The fatal flaw of Universalism

Der Alte

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Happily, the end of the Bible is not the end of the story, for we see far ahead of Revelation 22 in the fifteenth chapter of First Corinthians, where Revelation 21:4 is supported by I Corinthians 15:26 - "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." Verse 25 had already stated that "all enemies" would be put under the feet of Jesus the Christ. Would those enemies not include being unjust or filthy? Yes, so Rev. 22:11 is swept aside in the End.
Nonsense! That is a typical heterodox ploy, just rearrange verses however you want to to make scripture say what you want it to.
.....I can see the seven churches, revelation was written to, sitting around their assemblies saying e.g. "Paul is going to write an epistle to the church at Corinth, that we're going to get by an by, which says 'the last enemy to be destroyed is death' so the 8 groups of people John said were going to be cast into the second death won't really die but will raised as pure as the driven snow" or words to that effect.
.....John never says anything which supports UR, I wonder why God inspired John, who was one of the 12, to get everything so wrong.
Here is how Tertullian understood Rev 21:8. No mention of universal reconciliation. Wait a minute I know you are going to quote a few "experts'" over at Tentmaker which trump anything I post.

Tertullian [(a.d. 200-250)] VII. On Modesty.
Chap. XIX. In short, this Apocalypse, in its later passages, has assigned “the infamous and fornicators,” as well as “the cowardly, and unbelieving, and murderers, and sorcerers, and idolaters,” who have been guilty of any such crime while professing the faith, to “the lake of fire,” (Rev_21:8) without any conditional condemnation. For it will not appear to savour of (a bearing upon) heathens, since it has (just) pronounced with regard to believers, “They who shall have conquered shall have this inheritance; and I will be to them a God, and they to me for sons;” and so has subjoined: “But to the cowardly, and unbelieving, and infamous, and fornicators, and murderers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, (shall be) a share in the lake of fire and sulphur, which (lake) is the second death.” Thus, too, again “Blessed they who act according to the precepts, that they may have power over the tree of life and over the gates, for entering into the holy city. Dogs, sorcerers, fornicators, murderers, out!” (Rev_22:14, Rev_22:15) - of course, such as do not act according to the precepts; for to be sent out is the portion of those who have been within.

Tertullian IX. De Fuga in Persecutione.
7. And then what does He allot to the fearful? “He who will value his life more than Me, is not worthy of Me; and he who takes not up his cross and follows Me, cannot be My disciple.” (Mat_10:37, Mat_10:38) Last of all, in the Revelation, He does not propose flight to the “fearful,” (Rev_21:8) but a miserable portion among the rest of the outcast, in the lake of brimstone and fire, which is the second death.

 
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Lazarus Short

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Nonsense! That is a typical heterodox ploy, just rearrange verses however you want to to make scripture say what you want it to.

Oh, I suppose I could just quote the entire Biblical text, with the portions favorable to my views in bold. Or, I could mention the many translations/versions without "Hell." Der Alter, if you sit back and think about it, you'd realize that just about everyone on this forum rearranges verses, and your comment above is just one of your standard ploys to dismiss the comments of another poster.
 
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Hillsage

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Oh, I suppose I could just quote the entire Biblical text, with the portions favorable to my views in bold. Or, I could mention the many translations/versions without "Hell." Der Alter, if you sit back and think about it, you'd realize that just about everyone on this forum rearranges verses, and your comment above is just one of your standard ploys to dismiss the comments of another poster.
That ploy is used constantly. Calling the kettles black and failing to realize you’re just a black pot. :doh:
 
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Der Alte

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Oh, I suppose I could just quote the entire Biblical text, with the portions favorable to my views in bold. Or, I could mention the many translations/versions without "Hell." Der Alter, if you sit back and think about it, you'd realize that just about everyone on this forum rearranges verses, and your comment above is just one of your standard ploys to dismiss the comments of another poster.
Versions/translations are irrelevant. Many "versions" are by one person and reflect the assumptions/presuppositions of the author.
You are wrong about rearranging verses. For example I quote Jesus speaking in Matthew 25:46 but a UR-ite will say that Jesus didn't really mean eternal punishment because John said Jesus is the savior of the world 1 John 4:14. What is wrong with that?
 
