IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

Kermos · Mar 15, 2020

In linguistics, logic, semantics, and reality the established fact is that an IF/THEN construct follows this pattern:

if condition then predicate

The condition results in a true state or false state. If, and only if, the condition results in a true state does the predicate get executed.

An IF-THEN construct merely exposes whether a condition is true or false; consequently, an if/then statement does not inherently convey ability to produce a true state for the condition.

So, an IF-THEN construct imposes a conditionl expression and a predicate, for example, IF ACTION THEN RESULT; moreover, no conveyance of ability exists intrinsically within the if-then construct.

In language, an IF/THEN statement requires a qualifier to indicate choice, for example, "if you choose chocolate then you eat chocolate" thus the qualifier in the conditional is "choose", but the conditional still does not convey ability to "choose" which such conveyance of ability to "choose" necessitates additional language connected with the IF-THEN statement, such as "you have the ability to choose" since the predicate cannot be executed in the absence of a supply of chocolate.

In Scripture, "you have the ability to choose God" is never expressed nor implied, yet, on the contrary to such a statement of "choose", the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) with no exceptions to the stated choosing while applying to all believers in all time (John 17:20).

These facts of IF/THEN statements do not disappear in scripture.

@Francis Drake, in your self wlll (2 Peter 2:9-10) you darlingly claim to choose God in direct rejection of the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19), but in reality you fail in your fight against the Word of God. You cannot win, Francis Drake, not on your own - and you claim to win on your own by your work of a choice yet man is not saved by works rather we sheep of Jesus are saved by God's grace by the gift of God which is faith/belief (Ephesians 2:8-10).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Kermos · Mar 15, 2020

Francis Drake said:
Since when does a decision always need to have the word choice" written into it?
Your excuses for denial of the glaringly obvious are truly pathetic.

See The IF/THEN contruct fact of not inherently conveying ability linguistically, logically, semantically, and in reality (post in this thread), and it is factually evident that you try to create a new language that warps IF-THEN statements in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

You keep posting great scriptures, quite edifying but utterly useless in proving your Calvinist heresy.

Of course all men are dead in sin, but if some are without their consent pre-programmed before creation to get saved, then they are also predestined to avoid God's wrath. Such people were never in the slightest danger of damnation from the day they were born, unlike the poor souls your cruel god deliberately creates with pre-programming to burn in hell.

The Potter molds vessels of mercy and vessels of destruction (post in this thread)

You cannot have it both ways. Either Calvinism is a lie, or Ep2v1-5 is a lie. They are mutually exclusive.

You sure are concerned about Calvinism. You need to be concerned with the Word of God.

Paul wrote of the exclusive soveriegnty of God in man's salvation in Ephesians 1:1-5 AND Ephesians 2:1-5.

Nope, I just love blaspheming your revolting false god, an evil tyrant who according to your doctrine deliberately creates men purely to burn in hell for his own pleasure.

In your daring self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you claim to choose God against the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16) with Jesus giving the "choose" no execptions, so you deny being chosen of God for the Word of God says "I chose you" (John 15:16) in what could have been the very same breath. God saves only the chosen of God, and all glory for the saving of any is God's glory and God's glory alone. May Lord Jesus open your heart to His Truth (John 14:6).

That's strange @Kermos, "peace" is the very last word on earth I would identify with you. Maybe anger, rage, hatred, judgementalism etc. but not peace.

Since you deny the Apostle Peter indicates when Jesus says "you" it applies to all believers in all time (post in this thread), then by extension you also deny the "you" application to you Francis Drake in this Word of God "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you" (John 14:26-27).

I am eternally grateful that Lord Jesus give us His sheep, the Helper, His Peace!

You do not understand what peace is.

Did you not know it is the kindness of God that leads people to repentance, and it is God's kindness that melted my heart, not fear of his wrath.

Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), kindly sends His sheep to proclaim His Truth in love. I tell you your state in love, but you do not understand. May God grant you wisdom.

An evil monster deceives people into thinking they can choose God, and an evil false god tries hide the eternal punishment.

To tell the uncoverted that God loves the uncoverted just the way they are is to be an a son of the devil (John 8:44) for the Lord Jesus says "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces" (Matthew 7:6).

I do not want to be party of deceiving the uncoverted.

It is love to convey the Word of God in Truth (John 14:6).

Another great scripture, but useless for your heresy. Do you not read them before posting?

Acts1614And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, worshiping God, was listening....
Lydia was already a worshiper of God before Paul met her, so when she heard Paul speak, the Holy Spirit was already in her heart to gave her witness.
â¦.The Lord opened her heart to attend to the things being spoken by Paul.
This happens to believers all the time, receiving a witness of the Holy Spirit for things we hear. Its called discernment and has nothing to do with the intellect.

Three things about this account recorded in Acts 16:14, Francis Drake.

First, the point of bringing up Lydia, Francis Drake, is this is the ONLY occurrence of the phrase expressing the opening of a heart in the New Testament which is attributed to the Lord, but you flip things around attributing the opening of your heart to yourself in self glorification.

Second, you wrote "the Holy Spirit was already in her heart", so any opening of her heart is a fruit of the Spirit. God is already there with Lydia, Francis Drake.

