Is the Rapture biblical?

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
That is why there are "saints" on earth during the 70th week. God has great mercy and gives people chance after chance. Millions who call themselves "Christian" are not born again and are not going to be caught up. But after they realize they have been left behind, many of them will turn to Jesus with all their heart. They will be a part of the "saints" during the 70th week.

Another group of the "elect" seen in Revelation will be the Jews who WILL - when they SEE HIM - accept Jesus.

You are reading too many Left Behind novels. Where is this in the Bible?

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
5:8 is referring to the 24 elders, NOT THE CHURCH.

8:4 is referring to the PRAYERS of the saints. Some of these prayers could have been prayed years before. Perhaps some of these prayer were prayed by the remnant of chapter 12.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why would John use "remnant" (the rest, or those that remain)? It is simple: the pretrib rapture took out the main load. Only a remnant is left. Could it be those that would not put any faith in a pretrib rapture? Or perhaps some people turned to Christ AFTER the rapture when they discovered they were left behind.

11:18 certainly uses the word "saints," but who is to say they are the church? They are the remnant of chapter 12 - believers that did not believe in a pretrib rapture so were not ready. The church will be in heaven by this time.

13:7 & 11 also uses "saints" but the answer is the same. Just because there are "saints" on earth does not mean that they are "the church." MANY believers will come out of the 7 years.

In other words, just because one reads "saints" is no guarantee that these "saints" are the church. Indeed, when we study ALL the end times scriptures, we discover that the saints seen during the 70th week are only a remnant of the church - those not caught up with the church before the week.

There is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid. It runs completely to the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are trying to explain away every other passage by your opinion of 1 Thessalonians 4. However, I have shown you that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 is climactic, yet you have ducked around the evidence. There are no survivors in that text. There is no 7 years tribulation following it. It is the end of the world. You just bounce to Revelation when cornered, where you admit have no rapture text to sustain your argument.

Where does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 depict survivors? Where does it teach a 7 years tribulation following it?

The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

“The Lord is not slack concerning” what “promise”?

The “promise” under discussion in the narrative – “the promise of his coming.”

We should remember here that the whole context of this reading zeroes in on the matter of “the promise of his coming.” This promise is what this whole narrative is about. To ignore that would cause us to miss the force and meaning of Peter’s message. In fact there are 3 mentions of this “promise” in 2 Peter 3.

I believe this reading is speaking to the elect about the awful fate that will befall the wicked when Jesus comes and the bliss that awaits the righteous at His appearing. However, in the midst of it, Peter inserts comfort and hope reference the fate of the elect who will be spared the awful destruction that will fall at the Lord’s return. The elect are the children of promise – this group are all those that love Christ, they will be rescued before this awful final all-consummating destruction arrives by way of the catching away. When Peter says, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance," he is specifically speaking of the elect or those that are the children of "promise." I think you missed the important word "us-ward." After demonstrating the terror of the day of the Lord, Peter then reassures God's people. This is seen in the letter-head in 2 Peter 1:1, which states, "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." That is the us-ward.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 declares: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

This passage recognizes only two types of person – saved and lost – and conclusively confirms that it is only those that know God and obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ that will survive the second coming. The rest are expressly destroyed. This agrees with Christ’s words in Luke 20:34-36 that the kingdom of God to come which Christ ushers in at His appearing is solely for those that are suitably qualified.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

You are trying to explain away every other passage by your opinion of 1 Thessalonians 4. This is simply NOT true. I take all end times scriptures into account before forming a theory. However, I certainly don't throw out Paul's catching up verse! Paul was the only writer who received revelation of the rapture of the church. Therefore it is critical in forming end time doctrine for the church.

I have shown you that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 is climactic, yet you have ducked around the evidence. There are no survivors in that text. There is no 7 years tribulation following it. It is the end of the world. You just bounce to Revelation when cornered, where you admit have no rapture text to sustain your argument.

Are you being totally fair here? You believe there is only one coming so you read that preconceived idea into this verse.

"then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Question: if an earthquake was worldwide - that is the ground shaking everywhere, could anyone "escape" that shaking? (Perhaps if they were flying at the time!). All who are on the ground cannot escape. They are going to get shook! Did everyone in the great earthquake that caused Japan's tsunami die? No! Many lived through it. Paul is not saying that everyone dies!

Question: how in the world are you going to have people left alive for the sheep and goat judgment when all die the moment Jesus descends? How is there going to be any tares when the parable of the tares plays out?

I therefore submit that "they shall not escape" does not say all are going to die. It only means what it says, they cannot escape the sudden destruction earthquake. For "escape" Strongs says:
to flee out of, flee away
1. to seek safety in flight
2. to escape

If it is a worldwide earthquake, where could one flee to? Where would there be anywhere the ground is not shaking?

