Are those who deny eternal punishment doomed to Hell?
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Tra Phull
Ecumenical Loose Canon
It seemed to me, RLH , that you were saying the Athanasian Creed bolstered doctrine of perseverance of the saints. John was written well before 381, when the ancient church, pre-schism, wrote the Nicene Creed, which did not include the filioque. When the real creed was written in steps of Vatican, and how long it was til the Roman Catholic church tried to CHANGE IT, and add filioque, I do not know.
But the verse in John you mentioned seems a PRONOUNCEMENT to receive the Holy Spirit - Jesus later told disciples to remain in Jerusalem until they actually did receive Him/It.
But the verse in John you mentioned seems a PRONOUNCEMENT to receive the Holy Spirit - Jesus later told disciples to remain in Jerusalem until they actually did receive Him/It.
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Tra Phull
Ecumenical Loose Canon
In the early verses of Acts 1, Jesus was speaking of the coming of the Holy Ghost to the discipline loo es as something which would happen in the future - not many days hence.
That is why I consider the passage in John where He breathed on them and announced they should receive Him/It as a Pronouncement, they did not receive the Holy Ghost at that day, but rather at Pentecost, when 120 people first actually received it.
Speaking about the Holy Ghost before it came, Jesus said "Whom the FATHER shall send in My name" - so Hagion Pneuma proceeds from the FATHER, in Jesus name.
I have heard it said by some Orthos that if the wording had been "proceeds from the Father THROUGH the Son" everything would have been cool, but alas, it was not.
What this has to do with Athanasian Creed, I trow not.
But IMHO, the disciples were breathed on and had a PRONOUNCEMENT about gettin' The Ghost before they actually DID GET IT AT PENTECOST, amid the 120 people.
Did the 3000 added to the church after Peter preached to them on Joel - did they all receive the Holy Spirit then too? (I think so)
That is why I consider the passage in John where He breathed on them and announced they should receive Him/It as a Pronouncement, they did not receive the Holy Ghost at that day, but rather at Pentecost, when 120 people first actually received it.
Speaking about the Holy Ghost before it came, Jesus said "Whom the FATHER shall send in My name" - so Hagion Pneuma proceeds from the FATHER, in Jesus name.
I have heard it said by some Orthos that if the wording had been "proceeds from the Father THROUGH the Son" everything would have been cool, but alas, it was not.
What this has to do with Athanasian Creed, I trow not.
But IMHO, the disciples were breathed on and had a PRONOUNCEMENT about gettin' The Ghost before they actually DID GET IT AT PENTECOST, amid the 120 people.
Did the 3000 added to the church after Peter preached to them on Joel - did they all receive the Holy Spirit then too? (I think so)
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Tra Phull
Ecumenical Loose Canon
I have no edit feature, "to the disciples" is what I wrote, but autocorrect kicked in.
Regarding the OP, it has been pointed out that Strong, an annihilation, would not follow the deal in ATHANASIAN CURSE, neither would Barclay, a Universalist
My point is it is no big deal what Pseudo-Athanasius wrote - this be not a true CREED, and ya caint anathemize someone for not believing sumpn WHAT AIN'T !!
Regarding the OP, it has been pointed out that Strong, an annihilation, would not follow the deal in ATHANASIAN CURSE, neither would Barclay, a Universalist
My point is it is no big deal what Pseudo-Athanasius wrote - this be not a true CREED, and ya caint anathemize someone for not believing sumpn WHAT AIN'T !!
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Tra Phull
Ecumenical Loose Canon
Annihilationist, I mean, for Strong.
Barclay is quite a commentator, and was definitely Universalist.
I believe in neither annihilationism nor universalism, but do not say that one cannot be saved if they believe such
I think Anathasius the person was great, the pseudo-creed that got attributed to him - not so keen on.
Barclay is quite a commentator, and was definitely Universalist.
I believe in neither annihilationism nor universalism, but do not say that one cannot be saved if they believe such
I think Anathasius the person was great, the pseudo-creed that got attributed to him - not so keen on.
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- Jun 6, 2014
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That’s what we’re gonna be judged on.
2 Corinthians 5:10
Revelation 22:12
if we’re not judged based on our actions, what exactly are we being judged on?
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- Jun 14, 2019
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Personally these are peripheral beliefs and are not worthy of damnation. As long as the core beliefs about Jesus are held and they live with a clean conscience regarding sin it is not that difficult to be saved.
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Well, the problem is with any teaching that goes hard against the Gospel. So for Christians to be silent or indifferent on the matter of damnation is not helpful nor upholding the fullness of God's Word. We should proclaim both God's Law and God's Gospel.
