Is the Rapture biblical?

iamlamad said:

How many times must I write this: John did not get to see the rapture so did not write about it. He did see the raptured church in heaven: the great crowd too large to number.

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Are you referring to the saints who came out of the tribulation described as being before God's throne? Those aren't "raptured", those are the holy martyrs who suffered and died for their faith in Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

sovereigngrace, I am not purposely trying to avoid questions. I am sorry that you think so. I know most people here have preconceived theories that might get in the way of a clear understanding. We must learn to ignore any preconceptions and determine, as much as possible, the intent of the Author in any verse IN CONTEXT.

Anyone can make the scriptures fit their own theory if they are willing to pull verses out of their context. A classic example is pulling the first seal out of its first century context.

ViaCrucis said:

The Apostle never taught a "rapture". He did teach that at Christ's coming the dead would rise, and that those alive at that time would join them in being transformed. But there's nothing in any of St. Paul's letters about Christians being transported to heaven en masse, that's a thoroughly foreign idea to Scripture and to what the Christian Church has believed for the last two thousand years.

-CryptoLutheran

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Why not just tell the truth? It is that difficult that write that Paul wrote that those who are alive and in Christ would not only be changed, but would be CAUGHT UP to meet Him in the air?

Question, WHERE will Jesus be during the 70th week?

ViaCrucis said:

Are you referring to the saints who came out of the tribulation described as being before God's throne? Those aren't "raptured", those are the holy martyrs who suffered and died for their faith in Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

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Yes, that is the group I am referring to. Sorry, but there is not one hint that they are martyred saints. Stop for a moment and THINK:

Which group would be larger: 40 of 50 generations of the dead in Christ added to those who are alive and in Christ and caught up - or those martyred during the 70th week?

Next, Did you not notice that by chapter 7, where John wrote of this large group, He has not yet started the 70th week, much less arrived at the last half of the week where the Beast is revealed?

We must consider the context of all verses before forming a theory.

iamlamad said:

I told you: John never saw the rapture. It is not mentioned as a "rapture" in Revelation, nor did John write anything about a catching up of the church.

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Exactly! That is what most of us have been telling you. It is extra-biblical. It is a man-made doctrine. It was invented by the Jesuits. It does not exist.

However, if you read about the great crowd, too large to number, that is the just-raptured church.

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Not so! That is referring to the dead in Christ in heaven now during the intermediate state.

iamlamad said:

I told you: John never saw the rapture. It is not mentioned as a "rapture" in Revelation, nor did John write anything about a catching up of the church.

However, if you read about the great crowd, too large to number, that is the just-raptured church.

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iamlamad said:

Determining where we are in Revelation is really not that difficult. One could start at the back of the book and ask for each event: "has this event happened yet?" If no, then move towards chapter 1 and stop when you find something that has happened. You will find that the church is at the 5th seal waiting for judgment to begin. The 6th seal events are future - have not happened.

Since the church is still at the 5th seal - martyrs still being added - the rapture MUST come before wrath. And that fits with Paul in 1 thes. He tells us the rapture is just before wrath.

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Revelation is a number of figurative parallels embodying comparable symbolic visions revealing the overall battle between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. John had one vision after the other revealed to him. He reveals a number of parallel recapitulations, not a chronological of historic events. These visions are of a similar nature to that of Peter's symbolic vision re the advance of the Gospel to the Gentiles, or Jacob's ladder, and are therefore to be interpreted symbolically. Like every other New Testament book, it refers to the period running between the first and Second Advents. Significantly, the conclusion of each parallel terminates with a record of the glorious Second Advent, which includes the rescue of His saint and the final destruction of the wicked.

iamlamad said:

Do you really think that God values a city above the people IN the city?

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Absolutely. He didn't have to give us the Kingdom but He did. Jesus died so it could come to be. His Gospel was of the Kingdom, not of selfish man in spite of how they change gospels.

iamlamad said:

Why not just tell the truth? It is that difficult that write that Paul wrote that those who are alive and in Christ would not only be changed, but would be CAUGHT UP to meet Him in the air?

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Caught up to meet Him. Not caught up to get transported into heaven. The consistent teaching of Scripture is that Christ's Parousia is His coming here.

