Is the Rapture biblical?

iamlamad said:

That is a theory - but it is not the right theory. It is future, as is most of Revelation.

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Do you think that Jesus would have left the first century new Christians in the lurch to testify vaguely thousands of years into the future?

sovereigngrace said:

Speak for yourself. He is not the god of my world. You have a habit of ignoring multiple Scripture that refutes your position. Please address what I wrote instead of voicing your opinions all the time. That is the only way your doctrine survives.

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Did I say he was the god of your world? He is the god of the entire world, but not the god of individual believer's worlds. We have a blood line he cannot cross.
There are scriptures behind what this. Why then do you accuse me? You don't address my questions, why should I address any more of yours? Do I need to show you these scriptures - or do you know them?

summerville said:

Do you think that Jesus would have left the first century new Christians in the lurch to testify vaguely thousands of years into the future?

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He has left the same message for perhaps 40 generations. He has left no one in the lurch in all those generations.

sovereigngrace said:

This is describing the same climactic coming of Christ as Paul was in 1 Thessalonians 4. You have Christ’s appearing, the rescue of the saints and the destruction of the wicked.

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Sorry, but this is simply not true: in 1 Thes. He comes only to the air.
Where do you find a touch-down on the Mt of Olives in 1 Thes. 4?
Where do you find the battle of Armageddon in 1 Thes. 4?
Where do you find a catching up in Rev. 19?
Where do you find Him in the clouds in Rev. 19?

The truth: TWO more comings: first FOR His bride, then 7 years later WITH His bride. This is scripture, rightly divided.

iamlamad said:

He has left the same message for perhaps 40 generations. He has left no one in the lurch in all those generations.

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Except the rapture and dispensationalism are new beliefs. John Nelson Darby is the father of dispensationalism.. These beliefs changed Protestantism during the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression.

He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.

What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture ...
What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture?fathers-believe-about-the-rapture
Aug 02, 2013 · “ The Rapture doctrine, which was the invention of the Plymouth Brethren led by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), has today been adopted by most Baptist, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and a variety of other fundamentalist sects.

Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD
https://www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm
Rapture doctrine did not exist before John Darby invented it in 1830 AD. Before it "popped into John Darby's head" no one had ever heard of a secret rapture doctrine.

summerville said:

What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture ...
What Did Ancient Church Fathers Believe About The Rapture?fathers-believe-about-the-rapture
Aug 02, 2013 · “ The Rapture doctrine, which was the invention of the Plymouth Brethren led by John Nelson Darby (1800-1882), has today been adopted by most Baptist, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God, and a variety of other fundamentalist sects.

Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD
https://www.bible.ca/rapture-origin-john-nelson-darby-1830ad.htm
Rapture doctrine did not exist before John Darby invented it in 1830 AD. Before it "popped into John Darby's head" no one had ever heard of a secret rapture doctrine.

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This is all myth: it has been shown over and over on these threads that first and second century writers wrote of a pretrib rapture. Does it make you feel better to write this myth?

THE TRUTH? The rapture doctrine was invented BY GOD before the foundation of the world, and God kept it secret until it was revealed to Paul.

Why make up myths about something written clearly in God's word? Go and refresh your mind: read 1 Thes chapter 4 & 5.

summerville said:

Except the rapture and dispensationalism are new beliefs. John Nelson Darby is the father of dispensationalism.. These beliefs changed Protestantism during the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression.

He is considered to be the father of modern Dispensationalism and Futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.

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Sorry, but dispensations have been written in the bible since the bible was written. Darby only wrote of what the bible already contained. You know absolutely (or should know) that we are not under Moses' Law. We live under a different dispensation.

iamlamad said:

This is all myth: it has been shown over and over on these threads that first and second century writers wrote of a pretrib rapture. Does it make you feel better to write this myth?

THE TRUTH? The rapture doctrine was invented BY GOD before the foundation of the world, and God kept it secret until it was revealed to Paul.

Why make up myths about something written clearly in God's word? Go and refresh your mind: read 1 Thes chapter 4 & 5.

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Sorry. I don't know how old you are, but people who believed in the Rapture were considered kooks .. and it was confined to fringe churches.. not mainstream Protestant sects until Hal Lindsey popularized it in the early 1970s.

During the Depression and the Dust Bowl it was taught by traveling preachers at the tent revivals.


The term 'Rapture' first became popular in the United States toward the end of the 19th century through teachings on premillennialism and dispensationalism by John Nelson Darby, an Irish evangelist.

The rapture theory continued to grow in popularity among evangelicals largely due to a preacher named William Eugene Blackstone (1841-1935). His book, Jesus is Coming, sold more than one million copies.

In the late 1960's and 1970's, during the Jesus Movement, the Rapture theory made its way into many popular secular songs such as Are You Ready? by Pacific Gas & Electric and In The Year 2525 by Zager and Evans.

The Rapture theory gained even greater interest during this time due to the books of Hal Lindsey. In The Late Great Planet Earth Lindsey
conditions at the time.

In 1972 Russell S. Doughten produced a four-part movie series beginning with A Thief in the Night. The film recorded the events surrounding the Rapture in a terrifying way, creating widespread public interest in the theory.

In 1991 the film The Rapture, with Mimi Rogers was released. It recorded one woman's experience through the Rapture.

