When the saints are overcome

grafted branch

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In Revelation 13:7 the beast that rises up out of the sea is given to make war with the saints and overcome them. In Revelation 13:5 he continues for 42 months. In Daniel 7:24-25 a king that arises wears out the saints; and they are given into his hand for a time, times, and dividing of time. Daniel 7:27 the people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom which is everlasting.

Saints <40> sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):-(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Overcome <3528> to subdue (lit. or fig.):-conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.​

I see 4 different possible options for who the saints are and how they are overcome.

1 the saints (believers) are overcome (spiritually).

Romans 8:38-39 declares that nothing is able to separate us from the love of God, which includes principalities, powers, things present, nor things to come. I have to absolutely reject this 1st option because the beast isn’t more powerful than God.​

2 the saints (believers) are overcome (physically).

I believe in election and that our works follow our salvation. Anything that prevents or overcomes my ability to perform physical works has no effect on me being a saint (believer), including death.

2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. And in the last part of Philippians 1:20 so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

So I personally reject this option.

I realize that some people believe that salvation is accomplished through a combination of the work done by Christ and work done by them. I don’t want to debate salvation in this area of the forum and I don’t want to speak for anyone else but I surmise that this option is a viable possibility for these people.​

3 the saints (national Israel) are overcome (spiritually).

Based on verses such as Deuteronomy 14:2, the saints can be considered as national Israel. In John 8:44 the Jews are told they are of their father the devil and they went on to killed their Messiah. Matthew 21:43 the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. National Israel doesn’t inherit the kingdom for ever and ever. But Daniel 7:27 states the kingdom is given to “the people of the saints of the most High” which Romans 9:6 could help clarify. They are not all Israel, which are of Israel, or put another way they are not all saints which are of the saints. So Daniel 7 could be interpreted as the saints (national Israel) are overcome while believing Israel (a group of people of national Israel) is given the kingdom.

I think this is a possibility.​

4 the saints (national Israel) are overcome (physically).

I’m not going to go into detail here but national Israel was certainly overcome physically in 70 A.D. I think this is also a possibility.

I’m sure that some people will consider national Israel as being currently in existence and will have a very different view here.​


I have been studying this and would like to know if anyone sees more than 4 options or have any other thoughts on this.
 

DavidPT

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4 the saints (national Israel) are overcome (physically).

First of all if by this you are meaning the unbelieving Jews that were slaughtered at the time, can't be meaning them according to Revelation 12:7.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


And went to make war with the remnant of her seed

These are undoubtedly meaning the same saints being made war against in Revelation 13. Obviously none of the unbelieving Jews in 70 AD fit this profile---which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So it seems pretty safe to uncheck #4 from the list.



3 the saints (national Israel) are overcome (spiritually).

Based on verses such as Deuteronomy 14:2, the saints can be considered as national Israel. In John 8:44 the Jews are told they are of their father the devil and they went on to killed their Messiah. Matthew 21:43 the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. National Israel doesn’t inherit the kingdom for ever and ever. But Daniel 7:27 states the kingdom is given to “the people of the saints of the most High” which Romans 9:6 could help clarify. They are not all Israel, which are of Israel, or put another way they are not all saints which are of the saints. So Daniel 7 could be interpreted as the saints (national Israel) are overcome while believing Israel (a group of people of national Israel) is given the kingdom.

I think this is a possibility.


As long as you are not connecting this with 70 AD, this is a possibility I guess, but only if the Israel you are meaning here are already keeping the commandments of God, and already have the testimony of Jesus Christ, before the beast initially wages war against them. Revelation 12:17 makes it abundantly clear, that all of these things are already true of the saints meant in Revelation 13, that they already have the testimony of Jesus Christ before the beast initially wages war against them.


If option 3 doesn't work for you either, that leaves you with the first two options, where you indicated you reject the 2nd option.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I’m not going to go into detail here but national Israel was certainly overcome physically in 70 A.D. I think this is also a possibility.​

National Judah was overcome in 70 A.D. The majority of Israel was long gone by then.
 
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tranquil

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In Revelation 13:7 the beast that rises up out of the sea is given to make war with the saints and overcome them. In Revelation 13:5 he continues for 42 months. In Daniel 7:24-25 a king that arises wears out the saints; and they are given into his hand for a time, times, and dividing of time. Daniel 7:27 the people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom which is everlasting.

Saints <40> sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):-(most) holy (one, thing), saint.

Overcome <3528> to subdue (lit. or fig.):-conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.​

I see 4 different possible options for who the saints are and how they are overcome.

1 the saints (believers) are overcome (spiritually).

Romans 8:38-39 declares that nothing is able to separate us from the love of God, which includes principalities, powers, things present, nor things to come. I have to absolutely reject this 1st option because the beast isn’t more powerful than God.​

2 the saints (believers) are overcome (physically).

I believe in election and that our works follow our salvation. Anything that prevents or overcomes my ability to perform physical works has no effect on me being a saint (believer), including death.

2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. And in the last part of Philippians 1:20 so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

So I personally reject this option.

I realize that some people believe that salvation is accomplished through a combination of the work done by Christ and work done by them. I don’t want to debate salvation in this area of the forum and I don’t want to speak for anyone else but I surmise that this option is a viable possibility for these people.​

3 the saints (national Israel) are overcome (spiritually).

