Is the Rapture biblical?

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Whenever Jesus Returns, it is good for those who are eagerly waiting and watching for Him, right ?

Absolutely!

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

Non-profit Prophet said:
You’ve been reading too much Tim LaHaye... the scripture says nothing about anyone being “left behind.” It does say that there will be some left after God’s wrath... obviously people who were not under God’s wrath.

Read:
1 Thes. 5:
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

"They" get left behind. They were not ready. They were not "in Christ."

I know there is no scripture that says word for word that someone has no faith in a pretrib rapture that they would be left behind. However, does it have to be word for word? James tells us that someone with no faith can expect nothing from God.

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
Read:
1 Thes. 5:
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

"They" get left behind. They were not ready. They were not "in Christ."

I know there is no scripture that says word for word that someone has no faith in a pretrib rapture that they would be left behind. However, does it have to be word for word? James tells us that someone with no faith can expect nothing from God.

Think about this in view of all Scripture, IF God Permits.

WHen the flood destroyed the sinners , who was left on earth ? (the saved ones were)

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
So our disagreement is only on timing. How interesting. In my mind the ONLY place to find timing on Paul's rapture is Paul himself.

Let us use scriptural terms not extra-biblical man-made Pretrib terms. Raptrure is not biblical. I prefer the biblical phrases 'caught up', 'catching away' or our 'gathering together'.

What happens to the wicked in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 when Jesus comes?
Where in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 does it show the wicked surviving the coming of Christ?
Where does it mention a seven-year tribulation following His return?
Where does it mention any period of time of tribulation after His return?

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
Read:
1 Thes. 5:
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

"They" get left behind. They were not ready. They were not "in Christ."

I know there is no scripture that says word for word that someone has no faith in a pretrib rapture that they would be left behind. However, does it have to be word for word? James tells us that someone with no faith can expect nothing from God.

What happens to those left behind?

"... and they shall not escape."

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

keras said:
But, as we can see, the Devil can convince people of his lies.

Isaiah 29:9-11 If you confuse yourselves, you will stay ignorant, for the Lord has poured on you a spirit of deep stupor and you have no prophets now. The prophetic Word has become for you like the words in a sealed book.

Isaiah 48:6-8 You have heard what I have said; consider it well, it is the truth. From now on, I will show you new things....because your understanding has been blocked.

Isaiah 56:10-11 The watchmen of Israel are blind and dumb. They understand nothing, all of them going their own way and intent on their own gain.

Jeremiah 23:20 The Lord’s anger is not to be turned aside until He has fully accomplished His purposes. In days to come, you will truly understand.

Matthew 11:25....Father, You hide these things from the learned and the wise and reveal them to the uneducated.
Ref. REB. Some verses abridged.

You missed one:
1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Think about this in view of all Scripture, IF God Permits.

WHen the flood destroyed the sinners , who was left on earth ? (the saved ones were)

No one. They were all immediately destroyed. No survivors!

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Let us use scriptural terms not extra-biblical man-made Pretrib terms. Raptrure is not biblical. I prefer the biblical phrases 'caught up', 'catching away' or our 'gathering together'.

What happens to the wicked in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 when Jesus comes?

Where in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 does it show the wicked surviving the coming of Christ?

Where does it mention a seven-year tribulation following His return?

Where does it mention any period of time of tribulation after His return?

{4:17} Deinde nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam
{4:17} Next, we who are alive, who are remaining, shall be taken up quickly together with

Rapture is not a man made term. Don't be afraid of it! Most of the church uses it. What it is called is not important: that it will happen, and when it will happen is important.

"Rapiemur" is from the Latin future passive meaning "we shall be carried away," or "we shall be snatched." Rapiemur is derived from the root verb rapio, which means to carry off or to seize someone or something. The English words “rapt” and “rapture” stem from this Latin verb.

1 above: the wicked are caught in a sudden destruction worldwide earthquake. There will be no place to run or hide. No one will escape this earthquake. However, many will live through it.