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 depict survivors? This is an invalid question. We must consider all end times scriptures to for any theory. Again I ask: where are the goats going to come from for the sheep and goat judgment? In fact, considering your timing of the rapture, where are the sheep (humans in natural bodies) going to come from? Your theory has stolen both the sheep and the goats.

Where does it teach a 7 years tribulation following it? Same answer. The 7 years are for Daniel's people, not the church. Why even expect so mething for the Jews in Paul's letters to the church?

the coming / with them in the clouds There is no touchdown. It is a "coming" according to Paul, but ONLY TO THE CLOUDS. This does not fit Christ's Rev. 19 coming.

the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. Why did Paul include this? Because the rapture will be the TRIGGER for the start of the Day of the Lord. There will be NO TIME between the rapture and the start of the DAY.

For when they shall say, Peace and safety Notice that this whole series of events BEGINS at a time when people are saying peace and safety. How in the world can you expect a time of peace and safety when most of the world's population has died, the sun and stars refuse to shine, all water has turned into blood, disaster after disaster has happened...how can anyone be thinking peace after the 70th week? It does not fit. However, TODAY someone may be thinking peace and safety! The rapture just could be TODAY.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath Paul is hinting strongly that the Day of the Lord is going to be wrath poured out. And that is exactly what John tells us, saying "the day of His wrath."

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” Sorry, but this is not what is written! Go back and look: don't take my word for it! John (backed by the Holy Spirit) starts the day of His wrath in chapter 6. There are events in chapters 7 through 18 that MUST and WILL take place between the day of His wrath beginning and Jesus descending to earth to Armageddon.

HOWEVER: credit where credit is due: Jesus DOES come - but a moment before the DAY starts, only to the air, to call up the dead in Christ first. So there IS a coming, but only to the air and only to get the saints. This is NOT his coming as shown in Rev. 19.

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth. I know what you mean, but you simply don't understand the intent of the Author here. I suspect preconceived glasses clouding understanding again. If an eathquake is worldwide, it would be impossible to escape except by aircraft.

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
There is nothing more unbiblical in this new covenant period than trying to divide up the people of God on the grounds of ethnicity. That is spiritual apartheid. It runs completely to the New Testament plan of God to bring Jew and Gentile together equally in Christ. The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.

It is absolute fact and truth that once people are born again, they are ONE in Christ - no more Greek or Jew spiritually. But if a Jew is born again, His body is still born of a Jewish mom. That does not change. And when a Gentile is born again, their BODY is still the body of a Gentile. When one is born again, ONLY their spirit changes.

So it is very valid to say that the church today is mostly the Gentile church. God is waiting for the fulness of the Gentiles to come in.

It is good that GOD is doing things and not you. I suspect if you were running things, the Jews that are trusting in the Old Covenant would have ZERO chance. God still calls them "elect" and is waiting for the 1/3 that will eventually trust in Jesus. He knows that is not going to happen until they SEE Him and see the nail holes in His hands and feet and ask Him where He was wounded. It is written, they morn when they understand the very one their ancestors put on the cross is their savior and messiah!

It is an absolute fact and truth that God made promises to Israel that He means to keep. The entire 70th week is to completely shatter their faith in their IDF until they know there ONLY HOPE is if God intervenes. Thank God, HE DOES!

It is not a difficult concept: When Israel as a nation refused to accept Jesus as their messiah, God turned to the Gentiles. Ever read about the "time of the Gentiles" and "the fulness of the Gentiles?" It was as if God made a huge parenthesis in the Jewish timeline and inserted the church. A moment after the rapture ends the church age, TIME goes right back to the Jews for THEIR 70th week.

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You are reading too many Left Behind novels. Where is this in the Bible?

I am surprised you don't know this verse:

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

John 19:37
And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

By the way, I have read NONE of the left behind novels.

Davy · Mar 16, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Yes, it implies that.

33 "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." (Luke 12:33-37).

Take note that the Olivet Discourse event here takes place in the Middle of the Tribulation. They are being taken to follow Jesus from out of Heaven so as to fight in the battle (Which will be at the End of the Tribulation).

All that is, is a vain attempt to insert a pre-trib rapture into the Scripture.

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

The 1st 'taken'... is to where Antichrist and his will be. That's who those eagles represent that feast on the dead "carcase"!

Because the pre-trib rapture doctrine has many spiritually drunken, they can't even read the simple Scripture.

Jesus' answer to 'where' the 1st one taken is taken to is to wherever the fowls eat on a dead carcase! How in the world can anyone think that means Christ's Salvation?!

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
...
2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

“The Lord is not slack concerning” what “promise”?

The “promise” under discussion in the narrative – “the promise of his coming.”

We should remember here that the whole context of this reading zeroes in on the matter of “the promise of his coming.” This promise is what this whole narrative is about. To ignore that would cause us to miss the force and meaning of Peter’s message. In fact there are 3 mentions of this “promise” in 2 Peter 3.

