The fatal flaw of Universalism

Der Alte · Mar 20, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
From the notes you quoted, I see:
"...speaks rather strongly in favor of..."
"...acknowledges the possibility..."
"...could be either..."
"...prefers the former..."
"...in my opinion..."
"...it is unclear..."
I know you love scholarship, but it seems to me that the scholars have build for themselves an alternate reality full of the hedged, full-of-possibility-but-short-of certainty language I hear on the "Ancient Aliens" television show. I have learned to step elsewhere, for both scholarship and ancient aliens.
Regarding versions, do the orthodox religious groups not do the same, choose a version which supports orthodoxy? Of course they do.

That is only one example most of them are more certain. You keep accusing me of "loving scholarship." I have the same respect for Bible scholarship as medical, legal etc scholarship.
What I have zero respect for is every anonymous person online, who doesn't know what a hithpael or an aorist is, who claims he/she alone has the whole truth and everybody else is wrong.

FineLinen · Mar 20, 2020

“Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will…”

Chance = sunkuria =

A meeting together by a coincidence of [HIS] circumstances.

A concurrence of events rather than chance!

The radical all of "the flaws" continues

Saint Steven · Mar 20, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
I have learned to step elsewhere...

Like walking in the barnyard... better watch your step. - lol

Lazarus Short · Mar 20, 2020

Der Alter said:
What I have zero respect for is every anonymous person online, who doesn't know what a hithpael or an aorist is, who claims he/she alone has the whole truth and everybody else is wrong.

In case that is a veiled insult directed Lazward, I will repeat what I have said on CF more than once:

The deep things of God are like a vast ocean into which none of us has done more than dip his/her toes...

"Whole truth"? Don't look at me. Look up.

Saint Steven · Mar 20, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
In case that is a veiled insult directed Lazward, I will repeat what I have said on CF more than once:

The deep things of God are like a vast ocean into which none of us has done more than dip his/her toes...

"Whole truth"? Don't look at me. Look up.

Right.
As if knowing what a hithpael, or an aorist is has ANYTHING to do with knowing the truth.

Mark 10:14
When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Acts 4:13
When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

FineLinen · Mar 21, 2020

Lazarus Short said:
In case that is a veiled insult directed Lazward, I will repeat what I have said on CF more than once:

The deep things of God are like a vast ocean into which none of us has done more than dip his/her toes...

"Whole truth"? Don't look at me. Look up.

Dear Laz: That my friend is a glorious quote & a wonderful way to begin the day.

"Imagine that you go to the ocean, take off your shoes and socks, and wade in ankle-deep. It’s true that you are in only ankle-deep, but it’s also true that you are in the ocean. If you bend down, touch your fingertips to the water, then touch them to your tongue, you taste salt. You feel the wind in your face. You look out at the horizon where the waterline meets the sky. You look down the shoreline. You feel the water about your ankles and, yes, you are in the ocean. In order to get in deeper, you simply need to move forward and it will get plenty deep soon enough. Awakening the spiritual path is like this. We have but to remain humbly open to the first stirrings of our journey into God, and our journey, will, in God’s good time, get plenty deep, soon enough.” -Rich Lewis-

ilovejcsog · Mar 21, 2020

March 21, 2020
Will There Be Eternal Punishment?

Revelation 20:11-15

Many people don’t like the idea of eternal punishment for the ungodly. Some people think God shouldn’t have created the world at all if He knew we were going to sin. But can you imagine never having been born? Others think that the heavenly Father shouldn’t have created man with the ability to sin and to do evil. But would you want to be a robot with no choices and no free will?

Our Father decided upon a different alternative: He created human beings with a free will. In this way, man can receive love from the Creator and choose to glorify Him in return. God gave us the right to decide between love or hate, obedience or disobedience. He understood that choice meant people would sometimes suffer, but that they would have the potential to grow in character. Then God can shape us as we grow in love and submit to Him—and in the process, we will be conformed to His likeness.

God knew free will was the best option for His created beings. What will you do with yours? I pray that you’ll understand the sacrifice Jesus made for you on the cross and choose to receive His love today.
Dr. Charles Stanley

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2020

Sin is the fertilizer that made grace grow. Sin and punishment not being the goal or end, but rather grace and forgiveness.

Like the natural order of things. A tree grows and produces a leaf. When mature, the leaf dies and falls to the ground. Dead leaves are the mulch from which fresh new life springs. Therefore, death produces life. This is the divine order of things.

Can there ever be great victory without a great struggle? And the worse the foe, the more glorious the celebration. And doesn't God himself love an amazing story? Why would his divine plan end in defeat?

Romans 5:20-21
The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2020

As a boy, I remember my surprise to find top soil in the rain gutters on our roof. And in cleaning out the gutters even more surprised to find earth worms in that soil. I wondered at how this could be so.

Later in life I reasoned that the top soil was the product of decaying leaves. I'm still not sure how the worms got there. It seems that they appear spontaneously in the presence of top soil. - lol

FineLinen · Mar 21, 2020

ilovejcsog said:
March 21, 2020
Will There Be Eternal Punishment?

Revelation 20:11-15

Many people don’t like the idea of eternal punishment for the ungodly. Some people think God shouldn’t have created the world at all if He knew we were going to sin. But can you imagine never having been born? Others think that the heavenly Father shouldn’t have created man with the ability to sin and to do evil. But would you want to be a robot with no choices and no free will?

Our Father decided upon a different alternative: He created human beings with a free will. In this way, man can receive love from the Creator and choose to glorify Him in return. God gave us the right to decide between love or hate, obedience or disobedience. He understood that choice meant people would sometimes suffer, but that they would have the potential to grow in character. Then God can shape us as we grow in love and submit to Him—and in the process, we will be conformed to His likeness.