2 above: We don't form doctrine from one passage. Such a question leads to errors in doctrine. We know from OTHER scriptures that many will survive this sudden destruction earthquake.

3 above: Where does IT mention...? A seven year tribulation is not found in 1 Thes. Paul was writing of the church and the catching up of the church. The seven years is for the Jews.

4 Above. For information on the tribulation or the 70th week or the 7 years, we go to Revelation which has MUCH information. The 70th week goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16.

Daniel was very clear that the entire 70th week was for HIS PEOPLE, the Jews. The church - that is those caught up as Paul wrote, will not see any part of the 7 years. It is filled with God's wrath and He is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. He will deliver us FROM His wrath.

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
No one. They were all immediately destroyed. No survivors!

There were eight survivors, plus the animals on the ARK.

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
No one. They were all immediately destroyed. No survivors!

What has Noah's flood or Lot's removal from Sodam have to do with the rapture of the church? The answer is, NOTHING. God has no desire to destroy the human race again. Remember the rainbow?

One day you will have to answer the question: where are you going to get the goats? You have killed them all! Where are you going to get the sheep? You will have them all changed and caught up.

What have you done with the tares? The angels will have no tares to gather due to your theories.

Next, where will you find natural people to repopulate the earth during the millennial reign? You will have robbed Jesus of that too.

Can you see why the majority of the church does not buy into such theories?

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

yeshuaslavejeff said:
There were eight survivors, plus the animals on the ARK.

Good.

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
{4:17} Deinde nos, qui vivimus, qui relinquimur, simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam
{4:17} Next, we who are alive, who are remaining, shall be taken up quickly together with

Rapture is not a man made term. Don't be afraid of it! Most of the church uses it. What it is called is not important: that it will happen, and when it will happen is important.

"Rapiemur" is from the Latin future passive meaning "we shall be carried away," or "we shall be snatched." Rapiemur is derived from the root verb rapio, which means to carry off or to seize someone or something. The English words “rapt” and “rapture” stem from this Latin verb.

1 above: the wicked are caught in a sudden destruction worldwide earthquake. There will be no place to run or hide. No one will escape this earthquake. However, many will live through it.

2 above: We don't form doctrine from one passage. Such a question leads to errors in doctrine. We know from OTHER scriptures that many will survive this sudden destruction earthquake.

3 above: Where does IT mention...? A seven year tribulation is not found in 1 Thes. Paul was writing of the church and the catching up of the church. The seven years is for the Jews.

4 Above. For information on the tribulation or the 70th week or the 7 years, we go to Revelation which has MUCH information. The 70th week goes from chapter 8 to chapter 16.

Daniel was very clear that the entire 70th week was for HIS PEOPLE, the Jews. The church - that is those caught up as Paul wrote, will not see any part of the 7 years. It is filled with God's wrath and He is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath. He will deliver us FROM His wrath.

You have no rapture text that teaches a 7 years tribulation and no 7 years text that teaches a rapture. Your whole doctrine is built upon sand. It is man-made. You have nothing! You admit that there is no rapture in Daniel 9. You admit that there is no seven-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4.You admit that there is no rapture mentioned in the book of Revelation. This whole belief is a religious invention from the Jesuits. It has no biblical validity. How can anyone believe it?

You have no actual foundational scripture the teachers what you believe. You have no proof texts.This explains why many of us have abandoned this theory.

yeshuaslavejeff · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
God has no desire to destroy the human race again.

Not by water.
By fire, yes.

All except those who are born again will be destroyed, once for all .....

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
Good.

ALL the elect were rescued; ALL of the wicked were destroyed. This is what happens when Jesus comes. The coming of Christ is climactic.

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13 & Matt 28:19-20).

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corrupt occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

jgr · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
"They" get left behind. They were not ready. They were not "in Christ."

Matthew 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The wicked were taken away in the flood and destroyed.
The righteous, Noah and his family, were left behind and preserved.

