Atheists debates - is it worth it?

Mitty

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It's a waste of time. Tried it once on here but since they dismiss personal experience and dismiss the spiritual I was left with nothing. They kept asking for 'evidence', but that is like a 3-dimensional man trying to explain to a 2-dimensional man the world he sees.
But what "personal experience" and have you ever seen a god or spoken with one like Abraham did (Gen 18)?
 
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coffee4u

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But what "personal experience" and have you ever seen a god or spoken with one like Abraham did (Gen 18)?

Like I said, it is like a 3D man trying to explain to a 2D man his world. It is very hard for me to tell you how I experience God, but yes I have, but not like Abraham.
You cannot see God
Exodus 33:20
But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

God does not normally come to people as he did in times of old. After he sent the Holy Spirit this became extremely rare. You won't see a burning bush or a hand writing on the wall that you can videotape and put on Youtube. Most times God is like a whisper or trying to catch steam. People though crave something concrete and showy but God warns us that only the demons will answer.

The same goes for angels.
Abraham saw God angel because this was how God dealt with his people at that time, now you won't see them like that.
Hebrews 13:2
Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for by so doing some people have shown hospitality to angels without knowing it.

Angels won't show up and do a song and dance but that doesn't mean that people have not had experiences with them. My father fully believes an angel saved his life years ago and I believe him from what he told us. He was literally pushed back from going with a man who offered him a room for the night, no wind and he wasn't drunk. He said it happened 3 times before he got the hint that he wasn't to go with this guy.

I think the very fact that people look for religion or spiritual truth, that things like occult shops and horoscopes flourish even when God expressly forbids such things is one evidence for the existence of God.
 
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Mitty

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Like I said, it is like a 3D man trying to explain to a 2D man his world. It is very hard for me to tell you how I experience God, but yes I have, but not like Abraham.
You cannot see God
Exodus 33:20
But He said, "You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!"

God does not normally come to people as he did in times of old. After he sent the Holy Spirit this became extremely rare. You won't see a burning bush or a hand writing on the wall that you can videotape and put on Youtube. Most times God is like a whisper or trying to catch steam. People though crave something concrete and showy but God warns us that only the demons will answer.

The same goes for angels.
Abraham saw God angel because this was how God dealt with his people at that time, now you won't see them like that.
But Gen 20 clearly says that Abraham had a face to face chat with a god when they shared a meal together, and doesn't say that it was just an angel. Genesis 18:1 Then the LORD appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre in the heat of the day, while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent.

And Gen 32:22-31 says that Jacob had a wrestling match with a god and touched him up in his thigh hollow.

So why don't gods come to people as they did in times of old, or are those stories just imaginative fantasies?

And how did you experience a god?

And why do I need to believe that gods exist anyway, since I've never seen a god or heard one or felt one or smelt one?
 
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coffee4u

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But Gen 20 clearly says that Abraham had a face to face chat with a god when they shared a meal together, and doesn't say that it was just an angel. Genesis 18:1 Then the LORD appeared to Abraham by the oaks of Mamre in the heat of the day, while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent.

And Gen 32:22-31 says that Jacob had a wrestling match with a god and touched him up in his thigh hollow.

So why don't gods come to people as they did in times of old, or are those stories just imaginative fantasies?

And how did you experience a god?

It was either the angel of the Lord/Jesus, but it wasn't God the Father.

That was before Jesus came as a man and was given the name of 'Jesus'. Jesus coming and dying changed how God (when I say 'God' I mean God the father) dealt with us. Instead of laws and prophets and leaders like Moses or doing anything dramatic, God calls for faith and sent the Holy Spirit to help believers. That was the Old Covenant and now we are under the New Covenant.

Matthew 27:51
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split.
God ripped the temple curtain veil to show the end of one era and the bringing in of the new.


Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Now we have to believe that he is and seek him rather than God coming down to us. He did that fully as Jesus once and for all.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
He promised instead to send the Holy Spirit to help believers.