God knew free will was the best option for His created beings. What will you do with yours? I pray that you’ll understand the sacrifice Jesus made for you on the cross and choose to receive His love today.
Dr. Charles Stanley

Dear Rox: That is a ghastly mess!

There is exactly one intention of our Heavenly Father, known intimately as dearest Daddy (Abba), to bring every last one of us into at-one-ment with Himself. That Father of ours, corrects to one end & one end only, change & transformation, NOT endless torment!

Every little will in at-one-ment with the Will of all wills.

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear Rox: That is a ghastly mess!

There is exactly one intention of our Heavenly Father, known intimately as dearest Daddy (Abba), to bring every last one of us into at-one-ment with Himself. That Father of ours, corrects to one end & one end only, change & transformation, NOT endless torment!

Every little will in at-one-ment with the Will of all wills.

Amen to that.

Ephesians 1:7-10
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

FineLinen · Mar 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Amen to that.

Ephesians 1:7-10
In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

Hi there Saint: This happens to be one of my favorite utterances in Scripture. In speaks clearly of our Abba & His purpose of total immersion into Him.

I am sure you see the focus in this one wonderful passage. It is not us, it is Him!

“Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will…”

Chance = sunkuria =

A meeting together by a coincidence of [HIS] circumstances.

A concurrence of events rather than chance.

There is zero chance involved.

Charlie24 · Mar 21, 2020

FineLinen said:
Hi there Saint: This happens to be one of my favorite utterances in Scripture. In speaks clearly of our Abba & His purpose of total immersion into Him.

I am sure you see the focus in this one wonderful passage. It is not us, it is Him!

“Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will…”

Chance = sunkuria =

A meeting together by a coincidence of [HIS] circumstances.

A concurrence of events rather than chance.

There is zero chance involved.

These are my favorite verses from Eph. that I like to show the Calvinists.

The Godhead planned from the beginning to create man, he would fall, and The Son would redeem man. This is "His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself."

"He has made known unto us the mystery of His will." This is not a secret.

"Predestined according to the purpose of Him," are those who God knew would be saved and they were predestined to the plan.

It is not the individual being chosen by God, whether he would be saved or not.

Do you notice also "gather together in one all things in Christ," these are the ones who are in Christ, not meaning all will be in Christ.

Saint Steven · Mar 21, 2020

Charlie24 said:
These are my favorite verses from Eph. that I like to show the Calvinists.

The Godhead planned from the beginning to create man, he would fall, and The Son would redeem man. This is "His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself."

"He has made known unto us the mystery of His will." This is not a secret.

"Predestined according to the purpose of Him," are those who God knew would be saved and they were predestined to the plan.

It is not the individual being chosen by God, whether he would be saved or not.

Do you notice also "gather together in one all things in Christ," these are the ones who are in Christ, not meaning all will be in Christ.

I almost clicked the AGREE rating due to the top half of your post.
But the end of your post prevented my agreement, and even contradicted your own statement about God's plan for humankind.

First you write: "The Godhead planned from the beginning to create man, he would fall, and The Son would redeem man."
Then at the bottom of your post you contradict it by writing: "Do you notice also "gather together in one all things in Christ," these are the ones who are in Christ, not meaning all will be in Christ."

How will you reconcile the contradiction? Choose one of two options:
1) End the first statement with, "... The Son would redeem some men."
Or...
2) In the second statement, let "all things" truly be ALL THINGS.

Charlie24 · Mar 21, 2020

Saint Steven said:
I almost clicked the AGREE rating due to the top half of your post.
But the end of your post prevented my agreement, and even contradicted your own statement about God's plan for humankind.

First you write: "The Godhead planned from the beginning to create man, he would fall, and The Son would redeem man."
Then at the bottom of your post you contradict it by writing: "Do you notice also "gather together in one all things in Christ," these are the ones who are in Christ, not meaning all will be in Christ."

How will you reconcile the contradiction? Choose one of two options:
1) End the first statement with, "... The Son would redeem some men."
Or...
2) In the second statement, let "all things" truly be ALL THINGS.

It's not a contradiction, unless you falsely believe that those in Christ will be everyone.

Shrewd Manager · Mar 21, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Do you notice also "gather together in one all things in Christ," these are the ones who are in Christ, not meaning all will be in Christ.

Nice spindoctoring there Charlie. Which translation are you relying on?
Ephesians 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

Looks to me it's about everything brought into submission to Christ, consistent with 1 Cor 15:28 and many other scriptures.

Charlie24 · Mar 21, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Nice spindoctoring there Charlie. Which translation are you relying on?
Ephesians 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to bring all things in heaven and on earth together in Christ.

Looks to me it's about everything brought into submission to Christ, consistent with 1 Cor 15:28 and many other scriptures.

Nope! It's His plan from the beginning that's brought into fullness.

Shrewd Manager · Mar 21, 2020

Charlie24 said:
Nope! It's His plan from the beginning that's brought into fullness.

Which Bible translation Charlie? His Omega Plan is Salvation in Christ. Through Christ all things were made. At the end God proclaims Behold I am making everything new. Idk how much more absolute He can be in relation to the outcome.

Charlie24 · Mar 21, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Which Bible translation Charlie? His Omega Plan is Salvation in Christ. Through Christ all things were made. At the end God proclaims Behold I am making everything new. Idk how much more absolute He can be in relation to the outcome.

That's the unbiblical UR heresy, that has more holes in it than a slab of Swiss cheese.

Shrewd Manager · Mar 21, 2020

Charlie24 said:
That's the unbiblical UR heresy, that has more holes in it than a slab of Swiss cheese.

But you're all for the type of Swiss Cheese that promotes limited atonement? Thought you rejected Calvinism Charlie?

The fatal flaw of Universalism

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Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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