Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

Der Alte · Mar 19, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
If you look to scholars to understand God's Word to understand what His Word says, I could not disagree more with this kind of approach to knowing what God's Word says.
Let's just say there is nothing more to talk about if you take this kind of approach. There is no foundation to stand upon in my view with this approach to understanding God's Word because it does not use the biblical method that I have mentioned before. Sure, you say you believe that you ask God for the understanding on His Word, and you believe that obeying God's Word helps you to also understand, but by what you said so far, the evidence points to how you look to educated men by worldly education and methodology and you do not take a complete reliance upon the two things I mentioned.
I believe comparing Scripture with Scripture in what the Word plainly says in the world language of today, asking God for the understanding, and obeying Him is the key to understanding His Word. You keep talking about scholars which shows that you have a different method.
Continue to believe as you wish.
What you say is not in line with what I believe is the way to the truth.
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" (Psalms 11:3).

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 2:4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our heart

Aussie Pete · Mar 19, 2020

FineLinen said:
Good grief!

What our Father, the Beginning & Ending cherishes I shall. He is the God of restoration, His beloved Son has a middle Name (Isous).

God IS Saviour! He is not a potential Saviour, He IS Saviour!

He is Saviour of all mankind (the radical pas)

AND

He is the Saviour of the especially/ malista.

AND

"It is in Him, and through the shedding of His blood, that we have our deliverance--the forgiveness of our offences--so abundant was God's grace, the grace which He, the possessor of all wisdom and understanding, lavished upon us, when He made known to us the secret of His will. And this is in harmony with God's merciful purpose for the government of the world when the times are ripe for it--the purpose which He has cherished in His own mind of restoring the whole creation to find its one Head in Christ; yes, things in Heaven and things on earth, to find their one Head in Him."

You can use the Bible to prove almost anything. Some people have "proved" that the earth is flat. UR people use the same methods. Find scriptures that support your position and ignore the rest.

'Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may spread quickly and be held in honor, just as it was with you. 2And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men; for not everyone holds to the faith. 3But the Lord is faithful, and He will strengthen you and guard you from the evil one.…"

My Bible tells me that I am saved by grace, through faith. What does yours say?

Aussie Pete · Mar 19, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I was on the fence for a good long while on Eternal Torment and Conditional Immortality. I had a list of verses supporting both views, but then one day God answered my prayer, and He showed me the truth that Eternal Torment was not biblical. This affirmed what was also gnawing at my own soul in that Eternal Torment was also not moral and good, either. Many have head knowledge, but they do not read the Scriptures with their heart involved.

Hmmm. My Bible says that the heart is deceitful above all things.

I wish UR was true. I don't know how dead people can be made alive again in the next life, when they will experience the second death. Death is not the end of existence. It is separation from God (as in the garden of Eden). If sin caused man to rebel and hide from God in the first place, what will effect a change in the next? How will man be born again in the next life? There is no opportunity. God has provided the perfect salvation. It is still man's choice to accept or reject.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 19, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
Hmmm. My Bible says that the heart is deceitful above all things.

I knew somebody was going to bring up that verse. The heart I am referring to is the new born again heart and it is not the carnal dead's man's heart that has never been made alive by the Lord.

You said:
I wish UR was true. I don't know how dead people can be made alive again in the next life, when they will experience the second death. Death is not the end of existence. It is separation from God (as in the garden of Eden). If sin caused man to rebel and hide from God in the first place, what will effect a change in the next? How will man be born again in the next life? There is no opportunity. God has provided the perfect salvation. It is still man's choice to accept or reject.

I actually don't wish Universal Salvation (or Universal Reconciliation) is true because it would make the life that we live here as being meaningless. No matter what one did, they would be forced to be with God (despite what good or evil they did). God would lobotomize the wicked to be good in the end. So this life could be whatever you want it to be and nothing you did would matter and you and everyone else would all eventually end up in the same place of forced happiness. There would be no true justice. This is also the problem with Eternal Torment. It is not true justice because God is punishing the wicked waaay beyond what the crime calls for. God is punishing a finite amount of crimes with an infinite punishment. That doesn't sound fair or good.