Since I don't feel like having my experiences labelled as imaginative fantasies I won't go into specifics except to say that God is the still quiet voice, God is the guiding hand that you can look back on, God is the sense of peace.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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You will soon realize that these debates are a waste of time, and become circular arguments that go nowhere. God doesn't need to convince anyone, and neither do you. The old testament is a combination of history, the law, and prophecy. The new testament is the prophecies full filled through Jesus Christ as you are obviously aware. I'm not a bible literalist for a number of reason that I will not share on a forum like this. One must study the bible from a spiritual perspective and look for the spiritual messages given. If someone rejects your testimony, wipe the dust off your feet and move on.

I have presented the existence of God based on Near death studies that to me have overwhelming circumstantial evidence that to me is impossible to dispute, however you will find skeptics that reject the evidence with no viable arguments to support their opinions.
Now if you just get a kick out of useless debates, have a ball.

Been there, done that! (You see, I've already been running up a tab here on CF for quite some time so none of this is 'new' for me. But thanks for your concern, bro! ;))
 
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2PhiloVoid

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By the way, Pascal was interesting, just don't attempt to use the Pascal argument, it is a very weak one.

Actually, I think Pascal is a bit more robust than what people give him credit for and bother to understand about his thinking, mainly because they don't REALLY read his work. No, more typically, they just pick up a little tidbit about his Wager and think they've got him all figured out. Of course, they often do this, too, with many other things in life, like the bible for instance.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Mitty

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It was either the angel of the Lord/Jesus, but it wasn't God the Father.
Wrong. Where does Gen 18 say that it was just an angel, given that Gen 18 clearly says that it was "the LORD" and doesn't say that it was "an angel of the LORD"? Or did you just make that up?

That was before Jesus came as a man and was given the name of 'Jesus'. Jesus coming and dying changed how God (when I say 'God' I mean God the father) dealt with us. Instead of laws and prophets and leaders like Moses or doing anything dramatic, God calls for faith and sent the Holy Spirit to help believers. That was the Old Covenant and now we are under the New Covenant.

Matthew 27:51
At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split.
God ripped the temple curtain veil to show the end of one era and the bringing in of the new.


Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Now we have to believe that he is and seek him rather than God coming down to us. He did that fully as Jesus once and for all.

John 16:13
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
He promised instead to send the Holy Spirit to help believers.


Since I don't feel like having my experiences labelled as imaginative fantasies I won't go into specifics except to say that God is the still quiet voice, God is the guiding hand that you can look back on, God is the sense of peace.
Just imaginative words in a book.
And why would a real god just change it's mind willy nilly anyway?
Which is why biblical morality is obviously just man-made and is subjective and not objective including the ten commandments etc, given that it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to have a sexual relationship with his sister Sarah and commit adultery with Hagar, or for Abraham to kill his son as a blood sacrifice, or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel since the ten commandments etc were just man made and didn't apply to them.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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2PhiloVoid

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That is not an answer. Can god convince me he exists and convince me he is moral? If he exists and moral he should be able to do that no problem.

This is an absurd question, Clizby! And YES, it is the beginning of an answer, if you wish to engage. Half the time, things aren't answers here simply because YOU don't wish to engage the issues, one of which is that a godless ethics is essentially a somewhat derelict ethics, cut off from any real ontological grounding other than making grandiose references to things like the work of Frans de Waal.

Moreover, if you've already firmly decided that God is immoral because you ASSUME YOUR OWN ETHICAL POSITION TRUE and you think it gives you "proper" ethical evaluations, then there's NOTHING God will be able to do to convince you otherwise since the actions are done and you refuse to listen to any further challenges to your own ethical conceptions. It essentially boils down to it all being a matter of YOUR willingness to listen and consider, not of God's Omnipotence.

So, you better look at that link I provided you and read the article I've posted there. I don't think you realize the tenuous nature of your own ethics. And I for one am NOT going to let it slide, not here, not from you, not from anyone! I will take ANYONE to task over this, and I will do so until my last dying breath! o_O
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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This is an absurd question, Clizby! And YES, it is the beginning of an answer, if you wish to engage. Half the time, things aren't answers here simply because YOU don't wish to engage the issues, one of which is that a godless ethics is essentially a somewhat derelict ethics, cut off from any real ontological grounding other than making grandiose references to things like the work of Frans de Waal.

