Is the Rapture biblical?

And here I thought eagles liked to scavenge dead things.

Bible Highlighter said:

5). Revelation 3:10 teaches that the Lord will remove the church prior to the Tribulation.

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It teaches no such thing! People tend to translate this as “keep from,” yet that is the opposite of what the Greek text states.

The one word that is most often neglected in any exegesis of this verse is the word keep. In the original text, it is the word tereo. The root of this word means to “be a spectator.” In context, it is the word “to watch,” or “to be on guard.” It would not be far from the true meaning of this word to interpret it as “watch over.”

The second word with almost equal misinterpretation is the word from. The Greek word ek has a few different English words that can be used to translate, but it is important to maintain consistency of the use of it by an individual writer, in this case, John. In 8:13, we most often translate this as “because of.” In 2 Peter 2:8, it is translated “with” or “after.” Matthew 7:9 renders it “among.” The mistake is that most will see ek as meaning “out of,” but we must default to syntax, writing style, and context to understand which translation is correct. “From” definitely is not correct.

If maintaining consistency (and honesty) in translating, we could read this verse as our Lord’s promise to “watch over (or guard) you because of the hour of temptation...”

And, of course, the word temptation can be translated as “trial” or “test.”

I used to be die-hard pre-trib rapture... until I realized that this verse, and many others, not only have nothing to do with pre-trib rapture, but actually tell us the opposite of what comes from the pulpit and books written merely to sell this doctrine. The Bible simply does not support that doctrine. One must rely on assumptions and speculations rather than concrete evidence to believe there are any verses that teach pre-trip rapture.

I hope you find the strength and humility to accept God’s word over unbiblical doctrine.

Bible Highlighter said:

Only the 144,000 are sealed and protected during God's wrath. There is no mention of any kind of protection for anyone else. This is because God removed them. This is why we are told to pray so that we may escape all these things.

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Well, there’s also no mention of cats and dogs, so that must mean God removed them also. The point being, if we mold a doctrine around what is NOT said, we miss the point of what IS said. That’s what I refer to as the “doctrine of speculation.”

Non-profit Prophet said:

It teaches no such thing! People tend to translate this as “keep from,” yet that is the opposite of what the Greek text states.

The one word that is most often neglected in any exegesis of this verse is the word keep. In the original text, it is the word tereo. The root of this word means to “be a spectator.” In context, it is the word “to watch,” or “to be on guard.” It would not be far from the true meaning of this word to interpret it as “watch over.”

The second word with almost equal misinterpretation is the word from. The Greek word ek has a few different English words that can be used to translate, but it is important to maintain consistency of the use of it by an individual writer, in this case, John. In 8:13, we most often translate this as “because of.” In 2 Peter 2:8, it is translated “with” or “after.” Matthew 7:9 renders it “among.” The mistake is that most will see ek as meaning “out of,” but we must default to syntax, writing style, and context to understand which translation is correct. “From” definitely is not correct.

If maintaining consistency (and honesty) in translating, we could read this verse as our Lord’s promise to “watch over (or guard) you because of the hour of temptation...”

And, of course, the word temptation can be translated as “trial” or “test.”

I used to be die-hard pre-trib rapture... until I realized that this verse, and many others, not only have nothing to do with pre-trib rapture, but actually tell us the opposite of what comes from the pulpit and books written merely to sell this doctrine. The Bible simply does not support that doctrine. One must rely on assumptions and speculations rather than concrete evidence to believe there are any verses that teach pre-trip rapture.

I hope you find the strength and humility to accept God’s word over unbiblical doctrine.

Click to expand...

This all may well be true, but it does not refer to the church being kept during God's wrath. Scripture is clear, the church is removed during God's wrath.

Of course, if you wish to be left behind in God's wrath, I believe God will accommodate you and all the others that wish to stay behind.

Did you just not know that the large crowd seen in Rev. 7 is the just raptured church - raptured a moment before the earthquake at the 6th seal? Did you not know that the 70th week or "trib" does not begin until the 7th seal? My friend, that is pretrib.

