IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

Self-willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) wantonly add the phrase "choose to believe" to Word of God, such as John 3:16, where the phrase does not exist; furthermore, self-willed persons subtract from the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" where the Word of God declares God's exclusive non-transferred intrinsic attribute of choosing men unto salvation. God gets exclusive glory in the salvation of man. Self-willed people daringly blaspheme against the Word of God by claiming to choose the Word of God, but the Word of God says "by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Kermos said:

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

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Not this again. Enjoy your contradictions.

Der Alter said:

This is the big fail in all heterodox religious groups. They think that with a Strong's that makes them a Greek expert. Look at a list of definitions in Strong's eeny, meeny, miney, moe pick one you like. That ain't the way it is done. The correct meaning of a word is determined by case, tense, voice, mood etc.

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The passage means that to come to God, one needs to be humble. Children are humble in a way that they haven't lived long enough to become prideful. They have less doubts, fears, arrogance or even achievements to boast of that grow as we get older. They are less worldly and attached to things. People grow callous to God and others over time and so this is the idea.
Scholars say it is easier for young people to receive Christ than a grumpy old man set in his ways. Still God can humble the most prideful and stubborn - sometimes it takes tragic life experiences or losses to get someone's attention.

Population Segments and The Phrase "The Whole World"

Christ came to seek and to save the lost (Luke 19:10) saying that He came "to give His life a ransom for many" (Matthew 20:28, He uses the word "many" not "all") and the Christ is 100% successful for the Christ says "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:27-28) and the Christ says "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out" (John 6:37) and Lord Jesus Christ Himself is Truth (John 14:6). The Apostle John penned "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for [those of] the whole world" (1 John 2:2), yet the Apostle John certainly is not indicating the Christ failed. By extension of the self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim that "the whole world" here in 1 John 2:2 means everyone that ever existed at any time results in the self willed person's tacit conclusion that Christ failed. In defiant contradiction of Lord Jesus, self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim that Christ lost some of the lost for which He died; on the contrary, the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16 ), so to be in accord with the Word of God Himself, the Apostle John has "the whole world" here meaning all of God's chosen persons yet to be saved.

Of critical import, there is more about "the whole world" in the book of 1 John.

The devil is a liar and a murderer (John 8:44). The Apostle John penned "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19). Behold, "the whole world" cannot include us believers here in 1 John 5:19 since we are in Christ (Romans 12:5), but self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim "the whole world" means absolutely everyone in all time thus putting such self willed persons in the evil one. Notice, "the whole world" here in 1 John 5:19 are all the unsaved which includes people destined for "the outer darkness" where "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 22:13) as well as the chosen of God yet to be saved (Matthew 22:14, Ephesians 2:1-5).

See, "the whole world" in 1 John 5:19 is not the same as "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2, so "world" is utilized to convey different meanings in scripture depending on context. Both of these instances of "the whole world" are in the Book of First John, so this demonstrates that one person can use "world" in different ways.

Look, the word "choose" nor the concept of man "choosing" God is in neither 1 John 2:2 nor 1 John 5:19 - not explicitly nor implicitly. Self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) contort the meaning of "the whole world" out of it's context in 1 John 2:2, so such persons have a huge problem in 1 John 5:19 - and such persons have a gargantuan problem with adding to scripture which carries an eternal death sentence because such persons lie (practice deceit) about scripture (Revelation 21:27).

Self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) do not want Christ to reign over them for they say salvation from the wrath of God for their sins hangs on their choice of Jesus instead of salvation from the wrath of God for sin hung on the cross. Here are more words of explanation from Lord Jesus "But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence" (Luke 19:27).

Ronald said:

The passage means that to come to God, one needs to be humble. Children are humble in a way that they haven't li ed lo g enough to become prideful. They have less doubts, fears, arrogance or even achievements to boast of that grow as we get older. They are less worldly and attached to things. People grow callous to God and others over time and so this is the idea.
Scholars say it is easier for young people to receive Christ than a grumpy old man set in his ways. Still God can humble the most prideful and stubborn - sometimes it takes tragic life experiences or losses to get someone's attention.

Click to expand...

How does this address my post which you quoted.

renniks said:

Not this again. Enjoy your contradictions.