Moreover, if you've already firmly decided that God is immoral because you ASSUME YOUR OWN ETHICAL POSITION TRUE and you think it gives you "proper" ethical evaluations, then there's NOTHING God will be able to do to convince you otherwise since the actions are done and you refuse to listen to any further challenges to your own ethical conceptions. It essentially boils down to it all being a matter of YOUR willingness to listen and consider, not of God's Omnipotence.
This is absurd. I am willing to listen. Beliefs are not chosen, you are either convinced or not. If god gives me sufficient evidence to believe he exists and is moral I will have no choice but to believe. Can he do that?

So, you better look at that link I provided you and read the article I've posted there. I don't think you realize the tenuous nature of your own ethics. And I for one am NOT going to let it slide, not here, not from you, not from anyone! I will take ANYONE to task over this, and I will do so until my last dying breath! o_O
I better huh. You don't know my position on human rights, you are assuming them. I will read the paper.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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This is absurd. I am willing to listen. Beliefs are not chosen, you are either convinced or not. If god gives me sufficient evidence to believe he exists and is moral I will have no choice but to believe. Can he do that?
The beliefs that result from our encounters with the world around us might be autonomic, but we DO choose the ways in which to we engage various issues as we evaluate both the structures of our thoughts and the interacting our thoughts have with our evaluations. So, while on a level of the 1st order of thinking the nature of belief might not be 'chosen,' there actually does come into play some decision making as we move to the higher, 2nd order of thought and evaluation.

I better huh. You don't know my position on human rights, you are assuming them. I will read the paper.
Yes, please read the paper. It's very basic, beginning material that I learned while studying Social Philosophy and Ethics at the university.
 
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LoG

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But what "personal experience" and have you ever seen a god or spoken with one like Abraham did (Gen 18)?

If you do a google search for "Jesus visions" there are quite a number of hits for people who have seen him since His ascension. This link lists quite a number over the past 2000 years recorded by the Catholic church alone. Appearances
 
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RBPerry

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So what parts of the bible have any relevance to the 21st century and which parts are just pure fantasy, given that the bible says that there are many gods (Deut 10:17 Gen 1:26-27 Exodus 20:1-3). And afterall Jesus didn't claim to be a god nor to be without sin (Mark 10:18) and only claimed to be a prophet, even though his own family (including his mother and her husband) didn't believe him (Matt 13:55-8).

I will respond to your questions, first all it is interesting where God said "let us" meaning plural or others involved create man. Most of the Genius is not from written documents that we know of, they were word of mouth history handed down from one generation to the next.
When the bible speaks of other gods, it is normally speaking of idol worship, and beliefs in non existent gods, such as the sun god worshipers and many others. It clearly states the God is one God and there are no others like him.

Prior to Jesus death and resurrection people considered him a prophet, they hadn't associated him with the old testament prophesies of the coming messiah. Jesus said we all fall short of God's expectations and demands, He was not implying that he had sinned, He is the Son of God, and was without sin.

When you study a book, any book, you need to read the entire book to get the entire story. The bible is a historical account of the life of Jesus Christ. Literalist will say it is without error, I'm not a literalist because there are errors in the bible, but that doesn't mean the message is false, it just means the translations, varying accounts, and most importantly those who put the original cannon together I believe made some serious mistakes.
 
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Ronald

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Atheist come in many varieties just as Christians do. What so many theists do in their attempt to debate with atheist is to convince them of the accuracy of the bible, and that is generally a waste of time. Many atheists are well versed in the bible, they may have been raised in the Christian home and taught Christian principles and then walked away. The issue isn’t why they are atheists but understanding that since they believe there is no god, they generally believe that there is no existence outside of the physical existence that we the living are part of.

It is like attempting to tell someone what clean air looks like, you can not debate spiritual issues with physical examples it normally doesn’t work unless they are on their death bed, then at times they become receptive to the idea of a spiritual existence outside of the physical body.

Those of us that have been around a lot of death can tell when the spirit leaves the body, and many times it does before the physical body is clinically dead. What do I mean by clinically dead, a flat line EEG, meaning the brain is dead. Personally, I believe once the frontal lobe has ceased to function that is normally physical death. The first thing you will hear from the skeptical side of this is the dying brain theory and that has been debunked in my opinion.

Almost every Christian I know has had a come to Jesus experience in their lives, it may not have been traumatic or earth shaking, but the Holy Spirit gave them the spiritual insight and the faith to believe in God. Many have had that experience and still walked away for whatever reason.

