Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

  • I am a Universalist. All will eventually be saved by God's grace.

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Hammster

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“But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-6‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You need to look up the definition of the word “For” it means because. So when Paul says these things must not be named among you BECAUSE this you know with certainty that no immoral, impure, or covetous man has an inheritance in the kingdom of God and Christ this is the reason why they must not do these things.
You can bold it all you want. Paul never says that they can lose their inheritance.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Once again, you are reading into scripture what isn’t there. All he’s saying, much like in Romans 6, is to not live a life like those who are not saved. There nothing stated about losing an inheritance. Nothing.

Ok so let’s get back to the beginning of our discussion. What exactly is being said in John 15:6? What does cast away to wither and cast in the fire to be burned mean?
 
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BNR32FAN

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You are assuming something not in the text. It never says anything about anyone stopping the production of fruit.

The term “not bearing fruit” means not bearing fruit. If someone has stopped bearing fruit they are NOT BEARING FRUIT. If someone has never bore fruit they are NOT BEARING FRUIT.
 
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BNR32FAN

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You can bold it all you want. Paul never says that they can lose their inheritance.

Who is Paul writing to? To the saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ whom, like you said, are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. These people have an inheritance in the kingdom of God, but if they turn back to a sinful way of life they won’t have it. He’s telling them don’t do this because you know that no one who lives this way has an inheritance in the kingdom of God. The choice is their’s whether they receive that inheritance or not.

Paul even wrote to Timothy and said if we deny Him, He will deny us. Both Paul and Timothy had long been saved. Paul was specifically chosen by Christ Himself and Paul still admits that he is capable of denying Christ and as a result Christ would deny him.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Yep. They don’t hear His voice and follow. Those given to Him by the Father, however, are His. He won’t lose any.

Ok your quoting John 6 now. That’s NOT what Jesus said.

“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:39‬ ‭NASB‬‬

the Greek word translated to “will” doesn’t only mean something that God has deemed to be but can also mean something God desires. We see this example in 1 Timothy 2:4.


“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I’m confident that your not a universalist and agree that God has not deemed that all men will repent and be saved.

Now if your interpretation of John 6:39 were true then John 15:6 would be impossible. No one can come to Christ unless The Father draws them so then according to your interpretation it would be impossible for someone to fail to abide in Christ as Jesus said in John 15:6. But if it is God’s desire that Jesus lose none which we already know that it is God’s desire that none should perish then that interpretation doesn’t make Jesus’ statement in John 15:6 an impossibility. So your interpretation of John 6:39 cannot be correct.
 
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Hammster

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Ok so let’s get back to the beginning of our discussion. What exactly is being said in John 15:6? What does cast away to wither and cast in the fire to be burned mean?
It means what it says. Those not in Christ are cast away. What it doesn’t say is they ever produced fruit.
 
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Hammster

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The term “not bearing fruit” means not bearing fruit. If someone has stopped bearing fruit they are NOT BEARING FRUIT. If someone has never bore fruit they are NOT BEARING FRUIT.
Your assumption is they they stopped bearing fruit. I have already shown why that’s not possible.
 
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Hammster

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Who is Paul writing to? To the saints in Ephesus who are faithful to Christ whom, like you said, are sealed with the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption. These people have an inheritance in the kingdom of God, but if they turn back to a sinful way of life they won’t have it. He’s telling them don’t do this because you know that no one who lives this way has an inheritance in the kingdom of God. The choice is their’s whether they receive that inheritance or not.

Paul even wrote to Timothy and said if we deny Him, He will deny us. Both Paul and Timothy had long been saved. Paul was specifically chosen by Christ Himself and Paul still admits that he is capable of denying Christ and as a result Christ would deny him.
Which text specifically says they will lose their inheritance?
 
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Hammster

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Ok your quoting John 6 now. That’s NOT what Jesus said.

“This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:39‬ ‭NASB‬‬

the Greek word translated to “will” doesn’t only mean something that God has deemed to be but can also mean something God desires. We see this example in 1 Timothy 2:4.


“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

I’m confident that your not a universalist and agree that God has not deemed that all men will repent and be saved.

