Regeneration before or after saving faith

JIMINZ said:

I knew it, but Quickended in verse 1 is not in the Greek, it was added.

KJV
Eph. 2:1
And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

The Greek says
Eph.2:1
And you (ye) being dead to-the side-falls (offenses) and the misses (sins)

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Yes the KJV is full of added phrases not in the original Greek texts. It’s basically embedded with the personal interpretations of the translators.

friend of said:

What about Luke 12:32

It states that God will draw all men to himself

And yet, not all who are drawn come to saving faith. Because they choose otherwise.

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Revelation 2:20-22 is a perfect example of what you are saying.

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Contenders Edge said:

But we must be willing to allow God to transform us and do that work in us, and as far as a scriptural teaching goes, have you not read where it is written that those who come to repentance are made new in Christ? (2 Cor. 5:17) If that is not scriptural evidence that saving faith and regeneration go hand in hand, then I don't know what is.

As far as post 47 goes, God does call all to repentance. (2 Pet. 3:9) Jesus did not just die for some and not others. He died for all people (Jn. 3:16) But not all come to repentance because they who refuse to repent would rather be in the darkness than the light and choose to live in sin rather than in holiness. It is a choice that everyone makes for themselves. And while it is always God that leads us into following His commands, it is we who must choose to follow His lead. He does not produce mindless slaves.

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Good day, Contenders

Seeing that your misuse of the text in 2 Cor or has been fully addressed here is this thread. Nobody said that they do not go hand in hand.

In His death he died as an offering for many,

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Yes he calls all to repentance, not sure how 2 Peter is related:

But just remember repentance is granted, if God does not grant it there can be no repentance.

2 Tim 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

And though the cited passage from Ezekiel pertains to the nation of Israel, it is also applicable to anyone who comes to repentance: Their heart is softened towards their Maker. They receive the good news of Salvation in Christ and undergo a spiritual transformation. The Spirit that now resides inside the repentant person is a Spirit that was not present in them before.

Eventually, the nation of Israel will also undergo this foretold transformation as well when they come to receive the Messiah they had once rejected.

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Their heart is softened.. the text does not say that.

EZE 36 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

God does for a purpose he gives, he takes, he puts, he removes, he causes
He does and we are directly effected by the things he does. He is the sufficient singular primary cause for his designed purposes and He can not fail to bring those things about.

In Him,

Bill

Hammster said:

Of course he was transformed. But what Acts doesn’t show was when he was regenerated.

Oftentimes the narratives tell us what happened that we can see, but doesn’t give a lot of details of the behind the scenes stuff. Sometimes we get that, like


A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
— Acts 16:14

We see why she responded.

Or here


A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
— Acts 16:14

where we see why they believed. But there’s no such commentary concerning Paul’s conversion.

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Yet his personal encounter with Christ was undeniably enough to convince him to receive the Gospel. But is regeneration defined or not defined as the transformation of the inward person?

Hammster said:

Context. He said a little more than that.

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Yes. He used the word 'antitype' - αντιτυπος - which means the impression left by the stamp. He parallels Noah's ark with baptism where 8 souls were saved through water because outside the water literally cleansed the world of sin while they stayed dry. The image - or the impression left by the stamp - is water baptism where the person, rather than staying dry, is immersed in water and his sins are washed away. Like the earth, he is refreshed and begins anew having been reborn just as the earth was after the flood.

Was Peter wrong to say that baptism now saves us? What about the context would change the meaning to something other than seems obvious.

BBAS 64 said:

But just remember repentance is granted, if God does not grant it there can be no repentance.

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That is a misuse of the Jerusalem church's statement that the Gentiles had been granted "repentance to life." They were not saying that Gentiles couldn't repent until God "let" them. It's saying that they were granted the same opportunity as the Jews to receive and obey the gospel, specifically to repent and be baptized into the same faith.

Repentance is a command. How absurd would it be to command people something they weren't capable of doing?

