
Well they simply aren't!

Elect does not always mean the church first off- context determines who is being referred to.

Jesus was speaking to the 'foundation' of His Church upon the Mount of Olives, so don't be silly with ideas that He was speaking to someone else besides His Church. Boy, anything just to try and protect that old drunken pre-trib rapture doctrine, even creating the false idea that He speaking to unbelieving Jews. You should be well aware of who made that idea up just to support the pre-trib rapture idea.

Matt. 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Verse 31 is a Hebrew Idiom simply meaning from around the globe.

Not an idiom, but trying to say it is, is just another form of denial in order to support the false pre-trib beliefs on Matt.24. The Matt.24:31 verse is specifically about the gathering of the saints FROM Heaven, NOT from the earth, which is about Paul's 1 Thess.4 idea of Jesus bringing the asleep saints with Him when He descends to earth. The Mark 13:27 version is about the gathering of the saints from the earth, which is Paul's "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4.

Kind of oxymoronic of Jesus if he had the dead in Christ rise and we left on the earth were snatched off the earth to re-separate us!

Wow! By what you said there, you clearly reveal you don't really know what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4 about Christ's coming and gathering of His Church!

Paul taught that the dead rise first, and that we who are still alive shall not 'prevent' (precede in the Greek) those asleep saints. Paul said Jesus will bring those with Him when He comes. How could you not understand that?

1 Thess 4:14-16
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (Greek is 'precede') them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

Also you completely overlooked the fact that teh church is in heaven before Jesus comes back!

REv. 19:
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

We are Jesus bride! Also still waiting for you to identify the false prophet and how God throws a governmental system in to th elake of fire!!!!!!

And I already showed you how those Rev.19:1-9 verses are a future forward view for AFTER Christ has returned and destroyed the great harlot. The wedding and supper doesn't happen until AFTER Christ's return. So those verses are NOT about a pre-trib rapture.

You've already shown me enough by your Biblical ignorance that you are not who you say you are, and that you are only here to put on a sideshow in support of a doctrine of man you actually know very little about.

nolidad · Mar 19, 2020

Davy said:
Jesus was speaking to the 'foundation' of His Church upon the Mount of Olives, so don't be silly with ideas that He was speaking to someone else besides His Church. Boy, anything just to try and protect that old drunken pre-trib rapture doctrine, even creating the false idea that He speaking to unbelieving Jews. You should be well aware of who made that idea up just to support the pre-trib rapture idea.

Well to quote Peter:

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

YOu have rejected teh three questions the apostles asked and the three answers Jesus gsave.

Teh church has no sabbath, The church isn't concerned with the antiochrist in the temple.

But don't worry when the pre trib rapture comes, you are my brother and you shall be snatched up as well!

Well in Luke He is speaking to the church as well as Jews and in Matt. He is prophesying about th eJews who have been resotred to their land as prophesied and rebuilt the temple as prophesied and warned what to do.

They do flee to Petra and three days before Jesus comes back- they cry out "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" Just as Jesus prophesied!

Davy said:
Not an idiom, but trying to say it is, is just another form of denial in order to support the false pre-trib beliefs on Matt.24. The Matt.24:31 verse is specifically about the gathering of the saints FROM Heaven, NOT from the earth, which is about Paul's 1 Thess.4 idea of Jesus bringing the asleep saints with Him when He descends to earth. The Mark 13:27 version is about the gathering of the saints from the earth, which is Paul's "caught up" event of 1 Thess.4.

Go speak to a Hebrew speaking Rabbi and stop sounding so ignorant.

AndThessalonians is not about gathering saints from heaven. If you understood basic language you would see that!

Jesus descends to the clouds,
The deaad bodies are called from the grave.
The saints alive and remain (where-the earth)
Are caught up! not around or horizontally!

Davy said:
Show me proof that the gathering of the saints Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, which I quoted, isn't what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the gathering of the Church. You'll dance around that Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-28 Scripture, but that's about all you'll do, just to try and save your wrong belief on a pre-trib rapture theory from men.

No one can prove a negative! And no it is not to save a pre trib rapture fact, but it is rightly dividng the word of truth on end times events.