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Self-willed people (2 Peter 2:9-10) such as yourself contradict and deny the Word of God (John 1:14) Who declares His intrinsic attribute of exclusively choosing man unto salvation with the Word "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) when you self willed people daringly (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim to choose the Word of God unto your own salvation thus putting self willed persons in the unrighteous category (2 Peter 2:9-10).

An Exposition Of When Lord Jesus Says "You"

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17, see also John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14).

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.

LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

Thus, belief in Jesus through the Apostle John's words includes the Lord Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 which are all part of the "through" John's "word" (John 17:20) which Jesus referred to in His prayer.

Self willed persons do not want the Lord Jesus to reign over them by claiming to do the opposite of that which Lord Jesus says with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and Lord Jesus provided explanation with "these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence" (Luke 19:27).

Der Alter said:

How does this address my post which you quoted.
"This is the big fail in all heterodox religious groups. They think that with a Strong's that makes them a Greek expert. Look at a list of definitions in Strong's eeny, meeny, miney, moe pick one you like. That ain't the way it is done. The correct meaning of a word is determined by case, tense, voice, mood etc."

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1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,
3 and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 18:1-4)

The words "you are converted" comes from the Greek word base of strepho which means turn, convert, and change, but in Matthew 18:3 the actual verb word is straphete which is aorist subjunctive passive in the 2nd person plural which causes the word to mean "you are turned" or "you are converted" or "your are changed".

The word straphete is PASSIVE meaning that it is happening to the hearer. God does it to the hearer!

This means that Matthew 18:3 can be rendered with any of these:

"unless you are turned and become like children" (Matthew 18:3)

"unless you are changed and become like children" (Matthew 18:3)

"unless you are converted and become like children" (Matthew 18:3)

Each and every instance represents the person being acted upon by God.

Behold, Lord Jesus says "unless you are converted and become like children" which is a direct reference to "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3, see also John 3:4-8).

He even says "converted" which equates to "born again"/"born from above". He refers to "the kingdom" in both Matthew 18:3 and John 3:3.

Taking scripture with scripture, Lord Jesus indicates that one must be born again in Matthew 18:3.

After one is born again by God's choosing - for a person certainly cannot cause himself or herself to be born again - then such a one has fruit of the Spirit which includes being humble (Matthew 18:4) - humility being fruit - for Lord Jesus says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

Cross-referencing scripture, Lord Jesus indicates that God is required for people to bear much fruit - even being humble!

None of Matthew 18:1-4 indicates "choose" for the word is absent implicitly and explicitly, so you are adding to scripture AGAIN.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Kermos said:

Self-willed people (2 Peter 2:9-10) such as yourself contradict and deny the Word of God

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Can't do that if I have no free will. The contradictions start with you very first sentence.

Der Alter said:

How does this address my post which you quoted.

"This is the big fail in all heterodox religious groups. They think that with a Strong's that makes them a Greek expert. Look at a list of definitions in Strong's eeny, meeny, miney, moe pick one you like. That ain't the way it is done. The correct meaning of a word is determined by case, tense, voice, mood etc."​

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Hermenuetics involves all of what you said including the original Koine Greek ( Strongs is one source, Greek Interliniary another, who the passage is addressed to, context, coinciding historical events, time it was written, etc. Most people like myself do not have a minimum Masters degree in Theology, that provides at least an introduction to and skimming the surface of practicing exegeting scriptures, taken a couple years of Greek and Hebrew as well. A PhD in Hermenuetics can do this. The rest of us rely on the various translations that have already been provided. The work has been done. 70 scholars spending 5 years to translate a Bible is usually good enough for me. But I use about 7 different translations if I want a more complete understanding.
Bottom line is - ALL SCRIPTURE IS SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED. So, you can have a PhD in theology, Greek and Hebrew, but if you do not have the Holy Spirit, you may be able to translate, but the deep rich understanding you won't get.

renniks said:

Can't do that if I have no free will. The contradictions start with you very first sentence.

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The Apostle Paul wrote of "free will" as illusory in Philemon 1:14 (post in this thread), so your first sentence is irrelevant; therefore, your second sentence is void.