Certain men who appear to be well learned or educated will say that Eternal Torment is true because that is just what God's Word says based on their higher education. But there is no heart behind Eternal Torment, no matter all the head knowledge that a person claims to have. Eternal Torment offers no true comfort. No love. That is what I mean by heart.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 19, 2020

Der Alter said:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Galatians 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
1 Thessalonians 2:4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our heart

I believe these verses just fine. I just do not agree with your hermeneutics. I don't agree with going primarily to scholars or men to learn God's Word. I believe the scholars are the scribes of our day. Jesus said beware of the scribes. Bible schools actually have led people to leave the faith. Not just here in America, but in other countries, too. Bible schools actually place God's people into debt to learn God's Word. That sure is not nice. James says God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. James did not say God chose the scholar of this world to be rich in faith.

Aussie Pete · Mar 20, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I knew somebody was going to bring up that verse. The heart I am referring to is the new born again heart and it is not the carnal dead's man's heart that has never been made alive by the Lord.

I actually don't wish Universal Salvation (or Universal Reconciliation) is true because it would make the life that we live here as being meaningless. No matter what one did, they would be forced to be with God (despite what good or evil they did). God would lobotomize the wicked to be good in the end. So this life could be whatever you want it to be and nothing you did would matter and you and everyone else would all eventually end up in the same place of forced happiness. There would be no true justice. This is also the problem with Eternal Torment. It is not true justice because God is punishing the wicked waaay beyond what the crime calls for. God is punishing a finite amount of crimes with an infinite punishment. That doesn't sound fair or good.

Certain men who appear to be well learned or educated will say that Eternal Torment is true because that is just what God's Word says based on their higher education. But there is no heart behind Eternal Torment, no matter all the head knowledge that a person claims to have. Eternal Torment offers no true comfort. No love. That is what I mean by heart.

So how do twice dead people get to live again?

Shrewd Manager · Mar 20, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
Some people have "proved" that the earth is flat. UR people use the same methods.

Do you mean something like this?

For every scripture or narrative in support of damnation of many, we find 7 in support of restoration of all.
There's many scriptures in support of a flat, motionless and enclosed Earth, but not one in support of a spinning gyrating waterball in space.

Oh I know, it shows a woeful lack of discernment to the point of heresy on the part of anyone who actually puts stock in these little facts.

Next we'll be preaching the plague is fake news and the great fires were set up. Inconceivable.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 20, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
So how do twice dead people get to live again?

You are referring to those in Jude. There are those who are waterless clouds, plucked up by the roots, and who are twice dead (Jude 1:12). These are the believers who have physically died thinking that they can justify sin in this life and never repented of such a wrong belief (i.e. They thought they do not lose salvation by sin, instead of them confessing and forsaking sin). They turned God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). They appeared to be for holiness and thus they were able to slip in among regular faithful believers at that time (Jude 1:4). They were dead once spiritually before coming to the Lord, and they died a second time spiritually by later falling for the wrong belief in that they could justify sin and still be saved.

But can a person who is twice dead be saved again?

While those in Jude who are twice dead never repented in this life of their wrong belief in justifying sin (meaning, they died believing that way), a believer can come back from their prodigal ways if they heed the Spirit's conviction of their sin (and or their wrong belief in justifying sin). So the answer to this question is... Yes.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son teaches this. We learn in the Parable of the Prodigal Son that when the son came home and sought forgiveness with his father, he was said by his father that he was "dead," and he is now "alive again." This parable is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was dead spiritually and he became alive again spiritually.

Let's look at the actual verses.

"For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry." (Luke 15:24).

"It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." (Luke 15:32).

The prodigal son was not just only dead spiritually when he was spending his inheritance money on prostitutes, but his father also said (after his son came home and sought forgiveness with him) that his son was "alive AGAIN." This is only possible if the son was saved prior to his falling into a prodigal life of sin beforehand. When he lived in a life of sin, he was dead spiritually. When he came back home from his life of sin, and sought forgiveness with his father, he became "alive AGAIN." The prodigal son became alive AGAIN spiritually. This means that a believer can fall away and die spiritually for a time, and then come back to the saving of their soul again.

