Is the Rapture biblical?

iamlamad

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  1. The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So, which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection?
  2. Which is the foremost resurrection in time?
  3. Which is the foremost resurrection in place?
  4. Which is the foremost resurrection in order?
  5. Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?
  6. Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23?
  7. Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?
  8. Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?
  9. Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?
Look: it is not that difficult: There are TWO resurrections.
One is for the righteous.
One is for the damned.

Why try to complicate it? Do you REALLY wish to learn, or is your goal just to prove everyone else wrong? I think your character is showing.

When we read (in time, place, order, etc,) it does not mean the use in Rev 20 is ALL THREE! It is ONE of the three. Which one? Of course "importance."

The first or primary or chiefest of all resurrections is for the righteous. That is why it is most important. It does not take place at one moment in time. Jesus was the first of this chiefest of resurrections, around 2000 years ago.
 
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sovereigngrace

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One must be able to read and comprehend what they read. It is not a difficult scripture, but I understand it does not fit some people's theories: so they deny the plain scriptures.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Note: when John wrote "but the rest of the dead did not live again until the 1000 years are finished - He is proving two resurrections: one for the blessed and holy, called the first or primary or chief of resurrections for all the righteous, then another resurrection after 1000 years. But what does John mean by "the rest?" It mean all who are left dead after the dead in Christ, the dead old Testament saints and the beheaded during the week were raised.

But John gives us more.

2 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Notice "and I saw the dead...WHICH dead? Of course the "rest of the dead" not raised yet. Who? "death and hell delivered up their dead. In other words, this "second death" resurrection is for the damned only. Notice what verse 6 says:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.

Just this verse alone show two resurrections: one is a different resurrection from the second death resurrection. Those who take place in the first, are not appointed to the second. They won't even be there.

So there is a "first resurrection" and there is a "second death" resurrection. They are different, for different kinds of people and are separated by 1000 years.

Please stop avoiding the questions:
  1. What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
  2. Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?
  3. What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?
  4. Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Look: it is not that difficult: There are TWO resurrections.
One is for the righteous.
One is for the damned.

Why try to complicate it? Do you REALLY wish to learn, or is your goal just to prove everyone else wrong? I think your character is showing.

When we read (in time, place, order, etc,) it does not mean the use in Rev 20 is ALL THREE! It is ONE of the three. Which one? Of course "importance."

The first or primary or chiefest of all resurrections is for the righteous. That is why it is most important. It does not take place at one moment in time. Jesus was the first of this chiefest of resurrections, around 2000 years ago.

Please stop avoiding the questions:
  1. The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So, which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection?
  2. Which is the foremost resurrection in time?
  3. Which is the foremost resurrection in place?
  4. Which is the foremost resurrection in order?
  5. Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?
  6. Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23?
  7. Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?
  8. Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?
  9. Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You don't even have one single proof text that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a 3rd coming of Christ. It does not exist in the sacred text. You just cherry pick detail from various unrelated passages in Scripture, dump them all into a pot, and stir them together, and lo and behold what is produced is Pretrib.
Some people, perhaps many, like the feelings of this (like many traditions and false teachings), and won't find out until later the truth.
 
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iamlamad

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During our Lord’s earthly ministry, He made a very significant statement about the eternal abode. Jesus said, in John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Scripture clearly teaches that the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to “the new earth” at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, the old earth having passed away.

Christ here directly addresses the concern of His disciples just prior to His heavenly removal. He clearly intended to convey a real sense of hope and comfort to His troubled disciples, in this reading, who were evidently concerned at the thought of the His impending departure.

He says that even though He had to leave them for His Father’s house, He was coming again to bring His people unto a prepared place.

In doing so, He advanced some precious Divine truths, which are deserving of our careful consideration and note, none more so than the fact that He was assuredly returning for His saints. He plainly and succinctly declares, “if I go…I will come again.” This is the great assurance for every believer, that, yet, for a short season he is faced with earthly trials, tribulations and separation, it is but nothing in comparison to that place and condition which awaits God’s heavenly people.

So, the disciples are there now - in heaven! He took them there. When He comes that prepared place - the New Jerusalem is coming down to a newly regenerated earth.

Scripture clearly teaches that the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to “the new earth” at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, the old earth having passed away.
My friend, you are MILES from the truth here! You probably should just give up.
Jesus comes as shown in Rev. 19.
Armageddon takes place. Rev. 19
The beheaded are resurrected: Rev 20.
The 1000 year reign is started.
The 1000 year reign ENDS. Battle of God and Magog.
Old heaven and earth destroyed
White throne judgment
New heaven and New earth
The Holy City Jerusalem comes down.

This is the order John gives us, because it is the RIGHT Order. How then could someone be SO FAR off from the truth?

The truth then, New Jerusalem will come down OVER 1000 years after Jesus returns to Armageddon. You amaze me.
 
