Is the Rapture biblical?

iamlamad said:

My friend! Every time you post, we see more lack of understanding. You really need to study more before posting again.

Revelation 19:17-18 is climactic This is false! It is the battle of Armageddon. It is NOT THE WHOLE WORLD! Did you not read at the 6th vial where the devil sent out demons to bring in the armies of the world. Mostly those who die will be military. It is war. The whole world will not fit into the valley of Megiddo.

Did you overlook this? "I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army." It is a military battle, but Jesus wins. Everyone does not die. If they did, where in the world will God find the goats for the sheep and goat judgment? You have never answered this for several posts now.

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great [that have been drawn by Satan to the battle.) "I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse"

My friend, you cannot form doctrine from one single verse. you have to take 5 above in light of "I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse"

A Jewish boy that went to heaven and came back said that 70 nations gathered against Israel. That does not mean every human in 70 nations. It means the ARMIES of 70 nations. You amaze me.

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You do not seem to get the fact that Revelation is describing a spiritual conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. We have moved a long time ago from the old covenant to the new covenant. We have moved from the physical to the spiritual, from the temporal to the eternal, from the earthly to the heavenly, from the visible to the invisible.

Men are either on one side or the other. Men are either in the army of God or in the beast’s army - controlled by Satan. God's army on earth and God's army in heaven are spiritually one. When Jesus comes Christ unifies the whole army. What is left on earth is the wicked (or the beast's army). He destroys all them, resurrects them and judges all together. He then sets up the eternal state on the new heavens and new earth.

We know from repeated Scripture there are only two peoples on the earth – those whose names are written in the book of life (the redeemed Church throughout time) and those whose names are not written in the book of life (the Christ-rejecting world). Those that withhold their veneration of this evil beast are assuredly the elect of God – those chosen from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3-6, 11, Titus 1:1-2, II Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9). The beast’s disciples include everyone else – that great number of Christ-rejecters on the broad road to destruction “whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

Revelation 17:8 teaches, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder (thaumazo or admire or marvel), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast.”

This text makes clear that the beast attracts the affections of all the non-elect. All “that dwell on the earth” admire or marvel at the beast “whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.” The language here is pretty water-tight.

This passage again only recognizes 2 peoples: those who are in the Book of life that are shown to be the only ones that don’t admire the beast, and those who aren’t in the book of life and who consequently reverence the beast.

Remarkably, the sum total of those “that dwell on the earth ... whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” shall admire and marvel “when they behold the beast.” They look with awe and amazement at him. They give their allegiance to this fiend. They esteem the incredible power and influence of this evil entity. The beast’s followers are therefore the sum total of the wicked. The beast holds the affection of all the unregenerate. We know the ungodly are besotted by this wicked influence because of the wording of Holy Writ. The beast gains the hearts and minds of the Christ-rejecter.

This can only refer to the full amount of those among the wicked that stubbornly refuse to bow their knee to Christ in this current life. It is they that are beguiled by the subtle prompting of the beast and are shown to have no time for the things of God. The awful consequence of this delusion is that they have no part or portion “in the book of life” which is said to be written in eternity – “from the foundation of the world.”

Revelation 13:16-17 underpins the all-encompassing nature of the beast’s army, saying, “he (the false prophet) causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

Everyone on earth that is not written in the book of life is required to submit to the beast’s authority. When we look at the detailed description of the beast in Revelation (including his image and his mark), we can see that the apocalypse very clearly distinguishes between those who take the mark of the beast and those who don't.

The people in the beast kingdom are those whose names are not written in the book of life. They worship the beast and are part of the beast kingdom. Revelation 20:15 confirms the fate of all those who are not in the book of life, saying, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Revelation 14:9-11 says, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Beast’s subjects = those excluded from the book of life = those that are eternally damned to “the lake of fire.”
Christ’s subjects = those included in the book of life = those that are eternally saved from “the lake of fire.”

Scripture after Scripture (referring to the beast) makes clear that men either have the mark and worship the beast and his image or else they refuse any association with him / it. It is that simple. Those who have the mark of the beast are lost and will be thrown into the lake of fire at the Judgment. Those who do not have the mark of the beast have the seal of God (Holy Spirit) and are saved and reign with Christ spiritually even now in heavenly places (Ephesians 1:3, 2:6, Hebrews 12:22-23 and Revelation 20:4) and will inherit eternal life in the new heavens and new earth.

