Is the Rapture biblical?

iamlamad

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You really don't understand how you convict yourself with that above statement, do you?

Our Lord Jesus' answer shows the 1st one taken is NOT to Him!

And evidently, you have yet to understand that the idea of 'fowls' are sometimes used as a symbol for Satan's host (Luke 8:5 and Luke 8:12).

The Matthew 24:28 verse has the idea of a dead "carcase" being where the eagles (fowls) are gathered. Thus the eagles are put for fowls eating a dead carcase. And the Greek word for a dead carcase is in the NT manuscripts.

So the Left-Behind idea the pre-trib rapture school teaches is BACKWARDS. It's those who are left behind that represent Christ's Church.

The two women grinding, the one left keeps on working.
That represents those in Christ staying faithful, like "a chaste virgin", waiting on Christ, and continuing in His Work. That is how Jesus expects to find us when He comes.
Wow! It is amazing how you have this all figured out to eliminate a pretrib rapture!

Are you saying that matthew 24 is chronological? I doubt that seriously!
The next problem I have is this: Matthew 24 is not about the rapture of the church! If we look at all three versions of the Olivet discourse, Jesus mentioned synagogues. Christians don't go to synagogues. This chapter is talking about the 70th week (the abomination at the midpoint) and then His coming AFTER the week.

Sorry, but the rapture of the church is before the week, so IN CONTEXT none of the taking and left behind fits the rapture. It fits His coming to Armageddon as in Rev. chapter 19. Since Jesus will be busy with the battle of Armageddon, I think it better fits the parable of the tares. As Jesus descends, one of the armies of heaven are sent to perform the parable of the tares. (I personally believe Matthew 24 Is chronological up to verse 35.

However, IF the Olivet discourse is not chronological (at least in these verses) and Jesus is just making comments of the end, suppose He did mention a taking of the saints in the rapture (paralambono) and'or in the parable of the tares. Who is to say which is which? Both verse 40 and 41 in Matthew 24 use paralambono. In Luke both verses 35 and 36 use the word Paralambono.

Therefore, either that word can be used for taking to be destroyed or taking in the rapture - or all of these "taking's is about the rapture.

(Matthew)27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
(Luke) 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” 37 “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.”

In Matthew 24:28 Jesus could well be referring to the millions of soldiers that will die at Armageddon. That would be at the right time.

If these verses were self explanatory, all would agree. They are not so there is much disagreement. It is good there is someone like you that has it down!
 
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summerville

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Doesn't change the late date for Daniel or the authorship.

Who was the King of Arabia?

The Harran Stele, which is an inscription of Nabonidus, mentions a certain “king of the land of the Medes” alongside the kings of Egypt and Arabia as Babylon’s leading enemies. This inscription was produced well after the supposed conquest of Media by Cyrus, and therefore seems to indicate that Cyrus did not depose the last Median king
 
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iamlamad

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There is no earthquake in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5.
There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5.
There is no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.
There is no Pretrib in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5.

The only 'seven years' passage that you bring to the table (namely Daniel 9) makes absolutely no mention to your so-called rapture, seven-year tribulation, or third coming. It has to be forced into the sacred text. What is more, you have to rip it o

You basically cherry pick detail from various unrelated passages in Scripture, dump them all into a pot, and stir them together, and Lo and behold what is produced but Pretrib. It is extra-biblical. It is unscriptural. This is senseless hermeneutics.

There is no earthquake in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5.
There is in Matthew 27 and in Rev. 11.
There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5.
There is in Revelation and in Daniel.
There is no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.
That is your theory that I think is flaky. It does not say "none shall escape." you made that up.
There is no Pretrib in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5.
Paul gives the timing in chapter 5. John proves it is pretrib in Revelation.

The only 'seven years' passage that you bring to the table (namely Daniel 9) makes absolutely no mention to your so-called rapture
When someone uses the word "so-called" in reference to the rapture, I know they have not studied.
Did Daniel write of the 70th week? Is it not going to be 7 years long? The church world thinks so. If it is not so, perhaps you should teach it worldwide!

Did you not read of the half week in daniel of time,times and half of time, written TWICE?
Did you not read in Revelation of the last half of the week being 1260 days, 1260 days, 41 months, 42 months, and time, times and half of time?

Can you multiply by 2? If a half week is 42 months, how many months is a whole week? If a half week is 3.5 years, then the whole week is 7 years.