Third, according to the Greek, Paul wrote "And a-certain woman named Lydia a-seller-of-purple of-[the]-city Thyatira worshiping God was-listening of-whom the Lord opened the heart to-attend to-the-things being-spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14 word for word Greek to English Acts 16:14 Interlinear: and a certain woman, by name Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, worshipping God, was hearing, whose heart the Lord did open to attend to the things spoken by Paul; the "to-attend" also means "to-adhere-to")

Since "worshiping' is present tense and "opened" is past tense, this puts the opening of Lydia's heart before the worshiping.

You have given me not one iota of love, just pride, self righteousness, and judgement.

We sheep of Jesus the Christ humbly point at God as exclusively soveriegn over the salvation of man.

The prideful say "I chose you" to God in pride and arragance against the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

"The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate" (Proverbs 8:13).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Francis Drake · Mar 15, 2020

Kermos said:
In language, an IF/THEN statement requires a qualifier to indicate choice, for example, "if you choose chocolate then you eat chocolate" thus the qualifier in the conditional is "choose", but the conditional still does not convey ability to "choose" which such conveyance of ability to "choose" necessitates additional language connected with the IF-THEN statement, such as "you have the ability to choose" since the predicate cannot be executed in the absence of a supply of chocolate.

This goes against all the normal rules of language, whether scripture, classic literature, technical reports, legal documents, etc.
Only a Calvinist would concoct such garbage in order to conceal the true meaning of straight forward scriptures.
Do you seriously imagine people need to learn your convoluted unnatural rules in order to comprehend what God meant when the scriptures were written?

In making If/Then statements in any context, people invariably presume there is an underlying ability to fulfil the condition.
If that were not the case, an If/Then statement is utterly meaningless.

II Chronicles 7: 14; �IF My people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; THEN will I hear from Heaven and heal their Land.�
There is an unwritten presumption here that the people have free choice to humble themselves or not. Without that freewill, the scripture is a vacuous waste of breath..

Mark 11: 25 & 26�When ye stand praying, forgive, IF ye have anything against anyone, so that your Father also, which is in Heaven (THEN) may forgive you your trespasses.
Again it is presumed that he has free choice to forgive or not forgive, and that is proved by the next half of the scripture-
But IF you do not forgive others, (THEN) neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.�

Ex 19v5 If you obey me, then you shall be my treasured possession”.
If the recipient of this has no power to choose obedience, the scripture has absolutely no purpose in being written!

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said, �IF a man loves me he will keep my words: (THEN) My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our living place with him.�
There are countless scriptures of this nature. I suggest people do a google search under "If/then statements in scripture", as there are many sites that have done the hard work for us already.

What should be obvious from this type of search is that so much of our relationship with God is conditional on our freewill responses.
Throughout scripture we find that God frequently says, (in various forms)
"IF you will, THEN I will"; and also "IF you won't, THEN I won't."

The Lord is seeking relationship in a family friendship basis, not slave and master basis.

@Francis Drake, .........in reality you fail in your fight against the Word of God. You cannot win, Francis Drake, not on your own - and you claim to win on your own by your work of a choice yet man is not saved by works rather we sheep of Jesus are saved by God's grace by the gift of God which is faith/belief (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Nowhere in scripture is choosing obedience to the Lord, classed as works of the flesh. If obedience were "works", why does the Lord constantly ask for it?
I am a sinner, saved by God's grace and mercy. I didn't work for that, I just received what he offered all men.

Kermos · Mar 15, 2020

Not only is your statement "This goes against all the normal rules of language" demonstrate your lack of language understanding and/or education, but in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you try to redefine the tenets of language and logic statements and semantics and REALITY by your false claim that "choose" is inherent in the IF/THEN construct. You try to impose unnatural licentiousness into IF/THEN constructs. You add to scripture with you "unwritten presumptions", and adding to scripture leads to death.

Not one of your examples convey ability. Not one shows includes "choose" God. In your self willed blasphemy against Glory (2 Peter 2:9-10) you try to alter the scripture with your imagined ability to choose toward God in order to accommodate your precepts of men (Matthew 15:9) because God explains that actions/fruit is wrought in man by God with His words of "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

An IF/THEN illuminates a path taken with the path's resultant impact. Choice is not included inherently within IF/THEN statements, and only the lost, self willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) tries ot add "choice" where it does not exist!

A person "choosing toward God" is doing a work.

God says that believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29).

Thus Lord Jesus tells us that belief/faith is a work - A WORK OF GOD.

In your daring self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you claim to choose God against the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16) with Jesus giving the "choose" no execptions, so you deny being chosen of God for the Word of God says "I chose you" (John 15:16) in what could have been the very same breath. God saves only the chosen of God, and all glory for the saving of any is God's glory and God's glory alone. May Lord Jesus open your heart to His Truth (John 14:6).

Francis Drake said:
This goes against all the normal rules of language, whether scripture, classic literature, technical reports, legal documents, etc.
Only a Calvinist would concoct such garbage in order to conceal the true meaning of straight forward scriptures.
Do you seriously imagine people need to learn your convoluted unnatural rules in order to comprehend what God meant when the scriptures were written?

