Narrow is the gate and few who find it...Calvinistic?

frumanchu · Mar 10, 2020

Romans 8 said:
If God already knows few will find the narrow gate, is it because He created them this way? It says in the bible that we all have the choice to choose Jesus, but God knows His creation I guess. So given that, are we the lucky ones that got an extra dose of desire for kinship with Him? I am not a Calvinist but it seems as though there is some mystery which points towards Calvinistic ideology when one ponders these things. Any thoughts?

This particular verse/passage doesn't have a direct bearing on the doctrines of sovereign election or effectual grace. It's simply a statement of fact based on God's knowledge: relatively few will enter the gate. This is true regardless of your soteriological position (unless you're a universalist) because it doesn't address the question of WHY some believe/enter the gate while others do not. That question is certainly one addressed elsewhere in Scripture, and several have already weighed in on it, but this passage in and of itself doesn't answer that question

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 10, 2020

Romans 8 said:
I should have added that I don't subscribe to Calvinist doctrines, but I respect your beliefs and I can see how some might agree with Calvin on some points.

You can only understand and believe what God allows you to.

bling · Mar 10, 2020

Romans 8 said:
I understand all that. And I believe the bible. But there is some mystery here. Mathew recorded this over 2000 years ago at the time of Jesus, and God foreknew that few would choose Him in comparison to those that would choose rebellion. What makes us different from non-believers that we choose Jesus and seek truth?

As nonbelieving sinners we do not make the "choice" to follow Christ, that would be very noble, honorable, holy, righteous, and worthy of something.
The real "choice" we make is to: be macho, hang in there, be willing to pay the piper and even be willing to take the full punishment we deserve or we can wimp out, give up and surrender to the person we are hating and still hate at our surrendering (like a soldier on the battle field). We might realize we fully deserve to have a torturous death for previous war crimes, but we are willing to humbly "accept", undeserved gifts from our enemy (God). That "willingness to accept" is all God needs to shower us with gifts.

paul1149 · Mar 10, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
I thought that they were not able to make a fully informed choice perhaps, but if that's true, how can that possibly be considered a true, "free will choice"? For instance, why would anyone choose to drink a glass of cyanide if they could just as easily choose to drink a chocolate milkshake instead (unless they were not mentally sound, or they were suicidal, or they were not fully informed about the choices that they had/could make, etc.)?

There is also the business of environment, like the environment a person is raised in. Whose kids do you believe stood a better chance of becoming Christians, the children of Billy Graham, or the children of the Osama Bin Laden?

Romans 8 said:
Yes great point. There are about 2 billion Muslims in the world, and just over 2 billion Christians. How many of each would we project to accept Jesus? It seems an unfair playing field. How do we filter these kinds of odds?

This is afield from the OP, strictly taken, but it's important to have a larger coherent understanding of salvation.

This is the way I see these questions. All come under the rubric of Abraham's rhetorical statement, "Will not the Judge of the whole Earth do what is right?", along with the hermeneutic that God has placed our moral sense in us, and it is a reflection of His character, and that His truths are not difficult to attain to spiritually once we get our preconceptions out of the way. He says the Word is near us, in our mouth and heart.

Rom. 5.13 tells us that though sin is in the world, sin is not imputed unless there is law. Prior to that, ch. 3 I believe, he had established a law of conscience, whereby those without Law were judged by their own sense of right and wrong.

Where does that leave the one who never heard of Christ? He will be judged by the light available to him, and how he responded to it. That will be synecdoche for accepting Christ, because the Lord regards not the outward appearance, but the motivations of the heart. He sees that given knowledge of Christ, that person would accept him. It is in this way Paul tells us that the Gospel was preached to Abraham. IOW, all who come to God must come through Christ, but they might not know His name in this life. Billy Graham also has said as much.

We are incapable of judging the secret motivations of the heart, so there is no sense trying to figure this out to the Nth degree. But I have an intuitive sense of God's grace and love for all men, so that all who respond in faith to the Light they are given will be accepted by Him. It seems unthinkable that it would be any other way. So it doesn't have to be a "fully-informed" choice based on full Gospel information. Who determines what that means anyway?

In Jesus we have the ultimate expression of God's love and grace. We are blessed beyond measure to know and understand the Gospel more than most ever have. But that also brings a responsibility to us to live the life and spread the Word, so that others can be equally blessed.

Everyone gets a shot at salvation. Everyone has "eternity in their hearts", because we are made in the image of God. And though they might not know it, Jesus Christ is the Light that lights every man coming into the world. How we respond to that light determines our fate. No one is predetermined to not have a chance. The Parable of the Sower tells the tale of why not everyone responds correctly.