Question, WHERE will Jesus be during the 70th week?

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Your assumption here is that Daniel's 70th week is still future. When Antiochus IV subjugated the Jews in his conquest of Ptolemaic Egypt,

"In those days certain renegades came out from Israel and misled many, saying, “Let us go and make a covenant with the Gentiles around us, for since we separated from them many disasters have come upon us.” This proposal pleased them, and some of the people eagerly went to the king, who authorized them to observe the ordinances of the Gentiles. So they built a gymnasium in Jerusalem, according to Gentile custom, and removed the marks of circumcision, and abandoned the holy covenant. They joined with the Gentiles and sold themselves to do evil.

When Antiochus saw that his kingdom was established, he determined to become king of the land of Egypt, in order that he might reign over both kingdoms. So he invaded Egypt with a strong force, with chariots and elephants and cavalry and with a large fleet. He engaged King Ptolemy of Egypt in battle, and Ptolemy turned and fled before him, and many were wounded and fell. They captured the fortified cities in the land of Egypt, and he plundered the land of Egypt.

After subduing Egypt, Antiochus returned in the one hundred forty-third year. He went up against Israel and came to Jerusalem with a strong force. He arrogantly entered the sanctuary and took the golden altar, the lampstand for the light, and all its utensils. He took also the table for the bread of the Presence, the cups for drink offerings, the bowls, the golden censers, the curtain, the crowns, and the gold decoration on the front of the temple; he stripped it all off. He took the silver and the gold, and the costly vessels; he took also the hidden treasures that he found. Taking them all, he went into his own land." - 1 Maccabees 1:11-24

And a few verses later:

"Two years later the king sent to the cities of Judah a chief collector of tribute, and he came to Jerusalem with a large force. Deceitfully he spoke peaceable words to them, and they believed him; but he suddenly fell upon the city, dealt it a severe blow, and destroyed many people of Israel. He plundered the city, burned it with fire, and tore down its houses and its surrounding walls. They took captive the women and children, and seized the livestock. Then they fortified the city of David with a great strong wall and strong towers, and it became their citadel. They stationed there a sinful people, men who were renegades. These strengthened their position; they stored up arms and food, and collecting the spoils of Jerusalem they stored them there, and became a great menace," - 1 Maccabees 1:29-35

Antiochus made false promises with the Jews, and changed times and seasons and customs, forbidding the Jews their religion. Eventually culminating in the "abomination that causes desolation" mentioned by Daniel,

"Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred and forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege on the altar of burnt offering. They also built altars in the surrounding towns of Judah, and offered incense at the doors of the houses and in the streets. The books of the Law that they found they tore to pieces and burned with fire. Anyone found possessing the book of the covenant, or anyone who adhered to the Law, was condemned to death by decree of the king." - 1 Maccabees 1:54-57

So if you were to ask me where the Lord was during the 70th week, I'd say in heaven, as this is before the Incarnation.

-CryptoLutheran

iamlamad said:

Determining where we are in Revelation is really not that difficult. One could start at the back of the book and ask for each event: "has this event happened yet?" If no, then move towards chapter 1 and stop when you find something that has happened. You will find that the church is at the 5th seal waiting for judgment to begin. The 6th seal events are future - have not happened.

Since the church is still at the 5th seal - martyrs still being added - the rapture MUST come before wrath. And that fits with Paul in 1 thes. He tells us the rapture is just before wrath.

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The Church is on earth right up until the one-and-only future coming of Jesus Christ. Then comes the end of the age/world.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. We are therefore looking at true believers in Christ.

The Church is described in Revelation as the “redeemed” in Revelation 5:9, 14:3 and 14:4.

The Church is also known in Revelation, like elsewhere in Scriptures, as the “brethren” Such references are found in Revelation 6:11, 12:10, 19:10, 22:9.

The Church is referred to in Revelation 17:14 as the “chosen (or elect), and faithful.”

The word rendered “chosen” in the King James Version is the Greek word eklektos, and is the same word used in Matthew and Mark to describe the elect that are gathered unto Christ at His Coming after the tribulation. It is the same word that is used 23 times in the New Testament to denote the redeemed, blood-bought, members of Christ’s Church!