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iamlamad

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That is all theories and speculations. 1 Thessalonians 4 does not say that - or ever will. Paul is silent on that. You also need to be silent when it is not in the text. There is no earthquake in Paul's "sudden destruction." It is the wrath of God being poured out at the end of time, destroying all the wicked and regenerating this earth. Multiple Scriptures show this. The 6th seal is not the rapture. There is no rapture mentioned there. Again, as is you habit, you force it in where it does not belong. That is typical of your hermeneutics. You make it up as you go. You force Scripture to say what it doesn't say!
I'm sure glad you have this all worked out! No one else has ever come close.
Tell you what: when we get to heaven, let's compare notes.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Scripture clearly teaches that the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to “the new earth” at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, the old earth having passed away.
My friend, you are MILES from the truth here! You probably should just give up.
Jesus comes as shown in Rev. 19.
Armageddon takes place. Rev. 19
The beheaded are resurrected: Rev 20.
The 1000 year reign is started.
The 1000 year reign ENDS. Battle of God and Magog.
Old heaven and earth destroyed
White throne judgment
New heaven and New earth
The Holy City Jerusalem comes down.

This is the order John gives us, because it is the RIGHT Order. How then could someone be SO FAR off from the truth?

The truth then, New Jerusalem will come down OVER 1000 years after Jesus returns to Armageddon. You amaze me.

Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 are not (and cannot) be chronological. This is part of your confusion here.

Revelation 19:17-18 is climactic, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be a unique day in the annals of human history and unprecedented in its all-consummating character. Obviously, no other day has ever seen the end of the world and the final complete defeat of every last enemy of righteousness, truth and Almighty God. Neither has any other day seen the destruction of all wickedness by way of fire before. Notwithstanding, the Lord draws our specific attention to two notable days in human history to compare it with, and to fully illustrate the character and finality of this all-consummating day. These two particular days are familiar to most and are found in Holy Writ (both in the Old Testament), and give us an unparalleled insight into the nature, extent and detail of judgment on that impending last day. While, evidently there is no previous individual bygone historic example of a total global annihilation of the wicked by fire, these two individual days, when joined together, vividly portray what will occur on the final day of time. These two former days being (1) the day that Noah entered into the ark and (2) the day that Lot was rescued out of Sodom.
 
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iamlamad

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Sovereigngrace:
Rev. 1 is clearly back in John's time, around 95 AD. If we look at chapter 21, it is at least a thousand years into our future.

It just makes sense then, that somewhere between 95 AD and over a thousand years into our future is where we are NOW in Revelation.

Where then do YOU say we are?
 
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sovereigngrace

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I'm sure glad you have this all worked out! No one else has ever come close.
Tell you what: when we get to heaven, let's compare notes.

I sure will. It is easy when you let the Bible speak for itself.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Sovereigngrace:
Rev. 1 is clearly back in John's time, around 95 AD. If we look at chapter 21, it is at least a thousand years into our future.

It just makes sense then, that somewhere between 95 AD and over a thousand years into our future is where we are NOW in Revelation.

Where then do YOU say we are?

Who truly knows. I believe we are in (or close to) Satan's little season. Satan will be released at the end of the millennium for a little season (Rev 20:3). I believe this corresponds with the appearing of the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. Paul tells us that the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way, corresponds perfectly with what we have said about the limiting of Satan's present power. This restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

Satan is bound, having only such power as God grants him. Whenever God is ready, he will remove the restrainer; that is, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2:7). Then, says Paul, the lawless one will be given full power to deceive them that perish.
 
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summerville

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Scripture clearly teaches that the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to “the new earth” at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, the old earth having passed away.
My friend, you are MILES from the truth here! You probably should just give up.
Jesus comes as shown in Rev. 19.
Armageddon takes place. Rev. 19
The beheaded are resurrected: Rev 20.
The 1000 year reign is started.
The 1000 year reign ENDS. Battle of God and Magog.
Old heaven and earth destroyed
White throne judgment
New heaven and New earth
The Holy City Jerusalem comes down.

This is the order John gives us, because it is the RIGHT Order. How then could someone be SO FAR off from the truth?

The truth then, New Jerusalem will come down OVER 1000 years after Jesus returns to Armageddon. You amaze me.

New Jerusalem is spiritual not physical.
 
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iamlamad

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Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 are not (and cannot) be chronological. This is part of your confusion here.

Revelation 19:17-18 is climactic, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be a unique day in the annals of human history and unprecedented in its all-consummating character. Obviously, no other day has ever seen the end of the world and the final complete defeat of every last enemy of righteousness, truth and Almighty God. Neither has any other day seen the destruction of all wickedness by way of fire before. Notwithstanding, the Lord draws our specific attention to two notable days in human history to compare it with, and to fully illustrate the character and finality of this all-consummating day. These two particular days are familiar to most and are found in Holy Writ (both in the Old Testament), and give us an unparalleled insight into the nature, extent and detail of judgment on that impending last day. While, evidently there is no previous individual bygone historic example of a total global annihilation of the wicked by fire, these two individual days, when joined together, vividly portray what will occur on the final day of time. These two former days being (1) the day that Noah entered into the ark and (2) the day that Lot was rescued out of Sodom.

My friend! Every time you post, we see more lack of understanding. You really need to study more before posting again.