Bible Highlighter said:

More Reasons For the Pre-Tribulation Rapture:

1). The earthly kingdom of Christ promised in Revelation 6-18 does not mention the church as being on earth.

Because Revelation 1-3 uses the Greek word for church nineteen times, one would reasonably assume that if the church were on earth rather than in heaven in chapters 6-18, they would use “church” with similar frequency, but such is not the case. Therefore, one can assume that the church is not present on the earth during the period of tribulation described in Revelation 6-18 and that therefore the Lord has removed it from the earth and relocated it to heaven by means of the Rapture.

2). Revelation 19 does not mention a Rapture even though that is where a post-translational Rapture (if true) would logically occur.

Thus one can conclude that the Rapture will have already occurred.

3). A post tribulation Rapture renders the Rapture concept itself inconsequential.

If God preserves the church during the Tribulation, as post-tribulationists assert, then why have a Rapture at all? It makes no sense to Rapture believers from earth to heaven for no apparent purpose other than to return them immediately with Christ to earth. Further, a post tribulation Rapture makes the unique separation of the sheep (believers) from the goats (unbelievers) at the return of Christ in judgment redundant because a post tribulation Rapture would have already accomplished that.

4). If God raptures and glorifies all believers just prior to the inauguration of the millennial kingdom (as a post tribulation Rapture demands) no one would be left to populate the earthly kingdom of Christ promised to Israel.

It is not within the Lord’s plan and purpose to use glorified individuals to propagate the earth during the Millennium. Therefore, the Rapture needs to occur earlier so that after God has raptured all believers, He can save more souls-including Israel’s remnant- during the seven-year Tribulation. Those people can then enter the millennial kingdom in earthly form. The most reasonable possibility for this scenario is the pre-tribulational Rapture.

5). Revelation 3:10 teaches that the Lord will remove the church prior to the Tribulation.

In the Greek, the phrase “I also will keep you from” can mean nothing other than “I will prevent you from entering into.” Jesus Christ will honor the church by preventing it from entering the hour of testing, namely Daniel’s seventieth week, which is about to come upon the entire world. Only a pre-tribulational Rapture can explain how this can happen.

Source:
Nine Pre-Trib Rapture Reasons

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6. A posttrib rapture makes attending the marriage and supper, which will take place in heaven before Christ descends, IMPOSSIBLE to attend.

iamlamad said:

6. A posttrib rapture makes attending the marriage and supper, which will take place in heaven before Christ descends, IMPOSSIBLE to attend.

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I agree. The Post Trib Rapture option seems highly unlikely.
The saints are coming down from Heaven.

I believe there will be two calls. I believe there will be a "Pre-Trib Rapture," (A Mystery Revealed by Paul), and a "Mid Trib Gathering Up By Angels" (Olivet Discourse).

As for the "Marriage Supper":
I do not believe this is a literal supper in Heaven. I believe it is just another name for His saints defeating the enemy nations at Christ's 2nd coming. In Revelation 19, compare verse 9 with verse 17 (i.e. Revelation 19:9, and Revelation 19:17).

The "eagles" (mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse and the fowl in Revelation) are believers (For Isaiah 40:31 says that we saints shall mount up like wings like eagles).

Non-profit Prophet said:

Well, there’s also no mention of cats and dogs, so that must mean God removed them also. The point being, if we mold a doctrine around what is NOT said, we miss the point of what IS said. That’s what I refer to as the “doctrine of speculation.”

Click to expand...

Like every good Theology, the Rapture is systematic. It is not based on just one verse or passage alone, but a series of Scripture verses that are related.

The Rapture also has to make logical sense in light of the events we see in Scripture, too. When Jesus says no man knows the day or the hour and that there are some servants who say that the Lord delays His coming, He actually means that. To take these words by Jesus plainly is the most logical and natural way to take them. If there was a hidden meaning to them, then we should expect to see Scripture explaining it.

Non-profit Prophet said:

It teaches no such thing! People tend to translate this as “keep from,” yet that is the opposite of what the Greek text states.

