Discernment concerning Christian YouTubers

boxman144

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Hey all, Jesus guides.

So I had some questions regarding some YouTubers? These YouTubers to be exact.

Warningthepeople
Disciple Robert
Hated Apostle Cooper
Collin Michael
Tim Conway
thepostnihilist

Can you discern about their teachings? How do I know who is and who isn't telling the truth? I'm not well versed enough with the Bible to see for myself(I am trying). I also have a couple other questions. Feel free to answer with your take, but please quote Scripture.

>How do I become completely sin-less?

>What is your take on 1 John 2:15?

>How do I avoid pleasing the flesh?

>How do I deny myself?

>How can I please God?

>How can I not worry about Hell?

>How can I avoid Hell?

>How can I boost my prayer life?

>How does the Holy Spirit come to you?

> Is the Lord's Name Yeshua, Yeshawa, Yahweh, Yahshua, Yeshua Hamashiach, Rabbi, or Jesus?

> How can I turn my friends and family from a life of sin? (I really need answers on this one, the thought of my best friends and family being tortured in Hell for all eternity with no rest is one of my biggest worries.)

I seem to have given you guys a lot of questions. My apologies for that, do not feel pressured to respond instantly, and you definitely don't have to answer all of them. Any answers would be deeply appreciated and studied upon.

In Jesus Christ name,

boxman144
 

createdtoworship

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Hey all, Jesus guides.

So I had some questions regarding some YouTubers? These YouTubers to be exact.

Warningthepeople
Disciple Robert
Hated Apostle Cooper
Collin Michael
Tim Conway
thepostnihilist

Can you discern about their teachings? How do I know who is and who isn't telling the truth? I'm not well versed enough with the Bible to see for myself(I am trying). I also have a couple other questions. Feel free to answer with your take, but please quote Scripture.

>How do I become completely sin-less?

>What is your take on 1 John 2:15?

>How do I avoid pleasing the flesh?

>How do I deny myself?

>How can I please God?

>How can I not worry about Hell?

>How can I avoid Hell?

>How can I boost my prayer life?

>How does the Holy Spirit come to you?

> Is the Lord's Name Yeshua, Yeshawa, Yahweh, Yahshua, Yeshua Hamashiach, Rabbi, or Jesus?

> How can I turn my friends and family from a life of sin? (I really need answers on this one, the thought of my best friends and family being tortured in Hell for all eternity with no rest is one of my biggest worries.)

I seem to have given you guys a lot of questions. My apologies for that, do not feel pressured to respond instantly, and you definitely don't have to answer all of them. Any answers would be deeply appreciated and studied upon.

In Jesus Christ name,

boxman144
There are a lot of teachings out there on the internet. Some good and some bad. But the most I have ever learned was from reading through the scripture verse by verse in my daily walk. I am on my fourth time through the Bible. 20 years ago I read through 2X, then I quite. Then last year I started again, and this year and I on my 4th time through. I desire to never stop. But you can use the you version bible app and it will allow you to read through in a year. It's best to start at beginning of year for mental reasons, that way you are on a schedule at that point, which keeps you further accountable. I have over 15,000 books and I do watch some you tube channels. But I don't typically use external resources other than God's word. But having said that, I typically like watching testimonies of younger people. There is a you tube channel, that is not real popular, but I love it, and watch it all the time. But these are all people I met on twitter. There is a huge christian following on there. Twitter is pretty good about sending you stuff that you like. I started blocking all political people I was following and following only on fire christians. I realized that theology is not as important as learning to love well. Theology will be corrected as you read the scripture regularly in your life. I also recommend a few good commentaries to help interpret difficult passages. Halley's Bible handbook, I used my first two times through the Bible. And another commentary I love is the Bible Knowledge Commentary from walvwoord and zuck. But other expositional commentaries through the Bible are also good. But with those two little aides, you should be well on your way to finding out all the information you list above.

before you do anything start reading regularly through the Bible, I use you version Bible app for that.
secondly, get a twitter account and follow some or all of these people for a blessed time line:


(the first guy you list, didn't believe in the inspiration of the Bible and he was partly correct the english translations are not Holy Bibles, only the original Bible was Holy. And that does not exist, so I believe God has preserved His word through the generations and the more literal a translation you have the more accurate to the Holy version you are. I hope that makes sense. So only the original hebrew and greek primary documents are inspired, the copies and translations into other languages are not, So I only watched the first video of his you tube channel, (warning the people), the next two you tube channels seemed ok, but I only listened to five or ten minutes of their first video's. But you can usually see if someone is teaching by the Holy Spirit or not. But I don't endorse human beings, we are all fallible and no one is perfect so it's important to do your own studies.




Like I said I really invest into the younger generation on twitter, I see a zeal and a fire and a love that I had lost decades ago, so in trying to reignite my passion I followed several of them, here they are (at the bottom is a video from a youtube channel I subscribe to, very good stuff)
Twitter people I follow:
Grayson Bearden (@GraysonBearden) | Twitter
Michael Perrotti (@pike_merrotti) | Twitter
Rylee Praytor (@rcpraytor) | Twitter
coffeewithrach (@coffeewithrach) | Twitter
Micah Davis (@micahidavis) | Twitter
ally yarid (@allyyarid) | Twitter
Ian Rinken (@Ian_Rinken) | Twitter
Elizabeth Louise Faddis (@elfaddis) | Twitter
Yvonne (@lovey_doveyy) | Twitter
Shane Pruitt (@shane_pruitt78) | Twitter
Nadia Louise Thomas (@nadialthomas) | Twitter
Michala (@Michalawhite_) | Twitter
 
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Aussie Pete

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Hey all, Jesus guides.

So I had some questions regarding some YouTubers? These YouTubers to be exact.

Warningthepeople
Disciple Robert
Hated Apostle Cooper
Collin Michael
Tim Conway
thepostnihilist

Can you discern about their teachings? How do I know who is and who isn't telling the truth? I'm not well versed enough with the Bible to see for myself(I am trying). I also have a couple other questions. Feel free to answer with your take, but please quote Scripture.

I don't know the youtubers. Some clues:
Listen to the tone. If it is harsh and critical, it's not of God.
Does the youtuber consistently glorify Jesus?
Do they criticise other Christians all the time?
Are you being helped by what you hear?

