IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

Kermos

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Who will counsel the One who knows all things (Isaiah 40:13-17, Romans 11:34-36)? NO MAN (John 4:25, John 16:30, John 21:17)! Yet, self-willed people (2 Peter 2:9-10) think they can counsel God about invalid portions of the Word of God, such as "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and we who believe in Jesus through the Apostle John's word (John 17:20). The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6). Lord Jesus explaines "the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34), but to the self willed people who daringly contradict the Word of God "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS" (Matthew 7:23).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!
 
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Kermos

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It’s useless. If a Calvinist is in charge, they allow murder, like Calvin. If not, they just call others nasty names.
That’s what Calvinist do pretty much. They’re saved no matter how they behave.
He makes him call others names too. They’re predestined to do everything they do. How convenient!!
God is in charge, but you do not know God because you claim to choose God, but God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
 
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Kermos

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They were given the choice to eat of two trees, the tree of Life or the Tree of Death. They chose death because they thought they knew better than God.

But Israel clearly did choose God, repeatedly.
Gen25v31But Jacob said, “Sell me your birthright as of this day.” 32And Esau said, “Look, I am about to die; so what is this birthright to me?” 33Then Jacob said, “Swear to me as of this day.”
Jacob wanted the birthright promises that God had given to Abraham, Isaac and now belonged Esau. Esau was indifferent, but Jacob/Israel knew their worth.
I don't expect you to see it with your blind Calvinist eyes.

Utter windbag nonsense, not connected to anything I said or believe in.

Of course Jesus died only once, I have argued that fact with many people, particularly with Catholics who make him a perpetual sacrifice in their masses.

Of course our names are written in the Lamb's book of life, before the world was made.

The point I was making is that the blood of the lamb applied to all believers from Adam onwards. Just as our names were written before the foundation of the world, so was Jesus's sacrifice written before the foundation of the world.

There you go AGAIN adding to scripture, Francis Drake.

No place in scripture, NO PLACE, is "choice" nor "chose" recorded about eating from the "tree of life" or "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Your words of "choice" and "chose" that add to scripture are included in "They were given the choice to eat of two trees, the tree of Life or the Tree of Death. They chose death because they thought they knew better than God".

Genesis 25:31-33 does not include the Hebrew word for "choose". Only actions are represented in the account. Action is a synonym for fruit.

Since God knows the names of all the saints in all time for we saints are recorded in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world, then man has NO say in being saved for God established all to be saved from the foundation of the world.

This is Christian teaching, and may God open your heart to the Truth (John 14:6).
 
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Kermos

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In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you defiantly claim to "debunk" the Word of God Who says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which indicates salvation for there is no limitation on the choosing in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

All of your "debunk"s are from your additions to and deletions from scripture, so your "debunk"s only mean that you persist in doctrine of delusion of imposing human choice toward God into the Word of God.

God's salvation is being saved from the wrath of God, but you don't have salvation because your claim of choosing God denies the inherent quality of the Word of God Who says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which indicates salvation for there is no limitation on the choosing in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Only a self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) thinks that choice towards God is not a work of man.

I love you, so I do not want to see you fall into the pit.

As soon as you wrote "Ability to choose was given to Adam in the Garden of Eden" you added to scripture AGAIN because no place in scripture says that Adam have the ability to choose.

And your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you have no idea what love really is.

1 Timothy 2:3 indicates nothing about choice towards God nor free will.

1 Timothy 2:5-6 indicates nothing about choice towards God nor free will.

In the 1 Timothy passages, you seem to be trying to add choice toward God by your self willed imagination, AGAIN.

BTW, Francis Drake, your self willed assertion about "who gave Himself as a ransom for all" leads to a serious problem for you becuase it would mean nobody needs to make a choice towards God that you claim is required for a person according to your self willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) theology of which your theology indicates that not everyone chooses Jesus.

There is more the 1 Timothy than you understand, Francis Drake, for the Apostle Paul wrote "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

You call the One True God "an evil monster", so the Word of God says "by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37).

May Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28), raise you from the dead to life eternal!

This has already been debunked many times over from John6 and elsewhere.

Hilarious. Whenever I have used words that don't actually appear in a scripture like choice or choose, even when the context justifies it, you condemn it completely, ranting on and on and on and on about it, post after post after post.
Now you've just dug a big hole for yourself because neither Salvation, Saved or sanctification appear anywhere in the whole of John15.
So using your own methodology, John 15 is nothing to do with salvation and you are just adding to scripture.
Thanks for providing the bullets to shoot you down @Kermos. It was entertaining.

Debunked

Now I'm wicked.
What happened to brotherly love? Oh I forgot, Calvinists always murdered people they disagree with.

I don't think you know the meaning of that word @Kermos. You've done nothing but spout vile threats and curses throughout this thread.

I'm a Calvinist, God made me do it! Lol

Such rank hypocrisy.

If your god creates people specifically preprogrammed for eternal life with zero choice, then they were never ever in danger of eternal damnation.

Therefore your concept of "salvation" is meaningless and void, as he is not being "saved" from any danger or threat.

The only people heading for eternal damnation are the ones your tyrant god creates for that purpose. They are the only ones who need salvation, but your cruel God wants them to suffer.

Only a mentally challenged person would imagine that answering a choice is a work.

Ability to choose was given to Adam in the Garden of Eden. To imagine otherwise is just daft.

There you go again, calling me wicked. You claimed to love both me and @Dorothy Mae, yet you can't help the malice and vitriol that spews from your mouth.

Debunked again and again.
The false god you serve is an evil monster.

@Kermos insists that God/Jesus alone makes the choice of who gets saved and who goes to damnation, but how does that tally with Paul's thinking?
1Tim2v3This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
God clearly wants all men to be saved, and he alone can make it happen, so why did God's plan fail so abysmally?

And Jesus was given as a ransom for all mankind, not just the few.
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6the One having given Himself as a ransom for all......
So if Jesus wants all men saved, and has paid the price for all to be saved, then why aren't all men saved. What has happened to stop them?
 
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Kermos

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@Francis Drake and @Dorothy Mae (since you seem to write in agreement with Francis Drake)

You in your self will try to endow the if-then construct with the intrinsic attribute to convey ability in your daring self-willed attempt to disembowel God of God's exclusive intrinsic attribute to save man from the wrath of God.

In linguistics, logic, semantics, and reality, an IF-THEN construct imposes a conditionl expression and a predicate, for example, if ACTION then RESULT; moreover no conveyance of ability exists intrinsically within the if-then construct.

God reigns in the salvation of man exclusively (John 15:16, John 15:19), and all glory for the Salvation of man is God's alone (Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8).

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you attempt to steal (Exodus 20:15) the glory of God with your claimed work of a choice toward God thus daringly elevating yourself to god over the One True God by your claim that God must comply with your choice towards God (Exodus 20:3) of which the Word of God says you are incapable of such a choice (John 15:16).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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Kermos

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@Francis Drake, let me enumerate the ways that you falsify (lie) about scripture which carries a deadly penalty as the Apostle John wrote regarding "the holy city, Jerusalem" "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:10, Revelation 21:27):

your additions to Revelation 3:20 (post in this thread)

you alterations of the Jeroboam account in 1 Kings 11:38 (post in this thread)

your additions and subtractions to the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) (post in this thread)

your alteration to Revelation 13:8 (post in this thread)

you try to redefine the Word of God recorded in John 6:70-71 according to your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) (post in this thread)

you try illegally to add "choice" and "chose" to the Creation account, and you try to add choice toward God in Genesis 25:31-33 (post in this thread)

Lord Jesus is talking about salvation and sanctification again and again in John 15, and the Apostle Peter includes all believers in all time when Lord Jesus says "you" as recorded in Scripture (Acts 11:14-17, Acts 1:4-5), se then this results in the "you" in the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding all believers in all time (post in this thread)[/URL]

You deny the above in your claim to choose God against the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16) with Jesus giving the "choose" no execptions, so you deny being chosen of God for the Word of God says "I chose you" (John 15:16) in what could have been the very same breath. God saves only the chosen of God, and all glory for the saving of any is God's glory and God's glory alone.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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Francis Drake

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Who will counsel the One who knows all things (Isaiah 40:13-17, Romans 11:34-36)? NO MAN (John 4:25, John 16:30, John 21:17)!
You've spent the whole of this thread boosting yourself as God's sole counsellor.
 
