What if Jesus had been executed by lethal injection?

Aussie Pete · Mar 13, 2020

timothyu said:
More of a political message IMO. I'm sure he was quite aware that the people had longed for their messiah to come save them. This would be a sign of what that messiah regardless of who the people thought it was, could expect in order to stifle the hopes of the people. Like with many people in the justice system today, they are unjustly over-punished as an example to others,.

The difference is that Lord Jesus was punished for a purpose. His punishment was foretold in the OT and He Himself told His disciples what would happen. Punishing criminals is a job for the courts. A lot of people would gladly see serial offenders off the street permanently. It's not only about punishment. It's also public safety.

My beef is that so-called white collar criminals get sentences that seem laughable compared with the crime. However, I rest in the knowledge that God catches up with everyone sooner or later.

Aussie Pete · Mar 13, 2020

Jok said:
Did you see The Passion? I don't even know how he lasted a few hours up there! I seriously doubt that that is what most crucified people went through prior to the actual crucifixion.

Most people did not survive the whipping that Lord took, let alone the cross afterwards. The Roman scourge was much like the infamous cat o nine tails. It rather snuffs out some ideas that Lord fainted and was revived by the disciples.

Aussie Pete · Mar 13, 2020

Quid est Veritas? said:
Personally, I think the suffering is very important. Jesus is the Scapegoat for our sins, which is why He suffers. That is also why we needed a drawn out execution, to put the full reality of violence before us, so that in seeing the innocent suffer, we can fathom the evils we commit to one another. Crucifixion was the worst Rome could offer, but He could just as likely been impaled or other such horrible death. That it fulfills prophecy or mimics the Day of Atonement or sacrifices is not a specific reason for Crucifixion in my opinion, as if Jesus was meant to die in another manner, those things would have mimicked that method, or prophecy would have pointed to it. A simple death though, is insufficient, as it does not depict the sheer violence and evil that our sins necessarily leads to. A part of its effect is in depicting patient suffering in extreme circumstances, and acting as an invertion of the scapegoating principle to have us realise our own responsibility for the evils of the world.

The cross is central. It was made from a tree - "Cursed is he who hangs from a tree" (Galatians 3:13). Mankind was under the curse of the Law because we broke it. Lord Jesus was made to be a curse for us.

Robban · Mar 13, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
No, when God creates a prophecy he has a plan for the future in mind. The plan for the future determines the prophecy. The prophecy does not determine the plan for the future.

So to say that the reason for cruelty in the Crucifixion was the existence of the suffering servant verses in Isaiah (and other prophecies) is not giving a real reason.

The Master of the universe communicates to mankind through prophesy,

Seldom were the Prophets heeded though.

Most often it concerned a course adjusment,
a redirection of direction in which Israel were heading.

So there is a difference between prophesy and prediction.

Though some prophesy may concern the future.

But prophesy departed from Israel some 2,500 years ago.

But we are not left out in the cold, there is a lesser form of prophesy, divine inspiration, Ruach HaKodesh
Holy spirit.

timothyu · Mar 13, 2020

Jok said:
I do like how some people point out that the method of the day was stoning when those prophecies were given.

Technological advances. What can ya do.

cloudyday2 · Mar 13, 2020

Robban said:
But prophesy departed from Israel some 2,500 years ago.

But we are not left out in the cold, there is a lesser form of prophesy, divine inspiration, Ruach HaKodesh
Holy spirit.

What led them to conclude that prophesy had departed?

Also, how does divine inspiration differ from prophesy?

cloudyday2 · Mar 13, 2020

timothyu said:
Technological advances. What can ya do.

Stoning still happened of course. Jesus was nearly stoned. Stephen was stoned to death. Paul was stoned and left for dead.

The virtue of stoning was its communal nature. Ideally everybody in the community threw a stone to express their condemnation, and nobody could be blamed individually for carrying-out the execution. Jewish society had very little hierarchy prior to the monarchs, so stoning was probably ideal for them.

The firing squad had some similarity to stoning. There was often a group of soldiers with rifles firing simultaneously. I suspect this was designed to prevent any soldier from feeling individual guilt as the executioner. I suppose another part of it was to ensure a fatal wound immediately.

I believe there are some stone age skeletons of people who were shot repeatedly with arrows, and I have wondered if that was something like stoning (arrowing I guess).

Robban · Mar 13, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
What led them to conclude that prophesy had departed?

Also, how does divine inspiration differ from prophesy?

I do not sit on my hands on Shabbos but I i do not post
either, now only a few minutes left.

See you later alligator, haha.

timothyu · Mar 13, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
The firing squad had some similarity to stoning. There was often a group of soldiers with rifles firing simultaneously. I suspect this was designed to prevent any soldier from feeling individual guilt as the executioner. I suppose another part of it was to ensure a fatal wound immediately.