>How do I become completely sin-less?

Die. In other words, not in this lifetime. You can overcome sin through seeing that you died with Christ and that sin no longer has any power of you. Ask God to open your eyes to see this truth.

>What is your take on 1 John 2:15?

You need to know what the world is. It is pretty much every human endeavour. We are in the world and we use the world, so to speak. We do not let the world control us. So if the world says its fine to sleep around, we do well to go by what God's word says and not the world.

>How do I avoid pleasing the flesh?

Learn to walk in the Spirit. It takes a bit of time and God is gracious. Example: My friend and I went for a walk this lunchtime. We went a different way than usual. As a result, we met up with a Christian we had not seen for some years. We had good time of sharing and we will be catching up again.

>How do I deny myself?

You need the power of the Holy Spirit. Self is a strong and crafty beast within. You already know how easy it to watch a movie compared with a time of prayer.

>How can I please God?

Don't bother trying. God is pleased with Jesus in you. God condemned you to death. You are dead in Christ already. You no longer count.

>How can I not worry about Hell?

Study the wonderful promises of God. See that your salvation is settled once and for all because Christ died in your place.

>How can I avoid Hell?

If you are born again, you are already in heaven (Ephesians 2:6)

>How can I boost my prayer life?

I write a lot of my prayers. It keeps my mind from wandering. List your requests. You can date them. When God answers, tick them as done. It is very encouraging.

>How does the Holy Spirit come to you?

All you need to do is ask (Luke 11:13)

> Is the Lord's Name Yeshua, Yeshawa, Yahweh, Yahshua, Yeshua Hamashiach, Rabbi, or Jesus?
Yes. I call Him Lord Jesus most of the time.

> How can I turn my friends and family from a life of sin? (I really need answers on this one, the thought of my best friends and family being tortured in Hell for all eternity with no rest is one of my biggest worries.)

Pray for them. Be an example in the way you live. Don't get too preachy.

I seem to have given you guys a lot of questions. My apologies for that, do not feel pressured to respond instantly, and you definitely don't have to answer all of them. Any answers would be deeply appreciated and studied upon.

In Jesus Christ name,

boxman144
 
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Carl Emerson

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Gidday pilgrim...

There is no shortcut to revelation.

Relationship first and wisdom will come.

The previous poster got it right.

Commune with Him in the Word.

Think years not months.

Pray wisely.

Pray to have an anguish in your spirit if you stray from His best.

Pray daily not to fall into deception.

I prayed this prayer for years...

Lord give me this day the desires to do your will and the grace to be obedient.
 
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GospelS

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>How do I avoid pleasing the flesh?

>How do I deny myself?

>How can I please God?

>How can I not worry about Hell?

>How can I avoid Hell?

>How can I boost my prayer life?

>How does the Holy Spirit come to you?

> How can I turn my friends and family from a life of sin?

All that by abiding in Jesus alone.


John 15:5 - I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.

How does abiding in Jesus look like?

Being grateful to God, intentional and active prayer life, meditating/reading God's word regularly, earnest desire to seek and follow God, hunger/thirst to know and hear Him, submission and obedience to His word, always trusting and leaning on Him.
 
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fwGod

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Hey all, Jesus guides.

So I had some questions regarding some YouTubers? These YouTubers to be exact.

Warningthepeople
Disciple Robert
Hated Apostle Cooper
Collin Michael
Tim Conway
thepostnihilist
Can you discern about their teachings?
If I took the time to listen to them but I'm not going to do that research. But "hated apostle cooper" sounds like a definite "no".. "do not listen to him."

When I googled Tim Conway, all that I got was the tv comedian.
How do I know who is and who isn't telling the truth?
Every Christian needs to get familiar with the scriptures and hopefully be attending a church that isn't preaching in error. That way it's easier to spot error.
Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice and the voice of a stranger they will not follow."

Check what they say with scripture.
I'm not well versed enough with the Bible to see for myself(I am trying).
That is usually what people rely on. That their audience doesn't know very much about the truth. Such are a cinch to deceive.

Always check what they say with scripture.
I also have a couple other questions. Feel free to answer with your take, but please quote Scripture.

>How do I become completely sin-less?
The word 'become' is to imply 'a not yet but will be'. The way to become born again (John 3:7; 1 Peter 1:23; John 1:12) in Christ is to be made new inwardly (2 Corinthians 5:17) in righteousness and holiness (Ephesians 4:24), however the mind and body are not born again. They remain as they were before you got saved. The Christian life is a process of growing spiritually (1 Peter 2:2; Romans 7:22), The soul is to be renewed in thinking patterns (Romans 12:2), and the body is to be disciplined, behaviors and habits subdued (Romans 8:13; Romans 7:5; James 4:7), which will reflect through your soul and body in character and integrity (Ephesians 4:13)

There is no scripture to indicate that the believer while on earth and in their flesh will ever be completely, totally sinless. It is only achieved when we get our glorified bodies at the rapture. Until then the apostle John says in 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." Therefore, when we sin we are to confess our sins in order to get cleansed of all unrighteousness. (1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9)
>What is your take on 1 John 2:15?
The love of the Father is exclusive. All love goes to the Father therefore no love is available for any things that are in the world.

That does not mean that you don't live in a home, or have a car, or wear clothes, or eat food. But it means that your interests should be minor and attention span should be short regarding all that's in the world.

After time with God, interest in news.. minor.. attention span in entertainment.. short. Put your attention on God even during them with prayers regarding people in the news and those featured in entertainment.
>How do I avoid pleasing the flesh?
Get your inner strength from God's word; reading, daily confessing, praying, fasting. In Matt.4 Jesus said that God's word is food, and He demonstrated God's word to be for strengthening the innerman to resist temptations.
>How do I deny myself?
That is a statement that can cover a lot. Jesus said, "Deny yourself, take up your cross and follow ME."

What does Jesus mean exactly? Does He mean 'crucify the flesh'? As in 'put to death the deeds of the body that you may live'.
Does He mean 'love not yourself but love others', doing as Jesus did while on the cross (confess scripture) and say 'Father forgive them for they know not what they do'.