Hammster said:

No, it doesn’t. It answers the question about whether we should sin since grace increases where sin occurs. There’s already the assumption that we are saved. We are dead to sin. We are no longer in Adam, but in Christ.

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As many of us that have been baptized into Christ are in Christ.

Hammster said:

I agree that he was regenerated with his encounter with Christ. However, nothing in the text states or implies that faith preceded his regeneration. You have to read that into the text.

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If he was regenerated when Christ struck him blind, why did Ananias command him to be baptized?

The same man who was converted in this instance later preached that baptism washed away sins. He obviously did not see himself as being regenerated prior to his baptism, so why would it be appropriate to teach something different than what he taught about his own experience?

Hammster said:

Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you⁠—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience⁠—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
— 1 Peter 3:21

The baptism he speaks of isn’t water baptism. He’s clear on that.

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Really? So baptism, which he clearly states is us being saved "through water" just like the 8 souls in the ark, is referring to something other than water?

Do you realize the absurdity of your statement? The word baptism in Greek, when not accompanied by a modifier, means immersion in water. Peter is most definitely, as proved by the context, speaking of water baptism.

Al Touthentop said:

That is a misuse of the Jerusalem church's statement that the Gentiles had been granted "repentance to life." They were not saying that Gentiles couldn't repent until God "let" them. It's saying that they were granted the same opportunity as the Jews to receive and obey the gospel, specifically to repent and be baptized into the same faith.

Repentance is a command. How absurd would it be to command people something they weren't capable of doing?

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Good Day, Al

Not sure what the connection is to the Jerusalem council or how you assume Paul was misusing it.. I never said "let" just to assist in your understanding.

Read it very slow... words have meanings and those meanings convey truth:

correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,

Indeed absurd to you in your subjective thinking, and that does not surprise me. I will ensure you in the objective reality that does not effect in any way the clear meaning and understanding of the text as written by Paul.

In Him,

Bill

BBAS 64 said:

Good day, Contenders

Seeing that your misuse of the text in 2 Cor or has been fully addressed here is this thread. Nobody said that they do not go hand in hand.

In His death he died as an offering for many,

Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

Yes he calls all to repentance, not sure how 2 Peter is related:

But just remember repentance is granted, if God does not grant it there can be no repentance.

2 Tim 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

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Good day Bill,


There is nothing to misuse in that passage. You are not a new man apart from Christ. You are only made new in Him and that requires regeneration and if there is no regeneration, there is no transformation from the old to the new and 2 Peter was cited to show that God calls all men to repentance but that man must choose whether to repent of his sins or not.

BBAS 64 said:

Their heart is softened.. the text does not say that.

EZE 36 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

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Does not a heart of stone represent a hardened heart? Does not a heart of flesh represent a softened heart? If the heart is not softened, then how does the heart of stone become a heart of flesh?

BBAS 64 said:

od does for a purpose he gives, he takes, he puts, he removes, he causes
He does and we are directly effected by the things he does. He is the sufficient singular primary cause for his designed purposes and He can not fail to bring those things about.

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But it is up to us to decide whether or not to be a part of the purpose and plans He has in store.

Hammster said:

Baptism is a command. We should be baptized.

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But it doesn't do anything according to you. Why would Jesus command us to do something that had no real purpose?

And please provide scripture that states baptism washes away sin. I’d be interested in the context.

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Romans 6, Acts 2: 38, Mark 1:1-4, Luke 3: 1-6, Acts 22:16

16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’

Paul recounted his own conversion and let us know exactly what he was told about it. It was for the purpose of washing away sins.

Do not come back with the old εις canard. No Greek scholar of any weight would suggest it is to be translated "because of." It is never translated causally in the New Testament the 1677 times it appears, or in the extant papyrii. It is properly translated in Acts 2:38 as "for" or to reach the point of. Baptism is FOR the remission of sins. It's commanded because it is how we are born again from sinful being into a pure, new person in Christ, just as all of the apostles and disciples were taught by Jesus himself. Why were they so consistent in teaching this? Because it was important to Jesus that they do. It was the last thing he told them before ascending to the father.