Rapturites espouse an inversion of Scripture.

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You have no rapture text that teaches a 7 years tribulation and no 7 years text that teaches a rapture. Your whole doctrine is built upon sand. It is man-made. You have nothing! You admit that there is no rapture in Daniel 9. You admit that there is no seven-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4.You admit that there is no rapture mentioned in the book of Revelation. This whole belief is a religious invention from the Jesuits. It has no biblical validity. How can anyone believe it?

You have no actual foundational scripture the teachers what you believe. You have no proof texts.This explains why many of us have abandoned this theory.

Why would ANYONE expect to find information on the 70th week for Jews, in a rapture text for the church? It is the wrong place to look. Do you understand? These two things are NOT RELATED except they are both found in end times scriptures.

You admit that there is no rapture in Daniel 9. Sorry, but only someone totally lacking in bible knowledge would think of looking in Daniel 9 - a chapter for the Jews and about the Jews, for rapture information that is for the church.

You admit that there is no seven-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4 Again, only a beginning bible student would attempt to find the 7 years for the JEWS in a chapter on the church. It would be looking in the wrong place. Most bible students would know to look elsewhere.

You admit that there is no rapture mentioned in the book of Revelation. Much of Revelation is again for the JEWS! At least 9 chapters are about Daniel's 70th week - which is expressly for the JEWS.

Look, all you are doing is showing the readers that you know very little about the end times scriptures. I recommend more study.

This whole belief is a religious invention from the Jesuits. MYTH

You have no proof texts. Of course I have - but you reject them. That is on you, not me. I have always said, for rapture information, go to Paul's writing. It seems you want to disagree with Paul. Camp out on 1 and 2nd Thes. for a year or two.

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

jgr said:
Matthew 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The wicked were taken away in the flood and destroyed.
The righteous, Noah and his family, were left behind and preserved.

Rapturites espouse an inversion of Scripture.

That is not the point Jesus was making. His point was the suddenness of their destruction. They were living life to the fullest right up to when it began to rain. Same with Lot. They woke up that morning expecting a day just like yesterday. Before the day was out, they were dead. It was SUDDEN, which is why Paul wrote "sudden destruction."

One day like today SUDDENLY the dead in Christ will fly up out of their graves. An instant later a worldwide earthquake will hit. It will catch the world by surprise.

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
What has Noah's flood or Lot's removal from Sodam have to do with the rapture of the church? The answer is, NOTHING. God has no desire to destroy the human race again. Remember the rainbow?

One day you will have to answer the question: where are you going to get the goats? You have killed them all! Where are you going to get the sheep? You will have them all changed and caught up.

What have you done with the tares? The angels will have no tares to gather due to your theories.

Next, where will you find natural people to repopulate the earth during the millennial reign? You will have robbed Jesus of that too.

Can you see why the majority of the church does not buy into such theories?

God speaks to Noah just after he gets out of the ark where all flesh had just been destroyed by a flood. God speaks to him about this, "And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done" (Genesis 8:21).

How was this "done"? Was this by water, fire or war? Was it by water or fire?

By water - by a flood.

That is how God did it. He says that He will never again destroy every thing living by a flood. This is the only message you could take out of this. If He had simply said "neither will I again smite any more every thing living" then you would have an argument. Even then, we would have to remove other explicit passages in Genesis and elsewhere that add further detail to such a un-definite statement. We would also have to disregard the many passages that show all the wicked being destroyed and judged at Christ's return. Thankfully we don't need to go searching elsewhere for clarity and more meat on the bones, it is all in the passage before us. The Lord carefully qualifies His statement saying: "as I have done."

How was this "done"?

By water - by a flood.

Genesis 9:11-13 adds further support to this position, saying, "And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations: I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth."

When Jesus comes He is going to destroy all the wicked with fire. Never again will it be water.