More recently, the popular Christian book series based on the events surrounding the Rapture is the Left Behind series by Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins.

continued

What Does the Bible Say About the Rapture?

For the readers: notice what happens when a posttribber gets hit with the truth of scripture on a pretrib rapture of the church: This is how they answer:

Quotes;
So far you have nothing to prove Pretrib. All you have is elaborate extra-biblical man-made theories that do not say what you are wanting the inspired text to say.

You don't even have one single proof text that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a 3rd coming of Christ. It does not exist in the sacred text. You just cherry pick detail from various unrelated passages in Scripture, dump them all into a pot, and stir them together, and lo and behold what is produced is Pretrib.

Again, as is you habit, you force it in where it does not belong. That is typical of your hermeneutics. You make it up as you go. You force Scripture to say what it doesn't say!

What is more, you have to rip it out of its historical context and propel it into the unknown, without any hermeneutical grounds to do so, and apply it to some imaginary '7-year' age in the future.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

This is out of order and should be stopped forthwith. It is accusatory, unfair and wrong. Just because you have no biblical justification for your theory doesn't mean you should turn on those engaging with you.

You refuse to answer numerous questions that expose your position.

IMO the Rapture is rubbish.


Sidestepping a statement that the Gentile church of today was not in existence in Daniel's timeL "What is the word for "Church" in Greek? What does it mean?"

That is the way every single unitary time prediction reads in Scripture. To be otherwise would render it meaningless and confusing.

What is more, you have to rip it out of its historical context and propel it into the unknown, without any hermeneutical grounds to do so, and apply it to some imaginary '7-year' age in the future.

You basically cherry pick detail from various unrelated passages in Scripture, dump them all into a pot, and stir them together, and Lo and behold what is produced but Pretrib. It is extra-biblical. It is unscriptural. This is senseless hermeneutics.

there are no two comings in Scripture, as your failure to prove such exemplifies. There ares no two comings in history. The Jesuits invented that 200 years ago to bring confusion amongst Protestants.

If you would care to look at the Bible through the openly and objectively Bible, and ignore what your Pretrib teachers have taught you, you will discover it.

That is your opinion, and it carries no merit.

This whole belief is a religious invention from the Jesuits. It has no biblical validity. How can anyone believe it? You have no actual foundational scripture the teachers what you believe. You have no proof texts.This explains why many of us have abandoned this theory.
End of quotes.

When they run of of answers such as these, they just ask endless questions as red herrings, hoping the other writers will forget they sidestepped the questions.

I have always wondered why the timing of the rapture causes so much anxiety!

I also wonder why people get so peeved when their pet doctrine is challenged.

iamlamad said:

Sorry, but this is simply not true: in 1 Thes. He comes only to the air.
Where do you find a touch-down on the Mt of Olives in 1 Thes. 4?
Where do you find the battle of Armageddon in 1 Thes. 4?

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LOL.

Where do you find a touch-down on the Mt of Olives in Rev19?
Where do you find the battle of Armageddon mentioned in Rev19?

Where do you find a catching up in Rev. 19?
Where do you find Him in the clouds in Rev. 19?

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Hello! Revelation 19:7-10 describes the consummation of our relationship with Christ when we join Him in the air: “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come [Gr. erchomai], and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are ‘called’ [Gr. kaleō] unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.”

This is the great union in the sky! This is the catching away. There is only one future coming.

This word “called” as in “called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb” comes from the Greek word kaleō meaning to be invited or bidden. This refers to the catching away of the saints when those on earth are bidden to meet Christ in the air.

This reading again shows correlates with the consistent catching away passages of Christ rescuing those who are ready: “the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.” This is a common thread that ties all these passages together. Those that are “ready are rescues” those that are caught unexpected are destroyed.

The truth: TWO more comings: first FOR His bride, then 7 years later WITH His bride. This is scripture, rightly divided.

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Really? You cannot even show me "a rapture" in Revelation. That says it all! I have shown that there is not one mention of a 7 year trib. It is imaginary. It doesn't exist. The numbers do not add up. They actually expose the theory.

iamlamad said:

Did I say he was the god of your world? He is the god of the entire world, but not the god of individual believer's worlds. We have a blood line he cannot cross.
There are scriptures behind what this. Why then do you accuse me? You don't address my questions, why should I address any more of yours? Do I need to show you these scriptures - or do you know them?

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You just do not get it. Take your Pretrib glasses off for one moment and let the sacred text speak for itself.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:28-29, “if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind (or) deo (Strong’s 1210) the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

Jesus said in Mark 3:23-27: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind (or deo Strong’s 1210) the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

Christ’s earthly ministry expressly bound Satan and damaged his wicked house on this earth. This was indeed what was prophesied in the Garden of Eden. It didn’t say that the cross would destroy him, but hamper him in his schemes. His head was bruised by the supernatural punch of Christ.

Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound (or deo Strong’s 1210) him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

The binding, imprisonment and sealing of the dragon are themselves metaphors for the curtailment of Satan's authority. While a prisoner has movement within a prison he is restricted to very clear boundaries that cannot be breached. If we view the heavenly angel as being Christ (as most commentators of all views do), then there seems reasonable grounds to come to that conclusion. This whole portrayal corresponds with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every other enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control in the heavenly realm. He holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted!

summerville said:

Do you think that Jesus would have left the first century new Christians in the lurch to testify vaguely thousands of years into the future?

