Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?
- Thread starter Basil the Great
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I have been active at this forum since '98-'99. I think it is now on its 3d or 4th owner. I was a a mod for about 5 years but the railroad took me out of town.
.....I realized early on that hard core adherents in all heterodox religious groups are almost impossible to reach. Thus my goal has been keep countering the false narratives with the truth and perhaps I might reach people on the fringe thinking about joining or leaving such groups.
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If Jesus knew that everyone was going to be saved righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death why would He teach "eternal punishment" to many people who believed in a place of eternal fiery punishment which they called both Hades and Gehenna?
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Looks like you lost a bracket on your quote. I replaced it. Hopefully in the right spot.
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Well eternal punishment is quite clear in Holy Scriptures, even to the early church.
I guess they did not have "root word fallacy" schools of thought back then.
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Dear Saint: I am so thankful you escaped from work to join us, I am retiring to a more relaxing climate of peace (lol)
Much thanks for fixing my lost bracket. I would rather lose a bracket than think for a nano-second our Abba has dire plans for vast dimensions of the broken wrecks of Adam1 !
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Lazarus Short
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The Beautiful Heresy
The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church
The First 500 Years
Universalism, the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years
The Earliest Creeds 5
II Early Christianity a Cheerful Religion 17
III Origin of Endless Punishment 36
IV Doctrines of Mitigation and Reserve 53
V Two Kindred Topics 61
VI The Apostles' Immediate Successors 70
VII The Gnostic Sects
The Beautiful Heresy- Christian Universalism: The Early Church
The History of Universalism (Part Two) | Christian Universalist Association
https://www.amazon.com/Universalism-Prevailing-Doctrine-Christian-Hundred/dp/1631741195
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Lazarus Short
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Your first clue is in the first chapter of Genesis, where God created the heavens and the earth. Hell is not mentioned, just as "heaven and earth" is mentioned over and over, book after book, with "hell" left out except for a few badly-rendered verses.
I laugh at the "root word fallacy" argument. The word and the concept both clearly come from pagan sources.
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I have observed that the Holy Spirit seems to reveal different and contradicting things, including different definitions of the same words, to the various heterodox groups.
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It worked for me. If people are not convicted of sin, then they cannot be saved. Everyone is born dead spiritually. That means that they are not able to enter heaven. I do not talk about hell much. I do tell people that they are rejected by God.
A great deal of human behaviour is motivated by fear of consequences. I'd still be driving everywhere flat out if it were not for enforced speed limits. Now if an individual is properly saved and born again, that person is alive to God. If they are are properly taught, fear ceases to be the motivation of their life. That can take a long time, depending on the individual.
Lord Jesus made it clear that there is both reward for those who seek the kingdom and punishment for those who do not. How many people do you know would be happy to let a murdering rapist off the hook? How many people do you know would let someone bring a dead person to a party? Why should God overlook sin and let dead people into heaven? The word contradicts you and so does simple logic.
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That was not entirely my quote. This was my quote:
"Scripture plainly teaches only one Hell, one Lake of Fire, and eternal torment for the wicked and unbelieving. I do not see how anyone can honestly claim that scripture teaches any differently on a subject so basic."
Somehow it got merged with Fine Linen's. I will have to see what I can do to fix it so as to eliminate any confusion over who said what.
Just traced the glitch back to a response post by Fine Linen. I think what happened was the section of my post that he quoted was a cut and paste job, but it appears that what he quoted was bracketed properly. If that was an effort on your part to correct the bad formatting, I appreciate you noticing and making the effort to correct it.
There might have been a technical error on his part that may have caused our two quotes to merge. It happens sometimes.
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Logical fallacy, "argument from silence." The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Where does the Bibles say angels were created?
Your last sentence is heterodox rubbish as I have shown repeatedly from Jewish sources.
Before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting punishment and they called it both Gehenna/Ge Hinnom and Hades/sheol.
Jesus never taught anything which contradicted this belief.
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I believe why most hold to ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is because they do not understand that the word "forever" does not always mean "forever" in the Bible.
Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.
Should the English words "for ever" (or "forever") be read literally meaning an endless state?
Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. What I am I talking about? Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.
In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?
• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.
• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).
• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).
• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).
• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).
• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).
• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):
• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).
• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.
• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).
• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).
• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).
• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).
• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).
• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.
• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”
Anyways, in conclusion, I have discovered that the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place).
Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php
Side Note:
As for creeds:
Well, I am Bible alone. I am this way because of God and His holy Word. I believe a person needs to be born of water (i.e. By Scripture) in the fact that when they sought forgiveness with Jesus they have come to also know that there is one perfect Word of God alone that they can trust alone (and nothing else) by the hearing of Scripture and the Spirit. If a creed happens to agree with the Bible that is great, but they are not my guidance in how to follow the Lord. The Bible alone and the Anointing (Guidance by the Spirit) is my sole authority in understanding His Word and not a creed. Creeds come from men (Who were far from perfect). There is no mention in Scripture about creeds being on equal authority as Scripture.
Take Revelation 14:11 as an example.
Should the English words "for ever" (or "forever") be read literally meaning an endless state?
Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you. What I am I talking about? Well, the Bible tells us that the phrase "smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever" is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 which says that the smoke of Edom went up forever and ever. Yet is the city of Edom burning today? No, of course not. So we then realize that this phrase is speaking metaphorically.
In other words,, the word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?
• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to Israel “forever”.
• The Law is to be a statute “forever” (Exodus 12:24; Exodus 27:21; Exodus 28:43).
• Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 1:7) until -- God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ezekiel 16:53-55).
• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).
• The sin of Samaria "is incurable" (Micah 1:9) until -- Lord "will restore ... the fortunes of Samaria." (Ezekiel 16:53).
• Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zephaniah 2:9, Jeremiah 25:27 until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jeremiah 49:6).
• An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever" until -- the tenth generation (Deuteronomy 23:3):
• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they "were shattered" Habakkuk 3:6).
• The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15), that is-until-it was superceded by the Melchizedek Priesthood (Hebrews 7:14-18).
• Many translations of the Bible inform us that God would dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:13), until -- the Temple was destroyed.
• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of Sabbath rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9).
• The Law of Moses was to be an "everlasting covenant" (Leviticus 24:8) yet we read in the New Covenant the first was "done away" and "abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:11-13), and God "made the first old" (Hebrews 8:13).
• The fire for Israel's sin offering (of a ram without blemish) is never to be put out. It shall be a "perpetual" until -- Christ, the Lamb of God, dies for our sins.
Hell. We now have a better covenant established on better promises (Leviticus 6:12-13, Hebrews 8:6-13).
• God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever" until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6-10; Jonah 1:17); Egypt and Elam will "rise no more" (Jeremiah 25:27) until -- the Lord will "restore the fortunes of Egypt" (Ezekiel 29:14) and "restore the fortunes of Elam" (Jeremiah 49:39).
• "Moab is destroyed" (Jeremiah 48:4, Jeremiah 48:42) until--the Lord "will restore the fortunes of Moab" (Jeremiah 48:47).
• Israel's judgment lasts "forever" until -- the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isaiah 32:13-15).
• The King James Bible, as well as many others, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6), until -- his death.
• “Eternal” (Greek aionia, αιονια) is sometimes used of a limited (not endless) period of time. But the most common use is illustrated in 2 Corinthians 4:18 where it is contrasted with “temporal” and in Philemon 1:15 where it is contrasted with “for a while.”
Anyways, in conclusion, I have discovered that the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place).
Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php
Side Note:
As for creeds:
Well, I am Bible alone. I am this way because of God and His holy Word. I believe a person needs to be born of water (i.e. By Scripture) in the fact that when they sought forgiveness with Jesus they have come to also know that there is one perfect Word of God alone that they can trust alone (and nothing else) by the hearing of Scripture and the Spirit. If a creed happens to agree with the Bible that is great, but they are not my guidance in how to follow the Lord. The Bible alone and the Anointing (Guidance by the Spirit) is my sole authority in understanding His Word and not a creed. Creeds come from men (Who were far from perfect). There is no mention in Scripture about creeds being on equal authority as Scripture.
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yeshuaslavejeff
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COOL!
Have you found any forum (don't post its name or url though - keep it private) that does not permit the false gospel adherents to join and keep posting ?
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yeshuaslavejeff
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Correct, the devil made that one up, quite successfully for those who are not abiding in Jesus - the ones Jesus calls "anathema!" ....
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
So how do you understand or explain the false teachers bringing the false gospel (anathema!) .. ?
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