Self-willed people (2 Peter 2:9-10) such as yourself contradict and deny the Word of God (John 1:14) Who declares His intrinsic attribute of exclusively choosing man unto salvation with the Word "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) when you self willed people daringly (2 Peter 2:9-10) claim to choose the Word of God unto your own salvation thus putting self willed persons in the unrighteous category (2 Peter 2:9-10).

An Exposition Of When Lord Jesus Says "You"

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17, see also John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14).

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.

LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

Thus, belief in Jesus through the Apostle John's words includes the Lord Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 which are all part of the "through" John's "word" (John 17:20) which Jesus referred to in His prayer.

Self willed persons do not want the Lord Jesus to reign over them by claiming to do the opposite of that which Lord Jesus says with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and Lord Jesus provided explanation with "these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence" (Luke 19:27).

Kermos said:

Self-willed people (2 Peter 2:9-10) such as yourself contradict and deny the Word of God

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I can't do that if I have no free will. Must be God doing it.

Kermos said:

Self willed persons do not want the Lord Jesus to reign over them by claiming to do the opposite of that which Lord Jesus says

Click to expand...

No one can do anything of thier own will if free will isn't real, so this sentence is nonsense.

renniks said:

I can't do that if I have no free will. Must be God doing it.

Click to expand...

renniks said:

No one can do anything of thier own will if free will isn't real, so this sentence is nonsense.

Click to expand...

Free will is a figment of the self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) imagination. Since NO New Testament passage conveys the existence of free will, except the Apostle Paul wrote of "free will" as illusory in Philemon 1:14 (post in this thread), then there is no scriptural support for free will in the New Testament.

The first nature of men is enmity against God with all men under judgement by default for it is written "just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Romans 5:12), and only God alone can intervene to save men from the wrath of God (post in this thread). This means that you can, renniks, in your self will, explained in the next paragraph.

Since the Apostle Peter wrote "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment" "daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they blaspheme glories" (2 Peter 2:9-10), then there is scriptural support for self will in the New Testament.

Your responses exhibit your confusion.

An Exposition Of When Lord Jesus Says "You"

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17, see also John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14).

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.

LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

Thus, belief in Jesus through the Apostle John's words includes the Lord Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 which are all part of the "through" John's "word" (John 17:20) which Jesus referred to in His prayer.

Self willed persons do not want the Lord Jesus to reign over them by claiming to do the opposite of that which Lord Jesus says with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and Lord Jesus provided explanation with "these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence" (Luke 19:27).

Kermos said:

Free will is a figment of the self willed persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) imagination

Click to expand...

Oops,another contradiction.. can't have self-will with out some degree of free will.

renniks said:

Oops,another contradiction.. can't have self-will with out some degree of free will.

Click to expand...

More renniks imaginary rules setup that go right along with the Apostle Paul indicating that free will is illusory in Philemon 1:14 (post in this thread). Your imaginary free will is an illusion created in your self will for self glory.

Free will is only references as illusory in the New Testament (free will is mentioned ONLY in Philemon 1:14 in the NT). There is NO NT scripture that states man has free will much less free will to choose toward God unto salvation.

Self will is referenced in a concrete manner by the Apostle Peter when he wrote "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment" "daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they blaspheme Glory" (2 Peter 2:9-10). Jesus is the King of Glory! You try to steal glory!

The Prophet Isaiah recorded the word of God "I will not give My glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8), yet self will people in their imagination perform a deed of choice toward God unto salvation thus the self willed people call God a liar because God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

You, renniks, wrote "can't have self-will with out some degree of free will", yet the above clearly establishes that you are out of accord with scripture.

The Apostle John wrote of the holy city new Jerusalem with "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation (21:27). Notice that John included self willed people who practice lying - such as the self willed person's persistent deception of calling the King of Glory a liar when the King says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

The Apostle Paul included thieves - including self willed people that try to steal glory - when he wrote "Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor [the] covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

May God open your eyes, renniks, to the exclusive reign of King Jesus over man including man's salvation and sanctification.

An Exposition Of When Lord Jesus Says "You"

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17, see also John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14).

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.

LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

Thus, belief in Jesus through the Apostle John's words includes the Lord Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 which are all part of the "through" John's "word" (John 17:20) which Jesus referred to in His prayer.

