Whose will prevails?

DamianWarS said:

We have no capacity on our own to do righteousness as everything we do is tainted. In order to do righteousness or be righteous we must be sanctified through Christ first. But even in this we still may choose to go against God and engage in sinfulness where there are no redemptive models. Without Christ the acts have no redemptive power, only through Christ may our choices be redeemed.

We still have a choice to follow God and be on his team where he redeems us or we may reject God and his will he desires. Our autonomy doesn't sanctify, only Christ does but that doesn't mean we don't have the capacity to do what is right and wrong.

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According to Paul in Rom. 3:10-18, we (the unregenerate) do not have the capacity to do what is right in the sight of God, since doing right in God's sight takes faith in Christ to initiate, and that involves real personal relationship with God. Therefore the unregenerate are all in the condition described there. We all were there at one time, before God brought us to life by the gospel message. Paul is clear about this also in Eph. 2: "We all were once walking according to the course of this world, according to the spirit that now works among the disobedient, and were by nature children of wrath."

Therefore your view of man's natural autonomy is opposed to what Paul teaches. According to man's autonomy, the idea that a person can choose right and wrong is limited to man's corrupt assessment of what is right and wrong. IOW, "we" (i.e. the unregenerate natural human) can choose between right and wrong only from man's viewpoint and corrupt assessment. But from God's viewpoint, it's all wrong, and Jesus Himself called all His followers "evil." In Isaiah we read "all our righteousness is as filthy rags," and Jeremiah writes "the heart is deceitful above all else, and desperately wicked, and who can know it?"

The idea that the sanctification of Christ, the Spirit, and the word of God to us merely improves our ability to commit righteous acts, is a doctrine of demons. The Bible teaches that the sanctification of the human spirit by God is a radical reversal of man from wickedness to godliness. I'm just saying, don't get the wrong idea about how good you think you are, and how good you think your choices can be. Jesus said, "apart from Me you can do nothing." It means you can do nothing righteous.
TD

tdidymas said:

According to Paul in Rom. 3:10-18, we (the unregenerate) do not have the capacity to do what is right in the sight of God, since doing right in God's sight takes faith in Christ to initiate, and that involves real personal relationship with God. Therefore the unregenerate are all in the condition described there. We all were there at one time, before God brought us to life by the gospel message. Paul is clear about this also in Eph. 2: "We all were once walking according to the course of this world, according to the spirit that now works among the disobedient, and were by nature children of wrath."

Therefore your view of man's natural autonomy is opposed to what Paul teaches. According to man's autonomy, the idea that a person can choose right and wrong is limited to man's corrupt assessment of what is right and wrong. IOW, "we" (i.e. the unregenerate natural human) can choose between right and wrong only from man's viewpoint and corrupt assessment. But from God's viewpoint, it's all wrong, and Jesus Himself called all His followers "evil." In Isaiah we read "all our righteousness is as filthy rags," and Jeremiah writes "the heart is deceitful above all else, and desperately wicked, and who can know it?"

The idea that the sanctification of Christ, the Spirit, and the word of God to us merely improves our ability to commit righteous acts, is a doctrine of demons. The Bible teaches that the sanctification of the human spirit by God is a radical reversal of man from wickedness to godliness. I'm just saying, don't get the wrong idea about how good you think you are, and how good you think your choices can be. Jesus said, "apart from Me you can do nothing." It means you can do nothing righteous.
TD

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We may choose Christ or not choose Christ. We and our actions are only deemed righteous under Christ and by our own power have no capacity to be righteous and our actions regardless of what they are cannot be called righteous without Christ. Thus we cannot choose "right" on our own because without Christ there is no such thing, at best we may mirror righteousness but without Christ it is counted as a loss. Our autonomous will doesn't mean we sanctify ourselves in our actions of right over wrong it means we may choose to reject God or choose to accept him which the latter ushers in the righteousness from Christ.

Terms of right and wrong are ambiguous and may not be practical in this conversation. We may speak of right actions as things like feeding the poor or paying taxes but ultimately, as Paul puts it, we cannot do right things without Christ. This is true for spiritual righteousness but it is not true for more practical applications of right and wrong which is often defined without God (you may look it up in a dictionary if you want).

So we are autonomous in that we may do all manner of things labeled all sorts of ways and all without following Christ and all is not counted as righteousness, however the fact that we may choose the wrong path points to autonomy. We may also choose to follow Christ and our actions may be redeemed through him and counted as righteous and this may be an example of surrendering our autonomous will over to God. There is still a choice and for many it is a constant internal struggle.

DamianWarS said:

We may choose Christ or not choose Christ. We and our actions are only deemed righteous under Christ and by our own power have no capacity to be righteous and our actions regardless of what they are cannot be called righteous without Christ. Thus we cannot choose "right" on our own because without Christ there is no such thing, at best we may mirror righteousness but without Christ it is counted as a loss. Our autonomous will doesn't mean we sanctify ourselves in our actions of right over wrong it means we may choose to reject God or choose to accept him which the latter ushers in the righteousness from Christ.

