Is the Rapture biblical?

iamlamad said:

Does anyone REQUIRE a scripture (except maybe you) that states "judgment days?" Is not two scriptures shown clearly to be separated by time and each speaking of a resurrection enough?

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You have avoided multiple questions. I'm going to start repeating them:

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?

What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?

sovereigngrace said:

Jesus gathers all His elect together at His one and only coming and our gathering together unto Him. Contrary to what you impute into 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Please notice the highlighted blue that you have ducked around throughout this thread.

Let us look 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: ...

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

2 Thessalonians 1:7-12, 2:1-4 shows that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs at “the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” It states: ...

The day of the Lord is near, it is approaching, it is at hand.

Once again “the coming of our Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same concluding day of time. Paul is encouraging the Church here to remain strong and steadfast as they await the coming of the day of the Lord. This day, that comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night, will catch the wicked unprepared. He tells the Thessalonians not to be “soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us.” This would suggest that there would be times of trial and tribulation to endure before this great climactic event. What is more, it is an approaching event that the Church was to prepare for, because: “the day of the Lord is at hand (or enistemi meaning impending).”

We should carefully note that this is the time when the Church is gathered unto the Lord. The coming (parousia) of the Lord witnesses the gathering of the saints – dead and alive. The dead in Christ are resurrected; the alive in Christ are caught up. The phrase “gathering together” is taken from the Greek word episunagoge proving that the Church isn't raptured until the one final coming of Christ at the day of the Lord.

This is sudden, climactic and totally destructive. It sees God rescuing His elect and destroying the wicked.

Matthew 24:29-31 refers to this same trumpet. It is a parallel text. Jesus says of His Coming, ...

This is referring to the exact same event as is described in 1 Thessalonians 4. It is the Coming of the Lord that is signalled by the sound of the last trump and the uniting of the elect both on earth and in heaven. Christ tells us that the angels “shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” This agrees with Paul’s assertion in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Christ will come with and for His saints at His Coming. Those saints that the angels gather in heaven are the "dead in Christ," those that are gathered from the four winds of the earth are 'the live in Christ'. This is describing the same event. Moreover, this passage locates the catching away at the end of the tribulation, not seven years before it. There is no 7-year tribulation period mentioned in Matthew 24:29-30, or anywhere else for that matter.

Jesus repeats that truth in the parallel passage in Mark 13:24-27, 31-32:...

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 and this correlate and negate the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does He gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus comes “with” and “for” His saints. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

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them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. Jesus brings the spirits of the dead in Christ with Him so they can join again with their new resurrection bodies. This of course happens pretrib, just before wrath and cannot possibly be used as an argument for posttrib.

the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: No one should argue about this verse for it is very clear: the dead are resurrected first, flying up out of their grave into the air, then those alive are caught up to meet the first group in the air, and TOGETHER (the gathering) they fly up to meet Jesus in the cloud. Again, this verse along cannot possibly be used by either pretrib or posttrib for it gives no timing information.

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints)
Yet, this is EXACTLY what it says! He is in heaven with the spirits of the dead in Christ, who, by the way, want their bodies back. He brings them with Him (in spirit form) so that they can reunite with their bodies. Then those that are alive join with Him in the clouds. He has then effectively came FOR His (resurrection) saints. His goal is to take them to a place of safety away from His wrath on earth. Did you never read?

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Jesus is coming to punish those on earth. Will He punish the righteous with the wicked? No! He will take us to the homes He has prepared for us, to wait out his punishment.

Question: When God turns the seas into blood: how do the saints left behind get anything different than the sinner? They don't.

When God turns all fresh water into blood, how do the saints left behind get anything different than the sinner? They won't.

When God turns out the lights and leaves total darkness, will the saints left behind magically be able to see? NO.

When God turns up the heat and scorches men with heat; will the saints left behind magically be exempt? NO!

These are reasons God is not setting any appointments for us with His wrath. He is going to take us OUT.

this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. This is a simply misunderstanding. He is coming for resurrection saints. But in the process of coming for them, He must bring the spirits of those who have passed.

He does not come WITH His resurrection saints until 7 years later as shown in Rev, 19.

The day of the Lord is near, it is approaching, it is at hand. In 2 Thes. 2, they were upset because they thought they were IN the DAy of the Lord. That is WHY they were upset: Paul and taught them that the rapture would come before the Day of the Lord, and they had heard (mistakenly) that they were IN the Day; that it had already started.