In the stoning age in Jewish life the accuser always had to throw the first stone. That seems logical. As for firing squads, one rifle handed out always had a blank and those on the squad would never know if they had actually killed someone.

Jok · Mar 13, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
No, when God creates a prophecy he has a plan for the future in mind. The plan for the future determines the prophecy. The prophecy does not determine the plan for the future.

So to say that the reason for cruelty in the Crucifixion was the existence of the suffering servant verses in Isaiah (and other prophecies) is not giving a real reason.

I think I understand. So you’re saying that when you ask for a reason for the cruelty, that is a question that goes all the way back to the giving of the prophecy. But somebody that answers by saying that the prophecy is the reason, they are answering the wrong question, they are trying to give you proof that prophecies work, but they are not giving a reason as to why God choose cruelty?

timothyu · Mar 13, 2020

Jok said:
but they are not giving a reason as to why God choose cruelty?

Is it not man that chooses the cruelty and God is just telling us what He sees? Besides, we've always been rather easy to read in that department. God can always depend on man to be self serving which inflicts something or other on others while never wanting the same for themselves..

cloudyday2 · Mar 13, 2020

Jok said:
I think I understand. So you’re saying that when you ask for a reason for the cruelty, that is a question that goes all the way back to the giving of the prophecy. But somebody that answers by saying that the prophecy is the reason, they are answering the wrong question, they are trying to give you proof that prophecies work, but they are not giving a reason as to why God choose cruelty?

Yep that is correct.

Quid est Veritas? · Mar 13, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
But when those animals were sacrificed there was no cruelty

What are you talking about? The scapegoat was literally chased into the desert to die of exposure, although some argue it was herded over a cliff to fall to its death. Likewise, many sacrificial rites required the animals to bellow, so scream, during sacrifice. This is still seen in muti killings in Africa, but was also evident in Aztec sacrifice. I don't know how valid it is in the Semitic tradition, but the whole thing of grieving for Adonis entails suffering as a form of sacrifice itself.

keith99 · Mar 13, 2020

Thomas refusing to believe until he saw the needle mark on Christs arm simply would not work well at all.

usexpat97 · Mar 13, 2020

If Jesus were executed by injection, then several Old Testament prophecies about the manner of His death would not have come true. But no matter...that is not what happened.

Jok · Mar 13, 2020

Quid est Veritas? said:
What are you talking about? The scapegoat was literally chased into the desert to die of exposure, although some argue it was herded over a cliff to fall to its death. Likewise, many sacrificial rites required the animals to bellow, so scream, during sacrifice. This is still seen in muti killings in Africa, but was also evident in Aztec sacrifice. I don't know how valid it is in the Semitic tradition, but the whole thing of grieving for Adonis entails suffering as a form of sacrifice itself.

My rating didn’t mean I am laughing at your explanation. Just your opening sentence of “What are you talking about?” made me crack up lol

timothyu · Mar 13, 2020

keith99 said:
Thomas refusing to believe until he saw the needle mark on Christs arm simply would not work well at all.

Exactly. Imagine if He had been beheaded like John. Here Thomas, hold this.

cloudyday2 · Mar 14, 2020

Quid est Veritas? said:
What are you talking about? The scapegoat was literally chased into the desert to die of exposure, although some argue it was herded over a cliff to fall to its death. Likewise, many sacrificial rites required the animals to bellow, so scream, during sacrifice. This is still seen in muti killings in Africa, but was also evident in Aztec sacrifice. I don't know how valid it is in the Semitic tradition, but the whole thing of grieving for Adonis entails suffering as a form of sacrifice itself.

As I understand it, in Judaism the procedure for sacrificing animals seemed to be intended to minimize the suffering. Your example of the scapegoat might be an exception. I'm sure the scapegoat was terrified and confused to be chased over a cliff. Some goats are pretty nimble climbers, so I wonder how many Israelites fell to their deaths trying to force the goat to fall to its death. LOL Somewhere I read that the scapegoat ritual seemed to be an oddity. There was also the ritual of dragging a bloody animal through the temple for cleansing that was an oddity.

Robban · Mar 14, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
What led them to conclude that prophesy had departed?

Also, how does divine inspiration differ from prophesy?

The era of prophesy came to an end,
the last generation of those who began to prophesy before the destruction of the first Holy Temple (423 BCE).
A number that generation survived the 70 year old Babylonian exile.
some of that long-lived generation lived to witness
the building of the second, and so the demise of that generation.

Divine inspiration was and is not limited to any special
generation, it is the province of the tzaddikim,
righteous men and women of all generations.

However,
in a letter to the Jews of Yemen Maimonides recounts an age-old tradition that,
"Shortly before the messianic era,
prophesy will return to the Jewish people.

timothyu · Mar 14, 2020

Robban said:
"Shortly before the messianic era,
prophesy will return to the Jewish people.

Like John the Baptist

What if Jesus had been executed by lethal injection?

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