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No. They received the holy Spirit at Pentecost. But now, it seems to have departed from most Churchs, because of their wrong doctrines and false teachings.

Jesus said: I will be with you always, until the end of the age. Matthew 28:19-20
Christians have testified to Jesus and still do so. Don't you?

As for those who promote the pre-trib 'rapture', they are locked into it and no amount of scriptural proof refuting the fable of people going to live in heaven, will change their minds.
This is how God wants it; the great test that will come upon everyone will be a shocking surprise and many will denounce God for not doing what they wanted Him to do.

iamlamad said:

For the readers: notice what happens when a posttribber gets hit with the truth of scripture on a pretrib rapture of the church: This is how they answer:

Quotes;
So far you have nothing to prove Pretrib. All you have is elaborate extra-biblical man-made theories that do not say what you are wanting the inspired text to say.

You don't even have one single proof text that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a 3rd coming of Christ. It does not exist in the sacred text. You just cherry pick detail from various unrelated passages in Scripture, dump them all into a pot, and stir them together, and lo and behold what is produced is Pretrib.

Again, as is you habit, you force it in where it does not belong. That is typical of your hermeneutics. You make it up as you go. You force Scripture to say what it doesn't say!

What is more, you have to rip it out of its historical context and propel it into the unknown, without any hermeneutical grounds to do so, and apply it to some imaginary '7-year' age in the future.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.

This is out of order and should be stopped forthwith. It is accusatory, unfair and wrong. Just because you have no biblical justification for your theory doesn't mean you should turn on those engaging with you.

You refuse to answer numerous questions that expose your position.

IMO the Rapture is rubbish.


Sidestepping a statement that the Gentile church of today was not in existence in Daniel's timeL "What is the word for "Church" in Greek? What does it mean?"

That is the way every single unitary time prediction reads in Scripture. To be otherwise would render it meaningless and confusing.

What is more, you have to rip it out of its historical context and propel it into the unknown, without any hermeneutical grounds to do so, and apply it to some imaginary '7-year' age in the future.

You basically cherry pick detail from various unrelated passages in Scripture, dump them all into a pot, and stir them together, and Lo and behold what is produced but Pretrib. It is extra-biblical. It is unscriptural. This is senseless hermeneutics.

there are no two comings in Scripture, as your failure to prove such exemplifies. There ares no two comings in history. The Jesuits invented that 200 years ago to bring confusion amongst Protestants.

If you would care to look at the Bible through the openly and objectively Bible, and ignore what your Pretrib teachers have taught you, you will discover it.

That is your opinion, and it carries no merit.

This whole belief is a religious invention from the Jesuits. It has no biblical validity. How can anyone believe it? You have no actual foundational scripture the teachers what you believe. You have no proof texts.This explains why many of us have abandoned this theory.
End of quotes.

When they run of of answers such as these, they just ask endless questions as red herrings, hoping the other writers will forget they sidestepped the questions.

I have always wondered why the timing of the rapture causes so much anxiety!

I also wonder why people get so peeved when their pet doctrine is challenged.

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Because it is not in the Bible! Hello! Many of us have abandoned this error because the Bible exposed it as man made.

I have asked you repeatedly a simple and basic question which you cannot remotely answer. That is because it is not in the Bible: Can you show us Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

The reasoning answer is: No! You have nothing. All you have is 2+2+2 equals 222, when in fact such adds up to 6. You do not have one single proof text. All you have is speculations and theories. The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Good day all,
Here is another perspective on the subject being discussed.Please forgive me if I am not able to respond to all who may comment.I have participated in this forum previously and had to suspend my participation as I just could not keep up with the pace and quantity of responses.



Rapture - Ecstatic delight or expression of it.(Pocket Oxford Dictionary)
Rapture - Mass ingathering of believers to Christ.(A popular preacher)


The word rapture does not appear in scripture(The English translations) but it is clear,from the Bible,that the Lord Jesus Christ will return to the earth in order to gather those who are His unto Himself.This event and the joyful expression accompanying such a happening is popularly called the rapture. Jesus Himself said:


"...I go to prepare a place for you,and if I go and prepare a place for you,I will come again,and receive you unto myself;that where I am,there ye may be also."[John 14:1-3]


The apostle Paul spoke of the joy of the event:


"For what is our hope,or joy, or crown of rejoicing?Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His coming?"[I Thessalonians 2:19]


Even as the apostle Paul rejoices to see the saints in the presence of the Lord so too will the saints be ecstatic when this come to pass.


"....But rejoice,in as much as ye are partakers of Christ's suffering;that when His glory shall be revealed,ye may be glad also with exceeding joy."[I Peter 4:13;See also,II Thessalonians 1:7-12]


Both those who had died in Christ and those who are alive will be partakers in this event.


"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with ashout,with the voice of the archangel,and with the trump of God:and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,to meet the Lord in the air:and so shall we ever be with the Lord."[I Thessalonians 4:16,17]


The dead are raised with a body free of corruption and infirmity and those who are alive are changed.