Stop and think for a moment: Paul had taught them in His first letter that the rapture would come first, then the Day of the Lord. If they thought the day was soon to begin, no reason at all to be upset: the rapture could come tomorrow! They would be excited, not upset!

Paul could have told them "no, it is not time yet for the rapture," or something like that. Instead, Paul taught them how they or anyone else could know FOR SURE how to tell that the Day has started and they are in it: if they see the man of sin revealed, they can KNOW the day has started (previously) and they are in it. Therefore, 2 Thes. 2 is an argument for pretrib, not posttrib. The gathering and departure (apostasia) must come FIRST before the man of sin can be revealed. In other words, no member of the church will ever see the man of sin UNLESS they are in sin at the time of the rapture.

Once again “the coming of our Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same concluding day of time. I will not disagree here. The only stipulation is that the rapture comes first: HE COMES, then we are caught up, then THE DAY has started. Only according to Revelation, this comes before the Trib or before the 70th week. The thing is, this coming cannot possibly be His coming as shown in Rev. 19.

This would suggest that there would be times of trial and tribulation to endure before this great climactic event.
No, it is plain they were upset because Paul had taught them the rapture comes before the Day, and then someone told them they were already IN the day. They thought Paul was wrong, or they had missed the rapture.

The phrase “gathering together” is taken from the Greek word episunagoge proving that the Church isn't raptured until the one final coming of Christ at the day of the Lord. This is MYTH. This phrase comes because the dead in Christ fly up into the air first, then a moment later those alive and in Christ fly up into the air, and TOGETHER they go up to meet Jesus. So after both groups are in the air (around the planet) they will gather together to up to where Jesus will be. Who knows WHERE He will be? In the air above Jerusalem? In teh air above New York? Who knows? John does not tell us. Since the world is round, the saints will gather together to where Jesus is in the clouds.

Matthew 24:29-31 refers to this same trumpet. It is a parallel text. This is just more MYTH. One comes before the trib, one comes after the trib. In one His coming is only to the air, while in the other He comes to Armageddon. In one He is hidden, in the other every eye sees Him. Trying to force two comings into one just leads to nonsense.

The "last trump" is the final trump of the church age. It will probably be the long last trump at the feast of trumpets.

The trumpet after the trib will signal the angels to gather together all the descendants of Jacob, from heaven and from earth. Those in heaven will be the 144,000 raptured earlier in the week, plus the Old Testament saints that rose just before the marriage and supper in heaven. Those from earth will be the scattered elect that have survived the trib. Note to readers: these are NOT the same trumpet.

To assume that the gathering of the elect is Paul's rapture is an error. They are not and cannot be the same. In the rapture, the gathering happens ON EARTH, as both the dead and those alive are up in the air around the world. The rapture will not gather from heaven.

Paul assures us that his rapture is a moment before the Day of the Lord (wrath). In Revelation that is easy to pinpoint as happening before the Trib.

This agrees with Paul’s assertion in 1 Thessalonians 4 that Christ will come with and for His saints at His Coming. Those saints that the angels gather in heaven are the "dead in Christ," those that are gathered from the four winds of the earth are 'the live in Christ'.
This shows a lack of understanding of this scripture. The "gathering" at the rapture is AFTER both the dead and the living are up into the air. THEN they are gathering to Christ in the air. Trying to force the events of TWO COMINGS into one causes this kind of confusion. Trying to make a gathering from heaven into the rapture just won't work. It is a DIFFERENT gathering of DIFFERENT people at a DIFFERENT time.

Moreover, this passage locates the catching away at the end of the tribulation, not seven years before it.
No, it shows us a DIFFERENT gathering at the end of the tribulation, of a different group of people.

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “Coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation.
This is confusion caused by trying to force different events at different comings into one coming and one event. It does not work. For the rapture, the church is snatched up! Harpodzo.
to seize, carry off by force
to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly
to snatch out or away

For the gathering in Matthew 24 it is episynagō
to gather together besides, to bring together to others already assembled
to gather together against
to gather together in one place

It is clear that the gathering (seizing for one's self eagerly) at the pretrib rapture, gathering on earth, is a different gathering that Matthew 24 tells us that comes 7 years later.

iamlamad said:

One coming will be before the future 70th week. His 3rd coming will be AFTER the week.

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Do you have one clear Scripture that teaches this?

sovereigngrace said:

You have avoided multiple questions. I'm going to start repeating them:

What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?