Terms of right and wrong are ambiguous and may not be practical in this conversation. We may speak of right actions as things like feeding the poor or paying taxes but ultimately, as Paul puts it, we cannot do right things without Christ. This is true for spiritual righteousness but it is not true for more practical applications of right and wrong which is often defined without God (you may look it up in a dictionary if you want).

So we are autonomous in that we may do all manner of things labeled all sorts of ways and all without following Christ and all is not counted as righteousness, however the fact that we may choose the wrong path points to autonomy. We may also choose to follow Christ and our actions may be redeemed through him and counted as righteous and this may be an example of surrendering our autonomous will over to God. There is still a choice and for many it is a constant internal struggle.

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Yes, it's an internal struggle, a spiritual war. The fact is, the Bible says "the whole world is under the control of the evil one." This is the statement that shows unregenerate man's true spiritual condition. Unless God interrupts an individual's life with spiritual grace enough to regenerate that individual, then the war for choosing life is lost. "Under the control of the evil one" means that no person will ever choose Christ if left on their own. Therefore God must act, and act He does.

So then, your idea that a person has the wherewithall to choose Christ without regeneration is self-defeating and contradictory. You say that an autonomous will doesn't sanctify, yet to accept Christ is an action of sanctification, because faith in Him justifies us. Autonomous will cannot sanctify, yet to choose Christ is a sanctifying act. Do you see how your idea is contradictory, that autonomous will is able to accept Christ? We do not accept Christ by autonomy, but by the gift of God's grace. It means that God works our will to accept Christ. This is to the detriment of autonomy and to the edification of our spirit and life.

God acts in us and changes our identity from Satan's to Christ's. Before this regeneration we are under Satan's control, in bondage to him, doing his will, and it means being fully committed to resisting the Spirit and rejecting Christ. But after God's working of regeneration, we are set free from that bondage and placed into Christ, in which God works His will in us, and as a result we willingly accept Christ. Faith is the work of God, as Jesus declares "this is the work of God, to believe in Him who He sent." So God uses the gospel message, which is the hope for reconciliation in Christ, to display His love and thus conquer us, and this is how He wins the war against our autonomy.
TD

tdidymas said:

Yes, it's an internal struggle, a spiritual war. The fact is, the Bible says "the whole world is under the control of the evil one." This is the statement that shows unregenerate man's true spiritual condition. Unless God interrupts an individual's life with spiritual grace enough to regenerate that individual, then the war for choosing life is lost. "Under the control of the evil one" means that no person will ever choose Christ if left on their own. Therefore God must act, and act He does.

So then, your idea that a person has the wherewithall to choose Christ without regeneration is self-defeating and contradictory. You say that an autonomous will doesn't sanctify, yet to accept Christ is an action of sanctification, because faith in Him justifies us. Autonomous will cannot sanctify, yet to choose Christ is a sanctifying act. Do you see how your idea is contradictory, that autonomous will is able to accept Christ? We do not accept Christ by autonomy, but by the gift of God's grace. It means that God works our will to accept Christ. This is to the detriment of autonomy and to the edification of our spirit and life.

God acts in us and changes our identity from Satan's to Christ's. Before this regeneration we are under Satan's control, in bondage to him, doing his will, and it means being fully committed to resisting the Spirit and rejecting Christ. But after God's working of regeneration, we are set free from that bondage and placed into Christ, in which God works His will in us, and as a result we willingly accept Christ. Faith is the work of God, as Jesus declares "this is the work of God, to believe in Him who He sent." So God uses the gospel message, which is the hope for reconciliation in Christ, to display His love and thus conquer us, and this is how He wins the war against our autonomy.
TD

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You describe a will of the enemy and a will of the God but there is no will of self. We are just embodiments of one of the wills and absent is the will of self. Christ tells us to follow him we must deny our self and it is that autonomous self I speak of.

A victim does not save themselves because they grab the hand reaching for them but they still may choose to reject it and perish. Our actions have no capacity to sanctify in themselves and we may reach desperately grasping but without Christ nothing is there. In choice we have the capacity to reject salvation or accept it.

God ultimately has authority over all things, yet there is an enemy so there must be a permissive characteristic that allows good and evil to co-exist. Ultimate autonomy is impossible and there is only 1 in control however since in practice we see a different picture either God is schizophrenic or we are in a season where such things are permitted and so autonomy is not to express power over God but rather a system where we may reject or accept God in our actions, those actions are nothing without God so do not and cannot save and it is always God who does the saving part.

Rom 1 shows us an image of depravity by way of choice and deceit and unrightouesness from their own hearts and a release from God into their own depravity. God does not manufacture these choices but he releases us into our own ways if we so desire.