James 5:19-20 teaches a similar truth.

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20).

Not sure if you caught what it said in this passage. We are told that if any of us errs (falls away) from the truth (that faithful path of truth in following Jesus), and another faithful believer converts us back to the faith (by getting us to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ of our prodigal sinful ways), that faithful believer (who helped to save us) should know that they help to save a soul from spiritual death, and they helped hide a multitude of their past sins (while prodigal).

Aussie Pete · Mar 20, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
You are referring to those in Jude. There are those who are waterless clouds, plucked up by the roots, and who are twice dead (Jude 1:12). These are the believers who have physically died thinking that they can justify sin in this life and never repented of such a wrong belief (i.e. They thought they do not lose salvation by sin, instead of them confessing and forsaking sin). They turned God's grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). They appeared to be for holiness and thus they were able to slip in among regular faithful believers at that time (Jude 1:4). They were dead once spiritually before coming to the Lord, and they died a second time spiritually by later falling for the wrong belief in that they could justify sin and still be saved.

But can a person who is twice dead be saved again?

While those in Jude who are twice dead never repented in this life of their wrong belief in justifying sin (meaning, they died believing that way), a believer can come back from their prodigal ways if they heed the Spirit's conviction of their sin (and or their wrong belief in justifying sin). So the answer to this question is... Yes.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son teaches this. We learn in the Parable of the Prodigal Son that when the son came home and sought forgiveness with his father, he was said by his father that he was "dead," and he is now "alive again." This parable is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was dead spiritually and he became alive again spiritually.

Let's look at the actual verses.

"For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry." (Luke 15:24).

"It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." (Luke 15:32).

The prodigal son was not just only dead spiritually when he was spending his inheritance money on prostitutes, but his father also said (after his son came home and sought forgiveness with him) that his son was "alive AGAIN." This is only possible if the son was saved prior to his falling into a prodigal life of sin beforehand. When he lived in a life of sin, he was dead spiritually. When he came back home from his life of sin, and sought forgiveness with his father, he became "alive AGAIN." The prodigal son became alive AGAIN spiritually. This means that a believer can fall away and die spiritually for a time, and then come back to the saving of their soul again.

James 5:19-20 teaches a similar truth.

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20).

Not sure if you caught what it said in this passage. We are told that if any of us errs (falls away) from the truth (that faithful path of truth in following Jesus), and another faithful believer converts us back to the faith (by getting us to seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ of our prodigal sinful ways), that faithful believer (who helped to save us) should know that they help to save a soul from spiritual death, and they helped hide a multitude of their past sins (while prodigal).

All that you are saying applies to people in this life. I agree that death is separation from God. It is not the end of existence. We are born dead in trespass and sin. Those who face God's judgement in that state, all that awaits them is the second death - the lake of fire. No thanks. Only the spiritually alive have a place in heaven. Those who are born again cannot die spiritually. That's what it means to have eternal life. Everyone else - there is no second chance.

Aussie Pete · Mar 20, 2020

Shrewd Manager said:
Do you mean something like this?

For every scripture or narrative in support of damnation of many, we find 7 in support of restoration of all.

There's many scriptures in support of a flat, motionless and enclosed Earth, but not one in support of a spinning gyrating waterball in space.

Oh I know, it shows a woeful lack of discernment to the point of heresy on the part of anyone who actually puts stock in these little facts.

Next we'll be preaching the plague is fake news and the great fires were set up. Inconceivable.

So we tell people that Jesus loves them and had a wonderful plan for their lives? That it does not matter how they live because they will be saved anyway? That God's wrath is not at all what it is made out to be: Just a bit of finger wagging and telling people they should behave better? But no reason why? Perhaps we do people a disservice preaching the gospel (I've been told that). If they don't know, they are not accountable. Better to let them die in ignorance.

The earth is a globe. I've traversed a reasonable amount of it by sea and by air. If it was not a globe, the atmosphere would never had been formed as there would not be enough gravity to hold it. Life as we know it would be impossible.