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Lazarus Short

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Versions/translations are irrelevant. Many "versions" are by one person and reflect the assumptions/presuppositions of the author.
You are wrong about rearranging verses. For example I quote Jesus speaking in Matthew 25:46 but a UR-ite will say that Jesus didn't really mean eternal punishment because John said Jesus is the savior of the world 1 John 4:14. What is wrong with that?

Other "versions" were translated by committees, a group of people who have been defined as a creature with at least six legs...and no brain. I have seen good and bad examples from individuals and from groups. No English Bible is perfect, but some are really not worth the bother.

My comment about rearranging verses was that most everyone does it, but then you distract. What is wrong with that? It is this: Not every relevant verse on the subject has been consulted, only two.

You know, it's OK to give a direct answer instead of trying to move the discussion to an area you feel comfortable in.
 
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Der Alte

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Other "versions" were translated by committees, a group of people who have been defined as a creature with at least six legs...and no brain. I have seen good and bad examples from individuals and from groups. No English Bible is perfect, but some are really not worth the bother.
The NIV was translated by a committee from many countries . So it is not an American Bible it is not a British Bible etc. My first Greek professor Dr. Roger Omanson was on the original NIV committee. He spoke about the difficulties e.g. one scholar was reluctant to change some verses because he had sermons based on the KJV. I can verify for myself whether any word was or was not correctly translated.
My comment about rearranging verses was that most everyone does it, but then you distract. What is wrong with that? It is this: Not every relevant verse on the subject has been consulted, only two.
My comment went right over your head. I gave an example of how UR-ites quote 1-2 verses trying to nullify what other verses literally say. Want me to give some more examples?
You know, it's OK to give a direct answer instead of trying to move the discussion to an area you feel comfortable in.
Was that direct enough for you?
 
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Saint Steven

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Oh, I suppose I could just quote the entire Biblical text, with the portions favorable to my views in bold. Or, I could mention the many translations/versions without "Hell." Der Alter, if you sit back and think about it, you'd realize that just about everyone on this forum rearranges verses, and your comment above is just one of your standard ploys to dismiss the comments of another poster.
I posted this on another topic. (as you know) It might be helpful here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).
 
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Lazarus Short

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I posted this on another topic. (as you know) It might be helpful here.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."

St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5).

Yes, I read that. Now, so many years later, to be straight with this forum, you must state that you believe in the Nicene Creed. I declined, so as not to put my Christian belief in a box, just as my father refused to swear an oath to the Bible at a Mason-dominated union hall.
 
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Der Alte

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I posted this on another topic. (as you know) It might be helpful here.
One of the most common biblical manuscripts used to make our modern English translations is known today as the Nestle Text. Yet it was Prof. Eberhard Nestle himself who warned us in his Einfhrung in die Textkritik des griechischen Testaments: "Learned men, so called Correctores were, following the church meeting at Nicea 325 AD, selected by the church authorities to scrutinize the sacred texts and rewrite them in order to correct their meaning in accordance with the views which the church had just sanctioned."
St. Jerome wrote: "They write down not what they find but what they think is the meaning; and while they attempt to rectify the errors of others, they merely expose their own" (Jerome, Epist. lxxi.5)
.
Two guys about 1470 years apart say the NT was deliberately mistranslated, with no, zero evidence so let's throw out our New Testaments.
 
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Lazarus Short

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The NIV was translated by a committee from many countries . So it is not an American Bible it is not a British Bible etc. My first Greek professor Dr. Roger Omanson was on the original NIV committee. He spoke about the difficulties e.g. one scholar was reluctant to change some verses because he had sermons based on the KJV. I can verify for myself whether any word was or was not correctly translated.