I believe this reading is speaking to the elect about the awful fate that will befall the wicked when Jesus comes and the bliss that awaits the righteous at His appearing. However, in the midst of it, Peter inserts comfort and hope reference the fate of the elect who will be spared the awful destruction that will fall at the Lord’s return. The elect are the children of promise – this group are all those that love Christ, they will be rescued before this awful final all-consummating destruction arrives by way of the catching away. When Peter says, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance," he is specifically speaking of the elect or those that are the children of "promise." I think you missed the important word "us-ward." After demonstrating the terror of the day of the Lord, Peter then reassures God's people. This is seen in the letter-head in 2 Peter 1:1, which states, "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." That is the us-ward.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 declares: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

This passage recognizes only two types of person – saved and lost – and conclusively confirms that it is only those that know God and obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ that will survive the second coming. The rest are expressly destroyed. This agrees with Christ’s words in Luke 20:34-36 that the kingdom of God to come which Christ ushers in at His appearing is solely for those that are suitably qualified.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

WHY does the "Day of the Lord" come as a thief in the night? Another verse tells us HE comes as a thief in the night. The truth is, the DAY comes because HE comes as Paul tells us in 1 thes. 5. He comes to catch up the saints - the rapture - which will be the trigger for the DAY.

the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away

Keep in mind that the Day of the Lord is a long, extended period of time. It just may extend from the 6th seal to the new heaven and earth. But sometime in between the 6th seal and the new heaven and earth, the heavens will pass away. One verse says "no place was found for them." My point is, the "passing away" does not have to take place at the beginning of the day.

The “promise” under discussion in the narrative – “the promise of his coming.” It has not been almost 2000 years! I still firmly believe He is coming - twice more.

I believe this reading is speaking to the elect about the awful fate that will befall the wicked when Jesus comes and the bliss that awaits the righteous at His appearing. What really happens when He comes - His coming as shown in Rev. 19? One thing that happens is the battle of Armageddon. Another thing that happens is, Jesus will rescue those that fled when they saw the abomination. From other scriptures, we know that soon to follow will be the sheep and goat judgment, choosing WHO will enter the millennial reign. Sometime as He descends or later, the parable of the tares will play out.

As for the righteous, maybe most of the "saints" you mentioned over and over will have been martyred - beheaded - but raised from the dead. They will probably come with the armies of heaven. Remember, once the millennial reign is started, we, the church, are to be judges.

this group are all those that love Christ, they will be rescued before this awful final all-consummating destruction arrives by way of the catching away. Maybe not! It is written that the saints will be overcome. That means beheaded. However, many JEWs will be alive at His coming to Armageddon. No one knows how many of the remnant of those that love Jesus will be left.

Please show us ANY "catching away" in Rev. 19. Please prove by scripture that the 1 Thes. 4 catching up is really at Armageddon. (No one has ever done this before; maybe you can.)

By the way, show is this all consummating destruction in Rev. 19 when He comes. I find the Battle of Armageddon when He comes. You are mixing up events and timing. The truth is, the 70th week is over at the 7th vial, but Jesus does not come then. He does not come in chapter 17 or 18 either. There is TIME between the 7th vial that ends the week and His coming in chapter 19. how much time? I would guess 30 days while the marriage and supper is taking place in heaven.

When Peter says, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance," he is specifically speaking of the elect or those that are the children of "promise."

Galations 2:8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.

Peter, for the most part, was sent to the Jews.

US-WARD "is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

It seems the us-ward here is referring not only to those born again at that time, but all those who would, in the future, become born again. "Us-ward" then would fit the church.

This passage recognizes only two types of person – saved and lost – and conclusively confirms that it is only those that know God and obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ that will survive the second coming.
Preconceptions are showing through. The church will be coming back WITH Christ on white horses. The church will have been at the marriage and supper. Who knows? We may have swords and may well assisting the angels in the Battle of Armageddon. John does not tell us.
Keep in mind, when Jesus is descending to Armageddon, those in Judea that fled are probably about to be killed in the lost city of Petra. They will be JEWS. In your mind at that moment in time they would be LOST because they have no faith in Jesus. Also there are JEWS being held captive in Jerusalem, and when Jesus touches down, a great valley is formed, and many Jews will escape through the valley. These also would be "lost." Thank God, He will KEEP His promises.

Remember, we don't form doctrine from one passage, but from all.

The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative
Sorry, but the main point Jesus was making was the TIMING: the suddenness of their demise. They got up one morning thinking this would be a day like yesterday - but on that day they all died.

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

Davy said:
All that is, is a vain attempt to insert a pre-trib rapture into the Scripture.

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

The 1st 'taken'... is to where Antichrist and his will be. That's who those eagles represent that feast on the dead "carcase"!

Because the pre-trib rapture doctrine has many spiritually drunken, they can't even read the simple Scripture.

Jesus' answer to 'where' the 1st one taken is taken to is to wherever the fowls eat on a dead carcase! How in the world can anyone think that means Christ's Salvation?!