Some of the most profound experiences is commonly referred to as near death experiences. Some truly are near death, but many were clinically dead long enough to dispel the dying brain theory. Along with many of these testimonies are subjective, meaning the individuals testimony can’t be substantiated, they may be true, but the lack of scientific or medical evidence to support their stories leave them questionable.

At one time I would waste considerable time attempting to debate atheists and finally realized it was a waste of time. If a person is closed minded to any subject, then there is no room for debate or evaluation of evidence or beliefs.

If a person is an agnostic and willing to make an honest evaluation of Christianity, then you have someone you can have a meaningful dialog with. Again, they must first understand that the spirit and the physical body are separate, the spirit is who you really are, and your body is just the shell that the spirit functions through while the body is alive.

I had one very meaningful relationship with an atheist and as stated above, all my arguments were a waste of time. I left him with this, “If you ever want to know if there is a God, ask Him to reveal himself to you, give a come to Jesus moment. Two years later he looked me up, his comment was interesting, “You made me so angry, I didn’t want to even consider a god, but I had a come to Jesus moment, and I now know the truth.”

The other side is I gave a friend the book “Evidence that demands a verdict”, and “A case for Christ”. He read both and a few weeks later we had lunch, I asked him about both books. His comment was “Very compelling evidence that I find very difficult to dispute, however I still don’t believe.” He is a law professor, and we remained friends until his death a few years ago. That convinced me that with some people no matter the evidence, they will refuse to believe. I think with some people it is a sin they hold onto and will refuse to let go of that blinds them to the reality of God, but that is just my opinion.

It is interesting that many atheists that had death experiences and returned are no longer atheists and were given another chance in life. Obviously, God seen some redeeming qualities in the person, and that is understandable because I know many non-believers that are wonderful people.

Remember Jesus instructions to the disciples, they were told to go into a town, share the gospel, if it was rejected wipe the dust off their feet and move on. My point to all of is why waste a great deal of time with someone that is just looking for an argument, with little or no desire to know the truth?

I went through years of using apologetics with atheists, so much so that I studied The Theory of Evolution in order to dismantle it and it was futlie ... except with my father. I even wrote a 30 page editorial that contained many quotes from brilliant scholars who have refuted Evolution every which way and have to him and still he resisted. Well, he finally dropped his resistance a few years before his death. It is true, many stand firm this way all their lives but when they are weakened and dying with not much time left, they become more humble and less prideful. This is common. The Lord does give ample opportunities during their lives which become like dormant seeds that come to light at a later time. But realize that no intellectual reasoning ever converted anyone. No one comes to the Father UNLESS HE FIRST DRAWS THEM. HE HAS TO REMOVE THE VEIL OF BLINDNESS, THEY CAN'T NOR CAN WE. We just give a defense of our faith when the Holy Spirit guides us to do so. If He is not with your evangelism, you might as well talk to a wall. Speaking of evangelism, it is a gift that many do not possess (Eph. 4:11)
Faith comes by the Word. As you say some atheists have read the Bible and on the surface understand some general principals. But scripture is spiritually discerned. If they don't have the Spirit, they fail to see and understand spiritually and receive deeper meaning.
We never know why someone doesn't believe. Romans 1 says man is without excuse given what God has already revealed to them.
But let me share my Dad's reason. He grew up in a Catholic, Italian home with 7 sisters. He was a first generation American, born in 1931. When he was ten, his father got Tuberculosis and it didn't look good. This little boy got on His knees and prayed to God for his fathers life - but God said no, so from that point, this boy was crushed and had no reason to believe. However, all through his life, he held into those Christian principals that his parents taught him. He became a good man, a gentleman who was a kind, patient, loving father, who put his family first. He never said a bad word about anyone. He always said " If you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything." He was a hard worker, good provider and so meeting him, you might think this guy must be a Christian. He always taught us the golden rule. So I asked him one day ( a few years after I had become a Christian), "Where do you think that came from? He thought that this principal, like all the other values and morals he was taught and lived by, evolved from civilization. I said no, it came from Jesus. He was actually practicing living like a Christian unbeknownst to him. You see, God did not forget him, he was on His list to be saved at a later time.
 