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Der Alte

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God is in charge, but you do not know God because you claim to choose God, but God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
That was spoken to the disciples and while it may be "for" all mankind it may not be "to" all mankind. I don't think God "Shanghais" anyone against their will.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

 
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Francis Drake

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There you go AGAIN adding to scripture, Francis Drake.

No place in scripture, NO PLACE, is "choice" nor "chose" recorded about eating from the "tree of life" or "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".

Your words of "choice" and "chose" that add to scripture are included in "They were given the choice to eat of two trees, the tree of Life or the Tree of Death. They chose death because they thought they knew better than God".

Genesis 25:31-33 does not include the Hebrew word for "choose". Only actions are represented in the account. Action is a synonym for fruit.
Your argument is truly infantile. Words like "choose" or "choice" do not have to be included in a sentence to have the same effect.
Even you claimed "Salvation" was throughout the whole of John 15, when it doesn't even appear once, so apart from being utterly hypocritical, your argument is truly pathetic.
But here's a "choice" passage of scripture.
…Ex32v25Moses saw that the people were out of control, for Aaron had let them run wild and become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26So Moses stood at the entrance of the camp and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me.” And all the Levites gathered around him.
Moses gave his call to the whole camp, but only Levi responded. Everybody could have come if they so wished.
In normal life, that's called making a choice, whether the word is their or not.
Since God knows the names of all the saints in all time for we saints are recorded in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the world, then man has NO say in being saved for God established all to be saved from the foundation of the world.
If without their consent, some men are pre-programmed to get "saved", then their lives were never in the slightest danger of God's wrath!
Never being at risk, these men were "saved" from absolutely nothing. That makes the Calvinist concept of salvation is a completely empty charade.
This is Christian teaching, and may God open your heart to the Truth (John 14:6).
No, it comes from the pit and has nothing to do with Christ!
Your false doctrine makes God into an evil tyrant.
 
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Francis Drake

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In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you defiantly claim to "debunk" the Word of God Who says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which indicates salvation for there is no limitation on the choosing in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
Debunked
All of your "debunk"s are from your additions to and deletions from scripture, so your "debunk"s only mean that you persist in doctrine of delusion of imposing human choice toward God into the Word of God.
"Choose you this day...………"
God always expects man to make choices.
God's salvation is being saved from the wrath of God,
but you don't have salvation

because your claim of choosing God denies the inherent quality of the Word of God Who says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which indicates salvation for there is no limitation on the choosing in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
So, according to @Kermos, I don't have "salvation". Thankfully, that's not what God told me.
I still recall as a child when Jesus knocked on my door. I chose to open and he has been dining with me since that day.

But just curious Kermos, do you really know what the peace of Jesus feels like?
Its an incredibly amazing sense of God's presence.
That's what caused me to open my heart to him, his love. That's got nothing to do with doctrines.
You should try it some time
Only a self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) thinks that choice towards God is not a work of man.