What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?

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Revelation 20 is very clear that there are two resurrections, the first called "the first resurrection." the second, if titled at all, is called "the second death" resurrection. You can find both of these in Rev. 20.

Again I ask, if there are two separate verses showing a resurrection, separate from each other by time, do we NEED one verse showing two? The answer is NO!

Two judgment days? Sorry, there is ONE final judgment day after the 1000 years.
At this judgment, the saints are exempt. No appointment and no show. It tells us where these people come from: heaven is not listed. However, there is a judgment seat of Christ where only the born again will be.

There is not scripture that has judgment days (plural). However, there are separate scriptures that show us the judgment seat of Christ and another that shows us the final judgment.

Question: do you move the 6th seal (and events) to the time of Rev 19?

sovereigngrace said:

Do you have one clear Scripture that teaches this?

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Do we NEED one clear scripture? We form doctrine from all scriptures. It is impossible (no matter how hard posttribbers try) to force all the events of two comings into one. This causes more problems than just leaving them as two separate comings as shown in scripture.

sovereigngrace said:

This is coded language for: Pretrib has not one single proof-text in the whole of Scripture. They have nothing that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a 3rd coming of Christ. It does not exist in the sacred text. You just cherry pick detail from various unrelated passages in Scripture, dump them all into a pot, and stir them together, and lo and behold what is produced is Pretrib.

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There is also proof (shown by the multitude of posttribber posts) that there is not one single proof text anywhere that proves beyond any doubt that the rapture is posttrib.

Indeed, assuming the rapture is posttrib brings up many problems with other scriptures. Case in point: posttribbers cannot get to the marriage and supper which will be in heaven before Christ descends (comes). Posttribbers cannot find and sheep for the sheep and goat judgment. Posttribbers cannot find saints left in natural bodies to replenish the earth.

The closest the bible gets to one event immediately following another is the Olivet discourse and the book of Revelation. Neither one is a complete list of all events. However, other scriptures do show one event followed by another. In 1 Thes. 4 & 5,. the rapture is followed by the Day of the Lord. NO TIME between. In Revelation the church seen in heaven is followed by the 70th week.

Look, of there were clear verses, the forums would not have thousands of posts filled with disagreements. The truth is, there ARE NO clear verses showing everything in need order, one event followed by another. We have to take ALL end times scriptures to form doctrine. The sad thing is, some people read Matthew 24 and form an end time doctrine from that ONE PASSAGE! No wonder there is so much disagreement!

Probably the clearest place to see the timing of the rapture is where John saw the raptured church in heaven, between the 6th and 7th seal, then the 70th week following.

Sorry, but you have it backwards: it is postrib that dumps various scriptures into a pot and pulls them out to attempt to prove what is not truth.

sovereigngrace said:

Give me one clear Scripture that teaches that?

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Why are you always looking for one clear scripture? If there was one clear scripture, we would all agree on these things. We must form doctrine from what God gave us. Have you noticed yet that John saw the great crowd too large to number (the raptured church) in chapter 7, between the 6th and 7th seal, proving they are before the 70th week or trib?

sovereigngrace said:

The only problems in all of these texts are for your doctrine.

Where is a future millennium mentioned in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46? Nowhere! You force a seven-year tribulation, a third coming, and a future millennium into passage after passage, and text after text, that knows nothing of these Pretrib inventions. This passage actually refutes Pretrib and Premil. Your teachers have taught you wrong!

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No I don't! I take ALL the end times scripture and form my end time theory from all scripture. The truth is, all these scriptures together prove a coming FOR the saints, the 7 year trib, His coming WITH His saints for Armageddon, the resurrection of the Old Testament saints, the 1000 year reign, and then the white throne judgment. This really is what the verse prove; yet men seem always to disagree.

sovereigngrace said:

This all happens at the one-and-only coming of Christ. Where is your so-called 7-years trib? Nowhere! Where are your survivors? Nowhere! Where is your so-called 3rd coming Nowhere!

You have evidence here of a general judgment that occurs when Jesus comes! You can fight with Scripture all you want, but it does not change that absolute fact!

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You CANNOT force many events into one second of time! Does TIME of TIMING ever enter into your thinking?

sovereigngrace said:

Scripture strongly forbids the theory. No one escapes the sudden destruction according to Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. This fits with numerous other Scripture that shows that wicked are destroyed by His fiery presence.

• How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
• How many wicked survived in Sodom?

