Regeneration before or after saving faith

Aussie Pete · Mar 17, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Good day, Aussie

Seeing the context of Romans chapter 3 and the measure of faith is in the context of the body and gifts to be used by individual members of the body. It is clear contextually where the measure of faith was given, and it's purpose for believers in the body

Romans 12 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.

As to your view that each person having faith Paul is pretty clear that all men do not have faith. To believe other wise would contradict the clear statement made by Paul in this text.

2 Thes 3: Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you, and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

In Him,

Bill

There is natural faith which everyone has. Then there is the faith of the Son of God that only believers possess.

Jonaitis · Mar 17, 2020

friend of said:
When does one become Regenerated? Does it happen before in order to empower us to believe or does it happen after we believe?

Play nice

Jesus said in John 3:5-8 that regeneration is an act entirely dependent on God. The reason is that we are naturally corrupt, blinded in our own sin, and cannot willingly choose faith. We are antagonistic towards and obnoxious before God in our natural self. The act of regeneration is that supernatural change of our internal dispositions to what is good and pleasing to God, so that we may willingly want to seek for Christ and his salvation. So without this transformation by the Spirit of God, we cannot believe savingly.

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14).

I want you to pay close attention to the wording of this text: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot." (Romans 8:7). If this is so, then much less can that man of the flesh submit to the Spirit. He needs to be changed first before he will ever believe.

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 18, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Did you ever in your life see an auction of slaves ? (even if on tv/ movies/ video/ web)

Or a sale thereof.

We all once were slaves of unrighteousness.

Galatians 3:13-15 NLV - Christ bought us with His blood ...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians+3:13-15&version=NLV
Galatians 3:13-15 New Life Version (NLV). 13 Christ bought us with His blood and made us free from the Law. In that way, the Law could not punish us. Christ did this by carrying the load and by being punished instead of us. It is written, "Anyone who hangs on a cross is hated and punished." 14 Because of the price Christ Jesus paid, the good things that came to Abraham might come to the ...

BBAS 64 · Mar 18, 2020

Aussie Pete said:
There is natural faith which everyone has. Then there is the faith of the Son of God that only believers possess.

Good Day, Aussie

I understand what you are saying... not so sure I would use the term "natural faith".

Three aspects of Faith defined:

Three Aspects of Faith

In Him,

Bill

bling · Mar 18, 2020

nolidad said:
Maybe! Teh mystery of how an unsaved enemy of God turns from opposing God to receiving HIm is one mystery that will be open to much discussion till we see HIm face to face!

A soldier can give up, wimp out and surrender to his enemy, but he is not joining his enemy and in fact all soldiers who surrender hate their enemy at the time of their surrendering and may feel even with surrendering they will be tortured and killed for previous war crimes. There is only two thing needed and they are: the believe that their enemy just may have an great enough Love (charity) to extend total undeserved charity to them and they need to humbly accept that charity as charity.

bling · Mar 18, 2020

Jonaitis said:
Jesus said in John 3:5-8 that regeneration is an act entirely dependent on God. The reason is that we are naturally corrupt, blinded in our own sin, and cannot willingly choose faith. We are antagonistic towards and obnoxious before God in our natural self. The act of regeneration is that supernatural change of our internal dispositions to what is good and pleasing to God, so that we may willingly want to seek for Christ and his salvation. So without this transformation by the Spirit of God, we cannot believe savingly.

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14).

I want you to pay close attention to the wording of this text: "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot." (Romans 8:7). If this is so, then much less can that man of the flesh submit to the Spirit. He needs to be changed first before he will ever believe.

You do not start with the nonbelieving sinner doing something noble, worthy, honorable, glorious, righteous or holy, but prior to that when God is his enemy. The “good stuff” man does comes as a result of the wonderful gifts God gives the person, so it is more out of gratitude (Love) for what God has done. This is before God has done anything for him.

A soldier can give up, wimp out and surrender to his enemy, but he is not joining his enemy and in fact all soldiers who surrender hate their enemy at the time of their surrendering and may feel even with surrendering they will be tortured and killed for previous war crimes. There are only two things needed and they are: the believe that their enemy just may have a great enough Love (charity) to extend total undeserved charity to them and they need to humbly accept that charity as charity.

Contenders Edge · Mar 18, 2020

friend of said:
When does one become Regenerated? Does it happen before in order to empower us to believe or does it happen after we believe?

Play nice

According to scripture, regeneration, or what we would call, an inward spiritual transformation, manifests itself after we embrace a saving faith in our Lord. Upon receiving Christ, we are supposed to become dead to the sins and trespasses in which we once walked and instead of giving ourselves over to those things displeasing to the God to whom we have given ourselves to, we should want to serve and obey Him as best as we can.

And we should want to strengthen the new nature that we have received in Christ as much as we can and cause the old nature that wars against it, to become as weak as possible. The evidence of repentance and sincere faith is a life that has been transformed by it.

BBAS 64 · Mar 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
According to scripture, regeneration, or what we would call, an inward spiritual transformation, manifests itself after we embrace a saving faith in our Lord. Upon receiving Christ, we are supposed to become dead to the sins and trespasses in which we once walked and instead of giving ourselves over to those things displeasing to the God to whom we have given ourselves to, we should want to serve and obey Him as best as we can.

And we should want to strengthen the new nature that we have received in Christ as much as we can and cause the old nature that wars against it, to become as weak as possible. The evidence of repentance and sincere faith is a life that has been transformed by it.