I love you, so I do not want to see you fall into the pit.
I'm sorry @Kermos, if what you portray is love, then you can stick it.....cos I don't need it or want it.
Your "Love" stinks like a drain.
As soon as you wrote "Ability to choose was given to Adam in the Garden of Eden" you added to scripture AGAIN because no place in scripture says that Adam have the ability to choose.
I guess the reason there were two trees just goes straight over your head. Don't worry, some day you'll get it.
1 Timothy 2:3 indicates nothing about choice towards God nor free will.
1Tim2v3This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
If this states what God wants, all men saved, and if God is responsible for all choices, then the whole human race must be saved and nobody going to hell in a handbasket! Yippee.
And if not, why not. Why do Calvinists throw out threats of damnation so readily, like you keep threatening me?
Maybe your Calvinist god didn't read this scripture? Or just maybe, there's another factor you've missed completely.
BTW, Francis Drake, your self willed assertion about "who gave Himself as a ransom for all" leads to a serious problem for you becuase it would mean nobody needs to make a choice towards God that you claim is required for a person according to your self willed (2 Peter 2:9-10) theology of which your theology indicates that not everyone chooses Jesus.
That's a truly infantile analysis of what I said. You truly are blind to what I said. Maybe your Calvinism has so addled your brain that you can't follow simple logic
If a head teacher buys concert tickets for the whole school, but only half turn up to the event, the price he paid is still the same, the cost for the whole school.
The kids exercised free choice and didn't give a damn about the cost.
You call the One True God "an evil monster", so the Word of God says "by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37).
No, that was reserved for Calvin's god
May Jesus Christ, Lord and God (John 20:28), raise you from the dead to life eternal!
I have walked with the Lord now for nearly 60 years my friend, so your insults and constant threats say volumes about you, but mean very little to me.
My walk with Jesus is a relationship of love and security, not academic prowess. There is no fear in love.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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God is in charge, but you do not know God because you claim to choose God, but God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
IF God is in charge, something He never claims He is, why do people do bad things?

Secondly, please provide the exact post where I wrote "I choose God" or stop accusing me of saying things I never said. YOu have not read my testimony.

YOu should stop accusing people of bad character or bad in general as a defense for your position.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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No one’s names are written in the Lambs book of life before the world was created. The book of the Lamb EXISTED before the foundation of the world. The names in it did not.

Same as we are predestined to be holy and blameless before the foundation of the world. No one is predestined for Heaven before the foundation of the world. Takes some serious editing to the Bible to get that theology!
 
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Francis Drake

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@Francis Drake, let me enumerate the ways that you falsify (lie) about scripture which carries a deadly penalty as the Apostle John wrote regarding "the holy city, Jerusalem" "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:10, Revelation 21:27):
So once again @Kermos, I'm a liar and face the death penalty, being excluded from the Holy City because my name is not in the Book of Life.
Gee thanks, I'm terrified!

Throughout this thread you have heaped curses and vitriol on anyone who disagrees with your doctrines.
Do you seriously imagine such words will persuade me to follow you.

But, if as you say, my name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life, then my future is already fixed and its not my choice.
Nothing you could ever say will possibly persuade me to repent. According to Calvinism I'm permanently predestined, pre-programmed by God to reject everything you say.
Ditto
God commanded Adam not to eat the Tree of Knowledge of Good or Evil (ie. The Tree of Death)
Gen2v16And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

But Adam and Eve make their own decision and eat from the wrong tree anyway.
Gen3v6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Any normal person would read these two passages and realise that God had left it up to Adam whether to obey or disobey.
ie. Adam had freewill choice in the matter!
This is not adding to scripture, its simply reading it as stated.

Obviously Adam could, or should, have eaten from the Tree of Life which represents the Lord himself. But that's probably way above the Calvinist pay grade to think about that.
 
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Kermos

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That was spoken to the disciples and while it may be "for" all mankind it may not be "to" all mankind. I don't think God "Shanghais" anyone against their will.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Not one of the verses you mention indicate man has ability to choose toward God, yet we know that the "you" in Lord Jesus' words of "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) is about salvation and in the same passage Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Every verse you mention indicates FRUIT a.k.a. action a.k.a. deeds, and Lord Jesus says that we believer's deeds are wrought in God (John 3:21).

For a person to lay claim to fruit of the Spirit of God would be stealing. I surely hope that you would not want to steal from God, Der Alter.

Now, let's see what the Apostle Peter had to say about Lord Jesus' use of the word "you".

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

In John 14, John 15, and John 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17, see also John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14)).

Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "You" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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Kermos

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IF God is in charge, something He never claims He is, why do people do bad things?