After all, this is the actual subject that Christ is speaking of.

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the second coming. He deliberates and graphically connected the happenings of both these former days of judgment to the day of His return. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then describes a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the second coming. Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious Second Coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.

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No one escapes the sudden destruction The truth is, these two words together, "sudden destruction" does not give any information on how many died. Someone would have to ad lib that, for it is not in those two words. Now, if we take "“destroyed them all.”, that is something different: it DOES tell us how many died. Can't you see the difference?

As much as you may long for your theory to be right, it is impossible. Jesus is not going to be fighting at the battle of Armageddon and at the very same moment in time be setting on His throne judging the sheep and goats. There is TIME between these two events. This time makes your theory simply impossible: there will be no goats, for you have killed them all before the time of the judgment.

As for Noah and Lot, the main thought Jesus was bringing is the suddenness of their destruction: in both examples, they were living their life to the fullest, thinking this day would be just like yesterday, but suddenly their destruction came.

iamlamad said:

them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. Jesus brings the spirits of the dead in Christ with Him so they can join again with their new resurrection bodies. This overcourse happens pretrib, just before wrath and cannot possibly be used as an argument for posttrib.

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Hello! Exactly! He is coming "with" and "for" His saints. This is the opposite of the Pretrib theory that teaches He is only coming "for" His Church. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 reinforces the climactic Posttrib position.

No one should argue about this verse for it is very clear: the dead are resurrected first, flying up out of their grave into the air, then those alive are caught up to meet the first group in the air, and TOGETHER (the gathering) they fly up to meet Jesus in the cloud. Again, this verse along cannot possibly be used by either pretrib or posttrib for it gives no timing information.

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This confirms everything happens at the one climactic event. Following this, Paul makes no mention of a tribulation period, survivors or a 3rd coming. You force that into the text.

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints)Yet, this is EXACTLY what it says! He is in heaven with the spirits of the dead in Christ, who, by the way, want their bodies back. He brings them with Him (in spirit form) so that they can reunite with their bodies. Then those that are alive join with Him in the clouds. He has then effectively came FOR His (resurrection) saints. His goal is to take them to a place of safety away from His wrath on earth. Did you never read?

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Where does Paul say He takes them to heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9? Nowhere! Again, you force such into the text.

Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

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Jesus is coming to punish those on earth. Will He punish the righteous with the wicked? No! He will take us to the homes He has prepared for us, to wait out his punishment.

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Exactly, He is bringing total and utter destruction.

Isaiah speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-27:1, and also identifies it with the time and events that surround the end of the millennium, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

This tells us that God is keeping the dead in Christ in a safe place until the wicked events of this scene of time have finally been brought to an end and perfect righteousness has been introduced to the new earth. This tells me that the current state of sin and corruption with plagues this earth will be eliminated upon Christ’s return. The new earth that God’s glorified saints will populate will be perfect and pristine.

In this reading Isaiah testifies of the time when he personally, as an Old Testament saint, will be physically resurrected to meet the Lord at His Coming. In doing so, he links this to time when “the earth shall cast out the dead.” Significantly, he relates this climactic resurrection to the dead generally and explains how it corresponds with the great judgment of the wicked, at the end, “for their iniquity.” This occasion plainly embodies all the characteristics of that impending Last Day.

Isaiah describes how this day sees the time when the wicked are raised to be judged, which as we have seen is the very same time that the Old Testament saints are also raised. The passage declares, “behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” The Hebrew word used here for slain is ‘harag’ meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, and put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore assuredly happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

There is such an obvious finality to this whole reading that no one could surely argue with any credence that it is speaking of anything other than the end of the world. Moreover, this climactic event also sees the complete destruction of that great enemy of the kingdom of God – that old serpent/dragon Satan and the wicked is once and for all destroyed. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

Question: When God turns the seas into blood: how do the saints left behind get anything different than the sinner? They don't.

When God turns all fresh water into blood, how do the saints left behind get anything different than the sinner? They won't.

When God turns out the lights and leaves total darkness, will the saints left behind magically be able to see? NO.

When God turns up the heat and scorches men with heat; will the saints left behind magically be exempt? NO!

These are reasons God is not setting any appointments for us with His wrath. He is going to take us OUT.

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Revelation is written in apocalyptic language. Revelation 1:1 says, “The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified (or semaino) it by his angel unto his servant John.”