The Church is described as “servants” in Revelation 1:1, 2:20, 7:3, 10:7, 11:18, 19:2, 19:5, 22:3 and 22:6.

The Church is described as those “in / with white robes,” who are washed in the blood of the Lamb in Revelation 3:4, 5, 18, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 13, 14, and 19:8, 14.

The Church is described as “kings and priests” in Revelation 1:6, 5:10 and 20:6.

God’s people are described as “souls” twice in Revelation, both in a heavenly context, both thus relating to the disembodied saints, in Revelation 6:9 and 20:4.

The disembodied saints are also known as “fellowservants” in Revelation 6:11.

The Church is also described as a “woman” in Revelation 12:1,4, 6,13,15,16 and 17.

The Church is also described as “the temple” in Revelation 3:12, 11:1 and 2. Notwithstanding, there are other passages in Revelation that could link the temple to the Church.

The Church in heaven is described in Revelation 14:13 as “the dead which die in the Lord.”

The Church is described in Revelation 15:2 as “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark.”

The Church is also known in Revelation as “he/him that overcometh” (speaking in generic terms) – Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 3:5, 12, 21 and 21:7.

The saints are described in Revelation 16:15 as “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments.”

The Church is also expressed in Revelation 18:4 as “my people,” in Revelation 21:3 as “his people” and Revelation 19:1 as “much people in heaven.”

Revelation 7:9 describes God’s people in heaven as “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.” Revelation 5:9 says: “out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

The Church is also described as “the bride” of Christ in Revelation 18:23, 21:9, 22:17, and similarly as “the Lamb's wife” in Revelation 19:7 and 21:9.

Revelation 12:17, 14:12 and 21:14 describes the Church as “they that do/keep God’s commandments.”

The Church is also described as “the armies which were in heaven” in Revelation 19:14.

Revelation 21:24 describes the Church as “them which are saved.”

Revelation 21:27 describes the Church as “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

iamlamad said:

Yes, that is the group I am referring to. Sorry, but there is not one hint that they are martyred saints. Stop for a moment and THINK:

Which group would be larger: 40 of 50 generations of the dead in Christ added to those who are alive and in Christ and caught up - or those martyred during the 70th week?

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I don't share your belief in a future seven year period called "The Tribulation". Tribulation and suffering has been part of the Church's experience down through the ages. In this vision St. John sees all the holy martyrs.

Next, Did you not notice that by chapter 7, where John wrote of this large group, He has not yet started the 70th week, much less arrived at the last half of the week where the Beast is revealed?

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I'm not a Futurist, so your interpretation of the Revelation as being a chronological account of "the end" isn't one I share. As such we have fundamentally very different ways of reading the text. I simply do not share the underlying assumptions that you are bringing to the text.

We must consider the context of all verses before forming a theory.

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Precisely. And one of the most important pieces of context for St. John's Apocalypse is that it was written to the seven churches in the Roman province of Asia, in the first century, most likely during the reign of Domitian. The context is the oppression of the Roman imperial structures of power against the Church, during this time St. John was in exile, on the island of Patmos, where he received the visions concerning things which happened, were happening, and would shortly happen.

As such, any attempt to make sense of anything in the text needs to be with that context in mind. Which is precisely why I reject the idea that it's a prediction of "the end times". The point of the text isn't to predict a series of events in the future, but to assure Christ's Faithful of the hope and victory they have in Him, even when the world and all its powers come crashing down, Christ is still victorious. He is the One who has risen from the dead, and He is the One who will come again as Judge on the Last Day, and in the end God will make all things new, and there shall be peace and justice forever.

-CryptoLutheran

sovereigngrace said:

Exactly! That is what most of us have been telling you. It is extra-biblical. It is a man-made doctrine. It was invented by the Jesuits. It does not exist.



Not so! That is referring to the dead in Christ in heaven now during the intermediate state.

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Slow down! Not so fast! Just because John did not see it does not mean it did not happen! John saw a vision and in that vision saw EXACTLY what God wanted and chose to show Him. It most certainly does not mean the rapture is bogus.

Look, if you wish to tear 1 Thes. 4 & 5 out of your bible, go right ahead. Meanwhile the church knows there will soon be a catching up and we are ready.