"So is the resurrection of the dead.It is sown in corruption;it is raised in incorruption:it is sown in dishonour;it is raised in glory:it is sown in weakness;it is raised in power....behold I shew you a mystery;we shall not all sleep,but we shall all be changed,in a moment,in the twinkling of an eye,at the last trump:for the trumpet shall sound,and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,and we shall be changed."[I Corinthians 15:42,43,51,52; IThessalonians 4: 16,17]


Many persons,being concerned about the coming of the Lord,have attempted to predict the date of His coming and many have even made elaborate preparations for His appearing as was seen in the advent movement of the 1800's.This is contrary to what Jesus taught about His coming as He said no man would know the time of His coming.


"But of that day and hour knoweth no man,no,not the angels of heaven but my Father only.But as the days of Noe were,so shall also the coming of the son of man shall be." [Matthew 24:36,37; Mark 13:32-37]


Even though Jesus had told this to His disciples they were still anxious to know when this would happen.


"When they were come together,they asked of Him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"[Acts 1:6;Matthew 25:31-34]


Jesus' answer is for us all:


"And He said unto them,it is not for you to know the times or seasons,which the Father hath put in His own power."[Acts 1:7;See also,I Thessalonians 5:1,2]


Jesus and the apostles wanted us to be prepared for His coming and not to be surprised as by a thief in the night.Although we would not know the exact time of His coming,Jesus gave information which would tell us that our redemption is near.


"And there shall be signs....and then shall they see the son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.And when these things begin to come to pass,then look up and lift up your heads;for your redemption draweth nigh."[Luke 21:25-28; See also,Matthew 24:33,42-51;I Thessalonians 5:2-9]


The apostle Peter gave a comprehensive warning of how prepared Christians should be at the Lord's coming for them.


"Knowing this first,that there shall come in the last days scoffers,
walking after their own lusts,and saying where is the promise of His coming?....But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;
.....Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation and godliness,looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,whrein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?....Wherefore beloved ,seeing that ye look for such things,be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace,without spot and blameless."[II Peter 3:3-14]


With this clear teaching that Christians should be looking for and hasting(earnestly desiring)the day of the Lord or the day of God,and are to be prepared for it,with it being called the promise of His coming;being the time for which the heavens were being preserved unto fire and being the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men,(See,II Peter 3:7,10) it is amazing to see persons dividing the coming of the Lord into a portion which is secret after which the day of the Lord occurs.They say the rapture is the coming of the Lord for His saints ie. the Church,after which the rest of the world is to experience a great tribulation and after a yet to be determined time period,(some say 3 1/2 years while others say 7 years)He will return with His saints for the fulfillment of the events of the day of the Lord.The above scriptures along with other passages prove this theory to be false and misleading. Peter has clearly stated that Christians must be looking for, earnestly desiring and preparing for the day of the Lord.

Why should Christians be doing these things if they had been secretly raptured,previously,to be with the Lord?

If many had asked this question then the secret rapture before tribulation, deception, would not have the popular following it has today and many things in the book of Revelation,instead of being only the concern of persons "left in the tribulation", would be seen as the concern of the Church which will experience those things written therein, ie.,the Church will still be around.



To be continued,

safswan.

keras said:

No. They received the holy Spirit at Pentecost. But now, it seems to have departed from most Churchs, because of their wrong doctrines and false teachings.

Jesus said: I will be with you always, until the end of the age. Matthew 28:19-20
Christians have testified to Jesus and still do so. Don't you?

As for those who promote the pre-trib 'rapture', they are locked into it and no amount of scriptural proof refuting the fable of people going to live in heaven, will change their minds.
This is how God wants it; the great test that will come upon everyone will be a shocking surprise and many will denounce God for not doing what they wanted Him to do.

Click to expand...

I was raised old school traditional Protestantism.. I was floored when the rapture and futurism showed up in the 1970s.

How Did This Grave Misunderstanding Come About?


As the signs of the coming world system are becoming more evident,the preaching of the secret rapture theory becomes more fervent as people are told to hurry up and get saved,so they will be raptured, before the effects of the world system(the beast) is felt.Herein lies the root of the deception;--escapism--- as Christians seek to escape not only from the trouble this system will cause them, but also escape they themselves being identified as being part and parcel of that system at this time.All this is aided by a lack of understanding of the scriptures which would cause the secret rapture theory to be exposed as a deception.


Jesus, in instructing His disciples on what to expect in the days after His ascension,spoke extensively about His second coming.These admonitions were recorded in;Matthew 24:3-51;Mark 13:1-37;Luke 21:6-36;and they show clearly,it is after tribulations, afflictions and perplexities,that Christ comes for His elect.[Matthew 24:29-31;Mark 13:24-27;Luke 21:25-31]


With such clear instructions it is amazing how any one could formulate a teaching about a tribulation after a secret rapture of the saints.It should be noted that the warnings given by the Lord in Mark 13:33-36;Matthew 24:42-51;Luke 21:34-36;are echoed by Paul as he speaks to the saints at Thessalonica.They both encourage the saints to watch and be sober as the Lord will come as a thief in the night.[I Thessalonians 5:2-6] While many accept that the accounts given in the gospels speak of the Lord Jesus coming for His Church,others say the elect spoken of in these passages is not the elect of the Church but the elect of Israel.No one has been able to prove this from the scriptures and several areas of contradiction arise.(The studies,Matthew 24 and More on Matthew 24,to come later,gives further insight)


Why did Jesus not speak of the secret rapture of the Church to these men who are to be the foundation of the Church?