So far, we have three verses in Daniel and 5 verses in Revelation that prove a 7 year period of time. How many more would ANY student of the bible need?

I have said this over and over, and you have ignored it every time. Get it straight this time: the 70th week is for DANIEL's people - the JEWS. The rapture is for the CHURCH. Different people - two different groups of people - with two different end time results. Therefore your question is silly to the extreme and shows a great lack of knowledge. Again I highly recommend more study on your part.

You basically cherry pick detail from various unrelated passages in Scripture, dump them all into a pot, and stir them together, and Lo and behold what is produced but Pretrib. It is extra-biblical. It is unscriptural. This is senseless hermeneutics.
WOW! All this time I was sure this was a posttrib trick!

Look, the key here is to UNDERSTAND the scriptures, not just copy and paste. Anyone that expects the 70th week and the rapture in one scripture lacts understanding.
 
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iamlamad

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This is out of order and should be stopped forthwith. It is accusatory, unfair and wrong. Just because you have no biblical justification for your theory doesn't mean you should turn on those engaging with you.
Not at all! It was a simple question of choice. Here is the verse:

Luke 17:36 Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

It is plain: God has made a way to escape all that is about to take place. People can choose to escape or choose not to. It is their choice.
 
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iamlamad

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The reality is: this 2-future-comings theory was invented by Emmanuel Lacunza (or Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz), a Chilean theologian of Spanish descent (born in Santiago, Chile, July 19, 1731, and died at Imola, Italy, June 17, 1801). He became a member of the Jesuit order in 1747 at the age of 16.

Lacunza wrote this book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible, as your avoidance has proved. You have zero biblical evidence, only speculations and theories.
Of course this is all nonsense: PAUL wrote the rapture doctrine.
 
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iamlamad

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Where does it say that the church that is caught up goes to heaven in 1 Thess 4? Please give me a Scripture?
How many times must I remind people that we don't form doctrine from an isolated verse! We use ALL the end times scriptures. Did you ever read John 14?
 
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iamlamad

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There are no two comings in Scripture, as your failure to prove such exemplifies. There ares no two comings in history. The Jesuits invented that 200 years ago to bring confusion amongst Protestants.
This is just someone's false theory. OF COURSE there are two MORE comings shown in scripture. In one He comes ONLY to the air. In other He comes to fight. In His coming to the air, He hides in a cloud. In His coming to fight, He comes riding on a white horse.

TWO COMINGS and the scriptures for each prove they are different.
 
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sovereigngrace

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There is in Matthew 27 and in Rev. 11.

But you are applying it to your so-called rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, where it does not exist. So, my thesis was correct. Matthew 27 relates back to the cross. What has that to do with a future rapture?

There is in Revelation and in Daniel.

But you are applying it to your so-called rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, where it does not exist. So, my thesis was correct. Daniel 9 relates back to the earthly ministry of Christ, and is historic. What is more, there is no mention of your 2nd or 3rd comings in Daniel 9, you force it in there!


That is your theory that I think is flaky. It does not say "none shall escape." you made that up.

You are fighting with Scripture. You say billions escape, however I Thessalonians 5:2-3 says: "the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

I prefer Scripture! So, my thesis was correct.

Paul gives the timing in chapter 5. John proves it is pretrib in Revelation.

You admitted previously that the rapture is not in Revelation. You are all over the place! 2+2=4, not 22. So, my thesis was correct.


When someone uses the word "so-called" in reference to the rapture, I know they have not studied.
Did Daniel write of the 70th week? Is it not going to be 7 years long? The church world thinks so. If it is not so, perhaps you should teach it worldwide!

Did you not read of the half week in daniel of time,times and half of time, written TWICE?
Did you not read in Revelation of the last half of the week being 1260 days, 1260 days, 41 months, 42 months, and time, times and half of time?

Can you multiply by 2? If a half week is 42 months, how many months is a whole week? If a half week is 3.5 years, then the whole week is 7 years.

So far, we have three verses in Daniel and 5 verses in Revelation that prove a 7 year period of time. How many more would ANY student of the bible need?

There are more than 2 x 3 1/2s. There are 5 x 3 ½ years + 1 year = 18½ years.