In making If/Then statements in any context, people invariably presume there is an underlying ability to fulfil the condition.
If that were not the case, an If/Then statement is utterly meaningless.

II Chronicles 7: 14; \ufffdIF My people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves, and pray, and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways; THEN will I hear from Heaven and heal their Land.\ufffd
There is an unwritten presumption here that the people have free choice to humble themselves or not. Without that freewill, the scripture is a vacuous waste of breath..

Mark 11: 25 & 26\ufffdWhen ye stand praying, forgive, IF ye have anything against anyone, so that your Father also, which is in Heaven (THEN) may forgive you your trespasses.
Again it is presumed that he has free choice to forgive or not forgive, and that is proved by the next half of the scripture-
But IF you do not forgive others, (THEN) neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.\ufffd

Ex 19v5 If you obey me, then you shall be my treasured possession\u201d.
If the recipient of this has no power to choose obedience, the scripture has absolutely no purpose in being written!

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said, \ufffdIF a man loves me he will keep my words: (THEN) My Father will love him, and We will come to him, and make Our living place with him.\ufffd
There are countless scriptures of this nature. I suggest people do a google search under "If/then statements in scripture", as there are many sites that have done the hard work for us already.

What should be obvious from this type of search is that so much of our relationship with God is conditional on our freewill responses.
Throughout scripture we find that God frequently says, (in various forms)
"IF you will, THEN I will"; and also "IF you won't, THEN I won't."

The Lord is seeking relationship in a family friendship basis, not slave and master basis.

Nowhere in scripture is choosing obedience to the Lord, classed as works of the flesh. If obedience were "works", why does the Lord constantly ask for it?
I am a sinner, saved by God's grace and mercy. I didn't work for that, I just received what he offered all men.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Der Alte · Mar 15, 2020

Kermos said:
...No scripture states that Judas "chose" to betray Jesus.

I did not say that. I have found it helpful to actually read a post before trying to answer.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Are you one of the 12 disciples? The verse you quoted is from a long passage Jesus spoke to His disciples. It begins in chapter 13 and extends through chapter 16. Everything Jesus said is for us but not necessarily to us. If you are going to apply this to yourself how about everything else Jesus said to His disciples such as Matthew 10:5 , Matthew 21:2, Mark 14:13?
Matt 15:16 is a direct address to the disciples. "I chose you [the disciples]" The prayer in Matt is general "those who believe in me" "they." etc.

Francis Drake · Mar 15, 2020

Kermos said:
Not only is your statement "This goes against all the normal rules of language" demonstrate your lack of language understanding and/or education, but in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you try to redefine the tenets of language and logic statements and semantics and REALITY by your false claim that "choose" is inherent in the IF/THEN construct. You try to impose unnatural licentiousness into IF/THEN constructs. You add to scripture with you "unwritten presumptions", and adding to scripture leads to death.
Not one of your examples convey ability. Not one shows includes "choose" God. In your self willed blasphemy against Glory (2 Peter 2:9-10) you try to alter the scripture with your imagined ability to choose toward God in order to accommodate your precepts of men (Matthew 15:9) because God explains that actions/fruit is wrought in man by God with His words of "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21).

An IF/THEN illuminates a path taken with the path's resultant impact. Choice is not included inherently within IF/THEN statements, and only the lost, self willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) tries ot add "choice" where it does not exist!

A person "choosing toward God" is doing a work.

God says that believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29).

Thus Lord Jesus tells us that belief/faith is a work - A WORK OF GOD.

In your daring self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you claim to choose God against the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16) with Jesus giving the "choose" no execptions, so you deny being chosen of God for the Word of God says "I chose you" (John 15:16) in what could have been the very same breath. God saves only the chosen of God, and all glory for the saving of any is God's glory and God's glory alone. May Lord Jesus open your heart to His Truth (John 14:6).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

I strongly recommend people read the above post slowly, along with the previous posts, and see whether the shear weight of copy and paste paragraphs proves anything is true or not.
At the end of the day, don't take my or Kermos's intellect, seek discernment from the Holy Spirit to know what the truth is.

But what does Jesus say about the human will.
Matt18v1At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
So what's the answer?
3and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you turn around and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
The language is very simple and straight forward. "Unless you turn around" puts the onus entirely on us to do the turning or repenting.
It doesn't say God turns us, or makes us turn. That would require additional words.
4Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Again, "whoever humbles himself" puts the onus on us to do the humbling,
Its not about intellectual knowledge, even biblical knowledge, its about us turning around and humbling ourselves before our creator.
And humbling is something we must choose for ourselves. God cannot to it for us.

Kermos · Mar 16, 2020

Der Alter said:
I did not say that. I have found it helpful to actually read a post before trying to answer.

Are you one of the 12 disciples? The verse you quoted is from a long passage Jesus spoke to His disciples. It begins in chapter 13 and extends through chapter 16. Everything Jesus said is for us but not necessarily to us. If you are going to apply this to yourself how about everything else Jesus said to His disciples such as Matthew 10:5 , Matthew 21:2, Mark 14:13?
Matt 15:16 is a direct address to the disciples. "I chose you [the disciples]" The prayer in Matt is general "those who believe in me" "they." etc.