In training your mind and flesh to be disciplined to obey you (the born again new creature in Christ).
James, chapt 3 taught.. that the tongue (what words you say in confession of pertinent scriptures) is the rudder on a large ship that governs the direction it will go. The rider on a horse uses the reigns with bit in the horses mouth to direct the horse to turn whichever way the rider decides.

That puts you in control of your mind and body, once you get control of your words to declare according to scriptures (James 3:2).
>How can I please God?
Do the above. Or confess scriptures that have to do with pleasing Him because God watches over His word to perform it.
>How can I not worry about Hell?
Do the above. Or confess scriptures of assurance of salvation because being saved means being delivered out from satan's grasp and into God's everlasting arms. It means that the saved name is written in the Lamb's book of life. With the indelible blood of Jesus. It means that your home is in heaven, your Father is God, your Elder Brother and Leader of your salvation and Bishop of your soul and the Shepherd of the sheep is Jesus.

Some say that one's salvation is not settled in heaven, but that salvation can be lost.. like one loses their car keys.

But that isn't scripturally accurate. Even the babe in Christ who sins frequently is still in God's grace which keeps them in God's Love that never fails. (more on that is detailed below)

Such is not the same as someone who is mature in the things of God (like the apostle Paul) who decides to denounce and blaspheme God and despise the blood of Jesus. For them they are separated from God by their own decision. They do not lose their salvation, they deliberately discard it.
>How can I avoid Hell?
Get saved. That is when you exchange your ticket to hell to a ticket to heaven.
>How can I boost my prayer life?
Already covered above.
>How does the Holy Spirit come to you?
Every breath you take is by the Holy Spirit. It's not, how does the Holy Spirit come to you.. it's, how do you come to the Holy Spirit?.. Do the above.
> Is the Lord's Name Yeshua, Yeshawa, Yahweh, Yahshua, Yeshua Hamashiach, Rabbi, or Jesus?
In Hebrew His Name is Yeshua Hamashiach. In English Jesus the Christ. To call Him Rabbi is to call Him Teacher, in taking His yoke upon you that you learn as taught by Him.

All the other options given are incorrect in spelling, are incorrect in thought process due to incorrect grammar concepts, and because there is no 'w' in Hebrew. Yeah I know, the word Hebrew is derived from the old testament man, ebra. Jew is derived from Judah. Both Hebrew and Jew are English.

The word spelled Yahweh is an incorrect letter replacement of YHVH.. to YHWH. The name Jahovah is derived from the Tetragrammaton YHVH interspaced by the vowels in Adonai. Both names are translated in Bibles as LORD/Lord. Jehovah is also used. Jahovah is more correct than Yahweh. Both are English. Most Jews do not use either of them.
> How can I turn my friends and family from a life of sin? (I really need answers on this one, the thought of my best friends and family being tortured in Hell for all eternity with no rest is one of my biggest worries.)
By prayer according to such scripture as "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and you and your household shall be saved."

Christians are to be a light to the dark world, and so be a light to the family by being a holy example to them.
Do not condemn them or other unbelievers in their presence. Do not preach to them unsolicited.
This may sound a minor thing but it's actually huge.. LOVE them. Because LOVE is God. Let God LOVE them through you. Pray in private every day, with thanksgiving, not begging.. for them to be saved. By faith believe that they are and use present tense vocabulary indicating that they are already saved. That's faith speaking.

Pray for them at the beginning of each day. At noon prayers, and before you go to bed evening prayers. Use salvation scriptures to base your prayers on their salvation. Be in frequent thanksgiving while you confess again the salvation scriptures whenever you think of your family, do that instead of worrying.
And in your prayers believe also that the Lord of the harvest sends laborers (laity or a preacher by any social interaction method) into your family to result in salvation harvest.
In Jesus Christ name,

boxman144
That name looks familiar from my brief searching of the names due to this challenge from you. Am I mistaken, or aren't you one of those people in the above list? (copy/pasted here)
Warningthepeople
Disciple Robert
Hated Apostle Cooper
Collin Michael
Tim Conway
thepostnihilist
 
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thecolorsblend

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So I had some questions regarding some YouTubers? These YouTubers to be exact.

Warningthepeople
Disciple Robert
Hated Apostle Cooper
Collin Michael
Tim Conway
thepostnihilist
Not really familiar with them aside from maybe thepostnihilist.

Can you discern about their teachings?
Sure. If they're Catholic, listen to them. If they're not, ignore them.

> Is the Lord's Name Yeshua, Yeshawa, Yahweh, Yahshua, Yeshua Hamashiach, Rabbi, or Jesus?
I think the alternative pronunciations are kind of silly. And pretentious.

If you must say His name, you may as well say "Jesus" since that's how at least 99% of the western world pronounces it.

As a bow in the direction of respect and reverence tho, I avoid saying His name as much as possible.
 
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The Liturgist

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Not really familiar with them aside from maybe thepostnihilist.

Sure. If they're Catholic, listen to them. If they're not, ignore them.

I think the alternative pronunciations are kind of silly. And pretentious.

If you must say His name, you may as well say "Jesus" since that's how at least 99% of the western world pronounces it.

As a bow in the direction of respect and reverence tho, I avoid saying His name as much as possible.

I myself tend to avoid theological YouTubers but rather use YouTube to view lectures of theologians accomplished elsewhere. I haven’t yet found someone who is specifically on YouTube who I really like, with the exception of LutheranSatire. There is a Roman Catholic Fransiscan friar (Capuchin, I think), who I kind of like, but he is not as doctrinally conservative or traditional as I would prefer; I have a strong preference when it comes to your church for people who are more akin to Pope Benedict XVI (I really wish he hadn’t resigned).

There is an exception to this, however, and that is there are some priests and pastors from various denominations who have uploaded good videos on liturgics. There are also a few interesting people who visit different churches in an ecumenical way, which can be a learning experience.

However, I don’t really do, or want to do, theology, from someone on YouTube, as opposed to, for example, the lecture of a noted theologian like Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, Dr. Scott Hahn or Professor Albert Mohler which happened to be uploaded, but which is not specifically made for YouTube. YouTube is great for watching lectures, but most made-for-YouTube content strikes me as low end entertainment. Good entertainment, but entertainment.
 