No one has to insert a pretrib rapture. Paul did that for us, thank you.

AS for the carcases, did you read about the parable of the tares? WHEN was Jesus speaking of? Of course His coming as shown in Rev. 19. This passage has nothing to do with Paul's rapture. Could we then say your post is a red herring?

ViaCrucis · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
It is not a moot point. If these things happened in history, then someone should be able to pinpoint WHEN. Please understand, it would be very difficult to find some future event back in history unless the same exact event will happen twice.

It's a moot point because I'm not arguing about when the "events" mentioned in St. John's Apocalypse take place. It's a moot point because I'm coming from an entirely different hermeneutic. The question of "when do these things happen" is moot, because the text isn't saying, "This will happen, then this will happen". John is seeing visions, like in all apocalyptic literature, biblical or otherwise, the visions contain figurative, symbolic language. I'm not looking to see when a star called wormwood fell to the earth, either in the past or in the future. That's simply not how I read the text.

I don't read the Apocalypse as a list of events happening in history, neither do I read the Apocalypse as a list of events that will happen in the future. I read the Apocalypse as God's promise of Christ's victory to the Church in all times and all places.

Speaking of pinpointing when this or that happens, here, is like asking when Psalm 23 happens. There's an obvious historical context, but the significance that is meaningful for me as a hearer of God's word is God's promise of sustaining me. I can say, "The Lord is my Shepherd, I lack in nothing" because the Psalm here, through Christ, is comfort to my soul even as I walk "in the valley of the shadow of death", as I walk in this world, full of death, even in this mortal body of death, I have Christ as my Good Shepherd, I have the Spirit to bring home to me the faith which keeps me in Christ and sustains me.

When I read St. John's Apocalypse the whole point isn't falling stars or locust-monsters coming out of a bottomless pit, it's God's victory in Jesus, which is ours, now and always, won for us by His death and resurrection as we live here in now in this fallen and unjust world full of beasts, and also on the Last Day, when Christ comes, in glory, with His everlasting kingdom.

As for the precise meaning of a number of St. John's visions? I honestly don't know. And, to be frank, I don't believe anyone who claims they understand every detail from the Apocalypse. And as far as I see it, that's fine. Historically it has been the most complicated, misunderstood, and--theologically--one of the least important books of the Canon. There's a reason why of all the books that were included in the New Testament, the Apocalypse of St. John was the most controversial and disputed among all the ancient fathers of the Church.

-CryptoLutheran

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The problem is: you just repeat what you have been taught This is common among Pretribbers. They do not research the fact for themselves. If they did they would immediately abandon Pretrib. Here are some of my own findings, examining the subject in detail:
.

This is true: I am taught by the Holy Spirit and Jesus, and I certainly repeat what they taught me! For once I can agree with you!

They do not research the fact for themselves. You are mistaken on research. Every time Jesus taught, it was through scripture. The first time He spoke, I was reading Daniel 9:27 and when my eyes and my mind got to the word "midst" Jesus spoke: "You could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation." It took much research to find it, but I did. This is the first time He spoke about Revelation. There were many more times.

If they did they would immediately abandon Pretrib. You are trying to overlay your poor bible study upon pretribbers! We are pretrib BECAUSE we study.

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Dispensationalists argue that the old covenant saints could only experience the Spirit of God “upon” them, not “in” them. But Scripture repeatedly contradicts this contention. In the book of Genesis, we see Pharaoh recognize the Spirit of God residing within Joseph. He acknowledged in Genesis 41:37: “Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?”

Wow! You would take the words of an ungodly man when we have many verses in the bible teaching us otherwise?

What does it really mean "in?" We are body, soul, and spirit. IN WHERE? In which one? If you studied the book of Acts, you would know that the anointing comes UPON when people receive the mighty baptism in the Holy Spirit, but yet it is also called being filled with the spirit. Does this mean the Spirit is inside our human spirit? NO! It is the anointing! It is for our flesh. The Holy Spirit comes UPON for this anointing. Yet, many verses say "filled."

Paul is clear that when one is born again, the Holy Spirit enters the new human spirit as the seal. That indeed is INSIDE the human spirit. No one in the Old Testament could be born again. That experience had to wait for Christ to raise from the dead.

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Isaiah 63:11 speaks of Moses, “Where is he [God] that put his Holy Spirit within him [Moses]?” In Exodus 28:3, we see God instructing Moses: “thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom.” The saints are here described as those who possess the Spirit of God. In Exodus 31:3, the LORD informs Moses regarding Bezaleel, “I have filled him with the spirit of God.” This is repeated in Exodus 31:31. In Exodus 35:21, a company of the children of Israel are set apart for service “every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing.” Here the internal function of the Holy Spirit is seen to be actively at work.

These are explicit statements that challenge the Dispensationalist position. These texts do not merely describe a proximate work of the Holy Spirit but an active internal presence of the Spirit within God’s servants.