You wrote "but Judas chose to betray Jesus, in stead of holding fast etc" (your post #597 in this thread), so you DID write that Judas chose to betray Jesus, and I am telling you that no scripture states that Judas "chose" to betray Jesus; therefore, your words of "Judas chose to betray Jesus" are unscriptural. Your words are out of accord with the Bible.

Regardng Matthew 10:5, Lord Jesus now commands us His disciples to go make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:18-20) - a command unto beautiful fruit (John 15:16).

Regarding Matthew 21:12 and Mark 14:13, we His disciples proclaim the Risen King Jesus to the lost and unsaved (Matthew 28:18-20) - such generosity and kindness and love that the King would include us His sheep in the proclamation of the King of Glory!

There were 11 apostles with Jesus when He said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which includes salvation and He intensfies what He said with possibly the same breath "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

There were not 12 apostles in the room - Judas left as recorded in John 13:30.

There were more than 12 people present, Der Alter, so please see Five independent scriptural avenues that all arrive at the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) refers to all believers in all time (post in this thread)

The Apostle Peter indicates when Jesus says "you" it applies to all believers in all time (post in this thread)

It appears to me that you presumptuosly add words to the Word of God with your words "[the disciples]" in an attempt to limit the fullness of the Word of God when you typed "I chose you [the disciples]", but you referenced Matthew 15:16 instead of John 15:16, Der Alter, which could very well apply to yourself! "Jesus said, 'Are you still lacking in understanding also?'" (Matthew 15:16).

Returning to "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) for which there is no exceptions provided. Jesus did not limit His words with "[the disciples]" as you did. Lord Jesus includes salvation for He intensifies the His exclusive choosing with "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

The prayer in John 17 includes the words "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and Lord Jesus says "believe" - and Lord Jesus defines this "believe" when He says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God. No mention of choice by man with respect to belief.

Lord Jesus also prays "believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20). The Apostle John recorded the words of Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) since it does not include ANY EXCEPTIONS this means salvation and sanctification are included with no choosing by we His disciples, His sheep, His friends (John 15:15 which could be the very same breath by which He spoke the words in John 15:16).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Kermos · Mar 16, 2020

Francis Drake said:
I strongly recommend people read the above post slowly, along with the previous posts, and see whether the shear weight of copy and paste paragraphs proves anything is true or not.
At the end of the day, don't take my or Kermos's intellect, seek discernment from the Holy Spirit to know what the truth is.

But what does Jesus say about the human will.
Matt18v1At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, âWho then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?â
2Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them,
So what's the answer?
3and said, âAssuredly, I say to you, unless you turn around and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
The language is very simple and straight forward. "Unless you turn around" puts the onus entirely on us to do the turning or repenting.
It doesn't say God turns us, or makes us turn. That would require additional words.
4Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
Again, "whoever humbles himself" puts the onus on us to do the humbling,
Its not about intellectual knowledge, even biblical knowledge, its about us turning around and humbling ourselves before our creator.
And humbling is something we must choose for ourselves. God cannot to it for us.

1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,
3 and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
(Matthew 18:1-4)

Behold, Lord Jesus says "unless you are converted and become like children" which is a direct reference to "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3, see also John 3:4-8).

Jesus indicates that one must be born again in Matthew 18:3.

He even says "converted" which equates to "born again"/"born from above". He refers to "the kingdom" in both Matthew 18:3 and John 3:3.

After one is born again by God's choosing - for a person certainly cannot cause himself or herself to be born again - then such a one has fruit of the Spirit which includes being humble (Matthew 18:4) - humility being fruit - for Lord Jesus says "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5).

Beware of false prophets that proclaim a person must "choose" to do the work of God - the false prophets that try to steal the glory of God in man's salvation and sanctification (Matthew 7:15-27).

In Matthew 18:1-4, Lord Jesus never says "choose" God, but Francis Drake really tries to twist words for man chooseing God into the passage.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Der Alte · Mar 16, 2020

Kermos said:
You wrote "but Judas chose to betray Jesus, in stead of holding fast etc" (your post #597 in this thread), so you DID write that Judas chose to betray Jesus, and I am telling you that no scripture states that Judas "chose" to betray Jesus; therefore, your words of "Judas chose to betray Jesus" are unscriptural. Your words are out of accord with the Bible.
Regardng Matthew 10:5, Lord Jesus now commands us His disciples to go make disciples of all nations (Matthew 28:18-20) - a command unto beautiful fruit (John 15:16).
Regarding Matthew 21:12 and Mark 14:13, we His disciples proclaim the Risen King Jesus to the lost and unsaved (Matthew 28:18-20) - such generosity and kindness and love that the King would include us His sheep in the proclamation of the King of Glory!
There were 11 apostles with Jesus when He said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which includes salvation and He intensfies what He said with possibly the same breath "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
There were not 12 apostles in the room - Judas left as recorded in John 13:30.
There were more than 12 people present, Der Alter, so please see Five independent scriptural avenues that all arrive at the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) refers to all believers in all time (post in this thread)
The Apostle Peter indicates when Jesus says "you" it applies to all believers in all time (post in this thread)
It appears to me that you presumptuosly add words to the Word of God with your words "[the disciples]" in an attempt to limit the fullness of the Word of God when you typed "I chose you [the disciples]", but you referenced Matthew 15:16 instead of John 15:16, Der Alter, which could very well apply to yourself! "Jesus said, 'Are you still lacking in understanding also?'" (Matthew 15:16).
Returning to "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) for which there is no exceptions provided. Jesus did not limit His words with "[the disciples]" as you did. Lord Jesus includes salvation for He intensifies the His exclusive choosing with "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).
The prayer in John 17 includes the words "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and Lord Jesus says "believe" - and Lord Jesus defines this "believe" when He says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29); therefore, for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God. No mention of choice by man with respect to belief.
Lord Jesus also prays "believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20). The Apostle John recorded the words of Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) since it does not include ANY EXCEPTIONS this means salvation and sanctification are included with no choosing by we His disciples, His sheep, His friends (John 15:15 which could be the very same breath by which He spoke the words in John 15:16).
There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