Based on verses such as Deuteronomy 14:2, the saints can be considered as national Israel. In John 8:44 the Jews are told they are of their father the devil and they went on to killed their Messiah. Matthew 21:43 the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. National Israel doesn’t inherit the kingdom for ever and ever. But Daniel 7:27 states the kingdom is given to “the people of the saints of the most High” which Romans 9:6 could help clarify. They are not all Israel, which are of Israel, or put another way they are not all saints which are of the saints. So Daniel 7 could be interpreted as the saints (national Israel) are overcome while believing Israel (a group of people of national Israel) is given the kingdom.

I think this is a possibility.​

4 the saints (national Israel) are overcome (physically).

I’m not going to go into detail here but national Israel was certainly overcome physically in 70 A.D. I think this is also a possibility.

I’m sure that some people will consider national Israel as being currently in existence and will have a very different view here.​


I have been studying this and would like to know if anyone sees more than 4 options or have any other thoughts on this.

there is no 'whisked away' rapture. People are 'gathered'. At the start of the Day of the Lord's wrath (6th Seal/ 1st Trumpet).

Christians ('believers') are collectively protected (physically & spiritually). All individual Christians are protected (spiritually), but some are killed (physically).

By Christians rejecting the worship of the abomination, they are ensuring their spiritual safety, but not their individual physical safety.
 
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grafted branch

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As long as you are not connecting this with 70 AD, this is a possibility I guess, but only if the Israel you are meaning here are already keeping the commandments of God, and already have the testimony of Jesus Christ, before the beast initially wages war against them. Revelation 12:17 makes it abundantly clear, that all of these things are already true of the saints meant in Revelation 13, that they already have the testimony of Jesus Christ before the beast initially wages war against them.


If option 3 doesn't work for you either, that leaves you with the first two options, where you indicated you reject the 2nd option.

In Revelation 12:3 John see a dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns. In verse 9 the dragon is called that old serpent, the devil, and Satan. In verse 11 they overcome the dragon by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. Verse 17 says nothing about the dragon overcoming anyone, only that he makes war. 1 Peter 5:8 says that the devil, as a roaring lion, seeks whom he may devour. Just because he is making war doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the same time period.

In Revelation 13:2 the dragon gives his power, seat, and authority to the beast. If the dragon can be overcome then no matter what type of power, seat, or authority he has given to the beast, the beast can also be overcome the same way. It doesn’t seem likely to me that the saints can overcome the dragon/beast while simultaneously the dragon/beast overcomes the saints.

So I don’t think Revelation 12:17 is referring to the saints in Revelation 13:7.
 
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keras

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So I don’t think Revelation 12:17 is referring to the saints in Revelation 13:7.
But it is. Proved by Daniel 11:32-35 and Zechariah 14:1-2....half of the people will be exiled and half must remain....

What people don't seem to be able to see, is how the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal disaster, will depopulate all of the holy land- Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +
It is we Christians who will go to live there; Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26, +

All these facts are plainly stated in the Prophetic Word, but for those who have other ideas about what they want God to do, it cannot be understood. Isaiah 29:9-12.
 
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grafted branch

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But it is. Proved by Daniel 11:32-35 and Zechariah 14:1-2....half of the people will be exiled and half must remain....

What people don't seem to be able to see, is how the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal disaster, will depopulate all of the holy land- Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, +
It is we Christians who will go to live there; Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Romans 9:24-26, +

All these facts are plainly stated in the Prophetic Word, but for those who have other ideas about what they want God to do, it cannot be understood. Isaiah 29:9-12.

Ok, so let me ask you this, who are the saints and how are they overcome?
 
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keras

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Ok, so let me ask you this, who are the saints and how are they overcome?
The 'saints', referred to as the holy people; are every faithful Christian, people from every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, Isaiah 66:18b-21 and John see them in the holy Land in Revelation 7:9.
They, we Christians will live in peace and prosperity in all of the area Promised to Abraham and his descendants, so long ago. We are the inheritors of it, as his children by faith. Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 3:6, +
We will not be a part of the One World Govt, in our own nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

But soon after the Lord has destroyed our attackers from the North; the Gog/Magog attack, Ezekiel 38-39, the leader of the OWG will come to us and negotiate a seven year treaty of peace. Daniel 9:27, but after half of it has passed, he will come back in force and take over Beulah. Zechariah 14:1-2
Those Christians who refused this treaty will be taken to a place of safety on earth, while the rest must remain. As Daniel 11:32-35 and Revelation 12:6-17 tell us.

1260 days later, Jesus will Return, His angels will gather those who remain and those from the place of safety, Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where we will join Jesus in His Millennium reign.
 
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grafted branch

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1260 days later, Jesus will Return, His angels will gather those who remain and those from the place of safety, Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where we will join Jesus in His Millennium reign.

Are you implying that some people on earth during the final years will be able to calculate when Jesus will return? Matthew 24:36 states that no man knows the day or hour.
 
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keras

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Are you implying that some people on earth during the final years will be able to calculate when Jesus will return? Matthew 24:36 states that no man knows the day or hour.
Yes.
When it is understood that there will be a Day when the Lord will vent His vengeance and fiery wrath and then another Day when He will appear in Glory and Return physically to the earth, then it will be known the first Day, the Sixth Seal world wide disaster will come unexpectedly and His Return will be known, as being exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated.

Jesus referred to a similar event as Noah's Flood, as the Day that no one knows. Matthew 24:36-41 Many prophesies say He will not be seen on that terrible Day.
 
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