The one word that is most often neglected in any exegesis of this verse is the word keep. In the original text, it is the word tereo. The root of this word means to “be a spectator.” In context, it is the word “to watch,” or “to be on guard.” It would not be far from the true meaning of this word to interpret it as “watch over.”

The second word with almost equal misinterpretation is the word from. The Greek word ek has a few different English words that can be used to translate, but it is important to maintain consistency of the use of it by an individual writer, in this case, John. In 8:13, we most often translate this as “because of.” In 2 Peter 2:8, it is translated “with” or “after.” Matthew 7:9 renders it “among.” The mistake is that most will see ek as meaning “out of,” but we must default to syntax, writing style, and context to understand which translation is correct. “From” definitely is not correct.

If maintaining consistency (and honesty) in translating, we could read this verse as our Lord’s promise to “watch over (or guard) you because of the hour of temptation...”

And, of course, the word temptation can be translated as “trial” or “test.”

I used to be die-hard pre-trib rapture... until I realized that this verse, and many others, not only have nothing to do with pre-trib rapture, but actually tell us the opposite of what comes from the pulpit and books written merely to sell this doctrine. The Bible simply does not support that doctrine. One must rely on assumptions and speculations rather than concrete evidence to believe there are any verses that teach pre-trip rapture.

I hope you find the strength and humility to accept God’s word over unbiblical doctrine.

Click to expand...

I started off as Pre-Trib, and then I was Pre-Wrath (Mid Trib) for a very short while, and then came back to being Pre-Trib again. This was because of the amount of biblical evidence in support for the Pre-Trib that convinced me. Now, I believe there are two calls. There is a Pre-Trib Rapture (A new mystery revealed by Paul), and a Gathering up by angels (Olivet Discourse).

I made a timeline of the Olivet Discourse, and Revelation and some OT verses over a period of two months. With prayer, I kept revising this timeline based on what Scripture said (Note: You can check this timeline out at CF here). I believe the "great tribulation" starts the antichrist killing 1/4th of the world's population in trying to enforce the mark. Many Christians will be killed during this time. This lines up with the 4th seal (Death). The 5th seal is the saints crying out for vengeance for their being recently killed. Note: Then we see these same dead saints (who were martyred by the antichrist) rejoicing and praising God in Revelation 7. Meaning: God is about to act soon. So with the 6th seal: God then responds by bringing in His wrath. Well, the really bad stuff of God's Wrath (as a part of the 6th seal) does not begin until the trumpet judgments start. This is God bringing in payback upon the Antichrist for killing His people; This would also be God answering the saint's cry for vengeance in the 5th seal, as well.

Side Note:

No offense, but I believe Post Tribbers have a persecution complex. I think some (not all of them) may feel they have to atone for something in their past life. While I do believe Christians can and will be persecuted. For I know Scripture says all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. I get that. But the Tribulation is not about persecution for Christ but it is about a time of getting the Jews to repent and recognize their Messiah (When the last Gentile has repented), and it is to bring in the end of this world. The Tribulation is a time of judgment upon this Earth, and not judgment upon God's people.

Another thing that Post Tribbers are in error is that they are against a few of the words of Jesus. Post Tribbers are all about telling others to stock up and prepare for the worst. Like the world we see now. Hoarders taking waaay more than they need while not leaving enough for others. This is how the world acts, and it is not how God's people should act. We are to be self sacrificing toward others. Jesus said, sufficient of the day is the evil thereof. Jesus says do not worry about tomorrow. There is a bit of a survivalist mentality in me. I get it. I do like the idea of preparing for the worst, but it should not be done by hoarding, but by knowledge and by having a few things that can be used in just being closer to nature and in being less dependant upon this unbelieving world.

iamlamad said:

This all may well be true, but it does not refer to the church being kept during God's wrath. Scripture is clear, the church is removed during God's wrath.

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You contradict yourself as well as scripture. How did you just agree and disagree on the same thing in one sentence?! I just showed a literal translation that says we will be here but protected and you still want to claim the “scripture is clear, the church is removed during God’s wrath.”