If Judas did not make a conscious choice to betray Jesus, the only other option is he was forced to betray Jesus against his will. So which is it amigo? Do you have any scripture that indicates that Judas' betrayal was not a conscious choice on his part?
Nothing in this post or the post you linked to shows conclusively that "I chose you" applies to anyone except the disciples/apostles were were present with Jesus when He said that.
/.....Despite all of your scriptural hocus pocus, the immediate context of Jn 15;16 shows it was spoken only to the disciples present with Jesus.

John 15:14-18
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Francis Drake · Mar 16, 2020

Kermos said:
There were 11 apostles with Jesus when He said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which includes salvation and He intensfies what He said with possibly the same breath "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

There were not 12 apostles in the room - Judas left as recorded in John 13:30.

But when Jesus said the same words earlier on, it is indisputable that he said it to "The Twelve", which included Judas.
John6v70Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil!” 71Now He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot; for he, one of the Twelve, was about to betray Him.

Despite all your Jn15 stuff that you copy and paste into every post, its obvious to a normal reader that the disciples (apart from Judas) were already believing Jews when Jesus first called them.
Why else would they be at John's baptism, other that to commit their lives to God?

The calling set out in both Jn6 and Jn15 is therefore not about salvation, but discipleship of the believing Jews.
Clearly Judas was not a believer, but was included as he was a thief and would be used to betray him.

It appears to me that you presumptuosly add words to the Word of God with your words "[the disciples]" in an attempt to limit the fullness of the Word of God …….

Your constant accusation against other people, in this case @Der Alter for adding words to scripture is pure hypocrisy, given that you freely add non existent words when it suits you. ie Your claim that John 15 is all about "Salvation", a word which does not appear anywhere in that chapter!

Returning to "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) for which there is no exceptions provided. Jesus did not limit His words with "[the disciples]" as you did. Lord Jesus includes salvation for He intensifies the His exclusive choosing with "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19).

You either need to stop your hypocritical accusations of others for "adding words" or stop adding them yourself.
Your choice @Kermos, stop one or stop the other. This is not a choice that God will make for you!

Kermos · Mar 16, 2020

Der Alter said:
If Judas did not make a conscious choice to betray Jesus, the only other option is he was forced to betray Jesus against his will. So which is it amigo? Do you have any scripture that indicates that Judas' betrayal was not a conscious choice on his part?
Nothing in this post or the post you linked to shows conclusively that "I chose you" applies to anyone except the disciples/apostles were were present with Jesus when He said that.
/.....Despite all of your scriptural hocus pocus, the immediate context of Jn 15;16 shows it was spoken only to the disciples present with Jesus.
John 15:14-18
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

You REALLY love to escape the bounds of scripture.

You wrote "but Judas chose to betray Jesus, in stead of holding fast etc" (your post #597 in this thread), but no scripture states that Judas chose to betray Jesus.

You wrote "If Judas did not make a conscious choice to betray Jesus, the only other option is he was forced to betray Jesus against his will", but no scripture states that Judas was forced to betray Jesus against his will".

Scripture includes "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:27-28).

God's hand at work, and God's hand indicates something intimate. Judas is not specifically mentioned, but "the peoples of Israel" are mentioned and Judas was on of the people.

You wrote "Nothing in this post or the post you linked to shows conclusively that "I chose you" applies to anyone except the disciples/apostles were were present with Jesus when He said that", but Lord Jesus prays "believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and the Apostle John recorded words include the words of Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) since it does not include ANY EXCEPTIONS this means salvation and sanctification are included with no choosing by we His disciples, His sheep, His friends (John 15:15 which could be the very same breath by which He spoke the words in John 15:16).

The Apostle Peter indicates when Jesus says "you" it applies to all believers in all time (post in this thread), and the Apostle Peter is very clear.

Both the Apostle John and the Apostle Peter are clear, the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) applies to all believers in all time.