Wisdom decrees that Old Testament verses must be understood through the New. Why is this? Because the NEW Explains the old. At the time of these verses, they did not look at man as body, soul and spirit, as Paul wrote. "in" to them may have just meant inside their flesh. We know from the NEW that Moses was "anointed." Anoint From Strongs means:
to smear, anoint, spread a liquid
(Qal)
to smear
to anoint (as consecration)

The anointing is the Holy Spirit UPON. Yet, it is also called being filled.
These verses do NOTHING at all to discredit Dispensationalist thinking.

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Of all that complained in the wilderness, only 2 Israelis over the age of 20 made it into the Promised Land – Joshua and Caleb. Numbers 27:18 tells us, “And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him.” Deuteronomy 34:9 correlates, “Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom.” Numbers 14:24 records: “my servant Caleb … had another spirit with him.”

It was the inward dwelling presence of the Spirit of God under the old covenant that set godly men apart from the religious professors around them. It was the Spirit who enlightened men and it was He who enabled men. Without Him, man was ignorant of God, His truth and His will. Without Him, man was unable to accomplish the purpose of God.

Without much doubt, Joshua and Caleb had a spirit of faith. But then, that comes with the anointing that comes UPON, not "in" the human spirit. Their spirits were DEAD - separated from God. ALL humans were dead in their spirit before Christ arose.

ViaCrucis · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
You are trying to overlay your poor bible study upon pretribbers! We are pretrib BECAUSE we study.

I grew up as a Dispensationalist, in the tradition in which I was raised Dispensationalism was the only thing I knew. I was vaguely aware that there were some people out there that were post-trib or mid-trib or something, but they didn't concern us. I took the entire pre-trib, Dispensationalist thing as a given.

And that's how things were for around the first 19-20 years of my life.

I was positively shocked when I began to interact with other Christians online only to discover that there were a lot of Christians who didn't agree with me. Made no sense, I figured these must be the fringe weirdos my pastor told me about, those mid-tribbers and post-tribbers. So I would quote all the usual proof texts that I had been hammered into me since I was in diapers. But then these other Christians had the audacity to tell me to go and re-read those passages, to really look at them. I was challenged by them to go and read the Bible more. In fact the challenge was very simple, find one place in the Bible where it very clearly and unambiguously says that Christians will be removed from the world before the seven year tribulation.

So that's what I did. I read and read and read. Searched and searched.

Know what I found? Nothing. And, the terrifying thing? Every place in the Bible where I read about Christ's coming, there was nothing about being removed from earth into heaven to escape tribulation. Not only that, I was dumbfounded by all the things I was reading and learning. In those first two decades of my life nobody had ever taught me that there would be a resurrection of the dead. Oh, a rapture, yes, which included the dead. We'd all be transported directly into heaven. But as it had been relayed to me, this was basically souls getting teleported into heaven. That there was a resurrection, just like Jesus was resurrected, that was brand new to me. That discovery, and subsequently finding out that A) My parents, my religious teachers, my church friends, etc had no idea what I was talking about and B) What I was reading in the Bible about the resurrection of the dead was, in fact, what Christians have believed going back to the beginning, as I discovered the historic Creeds, learned more about the early history of the Church, and so on.

That initial shock is what got me to ask questions, to actually begin reading the Bible for myself, studying, learning, doing research. I had taken everything I had been raised to believe as a given, and now I was discovering that maybe my teachers weren't infallible.

I don't reject the Dispensationalist system out of ignorance of Scripture, but because of Scripture. It made no sense to cling to beliefs which had no support in both Scripture and the historic faith of the Christian Church. It made no sense to cling to ideas which simply did not exist before the 1800s.

-CryptoLutheran

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
In Job 32:8 we see the reason why the Old Testament saints needed the Holy Spirit. It is the exact same reason why the New Testament saint need Him: “there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.” Job 33:4 adds: “The spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” We need to see that it the Spirit of God that gives life – both natural and spiritual. Without Him we are deceived, lost and forsaken. It was the Spirit of God that allowed the Old Testament saints to understand and undertake the high and holy things of God.

The Old Testament emphasizes the need of the Spirit of God, just as the New Testament. The reason being: man’s hopeless predicament outside of the Spirit was as pitiful in that era as ours. Did the angel of the Lord not pronounce those famous words in Zechariah 4:6: “Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts”? Pleasing God in any way under the old covenant did not come through ethnic heritage, natural ability, or human striving. It totally came through the enabling power of the Spirit. The Holy Ghost was the necessary help that all men needed to make him alive unto God and pleasing unto Him. That is why Psalm 104:30 tells us: “When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth.”

David cried unto God in Psalm 51:10-12, “Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.” David, like us, was dependent upon the Spirit to strengthen and help in in godly matters.

Psalm 143:10 asks God: “Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground.”