There are five 3 ½ years:

42 months from Rev 11:2 (temple trampled by Gentiles).
1260 days from Rev 11:3 (two witnesses prophesy).
1260 days from Rev 12:6 (woman flees into the wilderness).
Times, time, and half a time from Rev 12:14 (woman nourished in the wilderness).
42 months from Rev 13:5 (power given to the beast)

42months + 1260days + 1260days + times, time, and half a time (assuming 3 ½ years interpretation) + 42 months = A 17.5 year period in Revelation

I have said this over and over, and you have ignored it every time. Get it straight this time: the 70th week is for DANIEL's people - the JEWS. The rapture is for the CHURCH. Different people - two different groups of people - with two different end time results. Therefore your question is silly to the extreme and shows a great lack of knowledge. Again I highly recommend more study on your part.

WOW! All this time I was sure this was a posttrib trick!

Look, the key here is to UNDERSTAND the scriptures, not just copy and paste. Anyone that expects the 70th week and the rapture in one scripture lacts understanding.

So far you have nothing to prove Pretrib. All you have is elaborate extra-biblical man-made theories that do not say what you are wanting the inspired text to say.

There has only ever been one people of God. We have been grafted into faithful Israel. You are trying to make 2 out of 1, when Scriptures clearly make 1 out of 2. I prefer Scripture to your theories.

Galatians 3:28 says, There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Romans 2:28-29 plainly states, For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh.”

Paul explains in Romans 9:8: “they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

Romans 10:12 states: For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.”

Colossians 3:11 teaches: “Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.”

Race means nothing any more – forever, it is all of grace. Being natural means nothing when it comes to salvation. That is a Dispy myth that conflicts with New Testament teaching.

The fact is, there is (and only has been) one people of God from the beginning. Whilst they were largely found within the nation of Israel before the cross, that was broadened out after the cross to embrace all nations. Race means nothing under the new covenant. The New Testament outlines clearly and repeatedly that "there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles.

1 Corinthians 12:13 tells us: "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles."

Peter taught in Acts 15:9 that “God … put no difference between us and them.”

Paul the apostle spoke of believers as “us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles” (Romans 9:24).

The reality is: “he [Christ] is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us” (Eph 2:14) in order “to make in himself of twain one new man” (Eph 2:15). He done this so that “he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross” (Eph 2:16). The result of this incredible spiritual union has meant Paul the Apostle could say of the Gentiles: “ye are … fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God” (Eph 2:19).

We have become one man with spiritual Israel (the good olive tree). The elect of God cannot be split into two halves. The elect are all one in Christ. There are no sub-groups, schisms or extra-Church groupings accepted of God. There is one God, one Gospel, one type of salvation, one Shepherd and one fold.

The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.
 
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sovereigngrace

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This is just someone's false theory. OF COURSE there are two MORE comings shown in scripture. In one He comes ONLY to the air. In other He comes to fight. In His coming to the air, He hides in a cloud. In His coming to fight, He comes riding on a white horse.

TWO COMINGS and the scriptures for each prove they are different.

Same event, and I think you probably know that.

Where does it say that the church that is caught up goes to heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4? Please give me a Scripture?
 
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iamlamad

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What Scripture, if any, do you consider definitely corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that there are two distinct physical resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention "resurrection days" (plural), pertaining to the end?

What Scripture (including Revelation 20) do you consider definitely teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

Where in Scripture does it mention "judgement days" (plural), in regard to the end?
One must be able to read and comprehend what they read. It is not a difficult scripture, but I understand it does not fit some people's theories: so they deny the plain scriptures.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Note: when John wrote "but the rest of the dead did not live again until the 1000 years are finished - He is proving two resurrections: one for the blessed and holy, called the first or primary or chief of resurrections for all the righteous, then another resurrection after 1000 years. But what does John mean by "the rest?" It mean all who are left dead after the dead in Christ, the dead old Testament saints and the beheaded during the week were raised.

But John gives us more.

2 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Notice "and I saw the dead...WHICH dead? Of course the "rest of the dead" not raised yet. Who? "death and hell delivered up their dead. In other words, this "second death" resurrection is for the damned only. Notice what verse 6 says:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.

Just this verse alone show two resurrections: one is a different resurrection from the second death resurrection. Those who take place in the first, are not appointed to the second. They won't even be there.

So there is a "first resurrection" and there is a "second death" resurrection. They are different, for different kinds of people and are separated by 1000 years.
 
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iamlamad

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Same event, and I think you probably know that.

