Whose will prevails?

Der Alte · Mar 12, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
Rule #1 = the Will of God prevails.
Rule #2 = when in doubt consult rule #1.
“When ours are interrupted, His are not. His plans are proceeding exactly as scheduled, moving us always (including those minutes or hours or years which seem most useless or wasted or unendurable).” -Eliz. Elliot-

Did God's plans proceed exactly as scheduled in this passage from Jeremiah? God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
. . .
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

FineLinen · Mar 12, 2020

DamianWarS said:
You didn't answer the question. I'll ask it again case you misread it the first time.

Is the will of the created autonomous from the will of the Creator?

I now have my reading glasses on. The meaning of autonomous is the following>>>

AUTONOMOUS | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Take 2=

Rule #1 = the Will of God prevails.

Rule #2 = when in doubt consult rule #1.

“When ours are interrupted, His are not. His plans are proceeding exactly as scheduled, moving us always (including those minutes or hours or years which seem most useless or wasted or unendurable).” -Eliz. Elliot-

DamianWarS · Mar 12, 2020

FineLinen said:
I now have my reading glasses on. The meaning of autonomous is the following>>>

AUTONOMOUS | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Take 2=

Rule #1 = the Will of God prevails.

Rule #2 = when in doubt consult rule #1.

“When ours are interrupted, His are not. His plans are proceeding exactly as scheduled, moving us always (including those minutes or hours or years which seem most useless or wasted or unendurable).” -Eliz. Elliot-

Well since you have you're reading glasses on and have established the meaning perhaps you want to answer it. I'll put the question in again to save you the time searching the thread for it (I've also bolded it so there's no confusion)

Is the will of the created autonomous from the will of the Creator?

Hint: (since this is the third time asking) it's a yes/no response but you may expand upon it if you desire.

FineLinen · Mar 13, 2020

Man is a will

He is NOT free as a bird.

He attempts to be a law unto himself & be his own master, but alas is broken from the results of sin.

He has not got a free pass, but must be transformed in the Will of all wills.

His liberty is to sin in various dimensions of depravity and as such has latitude as a maverick.

He is a rebel, a maverick, whose will as a wee will shall bow ultimately to the Will of all wee wills!

Take 3=

Rule #1 = the Will of God prevails.

Rule #2 = when in doubt consult rule #1.

DamianWarS · Mar 13, 2020

FineLinen said:
Man is a will

He is NOT free as a bird.

He attempts to be a law unto himself & be his own master, but alas is broken from the results of sin.

He has not got a free pass, but must be transformed in the Will of all wills.

His liberty is to sin in various dimensions of depravity and as such has latitude as a maverick.

He is a rebel, a maverick, whose will as a wee will shall bow ultimately to the Will of all wee wills!

Take 3=

Rule #1 = the Will of God prevails.

Rule #2 = when in doubt consult rule #1.

You still haven't answer it.

Let's try for the 4th time

Is the will of the created autonomous from the will of the Creator?

Hillsage · Mar 13, 2020

DamianWarS said:
You still haven't answer it.

Let's try for the 4th time

Is the will of the created autonomous from the will of the Creator?

What does scripture say?

Phil 2:13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Maybe His autonomous will over man extends beyond the temporal minded view of a salvation espoused by orthodoxy.

DamianWarS · Mar 13, 2020

Hillsage said:
What does scripture say?

Phil 2:13 for it is God who worketh in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.

Maybe His autonomous will over man extends beyond the temporal minded view of a salvation espoused by orthodoxy.

I'm not sure why you have such an aversion to a simple question. I'll ask it again

Is the will of the created autonomous from the will of the Creator?

this is a yes or no question. It may be better simply to say you don't want to answer it so I can stop asking the question and leave the thread.

FineLinen · Mar 13, 2020

DamianWarS said:
I'm not sure why you have such an aversion to a simple question. I'll ask it again

Is the will of the created autonomous from the will of the Creator?

this is a yes or no question. It may be better simply to say you don't want to answer it so I can stop asking the question and leave the thread.