The Apostle Paul wrote "the love of Christ controls us" (2 Corinthians 5:14).

The Psalmist wrote "Salvation belongs to the LORD" (Psalm 3:8).

The Prophet Jonah wrote "Salvation is from the LORD" (Jonah 2:9).

Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

All of these indicate God is in control.

People do bad things because of being in the carnal state, sometimes called the sin nature (post in this thread)

Secondly, please provide the exact post where I wrote "I choose God" or stop accusing me of saying things I never said. YOu have not read my testimony.

Your writings indicate that you claim to have chose God at some level, be it by you thinking that you opened your heart or that you accepted - whatever the case may be. A person who believes in Lord Jesus would not argue against the King of Glory's words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

No one’s names are written in the Lambs book of life before the world was created. The book of the Lamb EXISTED before the foundation of the world. The names in it did not.

Same as we are predestined to be holy and blameless before the foundation of the world. No one is predestined for Heaven before the foundation of the world. Takes some serious editing to the Bible to get that theology!

In your writing, Dorothy Mae, you try to subtract from the book of Revelation.

God knows the names of all saints in all time because the book of Revelation contains these "only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - names "written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain" (Revelation 13:8) which need to be read in the context of the book of Revelation (post containing scripture and grammar for Revelation 13:8 in this thread).

Since you change the book of Revelation, then you are notified that there is a deadly penalty stated in the book of Revelation by the Apostle John "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

[/QUOTE]YOu should stop accusing people of bad character or bad in general as a defense for your position.[/QUOTE]

The Word of God reveals that which is good and describes that which is evil (bad). Pride is bad.

In your pride, you woefully call evil good and good evil (Isaiah 5:20). because of your prideful claim of your work of a choice toward God which wickedly opposes the Word of God "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you woefully call evil good and good evil (Isaiah 5:20). because it is humble to say I did nothing and God did it all to save a wretch like me.

Only Jesus is Savior. Choice by man toward God for salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26).

May Lord Jesus open your eyes to His Glorious Truth!

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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Kermos

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In Exodus 32:25-26, (1) the people are OUT OF CONTROL and (2) actions are described - there is no indication of choice - just actions are indicated for Moses said "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me" - the Levites acted as people "for the LORD" - the other people acted by abstaining from going to Moses thus showing to not be "for the LORD" - the word "choose" is not in the passage explicitly nor implicitly. You have added to scripture again by writing "Everybody could have come if they so wished" which is not in the scripture.

Your words "If without their consent, some men are pre-programmed to get "saved", then their lives were never in the slightest danger of God's wrath!" are antithetical to God for the Apostle Paul writes "you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Ephesians 2:1-5).

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you wrote that Christian doctrine "makes God into an evil tyrant" such as the Word of God saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); consequently, you daringly blaspheme Glory and God knows how to keep the daring self willed over for punishment (2 Peter 2:9-10).

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you defiantly claim to "debunk" the Word of God Who says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which indicates salvation for there is no limitation on the choosing in "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

All of your "debunk"s are from your additions to and deletions from scripture, so your "debunk"s only mean that you persist in doctrine of delusion of imposing human choice toward God into the Word of God.

There you go again, twisting scripture when you wrote "Choose you this day" which is a clear reference to Joshua 24:14-15 which only presents choices of false gods while no choice of the One True God is presented (post in this thread).

You wrote "So, according to @Kermos, I don't have "salvation". Thankfully, that's not what God told me. I still recall as a child when Jesus knocked on my door. I chose to open and he has been dining with me since that day.", but your false god that you chose lies to you, Francis Drake because you claim that you "chose" Jesus, yet Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

The indwelling Holy Spirit is peace, Francis Drake. The Holy Spirit comes upon people, not people coming upon the Holy Spirit as you describe with your words of "Its an incredibly amazing sense of God's presence. That's what caused me to open my heart to him, his love" of which "open my heart to him" is entirely unscriptural for it is written "the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14); moreover, "those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:8), so you being apart from God could not "choose" God in a way pleasing to God.