Where does it say that the church that is caught up goes to heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4? Please give me a Scripture?
How many times do people need an answer? The destination is NOT IN 1 Thes. You should know all the end times scriptures. Heaven is mentioned here:

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is the way postribbers read it:
2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go
[to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, on the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

I don't think this is the Author's intent.
Question: WHERE will Jesus be during the days of tribulation?
 
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sovereigngrace

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One must be able to read and comprehend what they read. It is not a difficult scripture, but I understand it does not fit some people's theories: so they deny the plain scriptures.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.) This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Note: when John wrote "but the rest of the dead did not live again until the 1000 years are finished - He is proving two resurrections: one for the blessed and holy, called the first or primary or chief of resurrections for all the righteous, then another resurrection after 1000 years. But what does John mean by "the rest?" It mean all who are left dead after the dead in Christ, the dead old Testament saints and the beheaded during the week were raised.

But John gives us more.

2 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Notice "and I saw the dead...WHICH dead? Of course the "rest of the dead" not raised yet. Who? "death and hell delivered up their dead. In other words, this "second death" resurrection is for the damned only. Notice what verse 6 says:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.

Just this verse alone show two resurrections: one is a different resurrection from the second death resurrection. Those who take place in the first, are not appointed to the second. They won't even be there.

So there is a "first resurrection" and there is a "second death" resurrection. They are different, for different kinds of people and are separated by 1000 years.
  1. The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So, which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection?
  2. Which is the foremost resurrection in time?
  3. Which is the foremost resurrection in place?
  4. Which is the foremost resurrection in order?
  5. Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?
  6. Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23?
  7. Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?
  8. Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?
  9. Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?
 
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sovereigngrace

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How many times do people need an answer? The destination is NOT IN 1 Thes. You should know all the end times scriptures. Heaven is mentioned here:

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is the way postribbers read it:
2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go
[to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, on the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

I don't think this is the Author's intent.
Question: WHERE will Jesus be during the days of tribulation?

Ok, we can add that to the list of things that forbid Pretrib in 1 Thessalonians 4
  • There is no earthquake in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
  • There is no 7-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
  • There is no survivors in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5. None shall escape.
  • There is no ushering the Church into heaven in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
  • There is no Pretrib in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.
During our Lord’s earthly ministry, He made a very significant statement about the eternal abode. Jesus said, in John 14:1-3, “Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”

Scripture clearly teaches that the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven to “the new earth” at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, the old earth having passed away.

Christ here directly addresses the concern of His disciples just prior to His heavenly removal. He clearly intended to convey a real sense of hope and comfort to His troubled disciples, in this reading, who were evidently concerned at the thought of the His impending departure.

He says that even though He had to leave them for His Father’s house, He was coming again to bring His people unto a prepared place.

In doing so, He advanced some precious Divine truths, which are deserving of our careful consideration and note, none more so than the fact that He was assuredly returning for His saints. He plainly and succinctly declares, “if I go…I will come again.” This is the great assurance for every believer, that, yet, for a short season he is faced with earthly trials, tribulations and separation, it is but nothing in comparison to that place and condition which awaits God’s heavenly people.

The disciples are there now - in heaven! He took them there. When He comes, that prepared place - the New Jerusalem is coming down to a newly regenerated earth.
 
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How many times must I remind people that we don't form doctrine from an isolated verse! We use ALL the end times scriptures. Did you ever read John 14?

You don't even have one single proof text that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a 3rd coming of Christ. It does not exist in the sacred text. You just cherry pick detail from various unrelated passages in Scripture, dump them all into a pot, and stir them together, and lo and behold what is produced is Pretrib.
 
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iamlamad

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But you are applying it to your so-called rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, where it does not exist. So, my thesis was correct. Matthew 27 relates back to the cross. What has that to do with a future rapture?

But you are applying it to your so-called rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, where it does not exist. So, my thesis was correct. Daniel 9 relates back to the earthly ministry of Christ, and is historic. What is more, there is no mention of your 2nd or 3rd comings in Daniel 9, you force it in there!
But you are applying it to your so-called rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, where it does not exist. So, my thesis was correct. Matthew 27 relates back to the cross. What has that to do with a future rapture?

I wonder if this is even worth the effort. Are you here to learn, or to bash every other theory but your own?

Again you say "so-called" rapture. IT IS NOT SO CALLED! Go back and read 1 Thes. 4:17! It is there in black and white. Don't EVER call scripture "so called..." Your theories are showing.

