JIMINZ

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I haven't said that. The Great Commission was not only for the Jews. There are 3 groups of people in our understanding but the Bible only speaks about two of these. There are: 1) Jews (strictly Judaists) formerly from the House of Judah, children of Jacob. 2) Gentile Israelites (who were not Jews but were children of Jacob), 3) Gentile non-Israelites.
I believe the whole Bible addresses the first 2 groups - those who were the children of Jacob. And it was Jesus' mission to reunite these 2 groups back into the one united House of Israel. The Samaritan woman at the well is in the 2nd group. She was not a Jew but she was a descendant of Jacob - so she was a Gentile Israelite.

As I see it, when the terminology of the Bible begins to be changed, then anything can be said.

There is no mention of Gentile Jews (Israelite's), only the term Gentile, and the mention of the Isles of the Gentiles these peoples are clearly not Gentile Israelite's.

If your belief is, there were only two groups spoken of in the Bible, then there is an exclusion of the Gentile Non Israelite
 
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Murray J

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That particular commission was completed by the disciples. Read the rest of the chapter.

The greater commission was clearly to preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, many if not most of whom had already migrated into Europe and Britain, far beyond the reach of the other commission.

But not beyond the means of the disciples to reach them. And Jesus said they would not have gone to all the cities of Israel before He returned. (Now a question - when he said 'Israel' here, did he mean the land or the people? ie to all the cities in the land of Israel or to all the cities where Israelites lived.

But whatever he meant, Jesus would come before they got to them all. So he must have returned before they all died. And certainly before Caiaphas the High Priest died because Jesus told him he would see Jesus coming in the clouds. (Math 26:64)
 
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JIMINZ

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The word translated Gentiles is ethnos, probably better translated Nations or Peoples. Do you mean the apostate Jew now or back then? Back in Jesus' generation, the apostate Jew (and apostate non-Jewish Israelite) who did not receive Christ as Saviour perished as John 3:16 tells us.

These people, no mention of Jews Israelite's of any kind.
G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

G1672
Ἕλλην
Hellēn
hel'-lane
From G1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.

Every mention of Gentiles is in the form of G-1484 minus 5 which are G-1672
These are all non-Jews
 
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Murray J

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As I see it, when the terminology of the Bible begins to be changed, then anything can be said.

There is no mention of Gentile Jews (Israelite's), only the term Gentile, and the mention of the Isles of the Gentiles these peoples are clearly not Gentile Israelite's.

If your belief is, there were only two groups spoken of in the Bible, then there is an exclusion of the Gentile Non Israelite

Before I address the exclusion, I would like to speak about the word ethnos (Greek, translated variously nation or gentile meaning Nation or People Group.) Its equivalent in the Old Testament is goy (variously translated nation or gentile.)

The New Testament says there were Judaists (Jews who practised Judaism) and Ethnos (other People Group.)

The Jews were a nation of people (ethnos) but the distinction was between the Jewish nation and other nations. Yahweh Elohim said to Abraham: "I will make of you a great Nation." If we translated that 'a great Gentile' it would make no sense. That's why it's better not to use the word Gentile and to use Nation (or People Group) instead.

When Jacob was born, there were no such people as Jews. Jacob had 12 sons and one of them was Judah and the word Jew comes from his name. I wish they had spelt it in English Ju and not Jew because then the origin would have been so much clearer. It's much clearer in other languages. eg in German the masculine is Jude and the feminine is Judin. In French Juif and Juive. In Spanish Judio and Judia.

Israel divided sadly and it split into two Houses - the House of Israel (northern Israel) and the House of Judah (southern Israel.) Southern Israel, the Judahs, became the Jews. The northerners were not Jews. So here (in the Old Testament) we have 2 distinct groups of people - Jews and Not Jews - but both descendants of Jacob.

Over the centuries, the Lord had words to say to each group. The prophets often either spoke to the House of Judah or to the House of Israel, usually about things they were doing wrong. The Lord despaired often with His People Israel. However, Jeremiah prophesied in Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah."