According to the dictionary definition of autonomous, "independent & having the power to make your own decisions" lacks the viewpoint of the Creator of all little wills.

Man has a will, that will is broken, busted by disobedience and only repairable by the Originator of all wills, the Will of all wills.

Busted, broken, fractured, shattered, smashed

Hillsage · Mar 13, 2020

DamianWarS said:
I'm not sure why you have such an aversion to a simple question. I'll ask it again

Is the will of the created autonomous from the will of the Creator?

this is a yes or no question. It may be better simply to say you don't want to answer it so I can stop asking the question and leave the thread.

No will trumps His will. So NO.

FineLinen · Mar 13, 2020

Hillsage said:
No will trumps His will. So NO.

"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

"I know that You can do all things, & no purpose of Yours can be thwarted."

Rule #1 = the Will of God prevails.

Rule #2 = when in doubt consult rule #1.

Der Alte · Mar 13, 2020

DamianWarS said:
I'm not sure why you have such an aversion to a simple question. I'll ask it again
Is the will of the created autonomous from the will of the Creator?
this is a yes or no question. It may be better simply to say you don't want to answer it so I can stop asking the question and leave the thread.

It has been my experience that some folks are not interested in a reasonable, rational discussion but only in spamming their selective verses and quotes from their favorite writers.

FineLinen · Mar 13, 2020

Our Abba has life in Himself. Nothing is necessary to Him. He moves within Himself. The all flows from Him, is sustained by Him and for Him. He needs none of us little rascals to survive. He is complete in Himself.

However

He chooses to encompass us into Himself, the Will of all wills reconciling by at-one-ment the broken and bruised mass disenfranchised by sin.

“Imagine that Jesus is calling you today. He extends a second invitation to accept His Father's love. And maybe you answer, "Oh, I know that. It's old hat."

And God answers, 'No, that's what you don't know. You don't know how much I love you. The moment you think you understand is the moment you do not understand. I am God, not man. You tell others about Me - your words are glib. My words are written in the blood of My only Son. The next time you preach about My love with such obnoxious familiarity, I may come and blow your whole prayer meeting apart.

Did you know that every time you tell Me you love Me, I say thank you?” -Brennan Manning-

Good news for the bedraggled, beat-up, and burnt out.

Hillsage · Mar 13, 2020

FineLinen said:
"All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?'

"I know that You can do all things, & no purpose of Yours can be thwarted."

Rule #1 = the Will of God prevails.

Rule #2 = when in doubt consult rule #1.

I understood and agreed with you concerning what you said when you posted this the first time. My first post answer was also a NO without having said Yes/No. Hopefully Damion can now unpack whatever point he wasn’t making in requiring a Yes/No.

Der Alte · Mar 13, 2020

Hillsage said:
...

Hillsage said:
No will trumps His will. So NO.

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
...
Rule #1 = the Will of God prevails.
Rule #2 = when in doubt consult rule #1.

Did Israel and Judah's wills trump God's will in Jeremiah 13:1-14?
Did God's will prevail in Jer 13:1-14?
.....Note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s express will, clearly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
· · ·
14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Hillsage · Mar 13, 2020

Der Alter said:
…..This passage very much speaks to God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites and Judeans would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”

You SIMPLY fail to understand that God's ETERNAL MINDED WILL didn't END with your TEMPORAL MINDED OPINION of an eschatology based upon Jeremiah 2500 years ago. His plan and WILL live on to this day AND FOR THE AGES TO COME. :idea:

Jer 13:1Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of the .

I refuse to waste time with one whose posts sound like one too indoctrinated to see beyond what they have been taught to believe and continue to defend. So here is my short answer to your never ending plethora of posts which are mostly never read by me anymore. The ULTIMATE END of the WILL OF GOD for Israel is no more over today than it has been for His lamb slain before the foundation of His creation. What we believe goes beyond what you can believe or comprehend..."in the ages to come". This post of yours PROVES it. You have also proven that to me for so many years, and yet you still post to me like I'm the one who doesn't understand. :doh:

Enjoy your self endorsed "Greek parsing" accolades....only to ignore scholars who also "parse Greek" and have written scholarly books opposing your parsed opinion. Therein is the definition of indoctrinated as I understand.