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The Liturgist

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Every Christian needs to get familiar with the scriptures and hopefully be attending a church that isn't preaching in error.

It is also equally important to get familiar with Patristics and tradition. The Anglican model of “Scripture, Tradition and Reason” I think is a good one. Because, as I believe Vincent of Lerins said in the fifth century, Scripture is in the Interpretation as much as the Reading.

In other words, if we misinterpret or accept a heterodox interpretation contrary to the ancient faith of the early Christians, even if this interpreration appears to be “Biblical”, we are wrong, because an interpretation is only truly Biblical if it agrees with the views of the early Church Fathers who compiled the Scriptural Canon.

For example, we can assert that Arians were, and Jehovahs Witnesses and Unitarians are, using an Un-Biblical interpretation when they claim the Bible denies that God became Incarnate, because the New Testament canon in its final, definite, 27 book form was compiled by St. Athanasius, who was the fiercest opponent of Arius, and who wrote the book De Incarnatione, which is the definitive doctrinal exposition of Incarnation.
 
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The Liturgist

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Hey all, Jesus guides.


>How do I become completely sin-less?

You cannot reasonably expect to become free of sin in this life. We must repent of our sins and desire sinlessness, but remember that it is Jesus Christ who saves us from sin; we have no power on our own to be delivered from our sin. The belief that we must on our own become free of sin in order to be saved, and the belief that it is possible to do so, is the heresy of Pelagius; even if through the grace of God we stop sinning, we are not sinless, because we were born into sin inherited from the Fall.

>What is your take on 1 John 2:15?

We should avoid wordliness, the craving of posessions, envy, lust, gluttony and so on.

>How do I avoid pleasing the flesh?

>How do I deny myself?

>How can I please God?

I think the answer to these three things is the same: choose God over things in this life. Pray. Give alms to those in need rather than indulging yourself.

>How can I not worry about Hell?

I don’t think this should be pursued; we are “to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.” Even St. Paul worried about losing his faith, that he might fall away. We should live a life of repentence, and to quote the great ascetic St. Anthony, expect temptation until our last breath.

>How can I avoid Hell?

Through repentence and membership in the Body of Christ, in the Church, your faith expressed and made substantial through the life giving sacraments of baptism and communion, which unite you with Christ and your brothers and sisters in the Faith.

>How can I boost my prayer life?

Your best bet is to join a solid church and request guidance on a rule of prayer from your priest, pastor or minister. A consistent rule of prayer is highly desirable, but what it consists of varies from person to person. One of the earliest texts of Christian spiritual practice, the Didache, which is believed to date from the late first or early second century, commends one to say the Lord’s prayer three times a day. There are also short prayers one can easily say like the Jesus Prayer (“Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on Me, a Sinner.”)

>How does the Holy Spirit come to you?

Your faith is the work of the Spirit; without the Spirit no one can come to Christ. When you are baptized and confirmed into the Church liturgically, this traditionally is considered to be the Seal of the Holy Spirit, but the Spirit has already moved you to the point of baptism or confirmation if you are an adult convert.

I personally strongly believe in the baptism of infants, and the incorporation of infants into the church protects them, commends them to God and helps ensure that our children grow into the Church. When I was a boy I believed in Jesus Christ as much as I do now, I loved Him and prayed often and I loved church, and I think having been baptized and having devout parents and grandparents combined to make this happen.

> Is the Lord's Name Yeshua, Yeshawa, Yahweh, Yahshua, Yeshua Hamashiach, Rabbi, or Jesus?

Its not really traditional to refer to our Lord as Rabbi, because He is so much more, and in a broader context, a Rabbi is a teacher, but our Lord not only teaches the truth, but is Truth. Of course the disciples called Him Rabbi on a first person basis. but after His Ascension, in the Acts and Epistles, we see they do not refer to Him as such in the third person.

The other names are the Greco-Latin and some of the Aramaic and Hebraic names and pronunciations of His name. There are others, for example, in West Syriac Aramaic, since about the fifth century, His name is pronounced “Isho.” All of these names are valid since they refer to the same Person, who is our Lord and Savior, the only begotten Son and Incarnate Word of God, Jesus Christ.

I personally feel that in the English language we should use “Jesus Christ” when the need to refer to our Lord by his proper name exists, while respecting the Aramaic and Hebraic forms of His name and also other pronunciations and variants, for example, the Greek Christos, the Spanish pronunciation “Heysus” and so forth. These are all valid because they are all talking about our Lord.

> How can I turn my friends and family from a life of sin? (I really need answers on this one, the thought of my best friends and family being tortured in Hell for all eternity with no rest is one of my biggest worries.)

Love then, pray for them, and pray that God will have mercy on them, and seek to be a positive example. Do not scorn them, criticize them, preach at them or adopt a “holier than thou” attitude because this will merely alienate them. It is especially important to avoid being argumentative, quarrelsome, difficult or disagreeable. If we consider God the Trinity as an eternal union of three divine Persons in perfect love, we should, as Scripture commands us to seek to make ourselves like God as much as possible, since we are made in His image, to try and make our relationships with our friends and family an image of the Trinity.

There was an Eastern Orthodox monastic saint, Seraphim of Sarov, who said “Acquire a peaceful spirit, and thousands around you will be saved.” Part of that peace is not being terrified about what will happen to your loved ones, but rather trusting in and actively believing in God’s mercy and infinite love. You have to have that belief and express it outward.

I seem to have given you guys a lot of questions. My apologies for that, do not feel pressured to respond instantly, and you definitely don't have to answer all of them. Any answers would be deeply appreciated and studied upon.

In Jesus Christ name,

boxman144

Please do not consider anything here authoritative; the most important thing is membership and participation in the Church, in Communion, and also of course being baptized if you have not already been baptized. When we join the Christian Church, we are grafted onto the Body of Christ and in this manner have the hope of eternal life.
 
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fwGod

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It is also equally important to get familiar with Patristics and tradition. The Anglican model of “Scripture, Tradition and Reason” I think is a good one. Because, as I believe Vincent of Lerins said in the fifth century, Scripture is in the Interpretation as much as the Reading.

In other words, if we misinterpret or accept a heterodox interpretation contrary to the ancient faith of the early Christians, even if this interpreration appears to be “Biblical”, we are wrong, because an interpretation is only truly Biblical if it agrees with the views of the early Church Fathers who compiled the Scriptural Canon.