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Mitty

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I will respond to your questions, first all it is interesting where God said "let us" meaning plural or others involved create man. Most of the Genius is not from written documents that we know of, they were word of mouth history handed down from one generation to the next.
When the bible speaks of other gods, it is normally speaking of idol worship, and beliefs in non existent gods, such as the sun god worshipers and many others. It clearly states the God is one God and there are no others like him.

Prior to Jesus death and resurrection people considered him a prophet, they hadn't associated him with the old testament prophesies of the coming messiah. Jesus said we all fall short of God's expectations and demands, He was not implying that he had sinned, He is the Son of God, and was without sin.

When you study a book, any book, you need to read the entire book to get the entire story. The bible is a historical account of the life of Jesus Christ. Literalist will say it is without error, I'm not a literalist because there are errors in the bible, but that doesn't mean the message is false, it just means the translations, varying accounts, and most importantly those who put the original cannon together I believe made some serious mistakes.
I have read the book, and since I've never seen a god or heard one or felt or smelt one then it's still just a book written by men, for men, about a small society of men and their history and laws and myths including the gods they created in their images and likenesses.

And the bible says there are many gods (Deut 10:17) as described in Genesis 1:26-27 and the hierarchy of those gods is described in Exodus 20:1-3.

And where does Jesus say that he was without sin, given he said that he wasn't a god since he wasn't without sin and even cursed his god when he unsuccessfully asked for help from it while he was being executed by the Romans for sedition and claiming to be the Jewish king (Matt 27:46), and why the genealogies for his adoptive father (Matt 1) and for his biological father (Luke 3) link him to King David who was his god's begotten son (Psalm 2:7) even though he was an adulterous murderer who said that Jonathon's love was more wonderful than with any of his wives and concubines. And afterall Jesus was described as a boozer which he didn't deny (Matt 11:19) who irresponsibly made some "well drunk" wedding guests even drunker by performing a conjuring trick with some previously hidden wine instead of responsibly suggesting they drink the water instead (John 2:1-10).
 
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Mitty

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If you do a google search for "Jesus visions" there are quite a number of hits for people who have seen him since His ascension. This link lists quite a number over the past 2000 years recorded by the Catholic church alone. Appearances
Alas I've never seen a god or spoken to one, and therefore have no reason to believe they exist, even though I have daily visions too.
 
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RBPerry

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I have read the book, and since I've never seen a god or heard one or felt or smelt one then it's still just a book written by men, for men, about a small society of men and their history and laws and myths including the gods they created in their images and likenesses.

And the bible says there are many gods (Deut 10:17) as described in Genesis 1:26-27 and the hierarchy of those gods is described in Exodus 20:1-3.

And where does Jesus say that he was without sin, given he said that he wasn't a god and even cursed his god when he unsuccessfully asked for help from it when he was being executed by the Romans for sedition and claiming to be the Jewish king (Matt 27:46), and why the genealogies for his adoptive father (Matt 1) and for his biological father (Luke 3) link him to King David who was his god's begotten son (Psalm 2:7) even though he was an adulterous murderer who said that Jonathon's love was more wonderful than with any of his wives and concubines. And afterall Jesus was described as a boozer which he didn't deny (Matt 11:19) who irresponsibly made some "well drunk" wedding guests even drunker by performing a conjuring trick with some previously hidden wine instead of responsibly suggesting they drink the water instead (John 2:1-10).

You say you have read the entire bible, but your comprehension is extremely lacking and your distortions are merely an attempt to support your distrust of the bible. Have a great day.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Alas I've never seen a god or spoken to one, and therefore have no reason to believe they exist, even though I have daily visions too.

And I've never seen a Covid-19 cell, smelled one, nor yet been infected by one, but I surmise they do exist, nevertheless. :rolleyes:

Likewise, I think it's a clear mistake to put all of your Easter eggs in an Empirical Basket; mainly because that basket is too small.
 
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Mitty

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And I've never seen a Covid-19 cell, smelled one, nor yet been infected by one, but I surmise they do exist, nevertheless. :rolleyes:

Likewise, I think it's a clear mistake to put all of your Easter eggs in an Empirical Basket; mainly because that basket is too small.
Unlike gods, however, there is unequivocal evidence that Covid-19 virus particles exist but not Covid-19 cells as you claim, and are not just imaginative fantasies.
 
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