Bible Highlighter · Mar 20, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
All that you are saying applies to people in this life. I agree that death is separation from God. It is not the end of existence. We are born dead in trespass and sin. Those who face God's judgement in that state, all that awaits them is the second death - the lake of fire. No thanks. Only the spiritually alive have a place in heaven. Those who are born again cannot die spiritually. That's what it means to have eternal life. Everyone else - there is no second chance.

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)

Shrewd Manager · Mar 20, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
So we tell people that Jesus loves them and had a wonderful plan for their lives? That it does not matter how they live because they will be saved anyway? That God's wrath is not at all what it is made out to be: Just a bit of finger wagging and telling people they should behave better? But no reason why? Perhaps we do people a disservice preaching the gospel (I've been told that). If they don't know, they are not accountable. Better to let them die in ignorance.

Well, the fear of eternal torment seems to have worked a treat so far to promote good behaviour. Could it be that you have it back-to-front? We love God because He loved us first, not because He threatened us first.

UR doesn't say everyone just gets admitted as they are. Sinners need to wash their robes in the lake of fire, impure believers need to buy gold refined in the fire. We're only saved by grace through the faith of Christ. Once the gospel reveals the truth, the HS comes in and changes heart and mind. UR holds to the hope that every prodigal son returns home at some point.

Aussie Pete said:
The earth is a globe. I've traversed a reasonable amount of it by sea and by air. If it was not a globe, the atmosphere would never had been formed as there would not be enough gravity to hold it. Life as we know it would be impossible.

You'll persuade me by not leaning on your own understanding and by walking in faith not sight.

FineLinen · Mar 20, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
These may be described as characteristics of Hell and arguably even different compartments of Hell, but it to say that there are four separate hells is not supported by scripture. What you listed are all associated with the same place.

But for those who are already in Hell, it is too late for them. Nothing in scripture that suggests that they will get a second chance. Better to declare Jesus as Lord willingly and now than to be forced to then.

The translators (some of them) should be advised of your findings. (lol)

I will again point out that wee word "in". The confession by all beings, in all dimensions, (including the underworld), are not worshipping the Lord out of constraint or by perfunctory genuflections but IN/EN the Name of all names.

I will again state there is zero chance in our Lord. None!

“Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will…”

Chance = sunkuria =

A meeting together by a coincidence of circumstances.

A concurrence of events rather than chance!

FineLinen · Mar 20, 2020

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

Zoe is rooted in zaō.

Zoe =

Zoe - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

zaō =

Life, live, quick in the Bible (127 verses). Greek: ζάω, zaō, G2198

"Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit." - J.B. Rotherham Emphasized-

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Disobedient= apeitheo=

Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

To refuse belief and obedience.

Not to comply with.

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.

Der Alte · Mar 20, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe these verses just fine. I just do not agree with your hermeneutics.

If you have a different hermeneutic then you are wrong. If I am wrong prove it from scripture alone, not some supposed spiritual discernment.

I don't agree with going primarily to scholars or men to learn God's Word.

Good neither do I if that is what you are accusing me of. If anything I might have quoted from a scholar is wrong prove it. Don't just make empty accusations.

I believe the scholars are the scribes of our day.

Prove it !

Jesus said beware of the scribes.

If I ever encounter any I will but you don't get to decide who they are without proof.

Bible schools actually have led people to leave the faith.

I've heard this nonsense many times but have seen no, zero, none evidence. Once upon a time the military trained me to fly helicopters. I never saw any students telling the instructors they were wrong. I wonder why that is?

Not just here in America, but in other countries, too.

Evidence, documentation, substantiation?

Bible schools actually place God's people into debt to learn God's Word. That sure is not nice.

Actually no they don't. Denominational Bible schools are usually funded in part by their denomination. Some of the ivy league schools might.

James says God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. James did not say God chose the scholar of this world to be rich in faith.

That's nice, just a po' boy from Oklahoma, I wasn't rich when I went to grad school or when I got out. But I cannot find any scripture which says we should listen to every anonymous person on the internet. The 1st century equivalent would be listening to all the folks on Mars hill or every "prophet" who came along.