Because Yahweh loved His People so much, he had a plan and it was to bring back together the 2 Houses - Israel and Judah. Confirmed in Hebrews 8:8. He didn't have a plan for any other people groups - only these 2 Houses. These are who the Biblle is about. So when we get texts like John 3:16 we can see that this is all about the plan. For Yahweh so loved His People (His world) that he sent Jesus, their Messiah to see through this plan. And he achieved it.

So, to return to the exclusion question. Yahweh Elohim was the God of the descendants of Jacob. These were His People. In the context of the Old Testament and the teachings of Jesus, Jesus came for Yahweh's people Israel.

So in the way you have addressed the question, the answer would be that Yes, the plan of Yahweh excluded people from other nations who were not descendants of Jacob (ie Israelites.) (I surely wish it had included others but I have to accept it did not.) They were not in the plan - they were not in either of the 2 Houses.

It was to the people of the 2 Houses that the apostles and Paul and other disciples took the gospel of their Messiah. Because that was the plan of Yahweh.
 
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Murray J

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These people, no mention of Jews Israelite's of any kind.
G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

G1672
Ἕλλην
Hellēn
hel'-lane
From G1671; a Hellen (Grecian) or inhabitant of Hellas; by extension a Greek speaking person, especially a non-Jew: - Gentile, Greek.

Every mention of Gentiles is in the form of G-1484 minus 5 which are G-1672
These are all non-Jews
Yes, that's exactly as I have been saying. These ones from the nations (Gentiles) were not Jews. But we still need to apply the context of the whole of scripture.

Say biblical Israel comprised 100 descendants of Jacob. Of these 100, 60 might be Jews and the other 40 non-Jews. So all Jews were Israelites but not all Israelites were Jews. How could Yahweh reach the 40 of His People who were not Jews? And where were they? They were living among the Nations. He would have to send out some of His faithful to find them and bring them back into the fold.

This is the context of both the Old and New Testaments.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Hos 1:11 Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head,

This has yet to be fulfilled. Ezekiel 37 suggests that it won't be until the millennial rule of Christ.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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I haven't said that. The Great Commission was not only for the Jews. There are 3 groups of people in our understanding but the Bible only speaks about two of these. There are: 1) Jews (strictly Judaists) formerly from the House of Judah, children of Jacob. 2) Gentile Israelites (who were not Jews but were children of Jacob), 3) Gentile non-Israelites.
I believe the whole Bible addresses the first 2 groups - those who were the children of Jacob. And it was Jesus' mission to reunite these 2 groups back into the one united House of Israel. The Samaritan woman at the well is in the 2nd group. She was not a Jew but she was a descendant of Jacob - so she was a Gentile Israelite.

:oldthumbsup: Bullseye!
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Yes, that's exactly as I have been saying. These ones from the nations (Gentiles) were not Jews. But we still need to apply the context of the whole of scripture.

Say biblical Israel comprised 100 descendants of Jacob. Of these 100, 60 might be Jews and the other 40 non-Jews. So all Jews were Israelites but not all Israelites were Jews. How could Yahweh reach the 40 of His People who were not Jews? And where were they? They were living among the Nations. He would have to send out some of His faithful to find them and bring them back into the fold.

This is the context of both the Old and New Testaments.

At this time the 'prodigal' son is the descendants of Judah, as the rest of Israel as well as many true gentiles actually comprises the 'fold'.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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But whatever he meant, Jesus would come before they got to them all. So he must have returned before they all died. And certainly before Caiaphas the High Priest died because Jesus told him he would see Jesus coming in the clouds. (Math 26:64)

From what I can determine from a word study of Matthew 26:64-65 Jesus caused Caiaphas, at that very moment (hereafter), to see in his 'mind's eye' Jesus coming in power and glory. Which would explain why Caiaphas was so upset and distraught that he 'rent' his garment.
 
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Murray J

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Don't tell me you include Gentiles as part of the "all the children of Jacob"? Did they come from Jacob?

Yes and yes. Gentiles=Nations/Peoples. Some people in the non-Jewish nations were descended from Jacob. For example, was the Samaritan woman at the well a Jew? No, she was not. She was a non-Jew. So if she was not a Jew, she was something else. But she was also a descendant of Jacob because she tells us that. See John 4:9-12.
 