Unitarians teach that man is too good to be eternally damned, Universalists (and Annihilationists) maintain that God is too good to damn man eternally, and Atheists insists that there is no hell. But God's Word is very clear on this: All who believe in the person and works of our Lord Jesus Christ and is baptised into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are saved, but those who do not believe are condemned. And this condemnation is a permanent separation from God, which is why we use the expression of "eternal". For nowhere in Scriptures does it teach Universalist/Unitarian doctrine, nor does it promise a second salvation in the new creation, as if people still had sin and were able to repent. But it explicitly and consistently speaks of blessings and judgment; life for the believer, damnation for the unbeliever.
In fine, we must uphold both God's righteousness and grace, which is what the Athanasian Creed gets at.
Unitarians teach that man is too good to be eternally damned, Universalists (and Annihilationists) maintain that God is too good to damn man eternally, and Atheists insists that there is no hell. But God's Word is very clear on this: All who believe in the person and works of our Lord Jesus Christ and is baptised into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are saved, but those who do not believe are condemned. And this condemnation is a permanent separation from God, which is why we use the expression of "eternal". For nowhere in Scriptures does it teach Universalist/Unitarian doctrine, nor does it promise a second salvation in the new creation, as if people still had sin and were able to repent. But it explicitly and consistently speaks of blessings and judgment; life for the believer, damnation for the unbeliever.
In fine, we must uphold both God's righteousness and grace, which is what the Athanasian Creed gets at.
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Ignatius the Kiwi
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I only go as far as to say that if you deny eternal punishment you are guilty of bad theology. If you preach such to others that they might be redeemed they are guilty of preaching a false theology.
Whether this damns them, who can say. That's up to God to decide. Not us.
Whether this damns them, who can say. That's up to God to decide. Not us.
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I certainly wouldn't, and have never tried to, scare people into faith.
Why speak about hell when you can concentrate on, and proclaim, God's amazing love shown in Jesus and the cross? People want to know that they are loved unconditionally, that they don't need to be good enough for heaven or earn their place there, and that they have hope and a purpose in life. That's the Good News - not "hell is scary, you'd better accept Jesus so that you don't go there."
People go to hell because they have lived without God, died in their sins and rejected his forgiveness and free gift of eternal life, Romans 6:23. It doesn't matter, imo, whether they accept eternal punishment or not. Jesus saves.
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Since salvation is an act of Divine Grace through Faith in Christ Jesus, I don’t see faith in an eternal hell for wayward man as essential. I was raised a Missouri Synod Lutheran and went to Lutheran schools through the 6th grade. You may be correct on their teaching on hell but I’m unaware of it. I do pray that you don’t get hung up on dogma. God Knows how to raise His children and you can be sure that none of us will be going to Heaven without being born again. Please consider the Scripture “I will have mercy and not sacrifice”. Do you think that God enjoyed people killing animals and burning them for sacrifice. What did the sacrifice of animals have to do with what God was Teaching? Perhaps the giving up of something valuable?
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- Dec 2, 2016
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I've bolded Orthodox as I can't speak for anyone else, but if an Orthodox Christian claims to not profess a belief in eternal punishment they were poorly catechized, and/or need to have a discussion with their Godparent/priest about the topic. That's not the correct belief of the Orthodox church on the topic.
Also, I realize you've not said that the Orthodox church believes that I just wanted to clarify what it does profess on the topic
As to whether it causes eternal damnation if one doesn't believe in it? I think Ignatius the Kiwi answered that pretty well in post # 32.
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Are you trying to convince me Jesus has an eternal torture chamber?
Jesus taught and healed. He did not strike with the sword. Dying might be like falling asleep and not waking for some, except for the day of judgement. Not living again is eternal damnation. It is not like God would boil people in a pot alive forever for dropping out of church services.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
It is a surprise for almost everyone to learn that the definition of "eternal" and even of "forever" where it occurs in English translations, OT and NT, does not mean what it means in Hebrew or Greek, except in few cases. It does not always mean eternal or forever - it was just what the translators had to work with.
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NW82
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I don't know why this is even a question, like most things here. Scripture clearly states the answer, so the only thing being argued in this thread is people saying what they want to believe rather than truth, which is unchanged.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
The nature of the world is rejecting truth. Few ever enter the Kingdom of God. Jesus says, turn to God, for His Kingdom is at hand. (not far off). So whoever turns to God , is a good start, we hope.
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Only God knows. We know ourselves and what we have done on a personal level. When God loves us he comprehends eternal punishment and what it may mean to us personally. When we believe in different things we might find more of His comprehension.
As far as many who stand for themselves, false punishment would seem like a really messed up plan for those who want salvation to be true in their lives. Maybe requiring eternal punishment is used for subconscious ways about salvation?
Either way our love for God shows light in this kind of comprehension. His love for us helps us find these kind of things that become too crazy to really understand right now.
As far as many who stand for themselves, false punishment would seem like a really messed up plan for those who want salvation to be true in their lives. Maybe requiring eternal punishment is used for subconscious ways about salvation?
Either way our love for God shows light in this kind of comprehension. His love for us helps us find these kind of things that become too crazy to really understand right now.
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