Where in scripture does it say “the church will be removed during God’s wrath?” In thirty years no one has ever shown me a “clear” teaching on this in scripture. Yes, many have misinterpreted and twisted scripture to explain this, but none of it has ever been clear. You’re shown a verse that actually says we’ll be here and you dismiss it and still hold on to something that isn’t there.

(this is where you either claim you’ve shown me those verses already or you just cut & paste tons of unrelated scripture to make it seem like you know what you’re talking about- or will you support your claim with specific verses that clearly state we will be removed before Gods wrath?)

Bible Highlighter said:

I started off as Pre-Trib, and then I was Pre-Wrath (Mid Trib) for a very short while, and then came back to being Pre-Trib again. This was because of the amount of biblical evidence in support for the Pre-Trib that convinced me. Now, I believe there are two calls. There is a Pre-Trib Rapture (A new mystery revealed by Paul), and a Gathering up by angels (Olivet Discourse).

I made a timeline of the Olivet Discourse, and Revelation and some OT verses over a period of two months. With prayer, I kept revising this timeline based on what Scripture said (Note: You can check this timeline out at CF here). I believe the "great tribulation" starts the antichrist killing 1/4th of the world's population in trying to enforce the mark. Many Christians will be killed during this time. This lines up with the 4th seal (Death). The 5th seal is the saints crying out for vengeance for their being recently killed. Note: Then we see these same dead saints (who were martyred by the antichrist) rejoicing and praising God in Revelation 7. Meaning: God is about to act soon. So with the 6th seal: God then responds by bringing in His wrath. Well, the really bad stuff of God's Wrath (as a part of the 6th seal) does not begin until the trumpet judgments start. This is God bringing in payback upon the Antichrist for killing His people; This would also be God answering the saint's cry for vengeance in the 5th seal, as well.

Side Note:

No offense, but I believe Post Tribbers have a persecution complex. I think some (not all of them) may feel they have to atone for something in their past life. While I do believe Christians can and will be persecuted. For I know Scripture says all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. I get that. But the Tribulation is not about persecution for Christ but it is about a time of getting the Jews to repent and recognize their Messiah (When the last Gentile has repented), and it is to bring in the end of this world. The Tribulation is a time of judgment upon this Earth, and not judgment upon God's people.

Another thing that Post Tribbers are in error is that they are against a few of the words of Jesus. Post Tribbers are all about telling others to stock up and prepare for the worst. Like the world we see now. Hoarders taking waaay more than they need while not leaving enough for others. This is how the world acts, and it is not how God's people should act. We are to be self sacrificing toward others. Jesus said, sufficient of the day is the evil thereof. Jesus says do not worry about tomorrow. There is a bit of a survivalist mentality in me. I get it. I do like the idea of preparing for the worst, but it should not be done by hoarding, but by knowledge and by having a few things that can be used in just being closer to nature and in being less dependant upon this unbelieving world.

Click to expand...

Really?

Then maybe you will be the 1st Pretribber to show me Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

iamlamad said:

6. A posttrib rapture makes attending the marriage and supper, which will take place in heaven before Christ descends, IMPOSSIBLE to attend.

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Not so! A close look at Revelation 19:7-10 will show it to relate to the one and only coming of Christ for His people. It tells us, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come [Gr. erchomai], and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are ‘called’ [Gr. kaleō] unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.”

This word “called” as in “called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb” comes from the Greek word kaleō meaning to be invited or bidden. This refers to the catching away of the saints when those on earth are bidden to meet Christ in the air.

This reading again shows correlates with the consistent catching away passages of Christ rescuing those who are ready: “the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.” This is a common thread that ties all these passages together. Those that are “ready are rescues” those that are caught unexpected are destroyed.

Clearly “the marriage of the Lamb” to “his wife” is referring to the final consummation of the relationship between Christ and His bride – the Church – at the second coming. This woman with her innate purity is such a contrast to the harlot in the introductory verses that is judged. The two women couldn’t be more diverse. One is judged the other is blessed. The status of the Lamb’s wife is outlined in the passage and confirms her honoured status; “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” The wife is the body of believers down through the years, which have placed their trust and eternity on the blood of Christ, whether in the old or the new economy.