The order: God - Christ - Angel – (signified or symbolised) John

This Greek word semaino is found seven times in the New Testament and is interpreted as follows in the King James Version:

Signs (John 4:48)
Signify (Acts 25:27)
Signifying (John 12:33, 18:32, 21:19)
Signified (Acts 11:28; Revelation 1:1)

this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time.

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This is a simply misunderstanding. He is coming for resurrection saints. But in the process of coming for them, He must bring the spirits of those who have passed.

He does not come WITH His resurrection saints until 7 years later as shown in Rev, 19.

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You cannot even show us your supposed Pretrib rapture in Revelation yet you are wanting to insist that your tribulation is is 7 years long and it is followed by a 3rd coming. This is ridiculous. You are winging it! The reality is, there is only one future coming of Christ. It is final, climactic, and ushers in the resurrection/judgment and the eternal state.

iamlamad said:

Revelation 20 is very clear that there are two resurrections, the first called "the first resurrection." the second, if titled at all, is called "the second death" resurrection. You can find both of these in Rev. 20.

Again I ask, if there are two separate verses showing a resurrection, separate from each other by time, do we NEED one verse showing two? The answer is NO!

Two judgment days? Sorry, there is ONE final judgment day after the 1000 years.
At this judgment, the saints are exempt. No appointment and no show. It tells us where these people come from: heaven is not listed. However, there is a judgment seat of Christ where only the born again will be.

There is not scripture that has judgment days (plural). However, there are separate scriptures that show us the judgment seat of Christ and another that shows us the final judgment.

Question: do you move the 6th seal (and events) to the time of Rev 19?

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Obviously, the answer is: i have zero corroboration elsewhere in Scripture for Premil. You have avoided my questions re the first resurrection because it decimates Pretrib and Premil. In reality, Revelation 20 describes the intra-Advent period.

Scripture only knows of one general resurrection and one general judgment. The righteous and the wicked are both judged when Jesus comes. It is the end of the world. There is no second chance as Pretrib falsely teaches.

iamlamad said:

No one escapes the sudden destruction The truth is, these two words together, "sudden destruction" does not give any information on how many died. Someone would have to ad lib that, for it is not in those two words. Now, if we take "“destroyed them all.”, that is something different: it DOES tell us how many died. Can't you see the difference?

As much as you may long for your theory to be right, it is impossible. Jesus is not going to be fighting at the battle of Armageddon and at the very same moment in time be setting on His throne judging the sheep and goats. There is TIME between these two events. This time makes your theory simply impossible: there will be no goats, for you have killed them all before the time of the judgment.

As for Noah and Lot, the main thought Jesus was bringing is the suddenness of their destruction: in both examples, they were living their life to the fullest, thinking this day would be just like yesterday, but suddenly their destruction came.

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Your doctrine cannot stand up to a literal objective fair biblical examination. That is because it is an extra-biblical man-made doctrine. Let us look 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The elect are rescued in full, the wicked are destroyed in full. You say the wicked escape, the Holy Spirt say: "they shall not escape." You are fighting (once again) with the Word of God!!! The “wrath” of God is here linked with the “sudden destruction” that befalls those that are in the dark when Jesus comes. Significantly the whole context of this reading is the destruction of those who abide in darkness and the rescue of those who are in light. There is no third group that is half enlightened. Despite the destruction that hits all left behind the writers.

2 Peter 3:3-13 couldn't be clearer: “Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming (parousia)? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Creation will be finally purged of wickedness, all the wicked, rebellion and all degeneration forever when Jesus comes. If the remedy for the corruption of the old heavens and earth is the introduction of a brand-new perfect heavens and earth then we are looking at an all-consummating reference to the destruction of the current globe and the existing heavens. The old arrangement that is marked by sin and insurrection is indeed destroyed by fire (as Peter said) and changed to a new glorified perfect arrangement “wherein dwelleth righteousness.” This allows no room for the continuation of unrighteousness or corruption, as Premils insists. Such is totally eliminated through the conflagration.

The new heavens and new earth are such a stark contrast to this current present evil age that is blighted by all the result of the fall, including the existence of Satan. The new arrangement is especially noted for “righteousness.”