1. There is no mention of Megiddo in Revelation 19, as you suggest.
2. There are only 2 peoples in this world - saved and lost. The saved belong to the Lord's army the wicked belong to the beast's.

I believe Revelation 19 completes the 6th of 7 parallels in Revelation that describe the intra-Advent and conclude with the climactic return of Christ. After “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7), which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked. John sees “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True … And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (11-14).

The beast's army is totally destroyed in Revelation 19. There are no wicked to inherit the millennium, as Premil contends. They are wiped. Everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” He destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth. He then “treadeth (or tramples) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath, indignation and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

The picture being portrayed here is that of the grapes being crushed by the vineyard worker making wine. The reference to “the winepress” is symbolic language denoting the fate of the wicked when Christ appears – that is why it is called “the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” The Christ-rejecter misses the catching away, and is consequently trampled underfoot like grapes being crushed in a winepress. The grapes are the disobedient of all nations.

How can these rebels possibly escape such a furious end? True judgment and righteousness has now arrived in the form of Christ and the glorified saints. Like every other Second Coming passage, this is climactic language describing the final end of rebellious man.

summerville said:

You can invent anything as a futurist and change your prophecies with changing geopolitics. The possibilities are endless. Once the beast was the USSR now its the UN or the EU. Once the antiChrist was JFK or the Pope.

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Add Mussolini, Hitler, Prince Charles, and Obama, etc, etc to the list. Many of us got dizzy on that round-about and jumped off. Y2K was also a Futurists bonanza. But it ended up backfiring on them, causing many to question the whole charade.

iamlamad said:

Finally you have written something I can agree with, mostly. Good job!

However, in answer to my question, it is not that difficult.

Seal 1: the church sent out: 32 AD
Seal 2: devil trying to stop the advance of the gospel using war: church age
Seal 3: devil trying to stop the advance of the gospel using famine: church age
Seal 4: devil trying to stop the advance of the gospel using pestilence: church age
Seal 5: martyrs of the church age.
where we are now.
Seal 6: the start of the Day of the Lord.

The day of the Lord has not come. The time of God's wrath on earth is future.
No nukes have been used in world war: trumpets 1-3
No angelic army has killed 1/3 of earth's population: 6th trumpet
These things are future.

Satan is NOT bound as seen in Rev. 20. When Satan is bound the curse will be lifted and children can play with poisonous snakes and lambs can lay down with lions. This is for the millennial reign of Christ. Please tell you you believe in the 1000 year reign in our future? Yes, God limits satan to some extent.
Most of what happens in the world today is Satan's doing, not God's.

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1. Satan is a spiritual being.

2. Spiritual chains restraint spiritual beings in Scripture.

3. Revelation is saturated in figurative language.

4. There is NO other Scripture that corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroyed.

5. Scripture teaches that Satan has already fell from heaven and now present in the Abyss (John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:9-13). Peter 2:4, Jude v 6 and Revelation 9:1-11 shows the demonic world in a current spiritually bound condition in the abyss.

6. Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

summerville said:

Good grief.. Do you actually believe such rubbish?

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If it were YOU that died on an operating table, would YOu call it rubbish?

summerville said:

You can invent anything as a futurist and change your prophecies with changing geopolitics. The possibilities are endless. Once the beast was the USSR now its the UN or the EU. Once the antiChrist was JFK or the Pope.

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Say anything you want. No preterist has ever shown when in History each of the 7 trumpet judgments came, and when each vial was poured it. Until someone shows us these things, their theories are myth.

If Revelation is future, and people imagine it is history, it will hit them like a category 5 tornado.

iamlamad said:

Say anything you want. No preterist has ever shown when in History each of the 7 trumpet judgments came, and when each vial was poured it. Until someone shows us these things, their theories are myth.

If Revelation is future, and people imagine it is history, it will hit them like a category 5 tornado.

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It is past, present and future.

sovereigngrace said:

Add Mussolini, Hitler, Prince Charles, and Obama, etc, etc to the list. Many of us got dizzy on that round-about and jumped off. Y2K was also a Futurists bonanza. But it ended up backfiring on them, causing many to question the whole charade.

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LOLOL.. How right you are.

sovereigngrace said:

1. Satan is a spiritual being.

2. Spiritual chains restraint spiritual beings in Scripture.

3. Revelation is saturated in figurative language.

4. There is NO other Scripture that corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroyed.

5. Scripture teaches that Satan has already fell from heaven and now present in the Abyss (John 12:31-33 and Revelation 12:9-13). Peter 2:4, Jude v 6 and Revelation 9:1-11 shows the demonic world in a current spiritually bound condition in the abyss.

6. Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

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This is all pretty much myth, like many posts on this thread. Jesus called Him the Prince of the world. Paul called Him the god of this world.

Serious bible students know that as long as there are wars, rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, kingdoms against kingdoms: famines, pestilences (like the coronavirus), and earthquakes, we know Satan is very much still the god of this planet.

sovereigngrace said:

It is past, present and future.

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Exactly! It switches from history to future at the 5th and 6th seals. From there on it is all future except for a few minor places.

iamlamad said:

Say anything you want. No preterist has ever shown when in History each of the 7 trumpet judgments came, and when each vial was poured it. Until someone shows us these things, their theories are myth.

If Revelation is future, and people imagine it is history, it will hit them like a category 5 tornado.

Click to expand...

According to Josephus it was downright horrible.. Look at what the Jews endured under Antiochus IV followed by the Maccabean Revolt. Then the Jewish war and the rampaging of the zealots and their cronies for 3 years followed by the destruction of the Temple.. Followed by the Bar Kokba Revolt and Hadrian. Hadrian refused to let them bury their dead so they rotted in the streets. Many fled to the caves above the Dead Sea.. Hadrian hunted them down and killed them.

Pretty horrible times.

sovereigngrace said:

You do not seem to get the fact that Revelation is describing a spiritual conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. We have moved a long time ago from the old covenant to the new covenant. We have moved from the physical to the spiritual, from the temporal to the eternal, from the earthly to the heavenly, from the visible to the invisible.

Men are either on one side or the other. Men are either in the army of God or in the beast’s army - controlled by Satan. God's army on earth and God's army in heaven are spiritually one. When Jesus comes Christ unifies the whole army. What is left on earth is the wicked (or the beast's army). He destroys all them, resurrects them and judges all together. He then sets up the eternal state on the new heavens and new earth.

We know from repeated Scripture there are only two peoples on the earth – those whose names are written in the book of life (the redeemed Church throughout time) and those whose names are not written in the book of life (the Christ-rejecting world). Those that withhold their veneration of this evil beast are assuredly the elect of God – those chosen from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:3-6, 11, Titus 1:1-2, II Thessalonians 2:13-14, 2 Timothy 1:9). The beast’s disciples include everyone else – that great number of Christ-rejecters on the broad road to destruction “whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

Revelation 17:8 teaches, “The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder (thaumazo or admire or marvel), whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast.”

This text makes clear that the beast attracts the affections of all the non-elect. All “that dwell on the earth” admire or marvel at the beast “whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.” The language here is pretty water-tight.

This passage again only recognizes 2 peoples: those who are in the Book of life that are shown to be the only ones that don’t admire the beast, and those who aren’t in the book of life and who consequently reverence the beast.

Remarkably, the sum total of those “that dwell on the earth ... whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” shall admire and marvel “when they behold the beast.” They look with awe and amazement at him. They give their allegiance to this fiend. They esteem the incredible power and influence of this evil entity. The beast’s followers are therefore the sum total of the wicked. The beast holds the affection of all the unregenerate. We know the ungodly are besotted by this wicked influence because of the wording of Holy Writ. The beast gains the hearts and minds of the Christ-rejecter.

This can only refer to the full amount of those among the wicked that stubbornly refuse to bow their knee to Christ in this current life. It is they that are beguiled by the subtle prompting of the beast and are shown to have no time for the things of God. The awful consequence of this delusion is that they have no part or portion “in the book of life” which is said to be written in eternity – “from the foundation of the world.”

Revelation 13:16-17 underpins the all-encompassing nature of the beast’s army, saying, “he (the false prophet) causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

Everyone on earth that is not written in the book of life is required to submit to the beast’s authority. When we look at the detailed description of the beast in Revelation (including his image and his mark), we can see that the apocalypse very clearly distinguishes between those who take the mark of the beast and those who don't.

The people in the beast kingdom are those whose names are not written in the book of life. They worship the beast and are part of the beast kingdom. Revelation 20:15 confirms the fate of all those who are not in the book of life, saying, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

Revelation 14:9-11 says, “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Beast’s subjects = those excluded from the book of life = those that are eternally damned to “the lake of fire.”
Christ’s subjects = those included in the book of life = those that are eternally saved from “the lake of fire.”