Anyway, that's how I see it. Be blessed.

bling · Mar 10, 2020

St_Worm2 said:
Hello again Romans 8, I used to think it all boiled down to my boyish good looks. Now, I'm not so sure

Returning now to a more serious kind of reply , I believe your question is the one that haunted me the most as I thought about salvation from my former Arminian/Free Will POV. I mean, there were/are SO many of my friends, family members and associates who were/are FAR more deserving than I could ever hope to be, and that in so many ways, but I said yes to living out eternity in blissful joy with God, while others (who were better people than me in almost every way imaginable), said yes to eternal darkness, to eternal torment and pain, to a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth that is forever void of the love of God, and that for no good reason that I could see!!

So I began to wonder back then (as you seem to be doing now) .. WHY Why did 'I' choose the bliss and joy of Heaven, while 'they' (who COULD have chosen the very same thing that I did, according to my Arminian/free will soteriology anyway) did not

I thought that they were not able to make a fully informed choice perhaps, but if that's true, how can that possibly be considered a true, "free will choice"? For instance, why would anyone choose to drink a glass of cyanide if they could just as easily choose to drink a chocolate milkshake instead (unless they were not mentally sound, or they were suicidal, or they were not fully informed about the choices that they had/could make, etc.)?

There is also the business of environment, like the environment a person is raised in. Whose kids do you believe stood a better chance of becoming Christians, the children of Billy Graham, or the children of the Osama Bin Laden?

I could go on and one, but I'll stop now Perhaps one of our free will believers (like @paul1149, who knew better than to post in this thread .. but then freely chose to do so anyway .. of course, so did I) will help us by telling us what they believe about such things, IOW, why some choose to believe while others do not (especially if God has made choosing to believe in Him equally possible for ~all~)?

Thanks!

--David

David, You have to go back to the very first choice nonbelieving sinners make which comes before choosing to follow Christ which only comes after God has showered you with unbelievable wonderful gifts and thus it is a response out of gratitude.

As nonbelieving sinners we do not make the "choice" to follow Christ, that would be very noble, honorable, holy, righteous, and worthy of something.

The choice is not heaven or hell which the nonbelieving sinner would not even believe in either.

The real "choice" which all mature adults initially make is to: be macho, hang in there, be willing to pay the piper and even be willing to take the full punishment we deserve or we can wimp out, give up and surrender to the person we are hating (and still hating at our surrendering, like a soldier on the battle field surrendering to his enemy is not joining his enemy). We might realize we fully deserve to have a torturous death for previous war crimes we committed, but we are just willing to humbly "accept", undeserved gifts from our enemy (God). That "willingness to accept" is all God needs to shower us with gifts.

God Loves everyone and so He is doing all He can to help willing individuals fulfill our earthly objective.

It is a good question to ask: “Whose kids do you believe stood a better chance of becoming Christians, the children of Billy Graham, or the children of the Osama Bin Laden?”

I am studying right now one on one with a college student who is a son of a communist party leader, in China, who never knew or met a Christian until this last fall. He has developed a tremendous faith already and at Christmas break talked to his family, about Christ (which could get him killed). His father is actually sympathetic and almost receptive to the idea, but for this communist to become a Christian would be certain death.

I know Billy Graham’s son went through some questionable times and you probably heard about preacher’s sons, so how many kids become devout believers?

Is there an advantage to actually seeing the huge contrast between committed believers and the noncommitted, without grouping the USA as being a “Christian Nation”?

BBAS 64 · Mar 12, 2020

Romans 8 said:
Matthew 7:13–14, Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

If God already knows few will find the narrow gate, is it because He created them this way? It says in the bible that we all have the choice to choose Jesus, but God knows His creation I guess. So given that, are we the lucky ones that got an extra dose of desire for kinship with Him? I am not a Calvinist but it seems as though there is some mystery which points towards Calvinistic ideology when one ponders these things. Any thoughts?

Good Day, Romans 8

You see it here as well:

1 thess 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

In him,

Bill

shakewell · Mar 18, 2020

Romans 8 said:
So given that, are we the lucky ones that got an extra dose of desire for kinship with Him?

Unsaved people don't desire kinship with God. They're at enmity with Him and His wrath is upon them - all of them, equally.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Christ Jesus gave himself a ransom for all.
There are no "lucky ones".

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 18, 2020

theoneandonlypencil said:
God is omnipresent--He can see who will choose what, and base His decisions according to what He knows we, with our free will, shall do.

This never happens at anytime.