DamianWarS said:

You describe a will of the enemy and a will of the God but there is no will of self. We are just embodiments of one of the wills and absent is the will of self. Christ tells us to follow him we must deny our self and it is that autonomous self I speak of.

A victim does not save themselves because they grab the hand reaching for them but they still may choose to reject it and perish. Our actions have no capacity to sanctify in themselves and we may reach desperately grasping but without Christ nothing is there. In choice we have the capacity to reject salvation or accept it.

God ultimately has authority over all things, yet there is an enemy so there must be a permissive characteristic that allows good and evil to co-exist. Ultimate autonomy is impossible and there is only 1 in control however since in practice we see a different picture either God is schizophrenic or we are in a season where such things are permitted and so autonomy is not to express power over God but rather a system where we may reject or accept God in our actions, those actions are nothing without God so do not and cannot save and it is always God who does the saving part.

Rom 1 shows us an image of depravity by way of choice and deceit and unrightouesness from their own hearts and a release from God into their own depravity. God does not manufacture these choices but he releases us into our own ways if we so desire.

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God already released us to our own ways at the fall of Adam and Eve. The image of depravity by way of man's choice and deceit and unrighteousness from their own hearts, and a "release" from God into their own depravity - is the plight of every natural unregenerate person. "There is none righteous, no not one." It appears to me you just don't believe what the words say.

You claim that there is only 1 in control, yet scripture says "the whole world is under the control of the evil one." Do you think there might be something called primary and secondary causes? And perhaps a tertiary cause? It makes me wonder if you believe what scripture says, or if you believe more in your own idea which looks humanistic to me. The Bible says "by grace are we saved through faith, and not of ourselves." "Not of ourselves" - there is no "saving part" and "deciding part" as you claim. It is all of God, and all of His grace, according to what Paul teaches. Read Eph. 2:5 carefully, and in context.

It only appears that you have the capacity to accept or reject salvation by your autonomy. But you're not looking deeply into the "law of liberty" (Ja. 1:25). Everyone who believes the gospel will be saved, because they will choose to follow Christ's commands, and thus prove themselves born of God - John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." But everyone who rejects the offer of salvation in Christ prove they are "under the control of the evil one."
TD

tdidymas said:

God already released us to our own ways at the fall of Adam and Eve.

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You need to flesh out "our own ways" because you seem to only allow room for the enemy's will or God's but no room for our own way. This is the autonomous will I speak of.

God is all powerful so ultimately has control over all things and is sovereign over all things but the fact things happen outside of his will is proof in autonomy of systems in creation by design.

DamianWarS said:

You need to flesh out "our own ways" because you seem to only allow room for the enemy's will or God's but no room for our own way. This is the autonomous will I speak of.

God is all powerful so ultimately has control over all things and is sovereign over all things but the fact things happen outside of his will is proof in autonomy of systems in creation by design.

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Until God sets us free by way of regeneration of spirit, man is enslaved to the will of Satan. This condition is called "the sinful nature." Paul writes "the god of this world [Satan] has blinded the eyes of the unbelieving [natural man] so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ." "Cannot see" - is a statement of inability. IMO you just don't believe the plain language of what Paul wrote.
TD

Man Is A Free Moral Agent

Just What Do You Mean ... MAN IS A FREE MORAL AGENT!

ONCE I read a story about the so-called "free will of man," and it goes something like this. A certain infidel was reported to have raised his hand and dared God, if there be a God, to bring it down. Now the case was such, the story goes, that the infidel was bald, and there was a fly buzzing around which at that very moment landed on this bald pate and tickled it, and without hesitation down came the hand and swatted the fly. Thus God had answered the fool according to his folly, not by a mighty act of omnipotence, but by the seemingly insignificant weakness of a little fly. Now, this infidel's public verbal defiance of God was prompted by a desire for fame and notoriety; this he inherited from his human nature. Alone on an island in the middle of the ocean he would never have done such a thing. Next, his baldness was not an act of his own will, for man does not will to be bald, with the top of his head exposed to the elements. Then we see how God used this man's will against itself. He willed to hold up his hand, but the tickle of the fly was far more momentous in his life than the existence of God, and so while he willed to hold up his hand, he also willed to swat the fly, and God, setting man's own will against itself, defeated itself. How true is the word, "O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walks to direct his steps" (Jer. 10:23). You have probably heard it said throughout all of your life, that MAN IS A FREE MORAL AGENT. Let me call attention to the fact that the phrase "free moral agent" is not a Scriptural one, any more than the term "rapture" is Scriptural. Free moral agency is simply a theological expression, man-manufactured for his own convenience, and like most human inventions, and extra-biblical terminology, is not the truth at all. But briefly let us examine these three words: free moral agent.

1. An AGENT is an actor, one who is able to act or perform.

2. A FREE agent is one who can act as he pleases without any restraint of any kind placed upon him.

3. A free MORAL agent is one who is free to act as he pleases and without any restraint on all moral issues, i.e. questions involving the qualities of right and wrong.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1