My comment went right over your head. I gave an example of how UR-ites quote 1-2 verses trying to nullify what other verses literally say. Want me to give some more examples?

Was that direct enough for you?

Direct enough this time, but no, you did not go over my head - I just ignored your intent, but I did mention that every relevant text should be consulted. That is why I checked out the KJV from cover to cover...and found it wanting. OK, yes, I see what you are doing, and IF the "everlasting" and "eternal" in the Matthew verse are true it might be a problem. Bear with me if I'd rather keep "savior or the world" and have doubts about "everlasting," "eternal" and "hell."
 
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Lazarus Short

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Two guys about 1470 years apart say the NT was deliberately mistranslated, with no, zero evidence so let's throw out our New Testaments.

...or find a better New Testament. Lots to choose from.
 
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Der Alte

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...or find a better New Testament. Lots to choose from.
What constitutes a "better New Testament?" Wait, let me guess a "better New Testament" is one that supports UR assumptions/presuppositions?
Do you have any graduate studies in Greek? If not, how do you know if the Greek is correctly translated or not? You don't, as every other UR I have interacted with on this forum, your standard is if it supports UR teaching it is correct, if not then it is wrong.
 
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Der Alte

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Direct enough this time, but no, you did not go over my head - I just ignored your intent, but I did mention that every relevant text should be consulted. That is why I checked out the KJV from cover to cover...and found it wanting. OK, yes, I see what you are doing, and IF the "everlasting" and "eternal" in the Matthew verse are true it might be a problem. Bear with me if I'd rather keep "savior or the world" and have doubts about "everlasting," "eternal" and "hell."
As I said in me previous post your standard for what constitutes a correct translation is if it supports UR teaching it is good.
It would be great if you were indeed consulting "every relevant text" but you are not. What you are doing is cherry picking versions trying find one or more that supports UR. That is your standard.
 
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Lazarus Short

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As I said in me previous post your standard for what constitutes a correct translation is if it supports UR teaching it is good.
It would be great if you were indeed consulting "every relevant text" but you are not. What you are doing is cherry picking versions trying find one or more that supports UR. That is your standard.

I find it odd that you claim to know Greek so well, but can be so mistaken with English. I state that I have checked every relevant text, and having done the KJV cover to cover, I think I have that covered. Yet, you deny it, knowing so little about me or what I do. Did you notice that I don't actually cherry pick versions, but that I almost always quote from the KJV? What else are you making up?
 
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Der Alte

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I find it odd that you claim to know Greek so well, but can be so mistaken with English. I state that I have checked every relevant text, and having done the KJV cover to cover, I think I have that covered. Yet, you deny it, knowing so little about me or what I do. Did you notice that I don't actually cherry pick versions, but that I almost always quote from the KJV? What else are you making up?
I think I already answered this somewhere. Unless you read Greek no you have not "checked every relevant text." Get a Greek NT with critical apparatus and see the different manuscripts the scholars consulted in determining the correct translation. Here is an example from a text online. It references about 13 separate mss. In a Greek NT with critical apparatus all these MSS and other notes are at the bottom of virtually every page.
upload_2020-3-17_10-0-21.png

As I say repeatedly, versions are irrelevant unless the author(s) explain why they chose a particular definition over another.
From what I have seen on this forum heterodox religious groups select versions simply because a particular version supports their doctrinal assumptions/presuppositions.
.....I have asked repeatedly what makes a translation "literal?" How does someone who does not know Hebrew or Greek know that a particular version is "literal?" What I observe is UR-ites accept as "literal" any version that supports UR. That is the only requirement.
 
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FineLinen

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God IS the Author & Finisher of all of His endeavors. What He Authors as Aitios He brings to perfect completion as Teleioo.

Unfortunately

There is a "fatal flaw" in such expression of grandeur.

Most of what God begins, He is unable to complete in perfection due to mitigating circumstances? ? ?