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 18, 2020

frumanchu said:
This particular verse/passage doesn't have a direct bearing on the doctrines of sovereign election or effectual grace. It's simply a statement of fact based on God's knowledge: relatively few will enter the gate. This is true regardless of your soteriological position (unless you're a universalist) because it doesn't address the question of WHY some believe/enter the gate while others do not. That question is certainly one addressed elsewhere in Scripture, and several have already weighed in on it, but this passage in and of itself doesn't answer that question

This is a wrong view of biblical foreknowledge.
It is not mere prescience. It is God setting His saving love on a multitude of sinners

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 18, 2020

frumanchu said:
This particular verse/passage doesn't have a direct bearing on the doctrines of sovereign election or effectual grace. It's simply a statement of fact based on God's knowledge: relatively few will enter the gate. This is true regardless of your soteriological position (unless you're a universalist) because it doesn't address the question of WHY some believe/enter the gate while others do not. That question is certainly one addressed elsewhere in Scripture, and several have already weighed in on it, but this passage in and of itself doesn't answer that question

Roman's 8:29-30 settles the issue as it speaks DC directly to God's work in salvation.

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 18, 2020

Romans 8 said:
So given that, are we the lucky ones that got an extra dose of desire for kinship with Him?

Some who think they are "lucky ones" (p.s. God hates it when His people call on luck),
on Judgment Day are told otherwise. Right up to the day they die, they believe they are "lucky".
But they're not.

Romans 8 said:
If God already knows few will find the narrow gate, is it because He created them this way?

As MANY as turn to Him, who seek Him and keep seeking Him, will find Him.
Jesus says Jesus will NOT turn anyone away who (in truth) comes to Jesus.

So , with Perfect Justice, Perfect Judgment, and Perfect Mercy, a few are saved as God says.

Most choose not to do what they must . Others believe a lie, and won't honestly seek God.

Romans 8 said:
I am not a Calvinist but it seems as though there is some mystery which points towards Calvinistic ideology when one ponders these things. Any thoughts?

Too many teachings and practices in error, reported on this forum , by Calvinists , to be the right way for most, or to tell people to live or believe that way..

The "mystery" if you think points that way, is from a different spirit, or at least must be tested and proven first, before believing it.

So , no, just stick with Scripture.

Not calvinism nor armenianism, ( common -isms which seem like all other -isms to have errors),

seems best to me and some others.

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 18, 2020

paul1149 said:
This is afield from the OP, strictly taken, but it's important to have a larger coherent understanding of salvation.

This is the way I see these questions. All come under the rubric of Abraham's rhetorical statement, "Will not the Judge of the whole Earth do what is right?", along with the hermeneutic that God has placed our moral sense in us, and it is a reflection of His character, and that His truths are not difficult to attain to spiritually once we get our preconceptions out of the way. He says the Word is near us, in our mouth and heart.

Rom. 5.13 tells us that though sin is in the world, sin is not imputed unless there is law. Prior to that, ch. 3 I believe, he had established a law of conscience, whereby those without Law were judged by their own sense of right and wrong.

Where does that leave the one who never heard of Christ? He will be judged by the light available to him, and how he responded to it. That will be synecdoche for accepting Christ, because the Lord regards not the outward appearance, but the motivations of the heart. He sees that given knowledge of Christ, that person would accept him. It is in this way Paul tells us that the Gospel was preached to Abraham. IOW, all who come to God must come through Christ, but they might not know His name in this life. Billy Graham also has said as much.

We are incapable of judging the secret motivations of the heart, so there is no sense trying to figure this out to the Nth degree. But I have an intuitive sense of God's grace and love for all men, so that all who respond in faith to the Light they are given will be accepted by Him. It seems unthinkable that it would be any other way. So it doesn't have to be a "fully-informed" choice based on full Gospel information. Who determines what that means anyway?

In Jesus we have the ultimate expression of God's love and grace. We are blessed beyond measure to know and understand the Gospel more than most ever have. But that also brings a responsibility to us to live the life and spread the Word, so that others can be equally blessed.

Everyone gets a shot at salvation. Everyone has "eternity in their hearts", because we are made in the image of God. And though they might not know it, Jesus Christ is the Light that lights every man coming into the world. How we respond to that light determines our fate. No one is predetermined to not have a chance. The Parable of the Sower tells the tale of why not everyone responds correctly.

Anyway, that's how I see it. Be blessed.

These ideas do not appear in scripture.
Everyone does not get a shot at salvation.

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 18, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Some who think they are "lucky ones" (p.s. God hates it when His people call on luck),
on Judgment Day are told otherwise. Right up to the day they die, they believe they are "lucky".
But they're not.