How could He leave out this important event which would occur before He comes for the "elect of Israel" and yet still mention His coming for Israel? N.B.Jesus had already introduced the concept of the Church to His disciples but had said the house of Israel was left desolate.[Matthew 16:18,19;18:15-17;23:37-39:Ephesians 2:19,20]


The fallacy of this argument is evident and should have put to rest any thought of a rapture,before tribulation theory,but other misunderstood scriptures are used to perpetuate this myth.


One of the main supporting reasons given,to sustain the secret rapture before tribulation theory,is that,because Christians are not appointed to wrath but to salvation,then,they have to be taken from the world before tribulation begins.


"For God hath not appointed us to wrath,but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."[I Thessalonians 5:9;Luke 21:36]


One of the promises to the Church in Philadelphia also speaks of then being kept from the hour of temptation to come upon all the world.[Revelation 3:10:See also Romans 2:7-9]


This type of reasoning puts into question God's ability to protect,if Christians have to be taken from the world in order to be protected from tribulations(temptations),perplexities and distress.This is not supported by the scriptures.Jesus asked:


"I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world,but that Thou shouldest keep them from the evil."[John 17;15]


The apostle Paul added:


"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man....,but will with the temptation also make a way to escape,that ye may bear it."[I Corinthians 10:13;See also,II Thessalonians 3:3;Matthew 6:13;26:41;II Peter 2:9]


The promise of the Lord therefore is to keep us in the world but away from evil and to strengthen us to bear temptations,(tribulations) not for us to escape from the world in order to escape these things.Hence to be kept from the hour of temptation is to be enabled by God to bear it.To use the promise to the Church at Philadelphia as a support for a rapture before tribulation is misleading as this promise was made to a Church in Asia in the first century.Also the Church at Smyrna was told to expect tribulation.[See, Revelation 2:9,10]


The reason the Church at Philadelphia was singled out is because of the theory that the 7 Churches in Revelation refer to 7 historical stages in the Church's existence up to the coming of Christ.The Church of Philadelphia was thought to have existed in the 1800s and hence some persons taught that this was the time that the Church would be raptured.One writer of the time asserted that the Lord Himself is on the very eve of coming and that He should be expected every moment.Obviously this expected,imminent return of the Lord did not occur and apparently it was not even considered that,in putting forward such a theory,the Laodicean Church would have been left out of the rapture. It is theorised that we are now in the Laodicean stage by many who support the Church age theory and hence either the rapture has already occurred or the use of the promise to the Church at Philadelphia to support the Rapture/tribulation theory is totally out of line and was/is misleading.

The power of God to protect His people in any situation is clearly established in the scriptures and to ascribe to this reason of protection as a supporting argument for the Church to be secretly raptured before tribulations,perplexities and distress is denigrating to the power of God.The experiences of Israel in Egypt and Daniel and his colleagues in Babylon are legendary and shows how great God is at protecting His people.[See,Exodus 8:22,23;9:4,25,26;10:21-23;12:12,13;Daniel 3:19-28;6:16-24;
Ezekiel 9:1-6;I Peter 4:17;Revelation 7:1-3]


The Psalms which many use to call upon God for protection are looking forward to the times of trouble which will come upon the earth.


"A thousand shall fall at thy side,and ten thousand at thy right hand;but it shall not come nigh thee....there shall no evil befall thee,neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.For He shall give His angels charge over thee,to keep thee in all thy ways."[Psalm 91:7,10,11;See,Psalm 91:7-16;46:1-11;Luke 21:25,26;Revelation 6:12-17]


N.B. The wrath spoken of, that is not for Christians,speak of the judgements of God and are not to be equated with tribulations.[See,II Thessalonians 1:7-9;Romans 2:8,9;Daniel 12:2;II Peter 2:9-15]


The Scriptures speak of Jesus coming with thousands of His saints,[Jude :14;I Thessalonians 3:13] and because of this, many claim Jesus must have come for His saints before He comes with His saints and hence this is another factor which proves the secret rapture then a 7 or 3 1/2 years tribulation for the world.But it is clear that in coming for His saints and then coming with His saints there is no time period mentioned and in fact it would not take 7 nor 3 1/2 years for the Lord to come with His saints after they had been caught up to meet Him,if the plain teaching about the nature of the Lord's coming is not ignored.The Lord will not come to the earth for the saints ,as they will be caught up into the air to meet Him.


"...and the dead in Christ shall rise first:Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet he Lord in the air;and so shall we ever be with he Lord."[I Thessalonians 4:16,17]


Hence the dead in Christ, when resurrected, will meet the Lord on His journey towards the earth.The saints who are alive will be caught up to meet the Lord and the saints previously caught up.Hence those now being caught up will see the Lord coming with His saints.Those persons who remain on the earth will then also see the Lord coming with all His saints ie., He; "..cometh with ten thousand of His saints to execute judgement upon all..."[Jude:14,15]


Hence it is like a father returning home from work.He is me by one of his children 50 metres from home.(dead in christ)Another child runs to meet the father also,(they that are alive) and sees him coming with the first child,(the Lord and His saints) and joins them 40 metres from home.As the father and the two children(the Lord and all His saints) are about to reach home a third child would see them coming as he stands at the door.