Der Alte · Mar 20, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
...
Certain men who appear to be well learned or educated will say that Eternal Torment is true because that is just what God's Word says based on their higher education. But there is no heart behind Eternal Torment, no matter all the head knowledge that a person claims to have. Eternal Torment offers no true comfort. No love. That is what I mean by heart.

Total rubbish.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12

…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4

…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

Bible Highlighter · Mar 20, 2020

Der Alter said:
If you have a different hermeneutic then you are wrong. If I am wrong prove it from scripture alone, not some supposed spiritual discernment.

Jesus said beware of the scribes (Luke 20:46). Scribes are those who 'tran-scribe" the Scriptures. The folks who have transcribed the Scriptures in the past couple of hundred years are called "scholars." Jesus is telling us to beware of them and not to implicitly trust them. James 2:5 says, "Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?" So it's not the fat cat scholars who are to be rich in faith.

You said:
Good neither do I if that is what you are accusing me of. If anything I might have quoted from a scholar is wrong prove it. Don't just make empty accusations.

You believe in adhering to the original languages (Which is having faith in the work of scholars to understand such a language). You also quoted Bullinger instead of Scripture to make your point in a previous post.

Bible Highlighter said:
I believe the scholars are the scribes of our day.

You said:
Prove it !

The word "transcribe" is based on the word "scribe"; Hence, the word "tran-scribe."
It is to transcribe or write the Scriptures (either to make copies, or to translate into another language).

Ezra was a scribe who wrote down the commandments of the Lord.

"Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel." (Ezra 7:11).

Ezra was a scribe of the written Law of Moses.

"This Ezra went up from Babylon; and he was a ready scribe in the law of Moses, which the LORD God of Israel had given: and the king granted him all his request, according to the hand of the LORD his God upon him." (Ezra 7:6).

So if that is the function of what a scribe is according to the Bible, then we can identify who the scribe are in the past couple of hundred years on throughout today. They make copies of the Scriptures, and or translate them into another language. The scribes are writers of God's Word. This is what scholars do. They write or transcribe the Scriptures or the Holy Bible.

Jesus said to beware of them (Luke 20:46).

You said:
If I ever encounter any I will but you don't get to decide who they are without proof.

There is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes 1:9).

You said:
I've heard this nonsense many times but have seen no, zero, none evidence. Once upon a time the military trained me to fly helicopters. I never saw any students telling the instructors they were wrong. I wonder why that is? Evidence, documentation, substantiation?

I am not talking about secular education, but education in God's Word. The way a person learns God's Word is far different than by learning secular education, which is by secular means.

I have heard of men losing their faith by going to Bible school. These are not just rumors. My wife who is from Brazil said this happened to a Christian man she knew of in her church within Brazil. This is something that is not foreign to others, as well.

Why students lose their faith in college | Cru

Ministries tackle 70% rate of college students leaving faith

Bible schools are in it for the money. Most students who attend there look and act like the world. The professors are trained to teach that the only way you can know the Bible is by knowing the original languages. The poor rich guy on the street cannot be rich in faith like the fat cat Bible school professors or scholars.

You said:
Actually no they don't. Denominational Bible schools are usually funded in part by their denomination. Some of the ivy league schools might.

It still costs them money. That's the point. God's Word is free. Yet, they charge money so as to learn God's Word.

What Is the Average Cost to Attend a Christian College? - Online Christian Colleges

"Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price." (Isaiah 55:1).

Nowhere does the Bible talk about how you must attend a Bible school to understand God's Word. On the contrary, men learn God's Word by the Anointing.

"But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:" (1 John 2:27).

Not sure you caught what it said, but it says that no man has taught the believers in who John was writing to. They were taught by the "Anointing."

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (1 Corinthians 2:13).

You said:
That's nice, just a po' boy from Oklahoma, I wasn't rich when I went to grad school or when I got out. But I cannot find any scripture which says we should listen to every anonymous person on the internet. The 1st century equivalent would be listening to all the folks on Mars hill or every "prophet" who came along.