What happened in Sodom and the antediluvian world will happen at Christ’s return, He will eliminate the wicked. God expressly “destroyed them all.” This is the end of the world. What follows is judgment and eternity. You seem to be inventing a company of half-saved half-lost mortal don’t-knows that are going to inherit the kingdom that is introduced at Christ’s climactic Coming. These are unknown to Scripture. You force the rest of Scripture into your understanding of Revelation 20, instead of fitting Revelation 20 into the rest of Scripture.

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
ALL the elect were rescued; ALL of the wicked were destroyed. This is what happens when Jesus comes. The coming of Christ is climactic.

The second coming brings a close to the day of salvation. Repeated Scripture shows that now is the only day of salvation. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). See also Romans 2:4. He was reaffirming that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming. A sign of the end is that the Gospel must “be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). The second coming brings the curtain down on the great commission. Once the ark door closes it is too late (Matthew 25:10-13 & Matt 28:19-20).

The age to come has no room for "mortals" (Luke 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and Revelation 21-22) or the unregenerate (Psalms 37:9-11, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Corinthians 6:9, I Thessalonians 5:2-3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10). This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

John 6:39-44, 54, John 11:21-27, John 12:48, Ephesians 1:10 and Revelation 10:5-7 would seem to suggest that time reaches its fullness at the climactic return of Christ. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Luke 20:34-36, Acts 3:19-21, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 ,1 Peter 1:3-5 and Revelation 21:1-5) all show that the end of the bondage of corrupt occurs when Jesus comes. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed. This would be a strong argument to me that the second coming is “the end.”

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15 shows us that this occurs at the second coming. This is indeed the end of time, the end of corruption, the end of the wicked, the end of sin, the end of death, the end for the devil. It is the beginning of eternity. It is the beginning of perfection. It is the beginning of incorruption. It is the beginning of a new arrangement.

It seems like whatever angle you examine the second coming it appears to be climactic, final and glorious.

ALL of the wicked were destroyed. It does not matter how many times you say it, you will always be wrong. The sheep and goat judgment will come AFTER His coming to Armageddon. The parable of the tares will probably come as He descends.

MANY Jews will be saved by Jesus after He descends. Your theory simply won't work.

The age to come has no room for "mortals" Again this is MYTH. NATURAL people will repopulate the earth.

Repeated Scripture locates the replacement of the current heavens and earth with the new heavens and earth and incorruption at the second coming. MORE MYTH. Most students of the bible know that the new heaven and earth do not come until AFTER the millennial reign of Christ.

It seems everything you write is MYTH. I would advise you to get back to study.

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
Why would ANYONE expect to find information on the 70th week for Jews, in a rapture text for the church? It is the wrong place to look. Do you understand? These two things are NOT RELATED except they are both found in end times scriptures.

You admit that there is no rapture in Daniel 9. Sorry, but only someone totally lacking in bible knowledge would think of looking in Daniel 9 - a chapter for the Jews and about the Jews, for rapture information that is for the church.

You admit that there is no seven-year tribulation in 1 Thessalonians 4 Again, only a beginning bible student would attempt to find the 7 years for the JEWS in a chapter on the church. It would be looking in the wrong place. Most bible students would know to look elsewhere.

You admit that there is no rapture mentioned in the book of Revelation. Much of Revelation is again for the JEWS! At least 9 chapters are about Daniel's 70th week - which is expressly for the JEWS.

Look, all you are doing is showing the readers that you know very little about the end times scriptures. I recommend more study.

This whole belief is a religious invention from the Jesuits. MYTH

You have no proof texts. Of course I have - but you reject them. That is on you, not me. I have always said, for rapture information, go to Paul's writing. It seems you want to disagree with Paul. Camp out on 1 and 2nd Thes. for a year or two.

Your doctrinal theory is manifestly built upon silence. I think you see that! You force your doctrine into text after text where it doesn't exist. No writer or prophet in Scripture knew or taught Pretrib. With this ad-hoc form of hermeneutics you could literally make the Bible say anything ... and indeed that is what Dispies do.

Is the Rapture biblical?

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