Self willed persons do not want the Lord Jesus to reign over them by claiming to do the opposite of that which Lord Jesus says with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and Lord Jesus provided explanation with "these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence" (Luke 19:27).

Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Kermos said:

Your imaginary free will is an illusion created in your self will for self glory.

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Self will and Free Will are the same. If I have no free will, how hard is it to understand that no thought I have is my own?

renniks said:

Self will and Free Will are the same. If I have no free will, how hard is it to understand that no thought I have is my own?

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renniks, you persist in imaginary rules by writing "Self will and Free Will are the same".

You, renniks, write in direct oppostion to Apostolic teaching that self will and free will are different.

The Apostle Paul indicated that free will is illusory in Philemon 1:14 (post in this thread). Your imaginary free will is an illusion created in your self will for self glory. Free will is only referenced as illusory in the New Testament (free will is mentioned ONLY in Philemon 1:14 in the NT). There is NO NT scripture that states man has free will much less free will to choose toward God unto salvation.

The Apostle Peter references self will in a concrete manner when he wrote "the Lord knows how" "to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment" "daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they blaspheme Glory" (2 Peter 2:9-10). Jesus is the King of Glory! You try to steal glory! The Prophet Isaiah recorded the word of God "I will not give My glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8), yet self will people in their imagination perform a deed of choice toward God unto salvation thus the self willed people call God a liar because God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

The carnal nature is the default nature is enmity against God (post in this thread), and self willed persons in the carnal nature unrigheously despise authority while they blaspheme Glory (2 Peter 2:9-10) of which Glory the King of Glory says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). You do not understand the carnal nature of self willed person.

Behold, renniks, the above clearly establishes that you are out of accord with scripture.

The Apostle John wrote of the holy city new Jerusalem with "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation (21:27). Notice that John included self willed people who practice lying - such as the self willed person's persistent deception of calling the King of Glory a liar when the King says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

The Apostle Paul included thieves - including self willed people that try to steal glory - when he wrote "Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor [the] covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

May God open your eyes, renniks, to the exclusive reign of King Jesus over man including man's salvation and sanctification.

An Exposition Of When Lord Jesus Says "You"

LORD JESUS' PROMISE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT AND FULFILLING

In John chapter 14, John chapter 15, and John chapter 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17, see also John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14).

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "you" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.

LORD JESUS' PRAYER FOR US BELIEVERS

Part of the prayer of Lord Jesus during the supper is thus "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20).

Jesus said "through their word" (John 17:20) which means that "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) are words that the Apostle John recorded. John recorded the Word of God, and the Word of God says "for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and He preceded these words with "I do not ask on behalf of these alone" (John 17:20), so the Word of God during the supper is not just for the people in the room, but the Word of God during the supper is for all believers in all time.

Thus, belief in Jesus through the Apostle John's words includes the Lord Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 which are all part of the "through" John's "word" (John 17:20) which Jesus referred to in His prayer.

Self willed persons do not want the Lord Jesus to reign over them by claiming to do the opposite of that which Lord Jesus says with "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), and Lord Jesus provided explanation with "these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence" (Luke 19:27).

Der Alter said:

Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”
Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
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14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

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Der Alter, in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you try to add to scripture AGAIN!

There is no mention of "choose".

There is no mention of "free will".

God says "they did not listen" (Jeremiah 13:11) which expresses an action - not a choice - an action. God says they acted against God not towards God in verse 11. Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

It appears that you have not read where Lord Jesus says "Nor do [people] put new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wineskins burst, and the wine pours out and the wineskins are ruined; but they put new wine into fresh wineskins, and both are preserved" (Matthew 9:17).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Kermos said:

Your imaginary free will is an illusion created in your self will for self glory. Free will is only referenced as illusory in the New Testament (free will is mentioned ONLY in Philemon 1:14 in the NT). There is NO NT scripture that states man has free will much less free will to choose toward God unto salvation.

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Context. That verse does not claim free will is illusionary. Good grief.

Philemon 1:14, ESV: "but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord."

He's saying that he wants them to help from thier own free will and not feel like they have to help. Not hard to understand.

So, your verse confirms Free Will exists.