You wrote "Your 'Love' stinks like a drain." God has given me love for you, so you blaspheme Glory again (2 Peter 2:9-10). You do not know what love is because you as "a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

I'm not the one to change you. That is up to God alone, not you, not me, but God alone.

You wrote "I guess the reason there were two trees just goes straight over your head. Don't worry, some day you'll get it". No, I cite that God never used the word "choose" nor it's conjugates whether to eat or not in relation to the tree of life nor the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and this is according to scripture, but you persist in trying to add to the Word of God by inserting "choice" where it does not exist.

Again, hold up 1 Timothy 2:3-4 as some kind indicator of choice or free will where it does not exist. It appears that you think all men are saved by those words which shows that you do not understand what is written in 1 Timothy there.

You call the One True God "an evil monster", so the Word of God says "by your words you will be condemned" (Matthew 12:37). I am not talking about your "Calvin's god".

You wrote "Throughout this thread you have heaped curses and vitriol on anyone who disagrees with your doctrines", yet I've not cursed you once rather I've warned you of the truth revealed in Scripture, but in your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you invert love and hate.

You wrote "But, if as you say, my name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life" - I NEVER WROTE THAT! You add to scripture, so it is no surprise that you would add to my writings which the Holy Spirit leads me to write to you. I CITE THE WORD OF GOD TO YOU.

You wrote "Any normal person would read these two passages and realise that God had left it up to Adam whether to obey or disobey", but you used the wrong words of "normal person" because only a "carnally minded person" would add "choose" or it's variants to Genesis 2:16-17 and Genesis 3:6. Notice "you shall not eat" does not indicated ablility to obey nor disobey; meanwhile , "took of its fruit and ate" and "and he ate" both are ACTIONS with no implicit nor explicit inclusion of choose nor it's variants.

By the way, in the Hebrew the word "for" in "for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" also means "when"; therefore, it can be translated as "when in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" which means that GOD KNEW THAT ADAM WOULD EAT FROM THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.

Lord Jesus is talking about salvation and sanctification again and again in John 15, and the Apostle Peter includes all believers in all time when Lord Jesus says "you" as recorded in Scripture (Acts 11:14-17, Acts 1:4-5), se then this results in the "you" in the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding all believers in all time (post in this thread)

You deny the above in your claim to choose God against the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16) with Jesus giving the "choose" no execptions, so you deny being chosen of God for the Word of God says "I chose you" (John 15:16) in what could have been the very same breath. God saves only the chosen of God, and all glory for the saving of any is God's glory and God's glory alone.

May God save you from your vain worship embedded in your precepts of men (Matthew 15:9) which is your self glorifying claimed choice of God (John 15:16, Isaiah 42:8).

Your argument is truly infantile. Words like "choose" or "choice" do not have to be included in a sentence to have the same effect.
Even you claimed "Salvation" was throughout the whole of John 15, when it doesn't even appear once, so apart from being utterly hypocritical, your argument is truly pathetic.
But here's a "choice" passage of scripture.
…Ex32v25Moses saw that the people were out of control, for Aaron had let them run wild and become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26So Moses stood at the entrance of the camp and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me.” And all the Levites gathered around him.
Moses gave his call to the whole camp, but only Levi responded. Everybody could have come if they so wished.
In normal life, that's called making a choice, whether the word is their or not.

If without their consent, some men are pre-programmed to get "saved", then their lives were never in the slightest danger of God's wrath!
Never being at risk, these men were "saved" from absolutely nothing. That makes the Calvinist concept of salvation is a completely empty charade.

No, it comes from the pit and has nothing to do with Christ!
Your false doctrine makes God into an evil tyrant.

Debunked"Choose you this day...………"
God always expects man to make choices. So, according to @Kermos, I don't have "salvation". Thankfully, that's not what God told me.
I still recall as a child when Jesus knocked on my door. I chose to open and he has been dining with me since that day.