Did you ever notice what James said, that a person that wavers in his or her faith cannot expect to receive ANYTHING from God. I am convinced that the rapture will be the same: for those the BELIEVE His could come tomorrow and catch us up, they have great faith and so will be caught up. But for those that expect to see the man of sin turned into the Beast, they have zero faith that Christ could come tomorrow and catch us up. I suspect posttrib believers fit this category: they may well be left behind.

What am I saying? The catching up IS in your bible - but you cover your eyes with preconceptions so as to avoid what Paul wrote.

You may think John is referring to the dead in Christ still in heaven, but I think you are mistaken. In context, John saw this great crowd right after Paul said his rapture would take place. Therefore I disagree with you.

Have you ever been to a play where then close the curtains between acts? What goes on behind the curtain? They are rearranging the setting to fit the next act. This is exactly what John is doing in Rev. 7. When John gets to Rev. 8, the wrath of God will be manifested in the trumpet judgments. Paul said we are not going to be in God's wrath.

Therefore, before John can get to chapter 8 and the 7th seal, and God's wrath being felt on earth, he must rearrange the set: TWO things must take place before the 7th seal can be opened and any trumpet judgment can come:
1. The 144,000 must be sealed.
2. The church must be safely seen in heaven.

And that is why John did an intermission between the 6th and 7th seals.

I think it is very possible for someone to set their OWN appointment with God's wrath. My only question to them would be, WHY DO IT?

ViaCrucis said:

I don't share your belief in a future seven year period called "The Tribulation". Tribulation and suffering has been part of the Church's experience down through the ages. In this vision St. John sees all the holy martyrs.



I'm not a Futurist, so your interpretation of the Revelation as being a chronological account of "the end" isn't one I share. As such we have fundamentally very different ways of reading the text. I simply do not share the underlying assumptions that you are bringing to the text.



Precisely. And one of the most important pieces of context for St. John's Apocalypse is that it was written to the seven churches in the Roman province of Asia, in the first century, most likely during the reign of Domitian. The context is the oppression of the Roman imperial structures of power against the Church, during this time St. John was in exile, on the island of Patmos, where he received the visions concerning things which happened, were happening, and would shortly happen.

As such, any attempt to make sense of anything in the text needs to be with that context in mind. Which is precisely why I reject the idea that it's a prediction of "the end times". The point of the text isn't to predict a series of events in the future, but to assure Christ's Faithful of the hope and victory they have in Him, even when the world and all its powers come crashing down, Christ is still victorious. He is the One who has risen from the dead, and He is the One who will come again as Judge on the Last Day, and in the end God will make all things new, and there shall be peace and justice forever.

-CryptoLutheran

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My point remains: no one to date has ever pinpointed the time in history for the trumpet and vial judgments.

As a comparison, many people have placed Daniel 11 in history and shown when each verse took place, and who the players were....that is up to verse 36.

I don't think God has lost His ability to make accurate prophecies.

sovereigngrace said:

The Church is on earth right up until the one-and-only future coming of Jesus Christ. Then comes the end of the age/world.

The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

...

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The Church is on earth right up until the one-and-only future coming of Jesus Christ. Then comes the end of the age/world. You can certainly believe this, but this is not according to Paul in 1 and 2 Thes. Neither does it fit other verses.

One must rearrange Revelation to make your theory work. As I have said before, how is ANY posttribber going to make it to the marriage and supper? God puts off the marriage and supper until the Old Testament saints are risen - on the last 24 hour day of the 70th week. Perhaps they are part of the Bride, or perhaps they are guests. Make no mistake, the marriage is for the Bride.

Rev. 19: 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

We have all been given the righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the eyes of the Father, every born again believer is seen as righteous as Jesus is. Verse 8 is talking about born again people: the church. How did the church get to heaven before Jesus coming in power? Very easy to answer: via Paul's pretrib rapture.

iamlamad said:

My point remains: no one to date has ever pinpointed the time in history for the trumpet and vial judgments.

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Which might be relevant if, again, one brings certain assumptions to the text--like that it's detailing some kind of laundry list of things that are going to happen.

But without that assumption it's a moot point.