The old covenant saints were as dependent as we are for illumination, direction and empowerment. Bob McCabe explains: “indwelling in the believer is that necessary and progressive work of the Spirit that internally transforms him or her into the renewed image of God” (The Holy Spirit’s Indwelling Ministry in the Old Testament).

2 Corinthians 4:13 records: “We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak.” This is a direct quote from David in Psalm 116:102. 2 Corinthians 4:13 suggests that the very same “spirit of faith” that operated in David in the Old Testament functions in us now. This is further compelling evidence that the Old Testament were as dependent upon the internal workings of the Spirit as we are.

Ezekiel 2:2 personally testified, “the spirit entered into me.” See also Ezekiel 3:24. Micah 3:8 testified, “I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.” The Spirit of God gave the prophet of God the necessary strength in order to operate as a believer and a seer. Daniel 6:3 says of God’s Old Testament servant Daniel, “this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him” (see also 4:8, 9,18, 5:11, 14).

Nehemiah testified of God’s help for Israel in bygone days in Nehemiah 9:20: “You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst.” Nehemiah 9:30 also talks about, “thy spirit in thy prophets.” 1 Peter 1:7-12 repeats this great truth, speaking about the common salvation shared by the New and Old Testament saints: “Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in [Gr. en] them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

The Greek word en here is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” throughout the New Testament. In fact, there are 1,902 instances of such. The Old Testament saints plainly possessed the same Spirit of Christ as the New Testament believers, although, they obviously looked forward, by faith to the promised Redeemer, whereas the New Testament Church now looks back. The Old and New Testament saints, Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into the one harmonious spiritual Israel of God – the Church. This body recognizes no dispensational or ethnic separation at all.

Jesus uses the same Greek word that Peter does to describe the Spirit within believers in the New Testament era. John 14:17 is an example of that. Jesus said: “the Spirit of truth … dwelleth with you, and shall be in [Gr. en] you.” Another similar passage is be found in Romans 8:9: “ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in [Gr. en] you.” The same Spirit that dwelt “in” (en) the Old Testament saints dwells in us today.

God’s elect that existed within Israel when Jesus came were few. But Scripture shows that they indwelt by the Spirit. An angel prophesied unto Zacharias in Luke 1:13-17 that his son-to-be John “shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.” Luke 1:41 records of John’s mother, “Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.” Luke 1:67 records of John’s father, “Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost.” This was all within the old covenant. This was before the cross. This preceded Pentecost.

One cannot avoid the conclusion presented by Paul that there is a solid unitary connection between God’s people in both testaments. The Bible is manifestly one single combined book telling one consistent story to one interconnected people about one central character: Jesus Christ, who came to save one collective elect people. The Old Testament prepared the way for Christ and pointed the ancient believers in the direction of His impending ministry. The New Testament on the other hand shows the arrival, realization and revelation of the Messiah. Both were unified with the quickening power of the Spirit of God.

Hebrews 11:23-26 tells us, “By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.”

Moses refused to run with the crowd. He renounced earthly treasures and worldly privilege of eternal riches and heavenly privilege. He refused to take the easy road. He is shown to be identified with Christ, even back deep in the old covenant period. His salvation came alone through the finished work of Christ on the cross. He simply saw it afar off, but believed by faith.

Old Testament believers are depicted as having faith in the coming Messiah. By faith they are shown to have experienced Christ. It was only in Him that they could have experienced eternal life. There was no other Savior and no other salvation. The Bible is one single book telling one single story about one central character: Jesus Christ. The Old Testament prepares the way for Christ and points the ancient believers in the direction of Christ. The New Testament on the other hand is the realization, arrival and revelation of the Messiah.

The Old Testament saints were saved in the exact same way as we were – by grace, through faith. The Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross by faith; we New Testament saints look back by faith.

The same Holy Spirit that enlightens sinner today and brings them into a saving knowledge of truth, did the same in the Old Testament epoch. Without God’s supernatural intervention upon a stubborn sinful heart, man had no way of moving from death unto life. After all, by regeneration the soul is quickened from death into life (Ephesians 2:1-4). Men’s response to God’s voice and men’s response to the quickening power of Spirit determined whether their ears and eyes would be opened. Those who rejected the illuminating and regenerating work of the Spirit were lost.

Stephen made a very telling comment to the Jews after Pentecost supporting this standpoint, in Acts 7:51-52: “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers.”

Stephen likens the resistance he saw in his day to the quickening power of the Spirit to that of unbelieving Israel back in Old Testament times. When the disciples spoke of “the fathers” they were referring to their Old Testament forefathers. When they spoke of “the prophets” they were talking about the Old Testament men of God that spoke the truth of God. This tells us that the same Spirit operating in the same way was never appreciated by hardened religious Israelis, irrespective of whether it was before or after the cross.

If the born again experience was available under the Old Covenant, they Jesus died in vain. Period and end of story.