The marriage union is the glorification feat where we are eternally changed in order to enjoy God forever – this is the final act of redemption. This is the marriage of the Lamb. In short, a prepared bride is made ready to unite with a prepared bridegroom. For this climactic event she is arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. This is her worthiness for marriage.

With the people of God rescued all is left is the fate of the wicked. Revelation 19:11-16 reveals a lot of vivid detail about the glorious coming of Christ. In it we see the heavenly army of God accompany Him as He comes to remove every vestige of rebellion. The seer John explains: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS” (11-16).

A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is actually coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.

In this narrative He comes as the Lord of glory and removes all evil with the power of His Word. He returns as a man of war to destroy all those left behind. Revelation 19:11 says, “in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” The imagery surrounding Christ in this reading is that of wrath and judgment. The nations have missed their day of opportunity like the wicked in previous judgments, now they must face their deserved recompense of destruction and eternal punishment. Christ comes in glory and power to pour out wrath, and we learn His eyes were as a flame of fire.” Here we see the indignation that Christ has for these enemies of God upon the earth. Those that are left behind of the nations – without exception – are trampled into a lost eternity on this moment of time.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth. He then “treadeth (or tramples) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

This chapter shows Babylon’s fall first and then the marriage union takes place after that, whereupon Christ returns to earth to destroy His enemies. This fits in with repeated Scripture that shows such an order. Revelation 19:15 shows Christ coming in wrath after the catching away: “And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

Undoubtedly the Church is Christ’s bride, but in Pretrib thinking the Church has already be removed before the tribulation. Pretrib theology has Christ having 2 brides, something that is absurd, unknown to Scripture, and extra-biblical.

Bible Highlighter said:

5). Revelation 3:10 teaches that the Lord will remove the church prior to the Tribulation.

In the Greek, the phrase “I also will keep you from” can mean nothing other than “I will prevent you from entering into.” Jesus Christ will honor the church by preventing it from entering the hour of testing, namely Daniel’s seventieth week, which is about to come upon the entire world. Only a pre-tribulational Rapture can explain how this can happen.

Source:
Nine Pre-Trib Rapture Reasons

Click to expand...

If one is to read this portion of Scripture in its most straight-forward and literal way it seems clear that this is specifically speaking to the local church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor) in A.D. 96. There is no way you would naturally relate it to some end-time global church prior to the coming of the Lord.

Pretribulationism misses (or ignores) the fact that the promise being given here was actually written to the Philadelphian believers in John’s day. The Philadelphians were firstly being commended for their steadfast faithfulness and then secondly, as a result of that, they were promised they would be rewarded by given special protection in the hour of trial. We should not forget that the issue in view was the brutal persecution of the Christians by the Romans in that day, specifically in Asia Minor. The obedience that is being recognized (“thou hast kept the word of my patience”) was that of these early Philadelphian believers. The New Living Translation puts it “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere.”

The Philadelphian Christians are promised protection “from the hour of temptation” on the expressed grounds of their ongoing obedience to God.

Preservation in the midst of trial is a common promise for faithful believers throughout all time. Whilst God’s people have experienced awful persecution through time, it has often been God’s heart in scriptural times and Church history to preserve His elect people in the midst of adversity rather than remove them from it. We see that throughout Scripture.

Bible Highlighter said:

More Reasons For the Pre-Tribulation Rapture:

1). The earthly kingdom of Christ promised in Revelation 6-18 does not mention the church as being on earth.

Because Revelation 1-3 uses the Greek word for church nineteen times, one would reasonably assume that if the church were on earth rather than in heaven in chapters 6-18, they would use “church” with similar frequency, but such is not the case. Therefore, one can assume that the church is not present on the earth during the period of tribulation described in Revelation 6-18 and that therefore the Lord has removed it from the earth and relocated it to heaven by means of the Rapture.

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Do Pretribbers ever do their own research before they make these statements, which the teachers have wrongly taught them. I will give you 15 solid reason why this reasoning is ridiculous and should be swiftly rejected. I will then explain these points.

