Dating is a sin- just be friends till your married, no need to complicate...

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again please refer to commentaries on your posts, I can simply say, "no pastoral epistles are letters to early church and thus refer universally the christian church." Lastly, elderly are mentioned in the verse, AND younger women too. So saying it 'clearly refers' to elderly, is half true. When I interepet the verse I take it's literal representation, I believe what is actually said. So to say what is actually said is not true means you have to dig and find resources from qualified individuals that can make a valid case for you. Thanks again.

Except as a Pastoral Epistle, Paul is specifically addressing his younger colleague Timothy regarding his ministry in Ephesus. He provides instructions on the organization of the Church and the responsibilities of various church leaders, as well as addressing how a minister should interact with his congregation. Paul makes this clear in 1 Timothy 1:18-19 where he wrote: "Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well, holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith." You are trying to take it well beyond what Paul was addressing.
 
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createdtoworship

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Not true. I was in love with my future wife before we were dating. Just because there's no physical contact doesn't mean that person isn't some one that we see differently than everyone else. The physical aspect isn't necessary to be courting. You are getting to know that person intellectually and emotionally.
I agree, but at that point you are not dating. That is the point. You can at this point redefine what dating is, and say you dating. But when we redefine terms that only we understand or agree upon and not the whole is it really a definition? Same thing with courting, the current definition of courting is dating with intent to marry, so it does not solve the problem. Again you can try to redefine it, but most won't honor your definition.
 
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Sketcher

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so again making a greek word that describes sex with someone not your wife, then creating another greek word for sex with someone else's wife, that is not yours, is sort of redundant. Can we agree on that? Besides your definition that fornication means only "sex before marriage" is lacking support. Again I already mentioned that my dictionaries are superior and more exhaustive than lexicons. Lexicons are sort of outdated as far as greek study tools. Dictionaries use every occasion of the verse in the Bible.
No more redundant than in English.

But the real point is that the definitions you posted do not disagree with my stance on the matter, which I hope I have expressed clearly.

Again please post commentaries that suggest we are not to treat other women "in all purity." and not treat them as "sisters" in christ.
Matthew Henry said it was specific to the office, as I did: 1 Timothy 5 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
Besides, Paul recommended that the young couple in 1 Corinthians 7:36-38 get married. He would not have said the same of a brother and sister that was in the same circumstance, it would have been disgraceful.
My logic takes the literal passage literally.
So does mine.

Your comments lack support from qualified sources.
Yours do.
 
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createdtoworship

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No more redundant than in English.

But the real point is that the definitions you posted do not disagree with my stance on the matter, which I hope I have expressed clearly.


Matthew Henry said it was specific to the office, as I did: 1 Timothy 5 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
Besides, Paul recommended that the young couple in 1 Corinthians 7:36-38 get married. He would not have said the same of a brother and sister that was in the same circumstance, it would have been disgraceful.

So does mine.


Yours do.
I appologize, I don't follow your logic, can you use bullet points on my post with the commentaries and greek dictionaries and use your own commentaries and greek dictionaries to refute it. We can always say my opinion is better than yours, but then you can come back and say the reverse. So it ultimately boils down to sources. If you agree with everything I posted, then I presume this debate is over.
 
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TheDag

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again please refer to commentaries on your posts, I can simply say, "no pastoral epistles are letters to early church and thus refer universally the christian church." Lastly, elderly are mentioned in the verse, AND younger women too. So saying it 'clearly refers' to elderly, is half true. When I interepet the verse I take it's literal representation, I believe what is actually said. So to say what is actually said is not true means you have to dig and find resources from qualified individuals that can make a valid case for you. Thanks again.
So you are sleeping with your sister according to your own interpretation of that passage. Interesting! After all if you must treat younger women as sisters then you shouldn't marry them. If a interpretation leads to an absurdity like that then the problem is with the interpretation not the passage. You have not shown that the passage refers to dating. So in any case it is not relevant.
 
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createdtoworship

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So you are sleeping with your sister according to your own interpretation of that passage. Interesting! After all if you must treat younger women as sisters then you shouldn't marry them. If a interpretation leads to an absurdity like that then the problem is with the interpretation not the passage. You have not shown that the passage refers to dating. So in any case it is not relevant.
We are to treat everyone as sisters, then when you marry you are not two anymore you are treated as one (mark 10:8). So rather than treating your wife as a sister, you would treat her as your own flesh. I hope that addresses your concern, thanks for the post.
 