-CryptoLutheran

sovereigngrace said:

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The Church is described as the “saints” in Revelation 5:8, 8:3, 8:4, 11:18, 13:7, 13:10, 14:12, 15:3, 16:6, 17:6, 19:8 and 20:9.

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5:8 is referring to the 24 elders, NOT THE CHURCH.

8:4 is referring to the PRAYERS of the saints. Some of these prayers could have been prayed years before. Perhaps some of these prayer were prayed by the remnant of chapter 12.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why would John use "remnant" (the rest, or those that remain)? It is simple: the pretrib rapture took out the main load. Only a remnant is left. Could it be those that would not put any faith in a pretrib rapture? Or perhaps some people turned to Christ AFTER the rapture when they discovered they were left behind.

11:18 certainly uses the word "saints," but who is to say they are the church? They are the remnant of chapter 12 - believers that did not believe in a pretrib rapture so were not ready. The church will be in heaven by this time.

13:7 & 11 also uses "saints" but the answer is the same. Just because there are "saints" on earth does not mean that they are "the church." MANY believers will come out of the 7 years.

In other words, just because one reads "saints" is no guarantee that these "saints" are the church. Indeed, when we study ALL the end times scriptures, we discover that the saints seen during the 70th week are only a remnant of the church - those not caught up with the church before the week.

ViaCrucis said:

Which might be relevant if, again, one brings certain assumptions to the text--like that it's detailing some kind of laundry list of things that are going to happen.

But without that assumption it's a moot point.

-CryptoLutheran

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It is not a moot point. If these things happened in history, then someone should be able to pinpoint WHEN. Please understand, it would be very difficult to find some future event back in history unless the same exact event will happen twice.

sovereigngrace said:

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The New Testament uses the term “saint” some 59 times, repeatedly describing Christians who walk in newness of life. We are therefore looking at true believers in Christ.

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That is why there are "saints" on earth during the 70th week. God has great mercy and gives people chance after chance. Millions who call themselves "Christian" are not born again and are not going to be caught up. But after they realize they have been left behind, many of them will turn to Jesus with all their heart. They will be a part of the "saints" during the 70th week.

Another group of the "elect" seen in Revelation will be the Jews who WILL - when they SEE HIM - accept Jesus.

sovereigngrace said:

...


Most of the above are familiar terms used to describe the universal Church of Jesus Christ are found elsewhere in the Bible (Old and New Testament) describing God’s people the Church. These are general terms that are commonly used and perfectly understood by all sensible Christians as describing God’s chosen people throughout the centuries and throughout the nations.

There are many different references throughout the whole book of Revelation to the existence, testimony and endurance of Christians during the tribulation period. These saints are described as those that possess “the faith of Jesus” (Revelation 14:1), and consequently carry “the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 1:2, 9, 12:17, 19:10), and are “the witness of Jesus” (Revelation 20:4). They exhibit the “patience of Jesus” (Revelation 1:9), and many become the “martyrs of Jesus” (Revelation 17:6). Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they?

A passage that ably supports this supposition and locates the Christian in the tribulation period is Revelation 14:12-13, which says, “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.”

The “patience of the saints” here in Revelation 14:12 must surely be linked to the “patience of Jesus” in Revelation 1:9.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Those Christians that carry “the testimony of Jesus” in the tribulation are seen to conquer Satan by “the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony” (Revelation 12:11), again, confirming their sure unitary position within the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ.

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You are confusing saints with "the church." Your entire argument is faulted. Many will turn to Christ DURING the 70th week and are called "saints," but may not be a part of "the church."

There is no proof anywhere that people that turn to Christ during the 70th week will become members of the born again church. Yes, "saints," yes people that will love Jesus. Born again? Can you prove that saints during the 70th week will be born again? No one under the Old Covenant was born again. It was impossible. It is just as possible that after the pretrib rapture Paul tells us of, the door to the born again walk may well be closed.

Frankly, if these aren’t Christians, what are they? If they follow Christ, they are "Christians." But will they become a part of the church? I think not.