As MANY as turn to Him, who seek Him and keep seeking Him, will find Him.
Jesus says Jesus will NOT turn anyone away who (in truth) comes to Jesus.

So , with Perfect Justice, Perfect Judgment, and Perfect Mercy, a few are saved as God says.

Most choose not to do what they must . Others believe a lie, and won't honestly seek God.

Too many teachings and practices in error, reported on this forum , by Calvinists , to be the right way for most, or to tell people to live or believe that way..

The "mystery" if you think points that way, is from a different spirit, or at least must be tested and proven first, before believing it.

So , no, just stick with Scripture.

Not calvinism nor armenianism, ( common -isms which seem like all other -isms to have errors),

seems best to me and some others.

Could you give examples of these errors.

shakewell · Mar 19, 2020

ICONO'CLAST said:
Could you give examples of these errors.

Calvinism doesn't have errors; Calvinism IS an error.

ICONO'CLAST · Mar 19, 2020

shakewell said:
Calvinism doesn't have errors; Calvinism IS an error.

Is it?
Can you help me understand what the problem is with it?
List 4 or 5 reasons you suggest this.

Ronald · Mar 19, 2020

Romans 8 said:
Matthew 7:13–14, Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

If God already knows few will find the narrow gate, is it because He created them this way? It says in the bible that we all have the choice to choose Jesus, but God knows His creation I guess. So given that, are we the lucky ones that got an extra dose of desire for kinship with Him? I am not a Calvinist but it seems as though there is some mystery which points towards Calvinistic ideology when one ponders these things. Any thoughts?

He knows the future. The Book Of Life has everyone's name in it before the foundation of the world.
Christ is the gate, He is just saying, in one of many ways, come to Me. "No one comes to the Father but by Me." " If you believe in Me, hou wil have eternal life."
Calvin tried to frame salvation in an acronym that simply lacks the full knowledge of God. This is like putting God in a box, structuring a set of rules and principals to create a definitive theology.
For anyone to be absolutely sure that Calvinism is true, you would have to be omniscient. Scripture gives us enough to live by, enough to know Him, but God thinks and acts beyond our ability to comprehend. HOW he does what He does is not really clear.
"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known." 1 Cor. 13:12

We know in part and so TULIP ain't the whole.

bcbsr · Mar 23, 2020

Romans 8 said:
Matthew 7:13–14, Jesus said, "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

If God already knows few will find the narrow gate, is it because He created them this way? It says in the bible that we all have the choice to choose Jesus, but God knows His creation I guess. So given that, are we the lucky ones that got an extra dose of desire for kinship with Him? I am not a Calvinist but it seems as though there is some mystery which points towards Calvinistic ideology when one ponders these things. Any thoughts?

I agree that the rhetoric the Bible typically uses is inconsistent with Calvinistic determinism. You take Acts 16:30,31 ""Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" Whereas in Calvinism a person cannot do anything to change his fate, which God had already predetermined even before the person was born. Practically speaking in Calvinism faith doesn't saved, but rather simply reveals a person's elect status that he had all along.

But the main problem I have with Calvinism is their double predestination idea, an idea with even Lutherans don't agree with. Namely the idea that God elects people to eternal life or eternal damnation not based on foreknowledge of their life - their behavior or deeds. Major problem with that is that it's saying the God condemns people prior to them doing anything wrong, and without reference to any future actions on their part. Essentially God condemns the innocent, which is kind of the definition of injustice. Calvinists try to get around this implication by God is not subject to our definitions of justice, or that people are just puppets or inanimate objects, equating the situation to one making an inanimate object and then throwing it into the fire - in which case justice does not come into play. Thus Jonathan Edwards, a Calvinist, in his "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" equate people with spiders that one would dangle over a flame. All of which is inconsistent with the rhetoric the Bible uses regarding matters of justice in the case of humans. People are not puppets, we're not in animate objects, and we're not spiders.

ToBeLoved · Mar 24, 2020

Romans 8 said:
If God already knows few will find the narrow gate, is it because He created them this way? It says in the bible that we all have the choice to choose Jesus, but God knows His creation I guess.

I’ve never struggled with the “few will find it” verse.

Jesus said He wants ALL to come to him, so I start from that.

if I had 5 children and say I only talked with one, that to me would be few, because in my heart I love and desire relationship with ALL of them.

I find the verse sad. Like how God’s desire is all of His children, but that few desire a relationship with Him

Narrow is the gate and few who find it...Calvinistic?

God's justice does not demand second chances

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