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So you are sleeping with your sister according to your own interpretation of that passage. Interesting! After all if you must treat younger women as sisters then you shouldn't marry them. If a interpretation leads to an absurdity like that then the problem is with the interpretation not the passage. You have not shown that the passage refers to dating. So in any case it is not relevant.
Again, the OP is reading 1Timothy out of context. It is a pastoral letter. Paul is telling Timothy how a pastor should operate his church and deal with his congregation. He isn’t talking about relationships with a future spouse.
 
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I agree, but at that point you are not dating. That is the point. You can at this point redefine what dating is, and say you dating. But when we redefine terms that only we understand or agree upon and not the whole is it really a definition? Same thing with courting, the current definition of courting is dating with intent to marry, so it does not solve the problem. Again you can try to redefine it, but most won't honor your definition.
You are dating if you are meeting with the person because you are interested in them as a possible wife, whether you are just in a family dinner setting or with a group of friends or alone with them. How else do you get from being friends to getting married?
 
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createdtoworship

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You are dating if you are meeting with the person because you are interested in them as a possible wife, whether you are just in a family dinner setting or with a group of friends or alone with them. How else do you get from being friends to getting married?
simple you just get married as friends. It's ok to say you are engaged, but I don't recommend longer than six months for temptation reasons. Some people be like, yeah we are engaged for ten years, so we moved in together. No, that's not biblical even remotely.
 
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simple you just get married as friends. It's ok to say you are engaged, but I don't recommend longer than six months for temptation reasons. Some people be like, yeah we are engaged for ten years, so we moved in together. No, that's not biblical even remotely.
My girlfriend and I have been dating for several years but we have never moved in together, just as I have never grabbed her rear end. BTW, still waiting for you to answer my posts 359 and 361. Do you not have answers? If not your case collapses.
 
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createdtoworship

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My girlfriend and I have been dating for several years but we have never moved in together, just as I have never grabbed her rear end. BTW, still waiting for you to answer my posts 359 and 361. Do you not have answers? If not your case collapses.
I apologize sir, I have debated you for awhile on purity issues. You seem to think public nudity is both modest and biblical, I guess I feel it not worth my time to debate morals with a person like that. Please don't be offended, I just have a lot of posts to reply to. And I am busy this week, so take care I hope you find what you are looking for on CF.
 
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Sketcher

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I appologize, I don't follow your logic, can you use bullet points on my post with the commentaries and greek dictionaries and use your own commentaries and greek dictionaries to refute it. We can always say my opinion is better than yours, but then you can come back and say the reverse. So it ultimately boils down to sources. If you agree with everything I posted, then I presume this debate is over.
OK, to reiterate where I'm coming from here:

1)Matthew Henry in his commentary on 1 Timothy 5, states that verses 1 and 2 are for church leaders:
Here the apostle, I. Directs Timothy how to reprove (v. 1, v. 2). II. Adverts to widows, both elder and younger (v. 3-16). III. To elders (v. 17-19). IV. Treats of public reproof (v. 20). V. Gives a solemn charge concerning ordination (v. 21, v. 22). VI. Refers to his health (v. 23), and states men’s sins to be very different in their effects (v. 24, v. 25).

Verses 1-2 Here the apostle gives rules to Timothy, and in him to other ministers, in reproving. Ministers are reprovers by office; it is a part, though the least pleasing part, of their office; they are to preach the word, to reprove and rebuke, 2 Tim. 4:2 . A great difference is to be made in our reproofs, according to the age, quality, and other circumstances, of the persons rebuked; thus, and elder in age or office must be entreated as a father; on some have compassion, making a difference, Jude. 22, . Now the rule is, 1. To be very tender in rebuking elders—elders in age, elders by office. Respect must be had to the dignity of their years and place, and therefore they must not be rebuked sharply nor magisterially; but Timothy himself, though an evangelist, must entreat them as fathers, for this would be the likeliest way to work upon them, and to win upon them. 2. The younger must be rebuked as brethren, with love and tenderness; not as desirous, to spy faults or pick quarrels, but as being willing to make the best of them. There is need of a great deal of meekness in reproving those who deserve reproof. 3. The elder women must be reproved, when there is occasion, as mothers. Hos. 2:2 , Plead with your mother, plead. 4. The younger women must be reproved, but reproved as sisters, with all purity. If Timothy, so mortified a man to this world and to the flesh and lusts of it, had need of such a caution as this, much more have we.
Source: 1 Timothy 5 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
So these verses, taken 100% literally, are to ministers/pastors. Taken literally, that is their context. Verse 2 cannot be divorced from verse 1 or the rest of chapter 5 or the rest of the book.