Davy · Mar 21, 2020

nolidad said:
Well to quote Peter:

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

YOu have rejected teh three questions the apostles asked and the three answers Jesus gsave.

I haven't rejected a darn... thing my Lord Jesus gave us in His Word, nor by His Apostles. What you are doing is bearing false witness, acting like a little child just because you can't find evidence for the pre-trib rapture in God's Word, and I have exposed your attempts!

Teh church has no sabbath, The church isn't concerned with the antiochrist in the temple.

So says the pre-trib rapture doctors who brainwash their deceived believers. My Lord Jesus warned us about the coming Antichrist in Jerusalem in the temple (Matt.24), so did Apostle Paul specifically in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and John gave a parallel to it in Rev.13 about the "another beast". Because you preach against that, I'm not convinced you are who you say you are.

But don't worry when the pre trib rapture comes, you are my brother and you shall be snatched up as well!

I don't worry, even while knowing the Church isn't going anywhere before nor during the tribulation. I'm prepared to make a stand in the evil day with the whole armour of God on, like Apostle Paul said those in Christ are to do (Eph.6).

Well in Luke He is speaking to the church as well as Jews and in Matt. He is prophesying about th eJews who have been resotred to their land as prophesied and rebuilt the temple as prophesied and warned what to do.

They do flee to Petra and three days before Jesus comes back- they cry out "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord" Just as Jesus prophesied!

Jesus was speaking to all His Church in His Olivet discourse, giving the signs of the end we are to be watching leading up to His return. That was... the main subject they asked Him about at the start of that, what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the world. At the end of the Mark 13 example, He said for ALL, to 'watch'.

Go speak to a Hebrew speaking Rabbi and stop sounding so ignorant.

I don't need a rabbi, I don't follow Judaism, which still rejects Christ Jesus. There is NO New Testament requirement for a Christian to heed a Jewish rabbi. Your idea is irrelevant to explaining the gathering of the saints events Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. You cannot handle that it is the same events that Paul gave in 1 Thess.4.

AndThessalonians is not about gathering saints from heaven. If you understood basic language you would see that!

Jesus descends to the clouds,
The deaad bodies are called from the grave.
The saints alive and remain (where-the earth)
Are caught up! not around or horizontally!

You show your Biblical ignorance.

1 Thess 4:14-15
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent (precede in the Greek) them which are asleep.
KJV

The asleep saints rise first, to where??? Well, where does Jesus bring those asleep saints with Him from when He descends to earth? From Heaven. And that is exactly the event of Matthew 24:29, the saints are gathered from one end of heaven to the other. In the Mark 13:27 version, it's about the saints being gathered from the earth. So easy a child can understand it.

No one can prove a negative! And no it is not to save a pre trib rapture fact, but it is rightly dividng the word of truth on end times events.

You can't prove it's NOT about the same events Paul gave in 1 Thess.4. You tried, but you only made yourself look foolish. ANY idea in the New Testament speaking about the gathering by Christ of His saints is about the day of His 2nd coming to do just that! We don't need no rabbi either to tell us different!

Douggg · Mar 21, 2020

Overuse of exclamation marks is never a good idea.

nolidad · Mar 21, 2020

Davy said:
I haven't rejected a darn... thing my Lord Jesus gave us in His Word, nor by His Apostles. What you are doing is bearing false witness, acting like a little child just because you can't find evidence for the pre-trib rapture in God's Word, and I have exposed your attempts!

And yet I am not the one ranting and accusing me of being drunk and actin like a little child!

Davy said:
So says the pre-trib rapture doctors who brainwash their deceived believers. My Lord Jesus warned us about the coming Antichrist in Jerusalem in the temple (Matt.24), so did Apostle Paul specifically in 2 Thessalonians 2:4, and John gave a parallel to it in Rev.13 about the "another beast". Because you preach against that, I'm not convinced you are who you say you are.

And yet when I asked you , you refuse to tell me how and why God throws a govenmental system into the lake of fire and who the false prophet is based on SCripture. That is what happens when you allegorize scriptures.

Davy said:
I don't worry, even while knowing the Church isn't going anywhere before nor during the tribulation. I'm prepared to make a stand in the evil day with the whole armour of God on, like Apostle Paul said those in Christ are to do (Eph.6).

