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What? Where did you get that from? Please answer my questions in post 40. You are trying hard it seems not to answer.
Paul Enforces Animal Husbandry Law
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Paul Enforces Animal Husbandry Law
- Thread starter HARK!
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Paul Enforces Animal Husbandry Law
Paul is using the law abstractly and only a few verses later (v20) he is states he's not under the law. So we have Paul explicitly identifying as not being under the law while using the law for instruction in NT living. How is this reconciled? Paul is not issuing commandments from the law. The commandment is clear, don't muzzle your ox while threshing and Paul doesn't look to the surface commandment but rather reveals what it's really about.
Arguably the depth of the law, not it's surface, is the more important value and the meanings we should be looking for today then. If we use this logic then we should be reading the law and searching for the deeper meanings and not be trapped on its surface words.
For example in Peter's dream this also reveals to us the deeper parts of the dietary law. What the dream shows us is the law was never about food, but rather is about people. Just as Paul tells us the law is not about the ox, it is about something deeper. Or even stealing and murdering are not about wooden laws they are about loving on a deeper level and the Sabbath too points to a rest greater than what we can observe 1 day a week.
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Godwin's law can be applied to anything so it's not really that impacting of a law. The longer a discussion carries on the greater the possibility for any subject to get played (not just Nazis) like for example clowns. If we keep this discussion going forever, the possibly of comparison using clowns will increase. Godwin wanted to stop Nazi references being used as Mic drops and his law is sort of a Mic drop to the Mic drop... but in reality it doesn't mean anything at all.
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Yet in verse 21 he says he is not free from God’s law, and he also took a vow to show he lived in obedience to God’s law Acts 21:20-24, and according to Paul, it doesn’t matter who you are, what matters is keeping God’s commandments(his law) 1 Corinthians 7:19, which echos King Solomon who taught that the duty of humans is to fear God and obey his commandments(his law) Ecclesiastes 12:13
the law of God/Moses teaches spiritual things through physical realities. The commandments of not muzzling an ox means that a person is worthy of receiving what they work for. Why would you hold an ox back from what you’re making him work for? How much more should you give to a fellow human being what they’re working for? That doesn’t mean the commandment doesn’t stand about not muzzling an ox. God uses physical things to teach us about spiritual things. If you had an ox today, and put him to work, but kept him from eating what he was working for, you would be sinning against the law. The physical and spiritual are equally applicable. Christianity and other religions have a tendency to want to cancel physical, and spiritualize everything, in an effort to justify disobedience to God’s law.
Living under the law, is about your relationship to it. Another way to view it could be living against the law. Paul doesn’t mean it in the way of “you’re not under the law, so you don’t have to obey it”. That would actually be putting someone under the law by telling them not to keep it.
The laws on clean and unclean animals do teach us about spiritual things, but that doesn’t negate that we are still to abstain from eating unclean animals. Us having a fuller understanding doesn’t abolish the foundation. It’s like Passover - Passover can be observed in its fullness now that Messiah has revealed the fullness of it.
The laws on clean and unclean ARE about food, but God uses his laws on clean and unclean animals to teach deeper things. Again, the physical is not cancelled because of a fuller understanding of the spiritual.
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Paul clearly contrasts "the law" and "God's law" and if we are going to have a discussion about this we can't just sweep the former under a rug. Did you keep on reading that part about God's law? "though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law" So Paul here seems to define God's law under a definition of Christ's law and it would be fair then to say "the law" is contrasted with "Christ's law". Now we need to define these things and establish the difference. The law is Torah and this shouldn't be controversial. So if the law is Torah "Christ's law" must be unique in some way to what is understood as the Torah. Paul says he is not under Torah but is under Christ's law. Reading the pauline epistles you're going to find this theme come up so let's not pretend we don't know what it is.
well Paul says we are not under the law so it would seem it is not "equally applicable"
If Peter's dream reveals to us the deeper meaning of the law this means the law was never about food and was always about the release of God's spirit. As the Jews followed the law they echoed the meaning of the law as God's spirit was released for them, they just did so in ignorance. Peter was shown however that God's spirit is now released to all, so in the same way the requirement of the law is echoed by its deeper meanings, since God's spirit was release so was the dietary restrictions set in place. What you suggest is echoing the meaning of the law as it was in the old covenant rather than echoing the law as is in the new covenant even though you recognize and value the meaning that Peter's dream points to. This would seem counter productive. I would say you can't have it both ways, either Peter's dream reveals to us the meaning of the law and its requirements are echoed with the same release of the spirit or Peter's dream is not about a deeper meaning of the laws and they are kept separate.
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1 Timothy 1:8 says,
"But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;"
(1 Timothy 1:8).
(1 Timothy 1:8).
However, 1 Timothy 1:8 does not mean we can be justified by the Law of Moses.
"And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses." (Acts of the Apostles 13:39).
Neither does 1 Timothy 1:8 mean the whole of the Old Law is still in effect, either.
How so?
Well, here are a list of verses
(showing us the Old Law is no more as a package deal or covenant):
"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).
”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).
"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).
20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).
“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).
"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).
9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).
16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).
”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).
27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).
50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).
8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).
“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).
7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).
“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).
The way we can fulfill the Old Law is by putting into action with a New Covenant teaching:”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).
"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).
20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).
“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).
"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).
9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).
16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).
”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).
27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).
50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).
8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).
“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).
“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).
28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).
7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).
“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).
"For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Galatians 5:14).
The way we can fulfill the righteousness of the Law (i.e. that righteous aspect of the Old Law, i.e. the Moral Law - Romans 2:14, Romans 13:8-10) is by walking after the Spirit.
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4).
In other words, just because certain aspects of the Old Law may still be used lawfully does not mean the whole of the Old Law is still in effect.
I hope this helps, and may YHWH bless you.
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What Bible are you using? Romans 13 only has 14 verses in every Bible I can find.
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I do. I did before this verse ever sunk in. The Ruach led me to that. Apparently Paul did too. Apparently Yahshua did too, when he said that if you look at a married woman with lust; you have already committed adultery; that if you get angry with someone that you have already committed murder.
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Godwin's law is also not on the law books of any local law of the land that i know of, so its quite irrelevant.
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I believe we are primarily under New Covenant Law, and not the Old Covenant Law. Meaning we follow primarily those commands that come from Jesus and His followers. We do not look to the Old Law as a means to obey God (because it is a contract that is no longer in effect as a whole), but that does not mean there are not good things within the Old Law that can be used (or obeyed) lawfully.
Also, see my signature at the bottom of each of my posts.
Also, see my signature at the bottom of each of my posts.
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Do you agree that the Torah, also called the Torah of Moses, is also the Torah of God?
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Is it the Gentile Church's Torah though? That is the question. Acts 15 might be helpful in answering it.
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There is one Torah for God’s people
There no such thing as “the Gentiles church”.
There is only 1 church/assembly, and its name is Israel.
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I agree there is only one Church. I specified Gentile to highlight that these are gentiles not Jews, i then referenced Acts 15 which discusses gentiles and the Torah.
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Acts 15 actually proves that Gentiles who converted to the faith of Messiah & God were Sabbath keepers, and were expected to be obedient to the law of Moses/God.
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We are not trying to broadly agree if Torah is God law because Paul already narrows its context to Christ's law so let's stick to the context Paul establishes. I could ask is the Torah of Moses the same as the Torah of Christ. It seems clear in 1 Cor 9 there is God/Christ Law and there is Law and these two are different. I would suggest that when Paul uses the term law he means the torah of Moses so this would mean when he uses God's/Christ law he is referring to something else. This would mean in context the torah of Moses is not the torah of God
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