But just curious Kermos, do you really know what the peace of Jesus feels like?
Its an incredibly amazing sense of God's presence.
That's what caused me to open my heart to him, his love. That's got nothing to do with doctrines.
You should try it some timeI'm sorry @Kermos, if what you portray is love, then you can stick it.....cos I don't need it or want it.
Your "Love" stinks like a drain.
I guess the reason there were two trees just goes straight over your head. Don't worry, some day you'll get it.
1Tim2v3This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
If this states what God wants, all men saved, and if God is responsible for all choices, then the whole human race must be saved and nobody going to hell in a handbasket! Yippee.
And if not, why not. Why do Calvinists throw out threats of damnation so readily, like you keep threatening me?
Maybe your Calvinist god didn't read this scripture? Or just maybe, there's another factor you've missed completely.That's a truly infantile analysis of what I said. You truly are blind to what I said. Maybe your Calvinism has so addled your brain that you can't follow simple logic
If a head teacher buys concert tickets for the whole school, but only half turn up to the event, the price he paid is still the same, the cost for the whole school.
The kids exercised free choice and didn't give a damn about the cost.
No, that was reserved for Calvin's godI have walked with the Lord now for nearly 60 years my friend, so your insults and constant threats say volumes about you, but mean very little to me.
My walk with Jesus is a relationship of love and security, not academic prowess. There is no fear in love.

So once again @Kermos, I'm a liar and face the death penalty, being excluded from the Holy City because my name is not in the Book of Life.
Gee thanks, I'm terrified!

Throughout this thread you have heaped curses and vitriol on anyone who disagrees with your doctrines.
Do you seriously imagine such words will persuade me to follow you.

But, if as you say, my name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life, then my future is already fixed and its not my choice.
Nothing you could ever say will possibly persuade me to repent. According to Calvinism I'm permanently predestined, pre-programmed by God to reject everything you say.
Ditto
God commanded Adam not to eat the Tree of Knowledge of Good or Evil (ie. The Tree of Death)
Gen2v16And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

But Adam and Eve make their own decision and eat from the wrong tree anyway.
Gen3v6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.
Any normal person would read these two passages and realise that God had left it up to Adam whether to obey or disobey.
ie. Adam had freewill choice in the matter!
This is not adding to scripture, its simply reading it as stated.

Obviously Adam could, or should, have eaten from the Tree of Life which represents the Lord himself. But that's probably way above the Calvinist pay grade to think about that.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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Der Alte

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Not one of the verses you mention indicate man has ability to choose toward God, yet we know that the "you" in Lord Jesus' words of "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) is about salvation and in the same passage Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
Every verse you mention indicates FRUIT a.k.a. action a.k.a. deeds, and Lord Jesus says that we believer's deeds are wrought in God (John 3:21).
For a person to lay claim to fruit of the Spirit of God would be stealing. I surely hope that you would not want to steal from God, Der Alter.
Now, let's see what the Apostle Peter had to say about Lord Jesus' use of the word "you".
Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).
At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).
At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).
Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".
Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!
In John 14, John 15, and John 16 Jesus explicitly promises the Holy Spirit. For example, He said "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you." (John 14:16-17, see also John 14:26, John 15:26-27, John 16:7-14)).
Thus, the fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is more than the 11 Apostles, and includes not just the Jews but also the Gentiles because of Cornelius, and our Lord Jesus saying "You" to the disciples includes all disciples in all time.
There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
If it was not possible for believers to not endure to the end, not hold fast to the end and draw back unto perdition Jesus would not have warned His followers to choose to endure, choose to hold fast and choose to not draw back.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Remember Jesus chose Judas but Judas chose to betray Jesus, in stead of holding fast etc.
 
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nolidad

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Is the will of humans controlled by God?

Didn't read the numerous responses but here is what Scripture says.

Unsaved man is enslaved to Satan and sin- so he is controlled by his fallen nature and the devil.

Saved man are the only ones who have free will for we are the only ones who can choose to obey or disobey God!
 