You deny being a friend of Jesus because you deny the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) applies to you, so by extension when Jesus says "I have called you friends" (John 15:15) in the verse preceding the "you" does not apply to you either.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Kermos · Mar 16, 2020

Francis Drake said:
But when Jesus said the same words earlier on, it is indisputable that he said it to "The Twelve", which included Judas.
John6v70Jesus answered them, âDid I not choose you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil!â 71Now He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot; for he, one of the Twelve, was about to betray Him.

Despite all your Jn15 stuff that you copy and paste into every post, its obvious to a normal reader that the disciples (apart from Judas) were already believing Jews when Jesus first called them.
Why else would they be at John's baptism, other that to commit their lives to God?

The calling set out in both Jn6 and Jn15 is therefore not about salvation, but discipleship of the believing Jews.
Clearly Judas was not a believer, but was included as he was a thief and would be used to betray him.

Your constant accusation against other people, in this case @Der Alter for adding words to scripture is pure hypocrisy, given that you freely add non existent words when it suits you. ie Your claim that John 15 is all about "Salvation", a word which does not appear anywhere in that chapter!

You either need to stop your hypocritical accusations of others for "adding words" or stop adding them yourself.
Your choice @Kermos, stop one or stop the other. This is not a choice that God will make for you!

You are trying to subtract from scripture AGAIN.

You wrote "The calling set out in both Jn6 and Jn15 is therefore not about salvation".

You even try to change "chose" to "calling" - these verbs do not represnent the same thing.

John 6 is not John 15. Judas was not there in John 15. Let's focus on John 15 which includes words of Jesus about salvation and sanctification.

Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which includes "out of the world" equals salvation equals eternal life, and He intensfies what He said with possibly the same breath "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which includes NO EXCEPTIONS about Jesus' choosing so salvation is included (see John 15:19). Salvation is included in Lord Jesus' words.

The Apostle Peter indicates when Jesus says "you" it applies to all believers in all time (post in this thread).

You deny being a friend of Jesus because you deny the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) applies to you, so by extension when Jesus says "I have called you friends" (John 15:15) in the verse preceding the "you" does not apply to you either.

By the way, you mention "believing Jews". Lord Jesus defines belief/faith as the work of God when the Word of God says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29). Belief/faith is Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God - not a work of man - the loving work of God!

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Der Alte · Mar 16, 2020

Kermos said:
You REALLY love to escape the bounds of scripture.
You wrote "but Judas chose to betray Jesus, in stead of holding fast etc" (your post #597 in this thread), but no scripture states that Judas chose to betray Jesus.
You wrote "If Judas did not make a conscious choice to betray Jesus, the only other option is he was forced to betray Jesus against his will", but no scripture states that Judas was forced to betray Jesus against his will".
Scripture includes "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:27-28).
God's hand at work, and God's hand indicates something intimate. Judas is not specifically mentioned, but "the peoples of Israel" are mentioned and Judas was on of the people.
You wrote "Nothing in this post or the post you linked to shows conclusively that "I chose you" applies to anyone except the disciples/apostles were were present with Jesus when He said that", but Lord Jesus prays "believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20), and the Apostle John recorded words include the words of Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) since it does not include ANY EXCEPTIONS this means salvation and sanctification are included with no choosing by we His disciples, His sheep, His friends (John 15:15 which could be the very same breath by which He spoke the words in John 15:16).
The Apostle Peter indicates when Jesus says "you" it applies to all believers in all time (post in this thread), and the Apostle Peter is very clear.
Both the Apostle John and the Apostle Peter are clear, the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) applies to all believers in all time.
You deny being a friend of Jesus because you deny the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) applies to you, so by extension when Jesus says "I have called you friends" (John 15:15) in the verse preceding the "you" does not apply to you either.
There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Ignoring my post and repeating the same argument does not make it correct.
Whenever a person does something they make a choice. The word "choose" dos not have to be spoken or written for it to be a choice. I went into a fast food restaurant. I made a choice. I did not say the word 'choose" I simply ordered a sandwich off the menu.
If Judas did not make a conscious choice to betray Jesus, the only other option is he was forced to betray Jesus against his will. So which is it amigo? Do you have any scripture that indicates that Judas' betrayal was not a conscious choice on his part?
Nothing in this post or the post you linked to shows conclusively that "I chose you" applies to anyone except the disciples/apostles were were present with Jesus when He said that.
/.....Despite all of your scriptural hocus pocus, the immediate context of Jn 15;16 shows it was spoken only to the disciples present with Jesus.

John 15:14-18
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

In your proof text Jesus is talking only to the disciples in the room with Him. The "you" of "I chose you" in vs. 16 is the same "you" in vs. 15 "I call you not servants," [present tense] "I have called you friends"[past tense] and vs. 16 "and ordained you" [past tense] Jesus does not begin talking to His disciples then switch to all believers then switch back to His disciples, in the same 2 verses.