For example, we can assert that Arians were, and Jehovahs Witnesses and Unitarians are, using an Un-Biblical interpretation when they claim the Bible denies that God became Incarnate, because the New Testament canon in its final, definite, 27 book form was compiled by St. Athanasius, who was the fiercest opponent of Arius, and who wrote the book De Incarnatione, which is the definitive doctrinal exposition of Incarnation.
For historical reasons I've read about the church fathers, but they in their day along with Athanasius himself in his day had accepted a doctrine that Jesus nor the first apostles of the NT taught.

That becomes the reason why I don't rely on the church fathers for doctrine but have relied directly on the first apostles of the NT who didn't have anyone but God the Holy Spirit to lead and guide them into all truth.. therefore the apostles could know that those who had a different doctrine in their times were in error. And therefore teach correctly concerning all of God's ways.

So it's the same concerning anyone now, the JW, the Unitarians, and who ever else in these contemporary times when compared to the Bible and are found to be in doctrinal error.

The Bible is the best authority above all else.
 
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bèlla

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boxman144,

The first directive I was given by the Lord is found in 2 Timothy 2:14. “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

The principle was embedded in my spirit. I spent hours practicing the presence of God through prayer, bible study, fasting, and communion. I learned to hear the Holy Spirit and decipher His voice from the evil one before I exposed myself to teachings from individual’s whose walk I could not observe.

Just like the infamous training provided to Fort Knox employees, I learned to distinguish the Original from the counterfeit by immersing myself in His presence. Discernment requires familiarity and a firm grounding in the word. Otherwise, you're subject to deception from lying spirits because you’re unable to tell the difference.

The bible tells us we’ll know the tree by the fruit it bears. I am cautious about the messages I accept and validate. I don’t place every teaching before my eyes or embrace them in my heart. A little leaven goes a long way. Getting rid of it is impossible.

I’ve had an opportunity to hear many pastors and teachers speak in person. I listen for soundness and spiritual kinship. I’m discerning the impact the message is having on my person. More importantly, I’m waiting for the Holy Spirit to chime in.

As such, I’ve never felt a desire to listen to teachings on YouTube. I’ll read a book first. It allows me to chew on their feedback and determine if they’ve validated their perspective with scripture appropriately applied. But I wouldn’t immediately look for sermons until the information has borne fruit.

I enjoy listening to a bible teacher who passed away a few years ago. His ministry has blessed me in times of trouble and joy. He pastored a church in my vicinity for a period that a relative attended. I’ve heard positive feedback about his teachings from pastors outside his denomination. I consider him a reliable source.

Nevertheless, I don’t expose myself to a multitude of voices. I’ll have difficulty pinpointing the origin. That’s important because deception isn’t obvious. It has a striking similarity to the truth. If I want to keep my house in order, I can’t accept every person who mentions God. That’s a recipe for confusion or something worse.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella
 
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For historical reasons I've read about the church fathers, but they in their day along with Athanasius himself in his day had accepted a doctrine that Jesus nor the first apostles of the NT taught.

What doctrine are you talking about?

You do realize that it was Athanasius who opposed Arius, and J/Ws are basically following the teachings of Arius, and Unitarians, a more extreme version thereof? And that it was Athanasius who compiled the current New Testament canon of 27 books...

The creed commonly called “the Athanasian Creed” is not believed by most scholars to have been written by Athanasius, since he spent his career defending the Nicene Creed and the Council of Nicea; the so called Athanasian Creed probably dates from the sixth century. It is better referred to as Quincunque Vult.
 
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Carl Emerson

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boxman144,

The first directive I was given by the Lord is found in 2 Timothy 2:14. “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.”

The principle was embedded in my spirit. I spent hours practicing the presence of God through prayer, bible study, fasting, and communion. I learned to hear the Holy Spirit and decipher His voice from the evil one before I exposed myself to teachings from individual’s whose walk I could not observe.

Just like the infamous training provided to Fort Knox employees, I learned to distinguish the Original from the counterfeit by immersing myself in His presence. Discernment requires familiarity and a firm grounding in the word. Otherwise, you're subject to deception from lying spirits because you’re unable to tell the difference.

The bible tells us we’ll know the tree by the fruit it bears. I am cautious about the messages I accept and validate. I don’t place every teaching before my eyes or embrace them in my heart. A little leaven goes a long way. Getting rid of it is impossible.

I’ve had an opportunity to hear many pastors and teachers speak in person. I listen for soundness and spiritual kinship. I’m discerning the impact the message is having on my person. More importantly, I’m waiting for the Holy Spirit to chime in.

As such, I’ve never felt a desire to listen to teachings on YouTube. I’ll read a book first. It allows me to chew on their feedback and determine if they’ve validated their perspective with scripture appropriately applied. But I wouldn’t immediately look for sermons until the information has borne fruit.

I enjoy listening to a bible teacher who passed away a few years ago. His ministry has blessed me in times of trouble and joy. He pastored a church in my vicinity for a period that a relative attended. I’ve heard positive feedback about his teachings from pastors outside his denomination. I consider him a reliable source.

Nevertheless, I don’t expose myself to a multitude of voices. I’ll have difficulty pinpointing the origin. That’s important because deception isn’t obvious. It has a striking similarity to the truth. If I want to keep my house in order, I can’t accept every person who mentions God. That’s a recipe for confusion or something worse.

Yours in His Service,

~Bella

Totally agree with this thanks...
 
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fwGod

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What doctrine are you talking about?
The context of my post will reveal it, but I am not interested in getting into a debate about it.
You do realize that it was Athanasius who opposed Arius, and J/Ws are basically following the teachings of Arius, and Unitarians, a more extreme version thereof?
Do you realize that a Bible scholar in those days could only become one because of being born to a wealthy and influential family that had connections.

No common Christian could have been able to look at the original Bible text and learn the language and then have intelligence to apologetically defend the Truth against errors.