Scripture after Scripture (referring to the beast) makes clear that men either have the mark and worship the beast and his image or else they refuse any association with him / it. It is that simple. Those who have the mark of the beast are lost and will be thrown into the lake of fire at the Judgment. Those who do not have the mark of the beast have the seal of God (Holy Spirit) and are saved and reign with Christ spiritually even now in heavenly places (Ephesians 1:3, 2:6, Hebrews 12:22-23 and Revelation 20:4) and will inherit eternal life in the new heavens and new earth.

1. There is no mention of Megiddo in Revelation 19, as you suggest.
2. There are only 2 peoples in this world - saved and lost. The saved belong to the Lord's army the wicked belong to the beast's.

I believe Revelation 19 completes the 6th of 7 parallels in Revelation that describe the intra-Advent and conclude with the climactic return of Christ. After “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7), which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked. John sees “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True … And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (11-14).

The beast's army is totally destroyed in Revelation 19. There are no wicked to inherit the millennium, as Premil contends. They are wiped. Everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” He destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth. He then “treadeth (or tramples) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath, indignation and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

The picture being portrayed here is that of the grapes being crushed by the vineyard worker making wine. The reference to “the winepress” is symbolic language denoting the fate of the wicked when Christ appears – that is why it is called “the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” The Christ-rejecter misses the catching away, and is consequently trampled underfoot like grapes being crushed in a winepress. The grapes are the disobedient of all nations.

How can these rebels possibly escape such a furious end? True judgment and righteousness has now arrived in the form of Christ and the glorified saints. Like every other Second Coming passage, this is climactic language describing the final end of rebellious man.

Click to expand...

1. There is no mention of Megiddo in Revelation 19, as you suggest.
2. There are only 2 peoples in this world - saved and lost. The saved belong to the Lord's army the wicked belong to the beast's.

Every detail is not written in the book of Revelation - details such as the rapture.
The Beast of Revelation does not exist yet. It is future. There is no "beast" today.

After “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7), which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked. J

All this time you have denied a pretrib rapture. How did the saints get to the marriage? You have never answered this question. It is so easy to answer with a pretrib rapture. It will be very difficult with a posttrib rapture. No postribber has ever figured this one out. They will miss the marriage and supper.

“heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True … And the armies which were in heaven

Where? In heaven! This shows us Jesus was in heaven during the events of chapters 8 through 18 and the first part of 19. I wonder if you remember:

John 14: "that where I am, there ye may be also." Where "am" Jesus during those chapters of Revelation? IN HEAVEN! "I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself"

See how plain this is when you add it to the verses in Revelation? Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for us and has remained in heaven all this time, and will spend the entire tribulation period IN HEAVEN. And that is where He will take the church.

There are no wicked to inherit the millennium, as Premil contends. Really!

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Where on earth are you going to get the goats? You have killed them!
Where on earth are you going to find any sheep? You have resurrected all of them!

Sorry, it is not the wicked that inherit the millennium: it is the righteous that survive the tribulation.

summerville said:

According to Josephus it was downright horrible.. Look at what the Jews endured under Antiochus IV followed by the Maccabean Revolt. Then the Jewish war and the rampaging of the zealots and their cronies for 3 years followed by the destruction of the Temple.. Followed by the Bar Kokba Revolt and Hadrian. Hadrian refused to let them bury their dead so they rotted in the streets. Many fled to the caves above the Dead Sea.. Hadrian hunted them down and killed them.

Pretty horrible times.

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Agreed: but no trumpet of vial fits those events.

summerville said:

15 Year-Old Secular Jewish Boy Nathan's Vision of WWIII on ...
15 Year-Old Secular Jewish Boy Nathan's Vision of WWIII on Blood Moon: Gog Magog Future of Israel - 444 Prophecy Newsjewish-boy-nathans-vision-of-wwiii-on...
Aug 29, 2018 · 15 Year-Old Secular Jewish Boy Nathan’s Vision of WWIII on Blood Moon: Gog Magog Future of Israel. This Jewish boy, his name is Natan – we’ll say Nathan in English or Anglicize it. Nathan died for 15 minutes on the first day of Sukkot 2015, which was …

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Thanks for posting

iamlamad said:

1. There is no mention of Megiddo in Revelation 19, as you suggest.
2. There are only 2 peoples in this world - saved and lost. The saved belong to the Lord's army the wicked belong to the beast's.

Every detail is not written in the book of Revelation - details such as the rapture.
The Beast of Revelation does not exist yet. It is future. There is no "beast" today.