Kermos · Mar 17, 2020

Der Alter said:
Ignoring my post and repeating the same argument does not make it correct.
Whenever a person does something they make a choice. The word "choose" dos not have to be spoken or written for it to be a choice. I went into a fast food restaurant. I made a choice. I did not say the word 'choose" I simply ordered a sandwich off the menu.
If Judas did not make a conscious choice to betray Jesus, the only other option is he was forced to betray Jesus against his will. So which is it amigo? Do you have any scripture that indicates that Judas' betrayal was not a conscious choice on his part?
Nothing in this post or the post you linked to shows conclusively that "I chose you" applies to anyone except the disciples/apostles were were present with Jesus when He said that.
/.....Despite all of your scriptural hocus pocus, the immediate context of Jn 15;16 shows it was spoken only to the disciples present with Jesus.
John 15:14-18
14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
In your proof text Jesus is talking only to the disciples in the room with Him. The "you" of "I chose you" in vs. 16 is the same "you" in vs. 15 "I call you not servants," [present tense] "I have called you friends"[past tense] and vs. 16 "and ordained you" [past tense] Jesus does not begin talking to His disciples then switch to all believers then switch back to His disciples, in the same 2 verses.

You ignore and try to nullify the words of the Apostle Peter who indicates when Jesus says "you" it applies to all believers in all time (post in this thread).

I addressed your post, but your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) hates the Word of God, so you make the false accusation that I ignroed your post.

Whenever a person does something such a person engages in action. Action is fruit. Lord Jesus says:

- "The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil [man] out of the evil [treasure] brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart" (Luke 6:45)

- "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:5)

God graciously gives us believers a new heart indwelt by the Spirit of God, and Lord Jesus said "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18); therefore, we believers have God's goodness as the treasure in our hearts! Thus God works good in believers.

Unbelievers, those unconverted self willed people (2 Peter 2:9-10) who daringly claim to choose God in rejection of the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) such self willed persons are unrighteous with God knowing how to keep such people under punishment for the day of judgment (2 Peter 2:9-10).

You STILL try to add to scripture with your words of "If Judas did not make a conscious choice to betray Jesus, the only other option is he was forced to betray Jesus against his will".

No scripture states that Judas made a choice to betray Jesus.

No scripture states that Judas "was forced to betray Jesus against his will".

Scripture includes "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:27-28).

God's hand at work, and God's hand indicates something intimate. Judas is not specifically named like Herod, but "the peoples of Israel" are mentioned and Judas was on of the people.

Your insistance that Judas chose to betray Jesus is you in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) adding to scripture!

The Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) speaks to all Jesus' sheep in all time for thus says Lord Jesus (John 17:20) and the Apostle Peter (post in this thread) and the Apostle John. John recorded the words in John 15:16 thus this is part of John's message that Jesus referred to in John 17:20. You deny the Word of God and Apostolic teaching.

You cited too narrow a band of scripture, so I expand further.

14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.
15 "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
17 "This I command you, that you love one another.
18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before [it hated] you.
19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

The Wonderful Lord Jesus is talking to all His sheep in all time throughout this passage per the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John but most importantly per the Apostle Jesus (Hebrews 3:1) Himself the Word of God (John 1:14)!

The switching of verb tense is irrelevant to the topic, so in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you attempt to illegally constrain the Word of God.

Since you deny the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) applies to you, then by extension the "you" does not apply to you, Der Alter, when Jesus says "I have called you friends" (John 15:15). A friend of Jesus does not reject Lord Jesus' divine declaration of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

May the Lord Jesus raise you from the dead.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Der Alte · Mar 17, 2020

Kermos said:
...You cited too narrow a band of scripture, so I expand further.
14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.
15 "No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you.
16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
17 "This I command you, that you love one another.
18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before [it hated] you.
19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
The Wonderful Lord Jesus is talking to all His sheep in all time throughout this passage per the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John but most importantly per the Apostle Jesus (Hebrews 3:1) Himself the Word of God (John 1:14)!

Nonsense! Quoting a different version does not change anything. There is absolutely no way you can twist this to make it apply to anyone but the disciples/apostles who were present with Jesus when He spoke this.
V s. 15 when did Jesus ever call present days Christian slaves or servants? He didn't!
All scripture is written for us but all scripture was not written to us.

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

When were you ever thrown out of a synagogue?

John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

When was the last time you literally, actually saw Jesus?

Concord1968 · Mar 17, 2020

If I recall correctly, calling into question other poster's salvation was against the site rules. It really needs to be reported, especially when it's happening over and over again.

Kermos · Mar 17, 2020

Der Alter said:
Nonsense! Quoting a different version does not change anything. There is absolutely no way you can twist this to make it apply to anyone but the disciples/apostles who were present with Jesus when He spoke this.
V s. 15 when did Jesus ever call present days Christian slaves or servants? He didn't!
All scripture is written for us but all scripture was not written to us.
John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
When were you ever thrown out of a synagogue?
John 16:16 A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.
When was the last time you literally, actually saw Jesus?

You wrote "There is absolutely no way you can twist this to make it apply to anyone but the disciples/apostles who were present with Jesus when He spoke this", but it is you that attempt to twist/subtract out of scripture that The Apostle Peter indicates when Jesus says "you" it applies to all believers in all time (post in this thread).

It is you that tries to twist/subtract out of scripture the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as speaking to all Jesus' sheep in all time since Lord Jesus says that these words are for we who believe through John's words (John 17:20) and John recorded the words in John 15:16 thus this is part of John's message that Jesus referred to in John 17:20. You deny the Word of God and Apostolic teaching.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Francis Drake · Mar 17, 2020

Kermos said:
You are trying to subtract from scripture AGAIN.