And do you realize that compared to today's Christian who can read the Bible and apologetically defend the Truth against errors.. Athanasius hasn't achieved anything greater than any of us.
And that it was Athanasius who compiled the current New Testament canon of 27 books...
I will not give him more credit above all the men who wrote the epistles of the New Testament. Nor give him credit above Erasmus or such like him who translated the books of the NT. Nor give him credit above the men who in their day died for having put the books in print. Nor give him credit above those who were threatened with death, and had to go to extreme lengths in order to print the OT and the NT.
The creed commonly called “the Athanasian Creed” is not believed by most scholars to have been written by Athanasius, since he spent his career defending the Nicene Creed and the Council of Nicea; the so called Athanasian Creed probably dates from the sixth century. It is better referred to as Quincunque Vult.
The creeds were necessary because the common people at that time could not read their own Bible for themselves to know what God said, nor could they look up the pertinent Bible quotes that confirm what the creeds say. So all people had only the creeds to quote as their foundation of faith.

But that method of faith was not what God intended. We can know that because when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness by the devil, He didn't quote from the Jewish commentaries because they had kept the writings of the prophets locked away where no one could put their eyes on the words, but He had free access to them, memorized them, and directly quoted the scriptures against the devil's temptations.

God has put great importance on His word, and He gave His word to the people, He moved on the apostles to write their God breathed epistles to the believers, and the people made their own personal copies. So that they could put their eyes on those words and speak them. And from those multiple copies were translated and printed the Bibles that we can all read and quote from for ourselves today.

The Apostles’ Creed With List of Bible Scripture References | Access Jesus
 
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The context of my post will reveal it, but I am not interested in getting into a debate about it


Forgive me, but we are in Traditional Theology, and my desire is simply to assert the views of the traditional churches in accordance with the SOP. Nasty debates are something that should always be avoided in Traditional Theology, but I think there is always room for positive discussion.


Do you realize that a Bible scholar in those days could only become one because of being born to a wealthy and influential family that had connections.


That’s actually inaccurate, because St. Athanasius was born before the Dark Ages, and he was born in the Eastern Empire, in Alexandria, one of the cities in the Roman Empire with a high literacy rate; Alexandria in turn was located in Egypt, which also had a high literacy rate. Indeed much of the oldest Christian literature extant comes from Egypt; this is due to the ready availability of papyrus, and desert conditions to preserve it; given the very broad nature of some of what survived in Egypt, for example, everything ranging from the Gnostic Gospels to early intact codices of the Bible, to routine communications within the church, it is fairly impressive.


As for St. Athanasius, he was not born into a wealthy family at all but was rather invited to study in the church school by his predecessor, St. Alexander of Alexandria, while he was still a young teenager.


No common Christian could have been able to look at the original Bible text and learn the language and then have intelligence to apologetically defend the Truth against errors.


Well, indeed, but not for the reason you think: literacy in the Roman Empire averaged at 10%, and would have been higher in Alexandria. It was not until the Dark Ages when literacy in Western Europe plunged below 1%, but St. Athanasius died more than a hundred years before the collapse of the Western Empire and almost 250 years before the Sack of Rome, when civil government collapsed and Pope Gregory Diologos (Gregory the Great) was left as the only magistrate with any civil authority.


Rather the reason why a common Christian could not look at the “original Bible text” was because it did not yet exist, insofar as the canon of scripture had not been defined.


However, as far as the Scriptures were concerned, a common Christian could read them; there is reason to suppose that before the mass conversions of Christians in the fourth century, literacy among Christians might have been slightly higher than the 10% average, and even after the conversions, literacy might still have been higher than 10% (consider that the word Pagan derives from Paganus, which translates to “country bumpkin”, implying uneducated rural persons who clung to the ancient idolatrous superstitions that had been banished from the cities in the late fourth century under Emperor Theodosius).


And language was not an impediment: the New Testament books were written in Koine Greek, which was the prevailing language in the Eastern Roman Empire and which was the language most widely spoken by Christians; the Old Testament had been translated repeatedly into Koine Greek centuries previously, and the most popular Greek version, known as the Septuagint, is extremely popular among many Christians for preserving or highlighting Christological references missing from the Hebrew and Aramaic texts, of which there were several. At the start of the Fourth Century they were also available in Latin and Syriac suboptimal translations; in the course of the Fourth Century these were succeeded by the Vulgate and Peshitta, which to this day are regarded as extremely useful and valuable by Biblical scholars. The Latin of the Vulgate was the prevalent language in the Western Roman Empire, and Syriac Aramaic was the dominant language in the Eastern Church, in places such as Nisibis, Edessa, Seleucia-Cstesiphon, and elsewhere in Mesopotamia, Persia, and India. And it was also over the course of the fourth century that the Armenian, Georgian, Coptic and Ethiopian translations of the Bible appeared.


As far as apologetically defending the Truth against errors, the majority of literate Christians did that; Arius, in seeking to promote his heresy, composed blasphemous ditties about how Jesus Christ was not God, and taught them to sailors docked in Constantinople, the idea being these songs would spread around the Empire as sea shanties and then catch on among illiterate Christians, because a literate Christian would know that the doctrine of Arius was contrary to, for example, the Gospel of John, and the attempts of Arius and Arian apologists to defend against this charge were feeble.


And do you realize that compared to today's Christian who can read the Bible and apologetically defend the Truth against errors.. Athanasius hasn't achieved anything greater than any of us.


No, I don’t think I can agree with that at all, because if it were not for Athanasius, the Council of Nicea would not have anathematized Arius and proclaimed the Nicene Creed, and there would have been no leading theologian of the Christian Church during the period in the mid 4th century when it was severely persecuted by the Roman Empire in favor of the Arian church.


St. Athanasius enabled a number of other orthodox Christian theologians to bear the heavy cross of opposing Arianism, including St. Hilary of Poitiers, the Cappadocian Fathers (Saints Basil, Gregory the Theologian and Gregory of Nyssa), St. Ephraim the Syrian, who wrote beautiful hymns in the Syriac language that conveyed the correct doctrine and kept Arianism from gaining a foothold among Syriac-speaking Christians, and many others, all of whom did amazing things.


Finally, it is because of St. Athanasius that our Bibles have Revelation, Hebrews, the Johannine Epistles, 2 Peter, Jude, James, and the Pastoral Epistles, while lacking books like the Shepherd of Hermas and 1 Barnabas. If you take a look at the alternatives to the Athanasian canon that were being promoted by some in the fourth century, like Eusebius of Caesarea, you will appreciate the 27 book Athanasian Canon that much more.