Scripture tells us that we are coming back to earth, but it will be a regenerated earth (Malachi 4:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50, 2 Peter 3). It will be an earth totally purged of all deterioration. The new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the Coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. This current earth will be totally changed/regenerated – making it a new curse-free environment. The earth will be restored to its previous pristine condition. These passages would sway me towards the position that this earth will remain forever – only in a new condition.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-51, “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

After telling us that “Heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Coming of the Lord is presented as the closing day of time and history. It is a day that sees the final and total destruction of the wicked. In fact, after presenting the events that preceded the flood of Noah’s day that saw the obliteration of the wicked, Christ highlights the fact that the judgment “took them all away.” He then likens it to the day of His return, explaining, “so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.” All these associated elements are carefully brought together to demonstrate the climactic nature of Christ’s return. Mark 13:31 correlates, saying, “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Luke says the same, in Luke 21:33, saying, “heaven and earth shall pass away.” Again the passing away of this current “heaven and earth” are carefully connected by Christ to His Second Coming. The timing mentioned here agrees with 2 Peter 3:10-13 which shows the heavens and earth passing away when the day of the Lord arrives as a thief in the night.

iamlamad said:

Why are you always looking for one clear scripture? If there was one clear scripture, we would all agree on these things. We must form doctrine from what God gave us. Have you noticed yet that John saw the great crowd too large to number (the raptured church) in chapter 7, between the 6th and 7th seal, proving they are before the 70th week or trib?

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LOL. Where is the 70th week even mentioned in Revelation? Nowhere! Again, like every other aspect of your doctrine, you have to force it into Scripture.

There are multiple clear Scriptures that teach a climactic coming, but you are blind to them because your teachers have taught you wrong. It is only pride that causes us to fight with Scripture.

iamlamad said:

There is also proof (shown by the multitude of posttribber posts) that there is not one single proof text anywhere that proves beyond any doubt that the rapture is posttrib.

Indeed, assuming the rapture is posttrib brings up many problems with other scriptures. Case in point: posttribbers cannot get to the marriage and supper which will be in heaven before Christ descends (comes). Posttribbers cannot find and sheep for the sheep and goat judgment. Posttribbers cannot find saints left in natural bodies to replenish the earth.

The closest the bible gets to one event immediately following another is the Olivet discourse and the book of Revelation. Neither one is a complete list of all events. However, other scriptures do show one event followed by another. In 1 Thes. 4 & 5,. the rapture is followed by the Day of the Lord. NO TIME between. In Revelation the church seen in heaven is followed by the 70th week.

Look, of there were clear verses, the forums would not have thousands of posts filled with disagreements. The truth is, there ARE NO clear verses showing everything in need order, one event followed by another. We have to take ALL end times scriptures to form doctrine. The sad thing is, some people read Matthew 24 and form an end time doctrine from that ONE PASSAGE! No wonder there is so much disagreement!

Probably the clearest place to see the timing of the rapture is where John saw the raptured church in heaven, between the 6th and 7th seal, then the 70th week following.

Sorry, but you have it backwards: it is postrib that dumps various scriptures into a pot and pulls them out to attempt to prove what is not truth.

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There are only problems for Posttrib Premils, not Posttrib Amils. Revelation is full of recaps. Revelation 19 describes the climactic coming of the Lord and the destruction of all the wicked. It tells us that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldn't wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. That is as water-tight in my estimation and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

What is more, Revelation 19:7-8 describes the marriage of the bride to her husband at the second coming, Revelation 21:2 also describes the marriage of the bride to her husband when the new heavens and new earth arrive.

iamlamad said:

This word is used 23 times in the New Testament, and all but one in the gospels -

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Actually, the Greek word συναγωγή (sunagoge) appears more than fifty times in the NT. Your analysis is incorrect; albeit consistent with much of your interpretations.

iamlamad said:

I think the early church met in homes, and I can find no reference that they called it with the same name.

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James 2:2 “συναγωγή” translated assembly.

Acts 13:43 “συναγωγή” translated congregation.

summerville said:

Jesus' directive to flee to the mountains when they saw the AoD has always fascinated me. Jesus followers did that.. As you said they fled to Pella in Jordan and avoided the horror that Josephus described.

To me that means the tribulation was local.

I enjoy your posts.

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The main study on Matthew 24 and related passages will elaborate on this.I give God thanks that the posts have been of benefit to someone.

Davy said:

Christ's Olivet discourse is linked to many other Bible Scriptures like the OT prophets and our Lord Jesus' Revelation. It is linked to the timing Apostle Paul gave for the end regarding the gathering of the Church and Christ's coming. It is linked to the Book of Daniel from which Jesus quoted in warning of the "abomination of desolation" idol inside the temple a false one in Jerusalem is to setup, which never happened in 70 A.D. It is linked to the gathering to Christ events that Paul covered in 1 Thess.4.