The word “Church,” as in the elect redeemed (born again) Church, is not mentioned anywhere in Revelation. There are only references to the local churches (which includes saved and unsaved) in Asia Minor in the last book in the Bible.

2). Revelation 19 does not mention a Rapture even though that is where a post-translational Rapture (if true) would logically occur.

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Thus one can conclude that the Rapture will have already occurred.

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The destruction that occurs in Rev 19 will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

3). A post tribulation Rapture renders the Rapture concept itself inconsequential.

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If God preserves the church during the Tribulation, as post-tribulationists assert, then why have a Rapture at all? It makes no sense to Rapture believers from earth to heaven for no apparent purpose other than to return them immediately with Christ to earth. Further, a post tribulation Rapture makes the unique separation of the sheep (believers) from the goats (unbelievers) at the return of Christ in judgment redundant because a post tribulation Rapture would have already accomplished that.

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It all happens when He comes. We are rescued to the air and glorified while this earth is regenerated to remove all corruption and we are suitably attired to qualify us to inherit the new earth.

1 Corinthians 15:50-55 explains, “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption (phthora or decay) inherit incorruption (aphthrsia or unending existence). Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed (allasso), In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed (allasso). For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?”

Mortals are not qualified to inherit the new earth, as they are plagued by the blight of corruption – which is expressly forbidden from the new earth. Sinful mortals (in their corruptible bodies) will not even survive the Lord’s climactic Coming never mind enter the glorified earth. They cannot abide the glorious presence of Christ at His appearing. It would be totally impossible for flesh and blood to inhabit such a glorious setting. Anyway, there will be no more curse on the world, as death will be swallowed up in victory. The bondage of corruption will finally be banished.

We must note the careful connection between “flesh and blood” and “corruption” (which relates to “this present time”) in comparison to “the kingdom of God” (that appears in all its final glory when “the trumpet shall sound”) and “incorruption.” To secure man’s access to this glorified eternal kingdom, which is inherited alone by the meek (Psalm 37:9-11, 22, Matthew 5:5), “this corruptible must put on incorruption.” This passage, which is speaking of the period immediately following the Coming of Christ, confirms that no element of the fall can access the incorruptible eternal kingdom.

This changeover from “this present evil age” blighted with “the bondage of corruption” to the bliss and splendor of “incorruption” and “the glory which shall be revealed in us” doesn’t happen until the return of Christ. The transition from this temporal evil age to the new perfect eternal age happens at Christ’s return. Scripture show this glorious climatic event will see the glorification of God’s people and the glorification of this earth. The means by which God removes corruption from this earth at the end is by fire. People need to be glorified in order to equip them to populate the new perfected environment.

4). If God raptures and glorifies all believers just prior to the inauguration of the millennial kingdom (as a post tribulation Rapture demands) no one would be left to populate the earthly kingdom of Christ promised to Israel.

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It is not within the Lord’s plan and purpose to use glorified individuals to propagate the earth during the Millennium. Therefore, the Rapture needs to occur earlier so that after God has raptured all believers, He can save more souls-including Israel’s remnant- during the seven-year Tribulation. Those people can then enter the millennial kingdom in earthly form. The most reasonable possibility for this scenario is the pre-tribulational Rapture.

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That is why Premil is wrong. It doesn't add up. When Jesus comes in Revelation 19 it is the end of time, it is the end of the wicked and his wickedness and the end of the world.

sovereigngrace said:

Really?

Then maybe you will be the 1st Pretribber to show me Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

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My Quick Defense of the Pre-Trib Rapture:


There are two calls:

The Wedding (Marriage) Call for the Bride:
(A raising up of the body of believers that can happen at any day or hour that we do not know):
(This Rapture or call is for those who were Faithful to the Rapture & in living holy):

• Matthew 25:10


The Call After the Wedding:
(Middle of Tribulation, i.e. Olivet Discourse description of angels gathering the elect up):
(This is the Call for the Servant Who Reformed After Being Left Behind from The Rapture; This servant said that the Lord delayed His coming and they had their portion with the unbelievers by being left behind because of their unbelief):
(These servants are not called the "bride" because they were unfaithful to the call to marriage with the Rapture):