Also, it should be noted in the fourth century there were some parishes where extremely heterodox scriptures of Gnostic origin or Gnostic suspicion had crept in; Syriac parishes before the Peshitta tended to use the Diatessaron, a Gospel harmony composed by Tatian, who later led a Gnostic cult, and several Egyptian parishes had books like the Gospel of Peter or the Apocalypse of Peter. St. Serapion of Thmuis, who was a diocesan bishop in the Church of Alexandria, over which St. Athanasius presided as first among equals, is known to have actively removed the Gospel or Apocalypse of Peter from any parishes in his diocese where he found it.
 
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I will not give him more credit above all the men who wrote the epistles of the New Testament.

That’s good, because no one venerates St. Athanasius as an Apostle. He is a Church Father, a Champion of Orthodoxy, indeed, he is often called The Pillar of Orthodoxy, and Apostolic, but not an Apostle. He would be the first to object to being venerated over the likes of St. John the Beloved Disciple or St. Peter or St. Paul, or indeed St. Mark the Evangelist, who was the founder and first bishop of the Church of Alexandria.

Nor give him credit above Erasmus or such like him who translated the books of the NT.

St. Jerome was a contemporary of St. Athanasius and an ally against Arianism. However its also a point of lesser relevance in the fourth century, because St. Athanasius was working with the original Greek scripture, which was understood by the majority of Christians then alive. And those who spoke Latin and Syriac were accomodated even before the Vulgate and the Peshitta.

Athanasius for his part was not a translator; I would liken him more to, for example, Martin Luther, in that he objected to and struggled against an erroneous belief which, due to Imperial influence specifically of the immediate successors of St. Constantine in the Eastern Empire, such as Emperor Constantius I, became for a time dominant. The Empire under Constantius was determined to reject the decision of the Council of Nicea presided over by St. Constantine in 325, so under the influence of Eusebius of Nicomedia and a handful of other Arian bishops who managed to slip under the Nicene radar, a new council was convened, with handpicked delegates, in order to rubber stamp a decision already made by Constantius and Eusebius, that being that Athanasius was to be deposed, replaced (uncanonically) by a new Arian bishop they personally selected, and exiled to Trier, which as you may know is a charming town in Southern Germany which in the mid 4th century represented the limit of Imperial influence, beyond which lived various Frankish, Gothic and Germanic tribes who would eventually rise up against the Western Empire and ultimately sack Rome itself at the turn of the seventh century.* Exiling someone to Trier was the fourth century equivalent of exiling someone to Siberia, only worse, in that the legions stationed there and elsewhere along the German frontier (such as Koblenz) were all that stood between a town like Trier and an invasion of actual Wotan-worshipping barbarians.

Because the people of Alexandria despised the illegitimate bishops sent to replace St. Athanasius, he continued to shepherd his flock from afar; friends of his in the Western Church ensured that his pastoral encyclicals (instructional letters intended to be circulated amongst all the churches of his diocese) reached the churches of his diocese and those of the neighboring dioceses whose bishops collectively comprised the Holy Synod of the Church of Alexandria, as well as other bishops in the region who supported him.** The Paschal Encyclicals St. Athanasius sent were extremely helpful, in that they contained the date Pascha, the Feast of the Resurrection, frequently in English referred to as Easter (just as the Feast of the Nativity is often called Christmas and Pentecost historically was called Whitsunday), was to be celebrated on, according to the Paschalion, or rule for calculating the date of Easter, adopted at the Council of Nicea.

After a change in the direction of the political winds finally allowed St. Athanasius to return home after three decades in exile, he continued to write his Paschal Encyclicals, and his thirty ninth such encyclical contained the first definitive canon for the books of the New Testament. It was this canon which was universally adopted, and is today used and recognized by all Christian churches. There is some debate about what goes into the Old Testament, whether the Greek Septuagint, or translations from Hebrew and Aramaic such as the Vulgate or newer Bibles which use the Judaic Masoretic Text are superior, and also what books belong therein, with most Orthodox favoring the Septuagint (except for the Syriac Orthodox, who favor the somewhat obscure translation of the Old Testament found in the Peshitta), the Roman Catholics favoring the Vulgate and derivatives thereof, and the Anglicans favoring the King James Bible, also known as the Authorized Version, and all three groups, Anglicans, Orthodox and Roman Catholics, favoring the inclusion of the deuterocanonical books (which are in the KJV, just not most recent printed editions of it), and other churches such as the Lutherans, Baptists and Presbyterians generally preferring the 22 book canon of the Jewish Masoretic Text.

I think, when we consider his struggle against Arianism, that the work of St. Athanasius is of equal or greater importance to the work of St. Jerome, Erasmus and other translators, because anyone of sufficient learning can translate the Holy Bible from one language to another, whereas it takes a great leader to oppose a heresy which was made, for a few decades, the official religion of the Roman Empire. Indeed, St. Athanasius is frequently referred to as Athanasius contra Mundum for the whole world seemed to be against him during his exile in Trier. And imagine, if you will, the suffering one would endure: a pastor forcibly cut off from his flock, arrested and exiled in a strange land with very harsh weather compared to his native Egypt, as well as real danger from barbarian raiders who would occasionally cross the border for purposes of plundering.

Nor give him credit above the men who in their day died for having put the books in print. Nor give him credit above those who were threatened with death, and had to go to extreme lengths in order to print the OT and the NT.

In the fourth century, there were no printing presses, so the specific scenario you are discussing is inapplicable. Also I would note that the first and most frequently printed text in the early years of the printing press was the Bible, in various editions. And if an Englishman were discovered in the late 16th century to be in posession of a Douay-Rheims Bible, that would be as dangerous for him, indeed probably much more dangerous, than if a Bavarian or Austrian were found in posession of a Luther Bible. Or indeed, if a Prussian or a resident of Zurich were found in posession of a Luther Bible (the Calvinists became fiercely intolerant of the Lutherans, and so in the late 16th and early 17th century you had the dreadful Wars of Religion between the Roman Catholics, the Lutherans, the Reformed/Calvinist set, and the Radical Reformation groups like the Anabaptists, and equivalent violence in England, namely the Civil War).