If you bothered to learn what Paul actually said, you would realize that every day we live is the evil day. Eph. 6:14 is in the imperative which means to NOW stand! The tribulation is the wrath of God and the church of God (the body of Christ) is not destined for that wrath!

Davy said:
I don't need a rabbi, I don't follow Judaism, which still rejects Christ Jesus. There is NO New Testament requirement for a Christian to heed a Jewish rabbi. Your idea is irrelevant to explaining the gathering of the saints events Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. You cannot handle that it is the same events that Paul gave in 1 Thess.4.

Then remain ignorant of how the Jewish portions of SCripture were written in the days of Jesus and how they used language. Ignorance is not bliss you know!

Davy said:
Quit trying to change the subject.

Show me proof that the gathering of the saints Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, which I quoted, isn't what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the gathering of the Church. You'll dance around that Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-28 Scripture, but that's about all you'll do, just to try and save your wrong belief on a pre-trib rapture theory from men.

I'm not tied to any Church organizational system that makes me preach a false pre-trib rapture while dangling a pension over my head. What was it that Jesus said about not being able to serve two masters?

Nor do I receive a pension from any church organization!

So you are not part of a dispensational church which means you are part of an allegirical hereneutic church! AKA those who privately interpret the Word!

I cannot prove a negative! What you need to do is show how Matt and Thess are the same event when the language clearly shows one is a gathering on the earth (Matt.) and the other is a gathering in the clouds.

YOu confuse the two because they both use clouds. YOu reject what this means to the writer and insert your own opinion: 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Let us look at Matt. 24 and add you r opinion:

Matt. 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Accorrdin to your hereneutic of this, Jesus appears to all the tribes of the earth (Rev. 1:77 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. ) .

So according to you, Jesus raptures the church once the world sees Him arriving, and then two or so minutes later- He lands on earth!

Problem. The church is shown in heaven BEFORE Jesus returns wedding Jesus and already recieved her rewards! YOu have some jumbled definition that says this is after and later on is before when there is nothing in Scripture or language to support that! That is just bad studying!

Why should the church accept your allegorical opinion of this stuff over the dozens of others allegorical opinions???

Davy · Mar 21, 2020

nolidad said:
And yet I am not the one ranting and accusing me of being drunk and actin like a little child!

If it walks and talks like a duck, it is a duck. I call it as it is.

And yet when I asked you , you refuse to tell me how and why God throws a govenmental system into the lake of fire and who the false prophet is based on SCripture. That is what happens when you allegorize scriptures.

Asked me WHAT?? all you've done is go on a rant, not providing Biblical proof of your position, and continually acting making childish rants, "well you didn't answer my question"! I did, you can't handle it. So grow up!

nolidad · Mar 22, 2020

Davy said:
If it walks and talks like a duck, it is a duck. I call it as it is.

Yes you have shown you love your opinions over all else.

Davy said:
Asked me WHAT?? all you've done is go on a rant, not providing Biblical proof of your position, and continually acting making childish rants, "well you didn't answer my question"! I did, you can't handle it. So grow up!

Well you are so inflamed with you ranger you do not even realize that I have asked you 6 times why you think that God throws a governmental system into the lake of fire and has it there for a thousand years prior to the great white throne judgment!

Once again your version of the rapture when Jesus returns, has HIm in the atmosphere,where all the world sees Him and mourns, then while He is inthe clouds (4 to 25,000 feet above the earth) He sends His angels to "rapture" the church, and then in that short time span, He gathers all teh dead in Christ first, and then we which are alive and remain get snatched up as well and then we all come down to earth!

Then you have while Jesus is on earth, the church is now in heaven after we landed on earth (cuz Jesus does land on earth), we get whisked up to heaven to marry Jesus who is busy on earth ruling! HOw does that work actually?

Also when does the church go through the Bema Judgment and our works are tried and we get rewarded?

If you think I am angry- it is you who are bearing false witness not I! I tend to write and speak very bluntly! If you saw me when I was writing this, you would know I have not a cross bone in my body answering you. I am very very blunt however. adn I take it you are fairly young and are not used to having someone be blunt and direct!

The seven kings of Revelation 17:10

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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