The means by which these saints overcome the devil, the world and the flesh during great tribulation is the exact same as that employed by Christians throughout history. Maybe not. Under the New Covenant, people are born again and have the Holy Spirit inside the human spirit with a NEW human spirit. None in the Old Testament had this privilege. Under the Old Covenant, they had to overcome by sheer will power. Since we really don't know if those who turn to Christ during the 70th week will be born again, we can't say they will overcome the same way we overcome today.

I have talked of the Holy Spirit within, but not the Holy Spirit upon as in being anointed by the Holy Spirit. Under the Old, usually only the prophet, priest and king were anointed by the Holy Spirit. Acts 1 says we receive POWER when we receive the Holy Spirit upon. This power is available to all who are born again today, (though few receive it) but will it be available to those who turn to God during the 70th week? John does not tell us so we just don't know.

Believing in a pretrib rapture - or not - affects how believers see many many scriptures. In other words, believing the truth here is critical.

iamlamad said:

The Church is on earth right up until the one-and-only future coming of Jesus Christ. Then comes the end of the age/world. You can certainly believe this, but this is not according to Paul in 1 and 2 Thes. Neither does it fit other verses.

One must rearrange Revelation to make your theory work. As I have said before, how is ANY posttribber going to make it to the marriage and supper? God puts off the marriage and supper until the Old Testament saints are risen - on the last 24 hour day of the 70th week. Perhaps they are part of the Bride, or perhaps they are guests. Make no mistake, the marriage is for the Bride.

Rev. 19: 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

We have all been given the righteousness of our Lord Jesus Christ. In the eyes of the Father, every born again believer is seen as righteous as Jesus is. Verse 8 is talking about born again people: the church. How did the church get to heaven before Jesus coming in power? Very easy to answer: via Paul's pretrib rapture.

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You are trying to explain away every other passage by your opinion of 1 Thessalonians 4. However, I have shown you that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 is climactic, yet you have ducked around the evidence. There are no survivors in that text. There is no 7 years tribulation following it. It is the end of the world. You just bounce to Revelation when cornered, where you admit have no rapture text to sustain your argument.

Where does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 depict survivors? Where does it teach a 7 years tribulation following it?

The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

I mean, the Holy Spirit could not have made it clearer: "they shall not escape." This totally negates the whole Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

2 Peter 3:3-13 tells us: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming [Gr. parousia]? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

“The Lord is not slack concerning” what “promise”?

The “promise” under discussion in the narrative – “the promise of his coming.”

We should remember here that the whole context of this reading zeroes in on the matter of “the promise of his coming.” This promise is what this whole narrative is about. To ignore that would cause us to miss the force and meaning of Peter’s message. In fact there are 3 mentions of this “promise” in 2 Peter 3.

I believe this reading is speaking to the elect about the awful fate that will befall the wicked when Jesus comes and the bliss that awaits the righteous at His appearing. However, in the midst of it, Peter inserts comfort and hope reference the fate of the elect who will be spared the awful destruction that will fall at the Lord’s return. The elect are the children of promise – this group are all those that love Christ, they will be rescued before this awful final all-consummating destruction arrives by way of the catching away. When Peter says, "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance," he is specifically speaking of the elect or those that are the children of "promise." I think you missed the important word "us-ward." After demonstrating the terror of the day of the Lord, Peter then reassures God's people. This is seen in the letter-head in 2 Peter 1:1, which states, "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ." That is the us-ward.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 declares: “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

This passage recognizes only two types of person – saved and lost – and conclusively confirms that it is only those that know God and obey the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ that will survive the second coming. The rest are expressly destroyed. This agrees with Christ’s words in Luke 20:34-36 that the kingdom of God to come which Christ ushers in at His appearing is solely for those that are suitably qualified.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

iamlamad said:

Under the New Covenant, people are born again and have the Holy Spirit inside the human spirit with a NEW human spirit. None in the Old Testament had this privilege. Under the Old Covenant, they had to overcome by sheer will power. Since we really don't know if those who turn to Christ during the 70th week will be born again, we can't say they will overcome the same way we overcome today.

I have talked of the Holy Spirit within, but not the Holy Spirit upon as in being anointed by the Holy Spirit. Under the Old, usually only the prophet, priest and king were anointed by the Holy Spirit. Acts 1 says we receive POWER when we receive the Holy Spirit upon. This power is available to all who are born again today, (though few receive it) but will it be available to those who turn to God during the 70th week? John does not tell us so we just don't know.