Note that all of this happened in Western Christendom. Eastern Christians were too busy being oppressed by Muslims, Hindus, expansionist Western imperial powers like the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and the Kingdom of Sweden, and the decadent and capricious Russian czars to have time to fight violently among themselves, particularly given the relative doctrinal unity that existed in the East at that time (yes, you had the schism between the Oriental Orthodox, the Eastern Orthodox and the Church of the East, but by the 17th century, a common history of shared suffering had for several centuries caused these churches to draw ever more closely together and exist in a state of amity towards one another).

The creeds were necessary because the common people at that time could not read their own Bible for themselves to know what God said, nor could they look up the pertinent Bible quotes that confirm what the creeds say. So all people had only the creeds to quote as their foundation of faith.

The creeds, or at least the Nicene Creed used by Christian Forums as its Statement of Faith, remain critically important in that they provide us with an interpretive canon, a list of correct doctrines based on the traditional understanding of the entire Christian Church since the year 381 Anno Domini.

The Creeds are what set us apart from the Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Oneness Pentecostals, neo-Gnostics, Unitarians and other non-Christian cults that exist on the fringes of, and in many cases masquerade as, Christian churches.

If someone preaches something contrary to the Nicene Creed, he is preaching a different Gospel and is anathema according to St. Paul’s Epistle to the Galatians (chapter 1, verse 8).

But that method of faith was not what God intended. We can know that because when Jesus was tempted in the wilderness by the devil, He didn't quote from the Jewish commentaries because they had kept the writings of the prophets locked away where no one could put their eyes on the words, but He had free access toe them, memorized them, and directly quoted the scriptures against the devil's temptations.

Forgive me, but that makes no sense at all. The Jewish commentaries, or Targumim, were not creeds, and are not creeds, but rather were an Aramaic exposition of the Hebrew and Aramaic texts of the Old Testament. And, at the time, no one had “locked away” the Prophets or any other part of the Old Testament; indeed, if you read the Book of Nehemiah and the books of Esdras, you will read how St. Ezra or Esdras implemented the thrice daily prayers and reading of the Torah and other Old Testament texts. These thrice daily lessons educated the people on the scriptures. Before the time of the Prophet Nehemiah and his ally Ezra the High Priest, before the Babylonian exile, there were no synagogues, and most Jews only heard the reading of the Torah annually at Feast of Tabernacles, when the nation would assemble in booths in Jerusalem to hear the King read certain chapters of Deuteronomy in which the Law was summarized.

The thrice-daily prayer and scripture lessons of Esdras (or Ezra as he is also known) formed the template for the Christian liturgy of the hours or Divine Office, for example, Morning and Evening Prayer in the Anglican Book of Common Prayer, or Matins, Vespers and Compline in the offices of many other liturgical traditions (including the Divine Office of the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod as defined in their very excellent new 2006 hymnal, which @MarkRohfrietsch can attest to).

God has put great importance on His word, and He gave His word to the people,

You are aware that John 1:1-18 is talking about Jesus Christ and not the Bible?

He moved on the apostles to write their God breathed epistles to the believers,

Everyone agrees on this.

and the people made their own personal copies. So that they could put their eyes on those words and speak them. And from those multiple copies were trainslated and printed the Bibles that we can all read and quote from for ourselves today.

Before those Epistles could be included in the Bible, it was necessary to determine which ones were genuine and which ones were not (for example, Laodicians, 1 Barnabas, the Acts of Thomas and the Apocalypse of Peter), and also to establish a rule on what kind of epistles would be considered canonical. Many people wanted certain early Patristic epistles included, such as 1 Clement, and the epistles of St. Ignatius the Martyr, but the decision was taksn to limit the epistles to those written by the Apostles as opposed to those penned even by their immediate successors and disciples (St. Ignatius for example was the fourth Patriarch of Antioch after St. Peter, and St. Clement the third Bishop of Rome; St. Ignatius was also a disciple of St. John the Beloved Disciple). These writings are still extremely important, but it was decided to omit them from the New Testament.

Then, the next task was to determine which allegedly Apostolic epistles were Apostolic and belonged in the New Testament, and this is where there was so much controversy, which was only settled when over the course of the following century, the Christian Church universally adopted the 27 book canon authored by St. Athanasius in his Paschal Encyclical.



Here is the same thing, but with the Nicene Creed:

CF Statement of Faith | Christian Forums


* The Seventh Century was a truly challenging time for Christians everywhere. Old Rome was sacked, and the Islamic Ummayid Caliphate emerged from the desert a few decades later and began conquering much of Eastern Christendom, including Alexandria and the rest of Egypt and the Sudan, Jerusalem, most of Syria, and Mesopotamia. In the years following, Arian Visigoths who were converted to Arianism in the 4th century under the influence of Eusebius of Nicomedia, and most other remaining Arians outside of Italy, converted to Islam, and became fanatical forces; they completely suppressed and destroyed the once-thriving Christian churches in what is now Tunisia, Libya, Numidia and the Sudan. The Ostrogothic rulers of Italy were for a time Arian, and this is reflected in the historic city of Ravenna, which features two ancient baptistries (church buildings purpose built for baptism), one for Christians and one for Arians, both of which are still extant. The Arian baptistry is the only surviving architectural relic of that religion, which together with Manichaenism and Neoplatonism, was one of the three main threats to Christianity before the rise of Islam, after which time the Arians began converting en masse to Islam and Christianity, the Manichaens were ruthlessly persecuted by the Muslims and went into hiding, while Neoplatonism had become extinct by the 6th century.


** Despite centuries of Muslim rule, the Church of Alexandria still lives on; as a result of the Chalcedonian schism there are in fact two of them, but the two churches are close allies, and both currently reigning bishops of Alexandria are named Theodore II, in an amusing coincidence. There is the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria and all Africa, which has maybe 150,000 members in Egypt, mainly in Alexandria, but which also manages most of the missionary churches across the continent, and those serving the Orthodox diaspora in South Africa, so with a few million members in total, and the Coptic Orthodox Church, which has ten million members in Egypt and probably a few million in the diaspora in North America, Europe, Australia and elsewhere.
 
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