• Luke 12:36


Note: One call is for the actual wedding or marriage (Matthew 25:10), and one call is after the wedding or marriage (Luke 12:36) (Note: Some Modern Translations add "wedding feast" to Luke 12:36, but this is not what the King James says, which is a trusted translation that existed long before the Modern Translations showed up). The problem with these Modern Translations rendering on saying that this "call" happens after the "Wedding feast" is in the fact that the "Wedding feast" is the battle of Armageddon (Compare Revelation 19:9 with Revelation 19:17). This would mean there will be a call after Armageddon (Which does not make any sense).

The Restrainer Will Be Removed:

• 2 Thessalonians 2:7 (NASB), 2 Thessalonians 2:8


Note: 2 Thessalonians 2:7 suggests that the Antichrist will not appear until the Restrainer has been removed. I believe this "Restrainer" to be the Spirit indwelling the church body. When the church (filled with the Spirit) is removed, the Antichrist will come (or be revealed).

Promise of the Rapture:
(A Deliverance of the Wrath to Come):

• 1 Thessalonians 1:10


• 1 Thessalonians 5:9


The Rapture is a New Mystery Revealed:

• 1 Corinthians 15:51


Admonishes about being ready for the Rapture:
(In order to miss out on the 7 Year Tribulation):

• Matthew 25:13

We are told to pray so that we may escape all these things mentioned within the Tribulation:

• Luke 21:36
What things shall we escape if we pray?

• Luke 21:10
• Revelation 6:4

• Luke 21:11
• Revelation 6:12
• Luke 21:11

• Revelation 6:5-6

sovereigngrace said:

Really?

Then maybe you will be the 1st Pretribber to show me Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Click to expand...

Then there is Enoch. Enoch was taken by God whereby He did not see death. This is a type of the Rapture. Methuselah dying is a type of the body of Christ that is left behind in the Rapture during the time by the Antichrist and who also missed out on the Mid-Trib Gathering up by angels. These believers will have a third chance to be faithful to God, but it will cost them their lives. Also, other new converts to Christ will arise during the Mid Tribulation, as well (Who are not looking yet for their Lord). Many saints will be killed by the Antichrist (This is a type of Methuselah dying before the Judgment comes). Noah, and his family being preserved through the Ark is a type of the 144,000 Messianic Jews who are sealed or protected against the Judgments in God's Wrath. How long they are there is unknown to me at this time. But the point here is that these are types. Parallels pointing to what is to come. For God's Word is consistent.

sovereigngrace said:

Really?

Then maybe you will be the 1st Pretribber to show me Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Click to expand...

Ask yourself this question:

Does your Eschatological View (Mid Trib, Post Trib, No Rapture) sound like you are saying that the Lord delays His coming?

Jesus appears to warn us of these kinds of servants:


Think. How does Luke 12:45 apply today? Meaning: How does the words of Jesus ring true today when He says, "that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming"? Who today fits the description of these words? Who today is saying the Lord is delaying his coming (in a manner of speaking)?

I believe it is those who deny a Pre-Trib Rapture and that He is coming at a later time (i.e. They are saying in a manner of speaking that the Lord is delaying His coming).

In verse 46: The Lord will come in a day or hour when this kind of servant is not looking for Him. They will be surprised. They will have their portion with the unbelievers (Meaning they will be left behind to remain with unbelievers by missing out on the Rapture because they did not believe in it).

sovereigngrace said:

Really?

Then maybe you will be the 1st Pretribber to show me Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Click to expand...

I believe Revelation 21:2 is suggesting that the holy city coming down from out of Heaven is God's people who have been Raptured. Revelation 21:2 the city is adorned like a bride for her husband. This suggests that a marriage has already taken place already and that it's God's people who are coming upon this New Earth.

1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." (Revelation 21:1-3).

sovereigngrace said:

Really?

Then maybe you will be the 1st Pretribber to show me Scripture that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further Coming of Christ?

Click to expand...

You can check out my End Times Chronology (with Scripture) here at CF.