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Murray J

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From what I can determine from a word study of Matthew 26:64-65 Jesus caused Caiaphas, at that very moment (hereafter), to see in his 'mind's eye' Jesus coming in power and glory. Which would explain why Caiaphas was so upset and distraught that he 'rent' his garment.

That's an interesting interpretation of what Jesus said under oath.

The same word 'see' is also used for when the angels told the apostles to go to Galilee to see Jesus. And when the 500 saw the risen Jesus. And many other similar passages where Jesus was seen. Were all these just in the 'mind's eye' and not actually real?
 
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Murray J

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At this time the 'prodigal' son is the descendants of Judah, as the rest of Israel as well as many true gentiles actually comprises the 'fold'.
Sorry I don't understand your point. Please clarify.
The prodigal son was a member of the Lord's family. He went away from it but realised he had sinned and came back and the Father accepted him back into the family. He was a descendant of Jacob.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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That's an interesting interpretation of what Jesus said under oath.

The same word 'see' is also used for when the angels told the apostles to go to Galilee to see Jesus. And when the 500 saw the risen Jesus. And many other similar passages where Jesus was seen. Were all these just in the 'mind's eye' and not actually real?

I base my interpretation on the meaning of the word "hereafter" which means immediately; at this moment. Jesus was telling Caiaphas that he would see, or envision, Jesus in glory at that very moment.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Sorry I don't understand your point. Please clarify.
The prodigal son was a member of the Lord's family. He went away from it but realised he had sinned and came back and the Father accepted him back into the family. He was a descendant of Jacob.

My point is that the Jews are 'prodigal' (note the semi-quotes) at this time in history. They have not returned to their Father's favor.

* Semi-quotes are often used when the term has an other-than-literal meaning.
 
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Yes and yes. Gentiles=Nations/Peoples. Some people in the non-Jewish nations were descended from Jacob. For example, was the Samaritan woman at the well a Jew? No, she was not. She was a non-Jew. So if she was not a Jew, she was something else. But she was also a descendant of Jacob because she tells us that. See John 4:9-12.

You are not addressing my question. Samaritans are half Jews so I can agree with you.

What about Americans, Chinese, Malays, Indians? Are the non Jews among these also children of Jacob?
 
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JosephZ

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Mark 16:15
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Based on Paul's writings, wouldn't you say that mission has already been accomplished?

“If you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.” (Colossians 1:23)

But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” (Romans 10:18)

“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ... ...according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;” (Romans 16:25-26)
 
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JIMINZ

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Based on Paul's writings, wouldn't you say that mission has already been accomplished?

Yes I would.
I have said a number of times that "Everything" which needed to be accomplished had been accomplished.


“If you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.” (Colossians 1:23)

But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” (Romans 10:18)

“Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ... ...according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;” (Romans 16:25-26)

Are you trying to convince me or yourself?
 
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Murray J

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I base my interpretation on the meaning of the word "hereafter" which means immediately; at this moment. Jesus was telling Caiaphas that he would see, or envision, Jesus in glory at that very moment.

Ok. Is that the same for Nathaniel in John 1:51? "Truly, truly, I say to you, Hereafter you shall see Heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man."

Or Math 26:29 where Jesus tells His apostles: "I will not henceforth drink of the fruit of the vine until..."

The implication appears to be in all the 14 texts where the phrase is used to be 'from now until the thing happens.'
John 13:19 From now (henceforth) I tell you before it comes, so that when it happens you may believe that I am.
John 14:7 If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also. And from now on (henceforth) you know Him and have seen Him.
Math 23:39 For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on (henceforth) until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."
Math 26:64 Jesus said to him, You said it. I tell you more. From this time (henceforth) you shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of the heavens."
 
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Murray J

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My point is that the Jews are 'prodigal' (note the semi-quotes) at this time in history. They have not returned to their Father's favor.

* Semi-quotes are often used when the term has an other-than-literal meaning.

I am not addressing this time in history. The Bible doesn't speak of it.
 
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