Believing in a pretrib rapture - or not - affects how believers see many many scriptures. In other words, believing the truth here is critical.

Click to expand...

The problem is: you just repeat what you have been taught This is common among Pretribbers. They do not research the fact for themselves. If they did they would immediately abandon Pretrib. Here are some of my own findings, examining the subject in detail:

Dispensationalists argue that the old covenant saints could only experience the Spirit of God “upon” them, not “in” them. But Scripture repeatedly contradicts this contention. In the book of Genesis, we see Pharaoh recognize the Spirit of God residing within Joseph. He acknowledged in Genesis 41:37: “Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?”

Isaiah 63:11 speaks of Moses, “Where is he [God] that put his Holy Spirit within him [Moses]?” In Exodus 28:3, we see God instructing Moses: “thou shalt speak unto all that are wise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of wisdom.” The saints are here described as those who possess the Spirit of God. In Exodus 31:3, the LORD informs Moses regarding Bezaleel, “I have filled him with the spirit of God.” This is repeated in Exodus 31:31. In Exodus 35:21, a company of the children of Israel are set apart for service “every one whose heart stirred him up, and every one whom his spirit made willing.” Here the internal function of the Holy Spirit is seen to be actively at work.

These are explicit statements that challenge the Dispensationalist position. These texts do not merely describe a proximate work of the Holy Spirit but an active internal presence of the Spirit within God’s servants.

Of all that complained in the wilderness, only 2 Israelis over the age of 20 made it into the Promised Land – Joshua and Caleb. Numbers 27:18 tells us, “And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay thine hand upon him.” Deuteronomy 34:9 correlates, “Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom.” Numbers 14:24 records: “my servant Caleb … had another spirit with him.”

It was the inward dwelling presence of the Spirit of God under the old covenant that set godly men apart from the religious professors around them. It was the Spirit who enlightened men and it was He who enabled men. Without Him, man was ignorant of God, His truth and His will. Without Him, man was unable to accomplish the purpose of God.

In Job 32:8 we see the reason why the Old Testament saints needed the Holy Spirit. It is the exact same reason why the New Testament saint need Him: “there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.” Job 33:4 adds: “The spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.” We need to see that it the Spirit of God that gives life – both natural and spiritual. Without Him we are deceived, lost and forsaken. It was the Spirit of God that allowed the Old Testament saints to understand and undertake the high and holy things of God.

The Old Testament emphasizes the need of the Spirit of God, just as the New Testament. The reason being: man’s hopeless predicament outside of the Spirit was as pitiful in that era as ours. Did the angel of the Lord not pronounce those famous words in Zechariah 4:6: “Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts”? Pleasing God in any way under the old covenant did not come through ethnic heritage, natural ability, or human striving. It totally came through the enabling power of the Spirit. The Holy Ghost was the necessary help that all men needed to make him alive unto God and pleasing unto Him. That is why Psalm 104:30 tells us: “When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth.”

David cried unto God in Psalm 51:10-12, “Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.” David, like us, was dependent upon the Spirit to strengthen and help in in godly matters.

Psalm 143:10 asks God: “Teach me to do your will, for you are my God; may your good Spirit lead me on level ground.”

The old covenant saints were as dependent as we are for illumination, direction and empowerment. Bob McCabe explains: “indwelling in the believer is that necessary and progressive work of the Spirit that internally transforms him or her into the renewed image of God” (The Holy Spirit’s Indwelling Ministry in the Old Testament).

2 Corinthians 4:13 records: “We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak.” This is a direct quote from David in Psalm 116:102. 2 Corinthians 4:13 suggests that the very same “spirit of faith” that operated in David in the Old Testament functions in us now. This is further compelling evidence that the Old Testament were as dependent upon the internal workings of the Spirit as we are.

Ezekiel 2:2 personally testified, “the spirit entered into me.” See also Ezekiel 3:24. Micah 3:8 testified, “I am full of power by the spirit of the LORD, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.” The Spirit of God gave the prophet of God the necessary strength in order to operate as a believer and a seer. Daniel 6:3 says of God’s Old Testament servant Daniel, “this Daniel was preferred above the presidents and princes, because an excellent spirit was in him” (see also 4:8, 9,18, 5:11, 14).