You wrote "The calling set out in both Jn6 and Jn15 is therefore not about salvation".

You even try to change "chose" to "calling" - these verbs do not represnent the same thing.

That's very childish, whether I used calling or choosing, the objective of the sentence is the same, that "salvation" is not found in the passage. Both passages are about discipleship.

John 6 is not John 15. Judas was not there in John 15. Let's focus on John 15 which includes words of Jesus about salvation and sanctification.

Given how you condemn anyone who uses words not found in a verse, this is shear hypocrisy. The word "Salvation" is found nowhere in the whole of Jn15, so everything you claim about that must, by your own rulebook be a total lie. You are adding to scripture.

The Apostle Peter indicates when Jesus says "you" it applies to all believers in all time (post in this thread).

Like when Jesus says, "You are of your father, the devil"?
I pity you if you can't differentiate who Jesus is talking to, it must be very confusing.

You deny being a friend of Jesus because you deny the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) applies to you, so by extension when Jesus says "I have called you friends" (John 15:15) in the verse preceding the "you" does not apply to you either.

Despite all the curses and judgements you heap on me @Kermos, I delight in the Lord. He is my constant companion and my hiding place, day and night.
It amuses me that you rant so confidently against me, that I am no friend of Jesus. How do you know who my friends are?

Have you ever heard the Lord speak to you in words of knowledge, prophecies, visions, dreams etc.
Have you ever heard the Lord urgently warn you about a car crash around the next bend, thus saving your life.
Have you ever had God give you open visions about how to fix engineering machinery.
Have you ever had God given dreams in answer to prayer about work problems.

Have you ever heard God speak telling you which house to buy, and how to buy it when you don't have enough money. (several times)

Have you ever heard God tell you which car to buy and where to find it, exactly the model asked for.

I might not be the Lord's best friend on this planet, that's for him to say, but he sure is my best and closest friend, the lover of my soul.

Kermos · Mar 17, 2020

Francis Drake said:
That's very childish, whether I used calling or choosing, the objective of the sentence is the same, that "salvation" is not found in the passage. Both passages are about discipleship.

Given how you condemn anyone who uses words not found in a verse, this is shear hypocrisy. The word "Salvation" is found nowhere in the whole of Jn15, so everything you claim about that must, by your own rulebook be a total lie. You are adding to scripture.

Like when Jesus says, "You are of your father, the devil"?
I pity you if you can't differentiate who Jesus is talking to, it must be very confusing.

Despite all the curses and judgements you heap on me @Kermos, I delight in the Lord. He is my constant companion and my hiding place, day and night.
It amuses me that you rant so confidently against me, that I am no friend of Jesus. How do you know who my friends are?

Have you ever heard the Lord speak to you in words of knowledge, prophecies, visions, dreams etc.
Have you ever heard the Lord urgently warn you about a car crash around the next bend, thus saving your life.
Have you ever had God give you open visions about how to fix engineering machinery.
Have you ever had God given dreams in answer to prayer about work problems.

Have you ever heard God speak telling you which house to buy, and how to buy it when you don't have enough money. (several times)

Have you ever heard God tell you which car to buy and where to find it, exactly the model asked for.

I might not be the Lord's best friend on this planet, that's for him to say, but he sure is my best and closest friend, the lover of my soul.

I'll take your "childish" assertion as a complement since you mentioned Matthew 18:1-4 previously:

At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And He called a child to Himself and set him before them, and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 18:1-4)

This brings up an important point, Francis Drake, your great deed of choosing is of pride, great pride and arrogance because the free will doctrine indicates that God has no choice but to comply with your choice. That great deed or work of choice that is the dead side of conversion according to the Matthew passage.

With "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil" (John 6:70) Jesus qualifies the "choosing" to be about the 12 apostles.

With "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) Jesus qualifies the "choosing" to be the extraction from the world according to God, and this is called being saved from the wrath of God.

With "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) Jesus provides unlimited meaning to the "choosing"; therefore, it includes salvation and sanctification. The context makes this clear.

Francis Drake, you are quite confused about "you". Lord Jesus says "You are of [your] father the devil" (John 8:44) to unbelievers, not His disciples.

Francis Drake, I know Jesus is not your friend in your current state because you say the "you" in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) does not apply to you so by extension the "you" in Jesus' words of "I have called you friends" (John 15:15) in the previous verse does not apply to you. Your words convey meaning, Francis Drake.

You deny the words of the Apostle Peter who indicates when Jesus says "you" it applies to all believers in all time (post in this thread)

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Kermos · Mar 17, 2020

God is our believer's merciful Benefactor!

We believers are unworthy beneficiaries.

Our gracious Benefactor produces divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God

Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek pistis Strongs 4102) and believe (Greek pisteuo Strongs 4100)

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God

Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says

"he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is by/of/through God

Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is by/of/through God

All aspects of the saving of man are God's merciful acts. God does it ALL! Praise Jesus!

IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Returning adventurer.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Returning adventurer.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Returning adventurer.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

LCMS Lutheran

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Returning adventurer.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

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