Revelation 19:17-18 is climactic This is false! It is the battle of Armageddon. It is NOT THE WHOLE WORLD! Did you not read at the 6th vial where the devil sent out demons to bring in the armies of the world. Mostly those who die will be military. It is war. The whole world will not fit into the valley of Megiddo.

Did you overlook this? "I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army." It is a military battle, but Jesus wins. Everyone does not die. If they did, where in the world will God find the goats for the sheep and goat judgment? You have never answered this for several posts now.

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great [that have been drawn by Satan to the battle.) "I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse"

My friend, you cannot form doctrine from one single verse. you have to take 5 above in light of "I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse"

A Jewish boy that went to heaven and came back said that 70 nations gathered against Israel. That does not mean every human in 70 nations. It means the ARMIES of 70 nations. You amaze me.
 
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summerville

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My friend! Every time you post, we see more lack of understanding. You really need to study more before posting again.

Revelation 19:17-18 is climactic This is false! It is the battle of Armageddon. It is NOT THE WHOLE WORLD! Did you not read at the 6th vial where the devil sent out demons to bring in the armies of the world. Mostly those who die will be military. It is war. The whole world will not fit into the valley of Megiddo.

Did you overlook this? "I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army." It is a military battle, but Jesus wins. Everyone does not die. If they did, where in the world will God find the goats for the sheep and goat judgment? You have never answered this for several posts now.

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great [that have been drawn by Satan to the battle.) "I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse"

My friend, you cannot form doctrine from one single verse. you have to take 5 above in light of "I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse"

A Jewish boy that went to heaven and came back said that 70 nations gathered against Israel. That does not mean every human in 70 nations. It means the ARMIES of 70 nations. You amaze me.

What Jewish boy are you talking about?
 
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iamlamad

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Who truly knows. I believe we are in (or close to) Satan's little season. Satan will be released at the end of the millennium for a little season (Rev 20:3). I believe this corresponds with the appearing of the man of sin in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. Paul tells us that the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way, corresponds perfectly with what we have said about the limiting of Satan's present power. This restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

Satan is bound, having only such power as God grants him. Whenever God is ready, he will remove the restrainer; that is, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way (2 Thessalonians 2:7). Then, says Paul, the lawless one will be given full power to deceive them that perish.
Finally you have written something I can agree with, mostly. Good job!

However, in answer to my question, it is not that difficult.

Seal 1: the church sent out: 32 AD
Seal 2: devil trying to stop the advance of the gospel using war: church age
Seal 3: devil trying to stop the advance of the gospel using famine: church age
Seal 4: devil trying to stop the advance of the gospel using pestilence: church age
Seal 5: martyrs of the church age.
where we are now.
Seal 6: the start of the Day of the Lord.

The day of the Lord has not come. The time of God's wrath on earth is future.
No nukes have been used in world war: trumpets 1-3
No angelic army has killed 1/3 of earth's population: 6th trumpet
These things are future.

Satan is NOT bound as seen in Rev. 20. When Satan is bound the curse will be lifted and children can play with poisonous snakes and lambs can lay down with lions. This is for the millennial reign of Christ. Please tell you you believe in the 1000 year reign in our future? Yes, God limits satan to some extent.
Most of what happens in the world today is Satan's doing, not God's.
 
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summerville

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Finally you have written something I can agree with, mostly. Good job!

However, in answer to my question, it is not that difficult.

Seal 1: the church sent out: 32 AD
Seal 2: devil trying to stop the advance of the gospel using war: church age
Seal 3: devil trying to stop the advance of the gospel using famine: church age
Seal 4: devil trying to stop the advance of the gospel using pestilence: church age
Seal 5: martyrs of the church age.
where we are now.
Seal 6: the start of the Day of the Lord.

The day of the Lord has not come. The time of God's wrath on earth is future.
No nukes have been used in world war: trumpets 1-3
No angelic army has killed 1/3 of earth's population: 6th trumpet
These things are future.

Satan is NOT bound as seen in Rev. 20. When Satan is bound the curse will be lifted and children can play with poisonous snakes and lambs can lay down with lions. This is for the millennial reign of Christ. Please tell you you believe in the 1000 year reign in our future? Yes, God limits satan to some extent.
Most of what happens in the world today is Satan's doing, not God's.

You can invent anything as a futurist and change your prophecies with changing geopolitics. The possibilities are endless. Once the beast was the USSR now its the UN or the EU. Once the antiChrist was JFK or the Pope.
 
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15 Year-Old Secular Jewish Boy Nathan's Vision of WWIII on ...
15 Year-Old Secular Jewish Boy Nathan's Vision of WWIII on Blood Moon: Gog Magog Future of Israel - 444 Prophecy Newsjewish-boy-nathans-vision-of-wwiii-on...
Aug 29, 2018 · 15 Year-Old Secular Jewish Boy Nathan’s Vision of WWIII on Blood Moon: Gog Magog Future of Israel. This Jewish boy, his name is Natan – we’ll say Nathan in English or Anglicize it. Nathan died for 15 minutes on the first day of Sukkot 2015, which was …
 
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