"So, my thesis was correct." Is that why you are here, to prove others wrong and you right?

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Can you understand this is a resurrection? Notice: "many bodies of the saints which slept arose..." When people rise from the dead, it is a resurrection.

Did you notice these words: "the earth did quake." So we have a resurrection and at the same time an earthquake. Got it? They are associated. Have you ever heard of the word "precedent?"

Did you ever read in Rev. 11?

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half
the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was
there a great earthquake,

Again we see a resurrection and then an associated earthquake. Every here of the word "precedent?" We have two examples here in scripture.

1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Do you see a resurrection here? Where is the associated earthquake? Will there be one? Most certainly there will be: the earthquake is caused when God brings together the particles of those dead bodies in an instant of time.

I see the earthquake in Paul's "sudden destruction." Maybe you don't. I don't care. I also see an earthquake at the 6th seal which starts wrath. Paul said the rapture would trigger God's wrath. That places the rapture just before the 6th seal.

Again, are you here to learn, or just to bash what everyone else thinks?
 
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iamlamad

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You don't even have one single proof text that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a 3rd coming of Christ. It does not exist in the sacred text. You just cherry pick detail from various unrelated passages in Scripture, dump them all into a pot, and stir them together, and lo and behold what is produced is Pretrib.
How many times must I remind you, we don't form doctrine from isolated texts: We take ALL texts to form a doctrine. It is the only way to have correct doctrine.

THERE IS NO ONE PROOF TEXT FOR ALL THE END TIMES SCENARIOS. Quit looking! We have to consider ALL end times texts.

I an convinced, you are not here to learn, but to put down every thought other than yours. I guess it is good that there is SOMEONE who has it all together!
 
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sovereigngrace

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But you are applying it to your so-called rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4, where it does not exist. So, my thesis was correct. Matthew 27 relates back to the cross. What has that to do with a future rapture?

I wonder if this is even worth the effort. Are you here to learn, or to bash every other theory but your own?

Again you say "so-called" rapture. IT IS NOT SO CALLED! Go back and read 1 Thes. 4:17! It is there in black and white. Don't EVER call scripture "so called..." Your theories are showing.

"So, my thesis was correct." Is that why you are here, to prove others wrong and you right?

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Can you understand this is a resurrection? Notice: "many bodies of the saints which slept arose..." When people rise from the dead, it is a resurrection.

Did you notice these words: "the earth did quake." So we have a resurrection and at the same time an earthquake. Got it? They are associated. Have you ever heard of the word "precedent?"

Did you ever read in Rev. 11?

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half
the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was
there a great earthquake,

Again we see a resurrection and then an associated earthquake. Every here of the word "precedent?" We have two examples here in scripture.

1 Thes. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Do you see a resurrection here? Where is the associated earthquake? Will there be one? Most certainly there will be: the earthquake is caused when God brings together the particles of those dead bodies in an instant of time.

I see the earthquake in Paul's "sudden destruction." Maybe you don't. I don't care. I also see an earthquake at the 6th seal which starts wrath. Paul said the rapture would trigger God's wrath. That places the rapture just before the 6th seal.

Again, are you here to learn, or just to bash what everyone else thinks?

That is all theories and speculations. 1 Thessalonians 4 does not say that - or ever will. Paul is silent on that. You also need to be silent when it is not in the text. There is no earthquake in Paul's "sudden destruction." It is the wrath of God being poured out at the end of time, destroying all the wicked and regenerating this earth. Multiple Scriptures show this. The 6th seal is not the rapture. There is no rapture mentioned there. Again, as is you habit, you force it in where it does not belong. That is typical of your hermeneutics. You make it up as you go. You force Scripture to say what it doesn't say!
 
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sovereigngrace

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How many times do people need an answer? The destination is NOT IN 1 Thes. You should know all the end times scriptures. Heaven is mentioned here:

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

This is the way postribbers read it:
2 In my Father's house [in heaven] are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to [heaven to] prepare a place for you [in heaven].

3 And if I go
[to heaven] and prepare a place for you [in heaven], I will come again [to the air], and receive you unto myself [in the air]; that where I am [going, on the earth], there [on the earth] ye may be also.

I don't think this is the Author's intent.
Question: WHERE will Jesus be during the days of tribulation?
 
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