My explanation is also why 'one' of our side has you on ignore....just in case you haven't figured that out. I personally have never 'ignored' anyone. NOR have I ever 'reported' anyone. To me that's just the height of spiritual immaturity in a forum like this, regardless of the 'letter of the law' rules governing this ORTHODOX URL with an UNORTHODOX forum which I am personally thankful for. Having said ALL this, I bid you a hopeful and mutual adieu. :wave:

FineLinen · Mar 14, 2020

Hillsage said:
You SIMPLY fail to understand that God's ETERNAL MINDED WILL didn't END with your TEMPORAL MINDED OPINION of an eschatology based upon Jeremiah 2500 years ago. His plan and WILL live on to this day AND FOR THE AGES TO COME.

I refuse to waste time with one whose posts sound like one too indoctrinated to see beyond what they have been taught to believe and continue to defend. So here is my short answer to your never ending plethora of posts which are mostly never read by me anymore. The ULTIMATE END of the WILL OF GOD for Israel is no more over today than it has been for His lamb slain before the foundation of His creation. What we believe goes beyond what you can believe or comprehend..."in the ages to come". This post of yours PROVES it. You have also proven that to me for so many years, and yet you still post to me like I'm the one who doesn't understand. Enjoy your self endorsed "Greek parsing" accolades....only to ignore scholars who also "parse Greek" and have written scholarly books opposing your parsed opinion. Therein is the definition of indoctrinated as I understand.

My explanation is also why 'one' of our side has you on ignore....just in case you haven't figured that out. I personally have never 'ignored' anyone. NOR have I ever 'reported' anyone. To me that's just the height of spiritual immaturity in a forum like this, regardless of the 'letter of the law' rules governing this ORTHODOX URL with an UNORTHODOX forum which I am personally thankful for. Having said ALL this, I bid you a hopeful and mutual adieu.

My brother Sage: Three quotes that are among those treasured by me =

"Man finds it hard to get what he wants, because he does not want the best; God finds it hard to give, because He would give the best, and man will not take it." - George MacDonald-

“The fierce words of Jesus addressed to the Pharisees of His day stretch across the bands of time. Today they are directed not only to fallen televangelists but to each of us. We miss Jesus' point entirely when we use His words as weapons against others. They are to be taken personally by each of us. This is the form and shape of Christian Pharisaism in our time. Hypocrisy is not the prerogative of people in high places. The most impoverished among us is capable of it. Hypocrisy is the natural expression of what is meanest in us all.”

"Acquaint yourself with your own ignorance." -Isaac Watts-

tdidymas · Mar 14, 2020

DamianWarS said:
Well since you have you're reading glasses on and have established the meaning perhaps you want to answer it. I'll put the question in again to save you the time searching the thread for it (I've also bolded it so there's no confusion)

Is the will of the created autonomous from the will of the Creator?

Hint: (since this is the third time asking) it's a yes/no response but you may expand upon it if you desire.

If you'll allow me to pipe in, I'd like to answer this by some observations from scripture which begs reasonable conclusions.

1. Adam was made in the image of God, which means his nature fed from God's nature, and so in his innocent state his will was God's will 100%. IOW, he was led by the Spirit of God dwelling in him.
2. After his fall, he was still in the image of God in a very diminished way. Still in God's image in the sense that he still has some level of honesty (although now a liar), still has intelligence (although very stupid from a spiritual wisdom standpoint), still could love (although in a self-centered manner), and other such character similarities to God but with defects.
3. God said "he has become like us" and therefore cast him out of the garden away from the tree of life, so that he would not live forever in that depraved condition.

So it begs the question, in what way did Adam "become like God"? Was the serpent telling the truth about man's potential? NO. If man was like God in the way God designed in his innocent state, then how could Adam "become like God" in the state of depravity? I believe the only conclusion we can come to is that Adam becomes "like God" in autonomy. That is, he becomes his own authority (no longer under God's authority and direction), but makes his own decisions about good and evil, right and wrong.