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Francis Drake

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In Exodus 32:25-26, (1) the people are OUT OF CONTROL and (2) actions are described - there is no indication of choice - just actions are indicated for Moses said "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me" - the Levites acted as people "for the LORD" - the other people acted by abstaining from going to Moses thus showing to not be "for the LORD" - the word "choose" is not in the passage explicitly nor implicitly. You have added to scripture again by writing "Everybody could have come if they so wished" which is not in the scripture.
Since when does a decision always need to have the word choice" written into it?
Your excuses for denial of the glaringly obvious are truly pathetic.
Your words "If without their consent, some men are pre-programmed to get "saved", then their lives were never in the slightest danger of God's wrath!" are antithetical to God for the Apostle Paul writes "you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" (Ephesians 2:1-5).
You keep posting great scriptures, quite edifying but utterly useless in proving your Calvinist heresy.

Of course all men are dead in sin, but if some are without their consent pre-programmed before creation to get saved, then they are also predestined to avoid God's wrath. Such people were never in the slightest danger of damnation from the day they were born, unlike the poor souls your cruel god deliberately creates with pre-programming to burn in hell.

You cannot have it both ways. Either Calvinism is a lie, or Ep2v1-5 is a lie. They are mutually exclusive.
In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) you wrote that Christian doctrine "makes God into an evil tyrant" such as the Word of God saying "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); consequently, you daringly blaspheme Glory and God knows how to keep the daring self willed over for punishment (2 Peter 2:9-10).
Nope, I just love blaspheming your revolting false god, an evil tyrant who according to your doctrine deliberately creates men purely to burn in hell for his own pleasure.
You wrote "So, according to @Kermos, I don't have "salvation". Thankfully, that's not what God told me. I still recall as a child when Jesus knocked on my door. I chose to open and he has been dining with me since that day.", but your false god that you chose lies to you, Francis Drake because you claim that you "chose" Jesus, yet Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

The indwelling Holy Spirit is peace, Francis Drake.
That's strange @Kermos, "peace" is the very last word on earth I would identify with you. Maybe anger, rage, hatred, judgementalism etc. but not peace.
Did you not know it is the kindness of God that leads people to repentance, and it is God's kindness that melted my heart, not fear of his wrath.
The Holy Spirit comes upon people, not people coming upon the Holy Spirit as you describe with your words of "Its an incredibly amazing sense of God's presence. That's what caused me to open my heart to him, his love" of which "open my heart to him" is entirely unscriptural for it is written "the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul" (Acts 16:14);
Another great scripture, but useless for your heresy. Do you not read them before posting?

Acts1614And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple of the city of Thyatira, worshiping God, was listening....
Lydia was already a worshiper of God before Paul met her, so when she heard Paul speak, the Holy Spirit was already in her heart to gave her witness.
….The Lord opened her heart to attend to the things being spoken by Paul.
This happens to believers all the time, receiving a witness of the Holy Spirit for things we hear. Its called discernment and has nothing to do with the intellect.
You wrote "Your 'Love' stinks like a drain." God has given me love for you, so you blaspheme Glory again (2 Peter 2:9-10). You do not know what love is because you as "a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).
You have given me not one iota of love, just pride, self righteousness, and judgement.
 
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Kermos

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If it was not possible for believers to not endure to the end, not hold fast to the end and draw back unto perdition Jesus would not have warned His followers to choose to endure, choose to hold fast and choose to not draw back.
Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.Mar_13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved
Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
Remember Jesus chose Judas but Judas chose to betray Jesus, in stead of holding fast etc.

Again, not one of the verses you mention indicate man has ability to choose toward God, yet we know that the "you" in Lord Jesus' words of "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) is about salvation and in the same passage Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Every verse you mention indicates FRUIT a.k.a. action a.k.a. deeds, for the action words, the verbs, are evident. The fruit is "endure" and "hold fast" and "not" "draw back", and Lord Jesus says that we believer's deeds are wrought in God (John 3:21).

Since you persist in posting the same verses, you try to steal the fruit of the Spirit of God in direct violation of the commandment of God "you shall not steal" (Exodus 20:15).

No scripture states that Judas "chose" to betray Jesus.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!
 
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