Nehemiah testified of God’s help for Israel in bygone days in Nehemiah 9:20: “You gave your good Spirit to instruct them. You did not withhold your manna from their mouths, and you gave them water for their thirst.” Nehemiah 9:30 also talks about, “thy spirit in thy prophets.” 1 Peter 1:7-12 repeats this great truth, speaking about the common salvation shared by the New and Old Testament saints: “Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the spirit of Christ which was in [Gr. en] them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.”

The Greek word en here is overwhelmingly interpreted “in” throughout the New Testament. In fact, there are 1,902 instances of such. The Old Testament saints plainly possessed the same Spirit of Christ as the New Testament believers, although, they obviously looked forward, by faith to the promised Redeemer, whereas the New Testament Church now looks back. The Old and New Testament saints, Jew and Gentile alike, have now been graciously merged together into the one harmonious spiritual Israel of God – the Church. This body recognizes no dispensational or ethnic separation at all.

Jesus uses the same Greek word that Peter does to describe the Spirit within believers in the New Testament era. John 14:17 is an example of that. Jesus said: “the Spirit of truth … dwelleth with you, and shall be in [Gr. en] you.” Another similar passage is be found in Romans 8:9: “ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in [Gr. en] you.” The same Spirit that dwelt “in” (en) the Old Testament saints dwells in us today.

God’s elect that existed within Israel when Jesus came were few. But Scripture shows that they indwelt by the Spirit. An angel prophesied unto Zacharias in Luke 1:13-17 that his son-to-be John “shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.” Luke 1:41 records of John’s mother, “Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.” Luke 1:67 records of John’s father, “Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost.” This was all within the old covenant. This was before the cross. This preceded Pentecost.

One cannot avoid the conclusion presented by Paul that there is a solid unitary connection between God’s people in both testaments. The Bible is manifestly one single combined book telling one consistent story to one interconnected people about one central character: Jesus Christ, who came to save one collective elect people. The Old Testament prepared the way for Christ and pointed the ancient believers in the direction of His impending ministry. The New Testament on the other hand shows the arrival, realization and revelation of the Messiah. Both were unified with the quickening power of the Spirit of God.

Hebrews 11:23-26 tells us, “By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.”

Moses refused to run with the crowd. He renounced earthly treasures and worldly privilege of eternal riches and heavenly privilege. He refused to take the easy road. He is shown to be identified with Christ, even back deep in the old covenant period. His salvation came alone through the finished work of Christ on the cross. He simply saw it afar off, but believed by faith.

Old Testament believers are depicted as having faith in the coming Messiah. By faith they are shown to have experienced Christ. It was only in Him that they could have experienced eternal life. There was no other Savior and no other salvation. The Bible is one single book telling one single story about one central character: Jesus Christ. The Old Testament prepares the way for Christ and points the ancient believers in the direction of Christ. The New Testament on the other hand is the realization, arrival and revelation of the Messiah.

The Old Testament saints were saved in the exact same way as we were – by grace, through faith. The Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross by faith; we New Testament saints look back by faith.

The same Holy Spirit that enlightens sinner today and brings them into a saving knowledge of truth, did the same in the Old Testament epoch. Without God’s supernatural intervention upon a stubborn sinful heart, man had no way of moving from death unto life. After all, by regeneration the soul is quickened from death into life (Ephesians 2:1-4). Men’s response to God’s voice and men’s response to the quickening power of Spirit determined whether their ears and eyes would be opened. Those who rejected the illuminating and regenerating work of the Spirit were lost.

Stephen made a very telling comment to the Jews after Pentecost supporting this standpoint, in Acts 7:51-52: “Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers.”

Stephen likens the resistance he saw in his day to the quickening power of the Spirit to that of unbelieving Israel back in Old Testament times. When the disciples spoke of “the fathers” they were referring to their Old Testament forefathers. When they spoke of “the prophets” they were talking about the Old Testament men of God that spoke the truth of God. This tells us that the same Spirit operating in the same way was never appreciated by hardened religious Israelis, irrespective of whether it was before or after the cross.