It is clear that no tribulation period is needed for this to happen,
and the time between the saints being caught up and their coming with the Lord,is the time taken to journey to the earth, after the saints had met him in the sky.


The book of Revelation speaks clearly of the Lord Jesus' coming and of His bride being prepared to meet Him and also of the call to the marriage supper of the lamb,which represents the Church being called to Christ.[Ephesians 5:22-32;II Corinthians 11:2;
Hosea 2:19,20;Revelation 19:5-16]


Many persons ignore this allusion to the Church being called to meet the Lord and instead point to other passages in which they claim the Church is raptured,apparently straight up to the throne of God,although the scriptures speak of Christ coming for the Church.[I Thessalonians 4:16,17;Matthew 25:1-13;Matthew 22:2-14]


In order to escape the judgements/tribulations described in the book of Revelation,the rapture of the Church is said to take place at the moment John is told to, "come up hither".[Revelation 4:1]The 24 elders in this passage are said to represent the Church.Why would the 24 elders be used to represent the Church, when at another instant, the persons around the throne are numbered according to the amount present?[Revelation 4:1-5;7:9]Could the 24 elders be those who had been previously translated along with those resurrected after the resurrection of Christ?[Hebrews 11:5;II Kings 2:11;Matthew 27:52,53]


However,the apostle John was not actually caught up to heaven, but he was seeing these things in a vision, much in the same manner of Ezekiel, as he had similar visions about the throne of God.[Ezekiel 1:1,26-28;8:1-4;11:1-5;40:2,3;Daniel 8:1,2,27]


"...and the spirit lifted me up between the earth and the heaven,
and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem,to the door of the inner gate that looketh toward the north..."[Ezekiel 8:3]


It is not even considered by those who propose this theory that, in Revelation 17:1-3 John is told to come hither again, and is brought into the wilderness.Does this mean John (or the Church) was de-raptured?


The major reason, however, why this theory is not sustained by the book of Revelation,is because if this should be true, then the entire aim of the book would have been defeated.John told us the book was:


"The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto Him to show His servants things which must shortly come to pass:...blessed is he that readeth and they that hear the words of this prophecy,and keep those things which are written therein:for the time is at hand."[Revelation 1:1-3]


This book is for the Church,not for the world and hence if the Church is raptured before the fullness of the prophecy has begun;then for what purpose was it given?Some may say it is only the messages to the 7 Churches which is relevant to Christians,but the angel of God ensured that we do not come to a wrong conclusion,as at the end of the book he said:


"...These sayings are faithful and true.And the Lord God of the holy prophets sent His angel to shew unto His servants the things which must shortly be done.Behold I come quickly:
Blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book."[Revelation 22:6,7]


The Lord himself supports the angel:


"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the Churches..."[Revelation 22:16]


Not just a portion of the book pertains to Christians,but all,and hence those who ignore certain portions of the book and say they pertain to Israel, or to some time after the "Church age",do so at their own peril.


To be continued,

safswan.

Should Christians Be Looking For Christ or Anti-christ?


Certainly the Christians hope is in Christ but we have been constantly warned to look for false prophets and false christs.[Titus 2:13;I Thessalonians 2:19;Matthew 24:23-26]


Anti-christ - Against Christ,Instead of Christ,enemy of Christ.
Anti - opposite,against,in exchange.


Hence to be anti-christ covers all the ares in which one may be engaged as described by the definitions above,these include:


i) Persons who try to make it appear as if they have fulfilled the promise of Christ's second coming.

ii) Persons who teach things which would nullify the effect of Christ's redemptive work.

iii) Persons who directly oppose the lordship of Christ and would want to do things contrary to Christ's teaching.

[See, Matthew 24:23-26;I John 2:22;4:3;Psalm 2:1-12;II John:7]


The apostle John told us we have been warned:


"Little children it is the last time and as ye have heard that anti-christ shall come;even now are there many anti-christs;whereby we know that it is the last time."[I John 2:18]


"...and this is that spirit of anti-christ,whereof ye have heard that it should come;and even now already is it in the world."[I John 4:3]


Why would John be warning Christians about anti-christ,and say it is in the world,if this was not something which Christians should take into consideration even as they(anti-christs) pervert the truth about God and Christ?[I John 2:19-28;4:1-6]


The final major anti-christ is the man of sin who will be destroyed at the coming of the Lord.The mystery of iniquity(error falsehood,
wickedness,lawlessness) is now working,as it was in the time of the apostles,to lead up to the time of his appearance,and many
will be deceived by him,as they are taught not to look for
antichrist.[II Thessalonians 2:3-12]


There are many scriptures which describe the coming of the Lord and if carefully examined they clearly show that it is at the time when Christ comes to judge the world that He will call the saints (the Church) unto Him.Various terms are used to describe this occasion and this results in some confusion about the event.
Paul asked the Philippians to be without offence on the day of Christ.


"That ye may approve things excellent;that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ."[Philippians 1:10;2:16]

John told Christians to whom he was writing,that their love is being made perfect for the day of judgement(not for a secret rapture before the day of judgement).