So arguments about exactly 'who' our Lord Jesus was giving those signs to are moot, because the many other Scripture witnesses to those signs are plentiful, and show those signs are for the very end of this present world.

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You are correct for the most part except for the comment about Daniel in my humble understanding.A fuller study on Matthew 24 will elaborate.The aim of the post was to show that Jesus was actually addressing His Church whom He referred to as,YOU,in contrast to unbelieving Israel whom He referred to as,THEY.This exposes the lie that the gathering in the passage is a gathering of Israel and not the Church as it clearly is.

Matthew 24:
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


The apostles here are clearly asking about more than one event.The destruction of the temple,the signs which would indicate that He is coming and also the end of the world(age).

His answers seem to include responses to these concerns but were so done,especially in Mathhew's account,that it has caused confusion among many.Many confuse the description of events which concern the destruction of the temple with end time events and the reverse is also true.Others even claim that the passage has nothing to do with the return of the Lord but was all fulfilled in the 70 A.D. destruction of the temple.By comparing Matthew's account,with the account given by Luke however,it is possible to gain a fairly good understanding of the Lord's words.


Jesus answered by saying:

Matthew 24;
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

It appears Jesus started by answering the last part of the question first.Luke in his account does not give as complex a question from the disciples as did Matthew.In Luke's account they ask:

Luke 21:
5And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said,
6As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
7And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

This is similiar to the account given by Mark.Does this mean the additional parts of the question in Matthew may not be authentic?Not necessarily.In multiple accounts of any event it is the norm that some accounts will have information not supplied by others and by combining all the accuonts we are able to get a more detailed and accurate report of of the event.The answers given also will show whether or not the additional parts of the question in Matthew have been answered in the various accounts.This will show that rather than being spurious the account given by Matthew is more complete as it shows the additional parts of the disciples question,which explains the answers given.

What is the response according to Luke?

Luke 21:
8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

Luke also appears not to be answering the question about the temple but instead went on the speak about what was to be happening close to the end.

Luke continued by saying:

Luke 21:
10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Matthew's account:

Matthew 24:
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.

At this point both accounts are in harmony and have nothing to say about the destruction of the temple.At this point an important difference in the two accounts occur and in order to understand the chronology of Jesus' answer in Matthew 24,we must turn to Luke or confusion and a grave misunderstanding will occur.


Luke introduces a statement which allows us to see Jesus answering the question about the destruction of the temple and giving the sequence in which this will occur.Matthew does not show this sequence but his account gives the appearance of a continuing of events previously described.Luke shows clearly that Jesus reverts from a description of things occuring near the end and describes what will happen before these things.Luke says:

Luke 21:
12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
13And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
18But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19In your patience possess ye your souls.


Luke's account explains that before the events described previously other things will happen.This is a description of persecution which the disciples would have encountered after Jesus' ascension.Matthew however says it this way:

Matthew 24:
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Which is actually a combined description of what will happen to the disciples both before the events of the time of end (vs.9-10) and also of the events leading up to the end.(vs.11-14)

Compare:

Matthew
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.[Happens before the end and at the end]
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.[Description of the end]

Luke
8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.


Included in the events which occur before the end time events is the destruction of Jerusalem.Matthew describes it in this way and those who claim that the end is the destruction of Jerusalem will use this to support their view since it is the next thing described after the statement,"and then shall the end come".

Matthew continues:

Matthew 24:
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Luke continuing to describe the events before the events of the time of the end(but before all of these)says:

Luke 21:
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

N.B. Luke call the "the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel"," when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh".

At this point Luke goes on to describe the events after the destruction of Jerusalem and which lead up to the coming of the Lord.Matthew also goes on to describe these events.

Luke 21:
25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Luke simply describes the events leading up to the coming of the Lord and which will usher in the kingdom of God ie. the end.


Matthew 24:
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Matthew describes events after the destruction of Jerusalem(the tribulation of those days) and also events leading up to the coming of the Lord.Here at the end both accounts are more or less in harmony again.

The pre-trib.rapture finds a part of its nomenclature in this passage but is contradicted by the fact that the coming of the Lord occurs after the tribulation mentioned.A misunderstanding of the passage and the lie that this passage is addressing Israel and not the Church assists in perpetuating the error of a secret rapture before tribulation.


safswan.