2) With that in mind, taking verse 2 literally means that the pastor is to reprove and generally treat older women as mothers and younger women as sisters. If a man of God literally treats an older woman as his mother, he will never consider pursuing her as a wife. Likewise, if a man of God literally treats a younger woman as a sister, he will never consider pursuing her as a wife. And if someone else were to suggest that he marry her, he would be immediately repulsed, because a man of God does not seek to marry his mother or his sister. And he would rebuke the person who suggested it, as fitting with the instructions in verses 1-2. This is fitting because of the power dynamic a pastor has over a congregant. Failure for a pastor to treat his congregants as fathers, brothers, sisters, and mothers, is among other things, predatory.

3) Taking 1 Corinthians 7:36-38 literally means that we must acknowledge that the way betrothed people act towards each other is not at all like brother and sister. Brother and sister do not act like a couple, they do not look forward to marrying each other, they do not aim for marrying each other, this couple does. Yet Paul is recommending marriage as an option for them, which he would never do for a brother and sister who acts this way toward each other, because we know how he treats incest from 1 Corinthians 5. Also note that they are not having sex, or even necessarily almost there, so he's not making an excuse for fornication.
 
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createdtoworship

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OK, to reiterate where I'm coming from here:

1)Matthew Henry in his commentary on 1 Timothy 5, states that verses 1 and 2 are for church leaders:

Source: 1 Timothy 5 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
So these verses, taken 100% literally, are to ministers/pastors. Taken literally, that is their context. Verse 2 cannot be divorced from verse 1 or the rest of chapter 5 or the rest of the book.

2) With that in mind, taking verse 2 literally means that the pastor is to reprove and generally treat older women as mothers and younger women as sisters. If a man of God literally treats an older woman as his mother, he will never consider pursuing her as a wife. Likewise, if a man of God literally treats a younger woman as a sister, he will never consider pursuing her as a wife. And if someone else were to suggest that he marry her, he would be immediately repulsed, because a man of God does not seek to marry his mother or his sister. And he would rebuke the person who suggested it, as fitting with the instructions in verses 1-2. This is fitting because of the power dynamic a pastor has over a congregant. Failure for a pastor to treat his congregants as fathers, brothers, sisters, and mothers, is among other things, predatory.

3) Taking 1 Corinthians 7:36-38 literally means that we must acknowledge that the way betrothed people act towards each other is not at all like brother and sister. Brother and sister do not act like a couple, they do not look forward to marrying each other, they do not aim for marrying each other, this couple does. Yet Paul is recommending marriage as an option for them, which he would never do for a brother and sister who acts this way toward each other, because we know how he treats incest from 1 Corinthians 5. Also note that they are not having sex, or even necessarily almost there, so he's not making an excuse for fornication.
Ok so if I understand you correctly, you are saying that that book cannot be interpreted for average christians and is only to be interpreted strictly for clergy only. Is this what you are saying? Even if that is the case, I don't think I am misinterpreting the verse. I believe the commentaries universally support my view that pastors are instructed on how christians of their churches should treat one another. I am not saying anything different. I will not have access to Internet starting tomorrow through thursday, so my posts will be brief. But let's start with this reply, if I missed something I will adress it when I have Internet probably Wednesday nightm
 
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Ok so if I understand you correctly, you are saying that that book cannot be interpreted for average christians and is only to be interpreted strictly for clergy only. Is this what you are saying? Even if that is the case, I don't think I am misinterpreting the verse. I believe the commentaries universally support my view that pastors are instructed on how christians of their churches should treat one another. I am not saying anything different. I will not have access to Internet starting tomorrow through thursday, so my posts will be brief. But let's start with this reply, if I missed something I will adress it when I have Internet probably Wednesday nightm
There is plenty in 1 Timothy that average Christians can and should benefit from, but we need to recognize who Timothy was, what his role was, and what Paul was guiding him to do to fulfill that role. As 1 Timothy 5:1-2 pertains to fulfilling that specific role in a specific way, claiming those instructions as written are for everyone isn't even a literal interpretation of the passage.
 