"Herein is our love made perfect,that we may have boldness in the day of judgement:because as He is,so are we in this world."[I John 4:17]

Peter says Christians should be looking for and hasting ie., earnestly desiring,the day of the Lord or the day of God,and he also asks Christians to be without spot and blameless,ie., also without offense,perfect.


"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;in the which the heavens shall pass away with great noise....seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved,what manner of persons ought ye be in all holy conversation and godliness,looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God,wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved....,wherefore beloved seeing that ye look for such things,be diligent that ye may be found of Him in peace,without spot blameless."[II Peter 3:10-14;see also,Mark 13:24-27;Matthew 24:29,30,43;I Thessalonians 5:1-4;3:12,13.]


From the above it is clear that Christians were being told to look for the day of the Lord when the world is to be judged and when they will be called to be in the presence of Christ.If Christians were to be raptured 3 1/2 to 7 years before this day,they would not have been warned about these things nor told to prepare for it.


Paul also told Timothy to keep the commands given to him until the appearing(not secret rapture) of the Lord.[I Timothy 6:14,15]


He also called it,that day,and he also hopes a Christian who had
been good to him will find mercy in that day.[II Timothy 1:12,18]


It is when the Lord is revealed from heaven in His glory that He will punish those who trouble the Christian,and also give the Christian relief from his tribulation,not in a secret rapture.


"And to you who are troubled rest with us,when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God..."[II Thessalonians 1:4-12;see also,I Peter 4:12-19]


From the preceding scriptures it is clear that the time of the gathering of the Church to Christ and the judgement of the world is called;that day,the day of Christ,the day of the Lord,the day of God,the day of judgement.


To be continued,

safswan.

The preceding arguments were necessary to prove that, the theory of a secret rapture, followed by a period of tribulation, is not sustained by the scriptures,neither is the theory of a brief appearing.

The apostle Paul however, gives a simple and clear account of the Lord's coming and the gathering of the saints, which if properly understood, would have made the preceding discourse unnecessary.


Christians in Thessalonica had become worried that those who had died would miss the coming of the Lord. Paul wrote to them and assured them this would not be so. The dead saints would not miss the coming of the Lord. He told them:


".. .For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him... for the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..." [I Thessalonians 4:13-18].


Paul did not know the time of the Lord's coming and said it would be as a thief in the night;


"But of the times and seasons, brethren ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." [I Thessalonians 5:1-3; See also Matthew 24: 36, 37].


He emphasized however that Christians would not be surprised by the coming of the Lord as they should be watching and also be sober. (i.e. Be prepared).


"But ye brethren are not in darkness, that, that day should overtake you as a thief... but let us watch and be sober." [I Thessalonians 5: 4-6].


His final encouragement is for the saints to continue to live according to the will of God as they await the day of the Lord.


".. .But let us who are of the day, be sober... that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." [I Thessalonians 5: 7-10].


Based on this teaching and probably statements by other persons, the Christians of Thessalonica apparently thought the coming of the Lord was imminent. Paul had to write to them again to reassure them that this was not so as certain things had to happen before the Lord returns for his people.


"Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us as that the day of Christ is at hand." [II Thessalonians 2:1,2]
　

by - regarding,in accordance with
at hand - near, close by, imminent,impend.

Paul then gave them, in accordance with (by) the coming of the Lord, the truth about things which will precede the Lord's coming.



What was to happen before the day of the Lord, day
of Christ, i.e. the return of the Lord Jesus for the
Saints and to judge the world?



"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" [II Thessalonians 2: 3].


Has the falling away taken place? Yes!!
Has the man of sin been revealed? No!!


Hence to preach and teach that the Lord could come for his saints at anytime now i.e. before the man of sin has been revealed, is exactly the problem Paul is addressing here and he says clearly that the Lord will not come for his saints before the man of sin is revealed. We should not be found guilty of carrying on this deception which Paul is trying to counter.
　


What Is the falling away about?



To fall away is defined as: to desert, to revolt, decay, vanish.

As Gentiles entered the Church of God and gained ascendancy, many deserted from and revolted against the teachings of the Jewish foundation of the Church and instead instituted their heathen customs which many today accept as true Christianity. The Apostle Paul saw that this would and was happening to the Church even as was predicted by the Lord Jesus, the Prophets
and other Apostles[See,Hebrews 6:4-6]


"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock." [Acts 20: 29].

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...!" [II Thessalonians 2:7].

　


iniquity - perverseness, error, wickedness,violation of law.
[See Matthew 24: 4, 5,11; Daniel 7: 25; II Peter 2:1-3].


Who is the man of sin who goes to perdition? This is the ultimate Antichrist or beast who is destroyed when the Lord comes. He will be in control of the final world ruling Kingdom. [See I John 2:18; Revelation 19:11-16,19-21].


perdition - damnation or utter ruin
　

"Only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, who the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and destroy with the brightness of his coming." [II Thessalonians 2: 7-10; (N.B. Revelation 16: 13,14; 19: 20)].


N.B. let - hinder or obstruct


It is not the Church or the Holy Spirit associated with the Church which is hindering the man of sin from coming to the fore but he is being hindered by an angel even as angels have hindered persons and situations before. [See Revelation 7:1; 20:1, 2; Daniel 10:10-14, 20, 21].


When this angel is removed then the world ruling kingdom will be set up (new world order) and then the man of sin will be revealed.
　