A poor person is a person who is either on the street, or their income is at the poverty level or lower. A person who is on the street will not have access to Bible college and or Lexicons. While many men and women at the poverty level can afford to gain access to internet and or a Lexicon, this is not always the case for them all. Some may live in a place that makes it difficult to travel far (like to a library) and or to even have internet. The point here is that if a person has an average job and they have a computer, cell phone, car, descent apartment, large TV, DVD collection, they are not poor. Have you ever traveled before? Poor people generally cannot afford to travel. They are too busy working in a low income job to make ends meet.

Certain professors can make 95,000.

The Highest Paying Theology Careers - Theology Degrees

This is the source or the well spring by which a believer who looks to scholars will drink from. That's the point. So it does not matter if you are rich or poor. James says God has chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith. So why would a person want to go to a rich professor to learn from if he is the opposite of being poor?

Bible Highlighter · Mar 20, 2020

Der Alter said:
Total rubbish.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);
[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol]] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that often it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as merely death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs?

As for your outside sources in regards to Eternal Torment:

I am for Sola Scriptura + the Anointing to Understand it.
Here is my case for Sola Scriptura:
A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura!

As for your references in Scripture about the punishment of the wicked being eternal:

The Bible used words like: "forever," and its synonyms (i.e. related words) in reference to other things that are temporal (See: Post #116 to see some examples in Scripture). So just because "hell" is referred to in this way does not mean that it is forever.

Also, how do you explain the goodness or the morality behind Eternal Torment?
How is Eternal Torment in support of fair justice?
If a little girl had lied, should she be tortured horribly for the rest of her life for such a crime? Is that fair justice? Men commit finite crimes here upon this Earth, and yet you believe God will infinitely punish them for that. Doesn't sound like fair justice to me. But maybe you can explain it to me. Maybe you can give me a real world example or parable that Jesus made (to help me to see).

Der Alte · Mar 20, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
As for your outside sources in regards to Eternal Torment:
I am for Sola Scriptura + the Anointing to Understand it.
Here is my case for Sola Scriptura:
As for your references in Scripture about the punishment of the wicked being eternal:
The Bible used words like: "forever," and its synonyms (i.e. related words) in reference to other things that are temporal (See: to see some examples in Scripture). So just because "hell" is referred to in this way does not mean that it is forever.
Also, how do you explain the goodness or the morality behind Eternal Torment?
How is Eternal Torment in support of fair justice?
If a little girl had lied, should she be tortured horribly for the rest of her life for such a crime? Is that fair justice? Men commit finite crimes here upon this Earth, and yet you believe God will infinitely punish them for that. Doesn't sound like fair justice to me. But maybe you can explain it to me. Maybe you can give me a real world example or parable that Jesus made (to help me to see).

Sola Scriptura will not tell you what the Jews believed before and during the time of Jesus. This post clearly shows me that whatever "spiritual revelations" you are supposedly getting, they are false.
As for your tired old argument about the meaning of "aion" translated "eternity" and "aionios" translated "eternal."See my 3 posts in this thread at these links. These posts show, without question, that "aion" means "eternity" What about the times the words refer to things that are not eternal? Hyperbole. When Jesus called Herod a fox, he was not literally a fox. Hyperbole. When Jesus called Simon a stone, he was not literally a stone.Hyperbole. When Jesus called James and John sons of thunder, they were not literally sons of thunder. Hyperbole.
[Post #68]
[Post # 174]
[Post #166]

Contenders Edge · Mar 20, 2020

FineLinen said:
The translators (some of them) should be advised of your findings. (lol)

I will again point out that wee word "in". The confession by all beings, in all dimensions, (including the underworld), are not worshipping the Lord out of constraint or by perfunctory genuflections but IN/EN the Name of all names.

I will again state there is zero chance in our Lord. None!

“Having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will…”

Chance = sunkuria =

A meeting together by a coincidence of circumstances.

A concurrence of events rather than chance!

The problem is not with the translators but rather how you have made their meanings out to be something that they are not and do you really think that those in the underworld are giving praise to our Lord out of any sincere adoration for Him?

Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Well-Known Member

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