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I apologize sir, I have debated you for awhile on purity issues. You seem to think public nudity is both modest and biblical, I guess I feel it not worth my time to debate morals with a person like that. Please don't be offended, I just have a lot of posts to reply to. And I am busy this week, so take care I hope you find what you are looking for on CF.
But this thread isn’t about public nudity, is it? In fact I have not raised public nudity in this thread, only you have. You haven’t answered my earlier posts because you can’t explain Jacob kissing Rachel, nor can you explain the fact that 1Timothy is a pastoral letter that explains how a pastor should interact with his congregation, not a guide to relationships. By loosing on both of those issues your case falls apart.

BTW, interesting that you object to my views on “purity issues.” Yes, my girlfriend and I have visited topless and nude beaches together. We also have never engaged in sexual intercourse and would not do so outside of marriage. You were the one who had sex with your girlfriend. Who here has purity issues?
 
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There is plenty in 1 Timothy that average Christians can and should benefit from, but we need to recognize who Timothy was, what his role was, and what Paul was guiding him to do to fulfill that role. As 1 Timothy 5:1-2 pertains to fulfilling that specific role in a specific way, claiming those instructions as written are for everyone isn't even a literal interpretation of the passage.
I would say the same thing as you just did if I didn't want to believe what the Bible actually says. In other words, excuses are what we say when we don't want to do something. you like the idea of dating, probably because it allows 'some' sanctified physical romance prior to marriage. So I get why you are fighting me, but I just want you to know that the actual commentaries are not saying that these verses are not applicable to average christians, and since you are stumbling over your post here, I can see you are finding it hard to find objective evidence that this is the case. Anyway, I will be out of town for several days and may or may not be able to reply, I am not sure if there will be service there, or internet. We are roughing it a few days in a cabin with the kids. Take care. Again, if you can quote commentaries that say that this particular verse 'is not applicable to average christians' that would do wonders for your perspective. But I don't think commentators would go that far, that is taking extreme liberty with the text. So even if you did happen to find one that said that, I would be able to find 10 or 20 that did not say that. So for now I feel this has sufficiently been refuted. So thanks again.
 
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I would say the same thing as you just did if I didn't want to believe what the Bible actually says. In other words, excuses are what we say when we don't want to do something. you like the idea of dating, probably because it allows 'some' sanctified physical romance prior to marriage. So I get why you are fighting me, but I just want you to know that the actual commentaries are not saying that these verses are not applicable to average christians, and since you are stumbling over your post here, I can see you are finding it hard to find objective evidence that this is the case. Anyway, I will be out of town for several days and may or may not be able to reply, I am not sure if there will be service there, or internet. We are roughing it a few days in a cabin with the kids. Take care. Again, if you can quote commentaries that say that this particular verse 'is not applicable to average christians' that would do wonders for your perspective. But I don't think commentators would go that far, that is taking extreme liberty with the text. So even if you did happen to find one that said that, I would be able to find 10 or 20 that did not say that. So for now I feel this has sufficiently been refuted. So thanks again.
Except you have not refuted anything. You have, as usual, just offered opinion. I earlier quoted what Paul at the beginning of 1 Timothy. He said it was for Timothy’s instruction. Zondervan’s Bible Dictionary states that the pastoral letters “furnish worthwhile directions to pastors,” specifically to “Paul’s special envoys sent by him on specific missions and entrusted with concrete assignments.”
 
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I would say the same thing as you just did if I didn't want to believe what the Bible actually says. In other words, excuses are what we say when we don't want to do something.
If I were in the business of doing that, I wouldn't be denying myself at all.

I stated what the Bible literally says. No need to repeat myself again.

you like the idea of dating, probably because it allows 'some' sanctified physical romance prior to marriage. So I get why you are fighting me
I'm fighting you because you are preaching a system that did not work for you, and that you do not know how to make work for people like me, and that has not worked when attempted in Christian community for many, many people. And one that the Bible doesn't insist on either.
 
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We are to treat everyone as sisters, then when you marry you are not two anymore you are treated as one (mark 10:8). So rather than treating your wife as a sister, you would treat her as your own flesh. I hope that addresses your concern, thanks for the post.
No but you would still be preparing to marry your sister also known as incest. So for a period incest is ok according to you then magically it disappears!
 
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