Pre-Trib Only - My New End Times Chronology

1. As Pre-Trib writer and leader John Walvoord admits, there is no actual verse of Scripture that by itself clearly teaches the Pre-Tribulation rapture.

2. Pre-Trib’ers force assumptions on many key Bible verses – especially assuming that all references to “saints” and to the “elect”, who are being persecuted and martyred during the “end-times’ tribulation”, must refer to those individuals who are saved after the Pre-Trib rapture has taken place. How are all these folks getting saved during the “end-times’ tribulation” if the “Church” and the “restrainer” have been removed?


3. There is no instance in the New Testament where the Lord Jesus Christ, or the Apostles made any statement to the effect that “the church is to be evacuated off of planet Earth seven years prior to the beginning of the end-times’ tribulation period”.


4. Despite taking several texts out of context from a few early church fathers’ writings, the Pre-Trib’ers really cannot find any predominant, popular teaching that supports the Pre-Trib rapture prophetic viewpoint in any era of Church history prior to the 1830s.


5. Many learned men of the Christian faith, such as John Bunyan, Charles Spurgeon, Charles Finney, John Knox, John Calvin, Martin Luther, George Whitefield, etc., were all solid Post-Trib believers!


6. The Pre-Trib rapture is a very big “cash cow” for Pre-Trib writers. Yet, there are some Pre-Trib’ers who will admit that their prophetic viewpoint is still a minority among Bible scholars. How can that be, you may ask, since so many prophecy books favor the “Pre-Trib” viewpoint? That is because so many of the major “Christian” publishing houses are, for the most part, owned and controlled by liberal Christians. Post-Trib writers often find it extremely hard to get their books published by these publishing houses, because Pre-Trib “sells”. Could that be because a rapture removal to heaven appeals to an “escapist” mentality? It’s that mentality of: “I sure don’t want to be here when the Antichrist takes over!” The Pre-Trib rapture theory appeals to many, after all, who wants to face persecution?


7. Despite the fact that many Pre-Trib’ers dislike author Dave MacPherson, they haven’t been able to disprove his well-documented findings that show that the Pre-Trib rapture’s origins (as far as any public teaching) date back to the 1830s – and not earlier than that time. Nor have the Pre-Trib’ers been able to disprove MacPherson’s findings that the vast majority of the early church fathers taught that the church would go through the “end-times’ tribulation” – and lots of tribulation before that.

8. Public teaching of the Pre-Trib rapture originated in the British Isles during the 1830s. This theory was then taken to America a little bit later, and was popularized by the “Scofield Study Bible”.


9. To believe in the Pre-Trib rapture, one must ignore several key Bible verses that speak directly against that idea, such as John 17:15 where the Lord Jesus Christ Himself prays that the Father NOT take believers OUT OF the world – and I Thessalonians 4:16, 17, which says that the Christians living at the time of Jesus Christ’s return are not caught up until after the “dead in Christ” are raised first.


10. Believing in the Pre-Trib rapture, goes against the prevalent theme of those portions of the Bible that deal with tribulation and persecution. That prevalent theme is “preservation in the midst of tribulation”. Note: the accounts of Daniel in the lions’ den, and of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the fiery furnace! Isaiah 43:2


11. To believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture, you have to think that you will be among a very “select group” of Christians who will not have to suffer horrible things during the “end-times’ tribulation”. Your “select group” excludes those millions of Christians from past centuries who were NOT “air evacuated” out of their tribulation and suffering, and the many individuals who become Christians during the “end-times’ tribulation”, and who will suffer martyrdom!


12. The Pre-Trib rapture belief, for the most part, seems to produce very bad fruit– that is, it seems to have neutralized” many Christians living today, causing them to sit back and to not fight evil. And that is because, don’t you know, they won’t be here when things get really bad. Could this “doctrine” have been specifically designed to make Christians complacent and careless?


13. There will be a ‘rapture’, but not to heaven, when Jesus Returns to earth. this will be the gathering of Matthew 24:31 and the rising into the air to meet Him of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Then we Christians will be with His always; ON EARTH.
Ref; Darryl Eberhart