All secret rapture/preceding tribulation believers are in danger of being caught up in the system of the man of sin rather than be caught up with the Lord Jesus, as:


"God shall send them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." [II Thessalonians 2:10-12].


Those who have not been deceived by the various false religious groups present in the world can look forward to the coming of the only Savior of the world as he receives His saints and judges the world.


"Thou didst cause judgement to be heard from Heaven, the earth feared and was still, when God arose to judgement, to save all the meek of the earth." [Psalm 76: 8, 9].

[See also Zephaniah 2: 2-4; Isaiah 26:17-21].


"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." [Matthew 5: 4].
　

safswan.

safswan said:

The Real Rapture - 4


What Really Happens and When.​

The preceding arguments were necessary to prove that, the theory of a secret rapture, followed by a period of tribulation, is not sustained by the scriptures,neither is the theory of a brief appearing.

The apostle Paul however, gives a simple and clear account of the Lord's coming and the gathering of the saints, which if properly understood, would have made the preceding discourse unnecessary.


Christians in Thessalonica had become worried that those who had died would miss the coming of the Lord. Paul wrote to them and assured them this would not be so. The dead saints would not miss the coming of the Lord. He told them:


".. .For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him... for the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..." [I Thessalonians 4:13-18].


Paul did not know the time of the Lord's coming and said it would be as a thief in the night;


"But of the times and seasons, brethren ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." [I Thessalonians 5:1-3; See also Matthew 24: 36, 37].


He emphasized however that Christians would not be surprised by the coming of the Lord as they should be watching and also be sober. (i.e. Be prepared).


"But ye brethren are not in darkness, that, that day should overtake you as a thief... but let us watch and be sober." [I Thessalonians 5: 4-6].


His final encouragement is for the saints to continue to live according to the will of God as they await the day of the Lord.


".. .But let us who are of the day, be sober... that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." [I Thessalonians 5: 7-10].


Based on this teaching and probably statements by other persons, the Christians of Thessalonica apparently thought the coming of the Lord was imminent. Paul had to write to them again to reassure them that this was not so as certain things had to happen before the Lord returns for his people.


"Now we beseech you brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us as that the day of Christ is at hand." [II Thessalonians 2:1,2]
　

by - regarding,in accordance with
at hand - near, close by, imminent,impend.

Paul then gave them, in accordance with (by) the coming of the Lord, the truth about things which will precede the Lord's coming.



What was to happen before the day of the Lord, day
of Christ, i.e. the return of the Lord Jesus for the
Saints and to judge the world?



"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" [II Thessalonians 2: 3].


Has the falling away taken place? Yes!!
Has the man of sin been revealed? No!!


Hence to preach and teach that the Lord could come for his saints at anytime now i.e. before the man of sin has been revealed, is exactly the problem Paul is addressing here and he says clearly that the Lord will not come for his saints before the man of sin is revealed. We should not be found guilty of carrying on this deception which Paul is trying to counter.
　


What Is the falling away about?



To fall away is defined as: to desert, to revolt, decay, vanish.

As Gentiles entered the Church of God and gained ascendancy, many deserted from and revolted against the teachings of the Jewish foundation of the Church and instead instituted their heathen customs which many today accept as true Christianity. The Apostle Paul saw that this would and was happening to the Church even as was predicted by the Lord Jesus, the Prophets
and other Apostles[See,Hebrews 6:4-6]


"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock." [Acts 20: 29].

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work...!" [II Thessalonians 2:7].

　


iniquity - perverseness, error, wickedness,violation of law.
[See Matthew 24: 4, 5,11; Daniel 7: 25; II Peter 2:1-3].


Who is the man of sin who goes to perdition? This is the ultimate Antichrist or beast who is destroyed when the Lord comes. He will be in control of the final world ruling Kingdom. [See I John 2:18; Revelation 19:11-16,19-21].


perdition - damnation or utter ruin
　

"Only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked be revealed, who the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth and destroy with the brightness of his coming." [II Thessalonians 2: 7-10; (N.B. Revelation 16: 13,14; 19: 20)].


N.B. let - hinder or obstruct


It is not the Church or the Holy Spirit associated with the Church which is hindering the man of sin from coming to the fore but he is being hindered by an angel even as angels have hindered persons and situations before. [See Revelation 7:1; 20:1, 2; Daniel 10:10-14, 20, 21].


When this angel is removed then the world ruling kingdom will be set up (new world order) and then the man of sin will be revealed.
　

All secret rapture/preceding tribulation believers are in danger of being caught up in the system of the man of sin rather than be caught up with the Lord Jesus, as:


"God shall send them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." [II Thessalonians 2:10-12].


Those who have not been deceived by the various false religious groups present in the world can look forward to the coming of the only Savior of the world as he receives His saints and judges the world.


"Thou didst cause judgement to be heard from Heaven, the earth feared and was still, when God arose to judgement, to save all the meek of the earth." [Psalm 76: 8, 9].

[See also Zephaniah 2: 2-4; Isaiah 26:17-21].


"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." [Matthew 5: 4].
　

safswan.

Click to expand...

That's it... Thanks.

Christians in Thessalonica had become worried that those who had died would miss the coming of the Lord. Paul wrote to them and assured them this would not be so. The dead saints would not miss the coming of the Lord. He told them:


".. .For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him... for the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."