Good Day, Contenders Edge

"According to scripture, regeneration, or what we would call, an inward spiritual transformation, manifests itself after we embrace a saving faith in our Lord. "

I agree what you say about regeneration, but that would be something God does and in that work of God we are directly effected for a purpose.

Not so sure that Scripture teach this at all and would be interested where in Scripture that comes from.

Where does one get this faith from that in your words "embrace"?

If I could have your take on post 47 that would be great.

Regeneration before or after saving faith

In Him,

Bill

Contenders Edge · Mar 18, 2020

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, Contenders Edge

"According to scripture, regeneration, or what we would call, an inward spiritual transformation, manifests itself after we embrace a saving faith in our Lord. "

I agree what you say about regeneration, but that would be something God does and in that work of God we are directly effected for a purpose.

Not so sure that Scripture teach this at all and would be interested where in Scripture that comes from.

Where does one get this faith from that in your words "embrace"?

If I could have your take on post 47 that would be great.

Regeneration before or after saving faith

In Him,

Bill

But we must be willing to allow God to transform us and do that work in us, and as far as a scriptural teaching goes, have you not read where it is written that those who come to repentance are made new in Christ? (2 Cor. 5:17) If that is not scriptural evidence that saving faith and regeneration go hand in hand, then I don't know what is.

As far as post 47 goes, God does call all to repentance. (2 Pet. 3:9) Jesus did not just die for some and not others. He died for all people (Jn. 3:16) But not all come to repentance because they who refuse to repent would rather be in the darkness than the light and choose to live in sin rather than in holiness. It is a choice that everyone makes for themselves. And while it is always God that leads us into following His commands, it is we who must choose to follow His lead. He does not produce mindless slaves.

And though the cited passage from Ezekiel pertains to the nation of Israel, it is also applicable to anyone who comes to repentance: Their heart is softened towards their Maker. They receive the good news of Salvation in Christ and undergo a spiritual transformation. The Spirit that now resides inside the repentant person is a Spirit that was not present in them before.

Eventually, the nation of Israel will also undergo this foretold transformation as well when they come to receive the Messiah they had once rejected.

Hammster · Mar 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
But we must be willing to allow God to transform us and do that work in us, and as far as a scriptural teaching goes, have you not read where it is written that those who come to repentance are made new in Christ? (2 Cor. 5:17) If that is not scriptural evidence that saving faith and regeneration go hand in hand, then I don't know what is

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
— 2 Corinthians 5:17

There’s nothing in that verse about saving faith or regeneration. At least not as far as faith preceding regeneration.

Al Touthentop · Mar 18, 2020

friend of said:
When does one become Regenerated? Does it happen before in order to empower us to believe or does it happen after we believe?

Play nice

Regeneration is being born again. Jesus let us know how that is done. It isn't a feeling and it isn't done to us. We are commanded to do it. It's up to the believer to figure out how it works but I would suggest a careful reading of Romans 6.

Contenders Edge · Mar 18, 2020

Hammster said:
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
— 2 Corinthians 5:17

There’s nothing in that verse about saving faith or regeneration. At least not as far as faith preceding regeneration.

It ought to be clear that without faith, there is no regeneration as Paul is certainly not calling anyone outside of Christ a new creature.

Al Touthentop · Mar 18, 2020

Hammster said:
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
— 2 Corinthians 5:17

There’s nothing in that verse about saving faith or regeneration. At least not as far as faith preceding regeneration.

Regeneration - being born again - is a command.

Hammster · Mar 18, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
Regeneration is being born again. Jesus let us know how that is done. It isn't a feeling and it isn't done to us. We are commanded to do it. It's up to the believer to figure out how it works but I would suggest a careful reading of Romans 6.

Where are we commanded?

Hammster · Mar 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
It ought to be clear that without faith, there is no regeneration as Paul is certainly not calling anyone outside of Christ a new creature.

Then you aren’t really getting that from the text, but reading into the text.

Hammster · Mar 18, 2020

Al Touthentop said:
Regeneration - being born again - is a command.

Where?

Contenders Edge · Mar 18, 2020

Hammster said:
Then you aren’t really getting that from the text, but reading into the text.

I'm not reading anything to the text. The text clearly implies it.

nolidad · Mar 18, 2020

bling said:
A soldier can give up, wimp out and surrender to his enemy, but he is not joining his enemy and in fact all soldiers who surrender hate their enemy at the time of their surrendering and may feel even with surrendering they will be tortured and killed for previous war crimes. There is only two thing needed and they are: the believe that their enemy just may have an great enough Love (charity) to extend total undeserved charity to them and they need to humbly accept that charity as charity.

Yup! The whats are not in question, just when things happen in the order they do in that nanosecond when a person becomes regenerated!

Hammster · Mar 18, 2020

Contenders Edge said:
I'm not reading anything to the text. The text clearly implies it.

It implies that if you are in Christ you are a new creation. Nothing in the text says how you get to that state.

Contenders Edge · Mar 18, 2020

Hammster said:
It implies that if you are in Christ you are a new creation. Nothing in the text says how you get to that state.

No, there are other passages throughout scripture that address that, but if we are new creatures in Christ, we certainly are not new creatures apart from Him. Therefore it clearly implies that faith in Christ brings about regeneration.

Regeneration before or after saving faith

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