- Feb 21, 2019
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In Revelation 13:7 the beast that rises up out of the sea is given to make war with the saints and overcome them. In Revelation 13:5 he continues for 42 months. In Daniel 7:24-25 a king that arises wears out the saints; and they are given into his hand for a time, times, and dividing of time. Daniel 7:27 the people of the saints of the most High are given the kingdom which is everlasting.
I see 4 different possible options for who the saints are and how they are overcome.
1 the saints (believers) are overcome (spiritually).
2 the saints (believers) are overcome (physically).
3 the saints (national Israel) are overcome (spiritually).
4 the saints (national Israel) are overcome (physically).
I have been studying this and would like to know if anyone sees more than 4 options or have any other thoughts on this.
Saints <40> sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. consecrated):-(most) holy (one, thing), saint.
Overcome <3528> to subdue (lit. or fig.):-conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.
Overcome <3528> to subdue (lit. or fig.):-conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.
I see 4 different possible options for who the saints are and how they are overcome.
1 the saints (believers) are overcome (spiritually).
Romans 8:38-39 declares that nothing is able to separate us from the love of God, which includes principalities, powers, things present, nor things to come. I have to absolutely reject this 1st option because the beast isn’t more powerful than God.
2 the saints (believers) are overcome (physically).
I believe in election and that our works follow our salvation. Anything that prevents or overcomes my ability to perform physical works has no effect on me being a saint (believer), including death.
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. And in the last part of Philippians 1:20 so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
So I personally reject this option.
I realize that some people believe that salvation is accomplished through a combination of the work done by Christ and work done by them. I don’t want to debate salvation in this area of the forum and I don’t want to speak for anyone else but I surmise that this option is a viable possibility for these people.
2 Corinthians 12:10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. And in the last part of Philippians 1:20 so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
So I personally reject this option.
I realize that some people believe that salvation is accomplished through a combination of the work done by Christ and work done by them. I don’t want to debate salvation in this area of the forum and I don’t want to speak for anyone else but I surmise that this option is a viable possibility for these people.
3 the saints (national Israel) are overcome (spiritually).
Based on verses such as Deuteronomy 14:2, the saints can be considered as national Israel. In John 8:44 the Jews are told they are of their father the devil and they went on to killed their Messiah. Matthew 21:43 the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. National Israel doesn’t inherit the kingdom for ever and ever. But Daniel 7:27 states the kingdom is given to “the people of the saints of the most High” which Romans 9:6 could help clarify. They are not all Israel, which are of Israel, or put another way they are not all saints which are of the saints. So Daniel 7 could be interpreted as the saints (national Israel) are overcome while believing Israel (a group of people of national Israel) is given the kingdom.
I think this is a possibility.
I think this is a possibility.
4 the saints (national Israel) are overcome (physically).
I’m not going to go into detail here but national Israel was certainly overcome physically in 70 A.D. I think this is also a possibility.
I’m sure that some people will consider national Israel as being currently in existence and will have a very different view here.
I’m sure that some people will consider national Israel as being currently in existence and will have a very different view here.
I have been studying this and would like to know if anyone sees more than 4 options or have any other thoughts on this.