This points to one essential truth about man's spiritual condition: that man's autonomy (self-direction) is the essence of the sinful nature. It's the spiritual condition of man who is without God in the world. Rom. 8:14, "those who are led by the Spirit of God, are the sons of God." So we must be born of God and led by His Spirit, or else the sinful nature (autonomy) will prevail. It's all about who is in control. If I insist on autonomous free will ("free" in the sense of not being God-directed), then I am in control, my autonomy prevails, and I'm a sinner. But if I believe in God in the sense of being God-directed (led by the Spirit), then I am delivered from my depraved autonomy, and God's will prevails in me.
TD

DamianWarS · Mar 14, 2020

tdidymas said:
So it begs the question, in what way did Adam "become like God"? Was the serpent telling the truth about man's potential? NO. If man was like God in the way God designed in his innocent state, then how could Adam "become like God" in the state of depravity? I believe the only conclusion we can come to is that Adam becomes "like God" in autonomy. That is, he becomes his own authority (no longer under God's authority and direction), but makes his own decisions about good and evil, right and wrong.

God always has authority regardless what we perceive it as. An autonomous will doesn't mean we act contary to the will of God it means we can and God will not step in and force us. God ultimately has control but yet allows us to act in a system of autonomy. We are to surrender this autonomous will to serve Christ and be directed by his will not ours. Choice is still a fundamental principal in both, we are not forced but simply shown the way, in this age we may still flex our autonomy and do as we see fit but in the next we will no longer have this privilege or at least our "flexing" will be judged.

tdidymas · Mar 14, 2020

DamianWarS said:
God always has authority regardless what we perceive it as. An autonomous will doesn't mean we act contary to the will of God it means we can and God will not step in and force us. God ultimately has control but yet allows us to act in a system of autonomy. We are to surrender this autonomous will to serve Christ and be directed by his will not ours. Choice is still a fundamental principal in both, we are not forced but simply shown the way, in this age we may still flex our autonomy and do as we see fit but in the next we will no longer have this privilege or at least our "flexing" will be judged.

According to the apostle Paul in Rom. 3:10-18, people not born again will never choose to do God's will, and this is why they will be condemned in the end. If you claim that man's autonomy can make righteous choices, then you have a problem with what Paul teaches there.

What is deceiving is that natural choices appear to be righteous sometimes. But Paul's teaching is spiritual by nature, and it means when people are tested with tribulation, the evil nature will surface. Anyone can claim to be righteous and able to make right decisions when times are easy. But when things get really rough, the behaviors look more like Rom. 3:10-18. People don't naturally have the faith it takes to stay committed to holiness and endure through tribulations, unless they are led by the Holy Spirit. Man's natural fallen autonomy doesn't cut the mustard.
TD

DamianWarS · Mar 15, 2020

tdidymas said:
According to the apostle Paul in Rom. 3:10-18, people not born again will never choose to do God's will, and this is why they will be condemned in the end. If you claim that man's autonomy can make righteous choices, then you have a problem with what Paul teaches there.

What is deceiving is that natural choices appear to be righteous sometimes. But Paul's teaching is spiritual by nature, and it means when people are tested with tribulation, the evil nature will surface. Anyone can claim to be righteous and able to make right decisions when times are easy. But when things get really rough, the behaviors look more like Rom. 3:10-18. People don't naturally have the faith it takes to stay committed to holiness and endure through tribulations, unless they are led by the Holy Spirit. Man's natural fallen autonomy doesn't cut the mustard.
TD

We have no capacity on our own to do righteousness as everything we do is tainted. In order to do righteousness or be righteous we must be sanctified through Christ first. But even in this we still may choose to go against God and engage in sinfulness where there are no redemptive models. Without Christ the acts have no redemptive power, only through Christ may our choices be redeemed.

We still have a choice to follow God and be on his team where he redeems us or we may reject God and his will he desires. Our autonomy doesn't sanctify, only Christ does but that doesn't mean we don't have the capacity to do what is right and wrong.

Whose will prevails?

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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