The truth was, no one could be born again - get a NEW Human spirit - with the Holy Spirit inside - until Jesus rose from the dead.

iamlamad · Mar 16, 2020

ViaCrucis said:
I grew up as a Dispensationalist, in the tradition in which I was raised Dispensationalism was the only thing I knew. I was vaguely aware that there were some people out there that were post-trib or mid-trib or something, but they didn't concern us. I took the entire pre-trib, Dispensationalist thing as a given.

And that's how things were for around the first 19-20 years of my life.

I was positively shocked when I began to interact with other Christians online only to discover that there were a lot of Christians who didn't agree with me. Made no sense, I figured these must be the fringe weirdos my pastor told me about, those mid-tribbers and post-tribbers. So I would quote all the usual proof texts that I had been hammered into me since I was in diapers. But then these other Christians had the audacity to tell me to go and re-read those passages, to really look at them. I was challenged by them to go and read the Bible more. In fact the challenge was very simple, find one place in the Bible where it very clearly and unambiguously says that Christians will be removed from the world before the seven year tribulation.

So that's what I did. I read and read and read. Searched and searched.

Know what I found? Nothing. And, the terrifying thing? Every place in the Bible where I read about Christ's coming, there was nothing about being removed from earth into heaven to escape tribulation. Not only that, I was dumbfounded by all the things I was reading and learning. In those first two decades of my life nobody had ever taught me that there would be a resurrection of the dead. Oh, a rapture, yes, which included the dead. We'd all be transported directly into heaven. But as it had been relayed to me, this was basically souls getting teleported into heaven. That there was a resurrection, just like Jesus was resurrected, that was brand new to me. That discovery, and subsequently finding out that A) My parents, my religious teachers, my church friends, etc had no idea what I was talking about and B) What I was reading in the Bible about the resurrection of the dead was, in fact, what Christians have believed going back to the beginning, as I discovered the historic Creeds, learned more about the early history of the Church, and so on.

That initial shock is what got me to ask questions, to actually begin reading the Bible for myself, studying, learning, doing research. I had taken everything I had been raised to believe as a given, and now I was discovering that maybe my teachers weren't infallible.

I don't reject the Dispensationalist system out of ignorance of Scripture, but because of Scripture. It made no sense to cling to beliefs which had no support in both Scripture and the historic faith of the Christian Church. It made no sense to cling to ideas which simply did not exist before the 1800s.

-CryptoLutheran

It is amazing how two people can read the same scriptures and come up with two different theories! That is how and why denominations developed. No one was close enough to the Holy Spirit to hear HIS intent on scriptures.

Every place in the Bible where I read about Christ's coming, there was nothing about being removed from earth into heaven to escape tribulation. So strange! I read in 1 Thes. 4 about a coming of our Lord, and I read of a catching up. When I read John 14, I get the idea that Jesus went to heaven to build homes for us there, and when the time comes, will come and get us and take us to those homes. After all, He stays in heaven for the entire 70th week, not returning to earth until Rev. 19.

It is a fact: different people get different ideas out of a single verse. I suspect it must be those dreaded preconceived glasses.

Does Jesus return only once more, or twice more? It cannot be both!

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
You are confusing saints with "the church." Your entire argument is faulted. Many will turn to Christ DURING the 70th week and are called "saints," but may not be a part of "the church."

There is no proof anywhere that people that turn to Christ during the 70th week will become members of the born again church. Yes, "saints," yes people that will love Jesus. Born again? Can you prove that saints during the 70th week will be born again? No one under the Old Covenant was born again. It was impossible. It is just as possible that after the pretrib rapture Paul tells us of, the door to the born again walk may well be closed.

The 70th week is historic, as many have showed you. I have noticed how you have carefully avoided post after post proving that.

The saints are the elect (the ekklessia) In the Old and New Testaments.

Deu 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

Deu 33:3 Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

2Ch 6:41 Now therefore arise, O LORD God, into thy resting place, thou, and the ark of thy strength: let thy priests, O LORD God, be clothed with salvation, and let thy saints rejoice in goodness.

Job 5:1 Call now, if there be any that will answer thee; and to which of the saints wilt thou turn?

Job 15:15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight.

Psa 16:3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.

Psa 30:4 Sing unto the LORD, O ye saints of his, and give thanks at the remembrance of his holiness.

Psa 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

Psa 34:9 O fear the LORD, ye his saints: for there is no want to them that fear him.

Psa 37:28 For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

Psa 50:5 Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

Psa 52:9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

Psa 79:2 The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.

Psa 85:8 I will hear what God the LORD will speak: for he will speak peace unto his people, and to his saints: but let them not turn again to folly.

Psa 89:5 And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints.

Psa 89:7 God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him.

Psa 97:10 Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.

Psa 116:15 Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

Psa 132:9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.

Psa 132:16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

Psa 145:10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

Psa 148:14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD.

Psa 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.

Psa 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.

Psa 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

Pro 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

Dan 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Hos 11:12 Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.

Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
You are confusing saints with "the church." Your entire argument is faulted. Many will turn to Christ DURING the 70th week and are called "saints," but may not be a part of "the church."