After “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7), which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked. J

All this time you have denied a pretrib rapture. How did the saints get to the marriage? You have never answered this question. It is so easy to answer with a pretrib rapture. It will be very difficult with a posttrib rapture. No postribber has ever figured this one out. They will miss the marriage and supper.

“heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True … And the armies which were in heaven

Where? In heaven! This shows us Jesus was in heaven during the events of chapters 8 through 18 and the first part of 19. I wonder if you remember:

John 14: "that where I am, there ye may be also." Where "am" Jesus during those chapters of Revelation? IN HEAVEN! "I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself"

See how plain this is when you add it to the verses in Revelation? Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for us and has remained in heaven all this time, and will spend the entire tribulation period IN HEAVEN. And that is where He will take the church.

There are no wicked to inherit the millennium, as Premil contends. Really!

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Where on earth are you going to get the goats? You have killed them!
Where on earth are you going to find any sheep? You have resurrected all of them!

Sorry, it is not the wicked that inherit the millennium: it is the righteous that survive the tribulation.

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The Beast of Revelation is in the past. It was either Nero or Domitan and both had their likenesses engraved on Roman coin.

iamlamad said:

Ha! Maybe some of those left behind. But the Bride of Christ will be waiting out this time in heaven. Will YOU choose to escape what is coming here, or will you choose to stay behind?

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I’ve already escaped it, whether I’m here or not. Just as Noah was left behind to witness those who were taken by the wrath of God, if I’m still alive, I’ll do the same. I’m not looking forward to it, but I’ll have to have patient endurance...

iamlamad said:

Agreed: but no trumpet of vial fits those events.

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Well, you are a futurist.

iamlamad said:

This is all pretty much myth, like many posts on this thread. Jesus called Him the Prince of the world. Paul called Him the god of this world.

Serious bible students know that as long as there are wars, rumors of wars, nations rising against nations, kingdoms against kingdoms: famines, pestilences (like the coronavirus), and earthquakes, we know Satan is very much still the god of this planet.

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Speak for yourself. He is not the god of my world. You have a habit of ignoring multiple Scripture that refutes your position. Please address what I wrote instead of voicing your opinions all the time. That is the only way your doctrine survives.

iamlamad said:

Ha! Maybe some of those left behind. But the Bride of Christ will be waiting out this time in heaven. Will YOU choose to escape what is coming here, or will you choose to stay behind?

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I’ve already escaped it, whether I’m here or not. Just as Noah was left behind to witness those who were taken by the wrath of God, if I’m still alive, I’ll do the same.

summerville said:

The Beast of Revelation is in the past. It was either Nero or Domitan and both had their likenesses engraved on Roman coin.

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That is a theory - but it is not the right theory. It is future, as is most of Revelation. Most of the Christian world knows this.

iamlamad said:

1. There is no mention of Megiddo in Revelation 19, as you suggest.
2. There are only 2 peoples in this world - saved and lost. The saved belong to the Lord's army the wicked belong to the beast's.

Every detail is not written in the book of Revelation - details such as the rapture.
The Beast of Revelation does not exist yet. It is future. There is no "beast" today.

After “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7), which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked.

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This is describing the same climactic coming of Christ as Paul was in 1 Thessalonians 4. You have Christ’s appearing, the rescue of the saints and the destruction of the wicked.

All this time you have denied a pretrib rapture. How did the saints get to the marriage? You have never answered this question. It is so easy to answer with a pretrib rapture. It will be very difficult with a posttrib rapture. No postribber has ever figured this one out. They will miss the marriage and supper.

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See above!

“heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True … And the armies which were in heaven

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Where? In heaven! This shows us Jesus was in heaven during the events of chapters 8 through 18 and the first part of 19. I wonder if you remember:

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This is the second coming.

John 14: "that where I am, there ye may be also." Where "am" Jesus during those chapters of Revelation? IN HEAVEN! "I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself"

See how plain this is when you add it to the verses in Revelation? Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for us and has remained in heaven all this time, and will spend the entire tribulation period IN HEAVEN. And that is where He will take the church.

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He kept His word, His disciples are currently with Him now in the intermediate.

Really!

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31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Where on earth are you going to get the goats? You have killed them!
Where on earth are you going to find any sheep? You have resurrected all of them!

Sorry, it is not the wicked that inherit the millennium: it is the righteous that survive the tribulation.

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The wicked are all destroyed at the one and only second coming depicted in Revelation 19.