Perhaps pas (all) should be replaced with tis (some)?
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
God IS the Author & Finisher of all of His endeavors. What He Authors as Aitios He brings to perfect completion as Teleioo.
Unfortunately
There is a "fatal flaw" in such expression of grandeur.
Most of what God begins, He is unable to complete in perfection due to mitigating circumstances? ?
Perhaps pas (all) should be replaced with tis (some)?
upload_2020-3-18_10-3-23.png
 
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FineLinen

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The fatal flaw (s) of the Restitution of the ta pante continues.

That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου παν γονυ καμπσηι — hina en tōi onomati Iēsou pan gonu kampsēi). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω — kamptō old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα — hina Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.

Under the earth (καταχτονιων — katachthoniōn). Homeric adjective for departed souls, subterranean, simply the dead. Here only in the N.T.

Should confess (εχομολογησηται — exomologēsētai). First aorist middle subjunctive of εχομολογεομαι — exomologeomai with ινα — hina for purpose.

Lord (Κυριος — Kurios). Peter (Acts 2:36) claimed that God made Christ “Lord.” See also 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Corinthians 12:3; Romans 10:9. Kennedy laments that the term Lord has become one of the most lifeless in the Christian vocabulary, whereas it really declares the true character and dignity of Jesus Christ and “is the basis and the object of worship.”

Note:

The worship by the radical pas of every being, in every dimension (including the underworld) is EN/IN the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. The radical all!
 
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Lazarus Short

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I think I already answered this somewhere. Unless you read Greek no you have not "checked every relevant text." Get a Greek NT with critical apparatus and see the different manuscripts the scholars consulted in determining the correct translation. Here is an example from a text online. It references about 13 separate mss. In a Greek NT with critical apparatus all these MSS and other notes are at the bottom of virtually every page.
View attachment 273294
As I say repeatedly, versions are irrelevant unless the author(s) explain why they chose a particular definition over another.
From what I have seen on this forum heterodox religious groups select versions simply because a particular version supports their doctrinal assumptions/presuppositions.
.....I have asked repeatedly what makes a translation "literal?" How does someone who does not know Hebrew or Greek know that a particular version is "literal?" What I observe is UR-ites accept as "literal" any version that supports UR. That is the only requirement.

From the notes you quoted, I see:

"...speaks rather strongly in favor of..."

"...acknowledges the possibility..."

"...could be either..."

"...prefers the former..."

"...in my opinion..."

"...it is unclear..."

I know you love scholarship, but it seems to me that the scholars have build for themselves an alternate reality full of the hedged, full-of-possibility-but-short-of certainty language I hear on the "Ancient Aliens" television show. I have learned to step elsewhere, for both scholarship and ancient aliens.

Regarding versions, do the orthodox religious groups not do the same, choose a version which supports orthodoxy? Of course they do.
 
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Der Alte

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FineLinen said:
The fatal flaw (s) of the Restitution of the ta pante continues.
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ινα εν τωι ονοματι Ιησου παν γονυ καμπσηι — hina en tōi onomati Iēsou pan gonu kampsēi). First aorist active subjunctive of καμπτω — kamptō old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ινα — hina Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.
Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective verses out-of-context. Everything in red is nonsense the word kampto does not carry that meaning.
.....Yes every knee will bow, some willingly through genuine love and acceptance. But others will be enemies on their knees forced to bow and acknowledge Jesus is lord.

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Mark 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Luke 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Acts of the apostles 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Hebrews 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
None of these verses say that these enemies on their knees knowingly, willingly acknowledge the majesty and power of Jesus and the get up an d become disciples.
.....Here is an OT example of enemies being made a footstool.

Joshua 10:16 But these five kings fled, and hid themselves in a cave at Makkedah.
Joshua 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Joshua 10:23 And they did so, and brought forth those five kings unto him out of the cave, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, and the king of Eglon.
Joshua 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings. And they came near, and put their feet upon the necks of them.
Joshua 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
This is what happens to the enemies of Jesus.
 
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