There is no proof anywhere that people that turn to Christ during the 70th week will become members of the born again church. Yes, "saints," yes people that will love Jesus. Born again? Can you prove that saints during the 70th week will be born again? No one under the Old Covenant was born again. It was impossible. It is just as possible that after the pretrib rapture Paul tells us of, the door to the born again walk may well be closed.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Act 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

Act 9:32 And it came to pass, as Peter passed throughout all quarters, he came down also to the saints which dwelt at Lydda.

Act 9:41 And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.

Act 26:10 Which thing I also did in Jerusalem: and many of the saints did I shut up in prison, having received authority from the chief priests; and when they were put to death, I gave my voice against them.

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what isthe mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

Rom 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.

Rom 15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.

Rom 15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

Rom 15:31 That I may be delivered from them that do not believe in Judaea; and that my service which I have for Jerusalem may be accepted of the saints;

Rom 16:2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

Rom 16:15 Salute Philologus, and Julia, Nereus, and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints which are with them.

1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

1Co 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

1Co 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

2Co 8:4 Praying us with much intreaty that we would receive the gift, and take upon us the fellowship of the ministering to the saints.

2Co 9:1 For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:

2Co 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;

2Co 13:13 All the saints salute you.

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what isthe breadth, and length, and depth, and height;

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Php 4:22 All the saints salute you, chiefly they that are of Caesar's household.

Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

1Ti 5:10 Well reported of for good works; if she have brought up children, if she have lodged strangers, if she have washed the saints feet, if she have relieved the afflicted, if she have diligently followed every good work.

Phm 1:5 Hearing of thy love and faith, which thou hast toward the Lord Jesus, and toward all saints;

Phm 1:7 For we have great joy and consolation in thy love, because the bowels of the saints are refreshed by thee, brother.

Heb 6:10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Heb 13:24 Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Rev 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Rev 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
If the born again experience was available under the Old Covenant, they Jesus died in vain. Period and end of story.

The truth was, no one could be born again - get a NEW Human spirit - with the Holy Spirit inside - until Jesus rose from the dead.

I just showed you a bunch of OT Scripture that refutes your belief that they did not have the Holy Spirt in them, and you respond by ignoring them all, just articulating what you have been taught. This is becoming a habit! The Bible overrides your Left Behind Novels. It forbids Pretrib!

There is not a more familiar passage in the New Testament for evangelicals than John chapter 3. In it, “a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews” came searching for spiritual guidance to Jesus. Now, we should note, this man couldn’t have had better natural or religious credentials in the light of the Dispensationalist position. Not only was he of Israeli stock, but he also was a leader of the Pharisees. Jesus told him in John 3:5-11, “Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.”

Why did Nicodemus need to be born again, if, according to Dispensationalist writers, he was automatically a chosen child of God through natural birth? The Lord was showing Nicodemus (and us) that favor with God did not (or does not) come through one’s religious standing, an accident of birth or through fulfilling a religious A-Z but rather through a spiritual birth. It involves a spiritual encounter with Christ! Racial status or biological pedigree means nothing with God today.

Whilst Nicodemus had all the natural and religious qualifications a man could ever want, Jesus showed him that that was not enough. The Lord showed him that he needed a spiritual conversion in order to make it to heaven. He showed Nicodemus that his first birth – his natural birth (that of water), was insufficient to inherit the kingdom of God. His physical birth, like the rest of fallen man, was contaminated by the awful blight of sin.

Please note: Nicodemus (an old covenant saint) was rebuked by Christ for not knowing this truth about the new birth. In fact, his religious position (being a learned man of the Law), is presented as a reason why he should have been fully acquainted with it. Basically, He was saying: ‘you being a leader in Israel, should know exactly what I am talking about’. This proves that the new birth was not a New Testament innovation; it has rather been around on earth since the beginning. The whole concept of regeneration (or spiritual birth) therefore occurred before the cross.

sovereigngrace · Mar 16, 2020

iamlamad said:
It is amazing how two people can read the same scriptures and come up with two different theories! That is how and why denominations developed. No one was close enough to the Holy Spirit to hear HIS intent on scriptures.

Every place in the Bible where I read about Christ's coming, there was nothing about being removed from earth into heaven to escape tribulation. So strange! I read in 1 Thes. 4 about a coming of our Lord, and I read of a catching up. When I read John 14, I get the idea that Jesus went to heaven to build homes for us there, and when the time comes, will come and get us and take us to those homes. After all, He stays in heaven for the entire 70th week, not returning to earth until Rev. 19.

It is a fact: different people get different ideas out of a single verse. I suspect it must be those dreaded preconceived glasses.

Does Jesus return only once more, or twice more? It cannot be both!

I too was brought up believing Pretrib, until I read the Bible and realized it wasn't in there. It has to be taught to you. There is a reason why so many Christians are abandoning that error.

Is the Rapture biblical?

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