Now if your interpretation of John 6:39 were true then John 15:6 would be impossible. No one can come to Christ unless The Father draws them so then according to your interpretation it would be impossible for someone to fail to abide in Christ as Jesus said in John 15:6. But if it is God’s desire that Jesus lose none which we already know that it is God’s desire that none should perish then that interpretation doesn’t make Jesus’ statement in John 15:6 an impossibility. So your interpretation of John 6:39 cannot be correct.
I didn’t quote John 6. I used the same verses from John 10 that you did. Read them again.
 
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BNR32FAN

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It means what it says. Those not in Christ are cast away. What it doesn’t say is they ever produced fruit.

You mean those who didn’t remain in Christ are cast away. They were in Christ then they fell away.
 
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com7fy8

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First, a person needs to be turned

"from the power of Satan to God" > in Acts 26:18.

God's grace almighty in a person changes him or her out of Satan's kingdom, into God's kingdom. This includes the person trusting in Jesus on Calvary's cross > Ephesians 1:12.

There can be various works of ministering that are included in this process . . . whichever God has people doing for each person. Plus, there are the things God has the person doing. Even God's arranging of circumstances are necessary, in bringing a person to Jesus.

And we need to submit to Christ and learn from Him >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

Whatever Jesus has a person do, in this process, is essential. Each thing God has us doing in His grace has us being effected by His grace making us more and more like Jesus so we are ready to spend eternity with Him. So, like I offer, every thing God has us do is essential. I think this can be what James means by saying we are justified by works and not only by faith. He means works which God has us doing in sharing with Him.

He does not mean self-produced works or works of Moses' Law or copy-catting religious activities. But God in us has us doing what is essential > it is essential if God has us doing something. And what His word tells us to do is essential, or God would not tell us to do this. And Isaiah 55:11 guarantees that God's word "shall" do all He desires; so I understand that a child of God is guaranteed that God's word will succeed in us to have us doing all which God desires, and so we can not lose salvation or miss out on how God's word is guaranteed to succeed with us in this life.

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

"Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." (1 Timothy 4:16)

So, from this I see how there can be ministry of the word which is essential for our salvation. And there are works done in order to minister God's word. Ones who so minister God's word save themselves and those who hear them. It is all included. Paul gave this writing to Timothy, and I understand this has application for those whom God approves to minister His word.

And whatever His word says to do is essential.

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

I understand this means what God personally in us has us doing in His own love >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, I would say this means doing works which God's grace in us has us doing. And this grace in us changes us to be more maturely like Christ while we do what His grace has us doing.

So, I guess God's word means we are saved by grace through faith, then saved by how God's grace changes us to become like Jesus (guaranteed by Romans 8:29), while we do the works He has us doing, and He has people doing His works of ministry to help us along. So, it is not only our own works, but we labor as family, doing family works, I guess you could say :) God our Father is about family; we are saved as His family, everyone helping even to minister His grace >

"Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers." (Ephesians 4:29)

So, we all minister God's grace > producing edification that is "necessary". I would say this means essential for salvation, or how can it be "necessary"? So, yes each of us is this important. And, like I consider, Isaiah 55:11 guarantees that God's word succeeds in doing this with us. So we are guaranteed to spend eternity with Jesus, while also we are guaranteed now to succeed in doing all God Himself means by His word.

And His word tells us what to do about how we fail > Hebrews 12:4-14, 1 Peter 5:7. So, do this :)
 
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BNR32FAN

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Your assumption is they they stopped bearing fruit. I have already shown why that’s not possible.

No I never said they stopped bearing fruit. Your the one who mentioned stopping in post 225 not me. I’ve only been replying to your posts about stopping bearing fruit.
 
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Hammster

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You mean those who didn’t remain in Christ are cast away. They were in Christ then they fell away.
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
— John 15:6

That doesn’t say what you are claiming.
 
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Hammster

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No I never said they stopped bearing fruit. Your the one who mentioned stopping in post 225 not me. I’ve only been replying to your posts about stopping bearing fruit.
If they never bore fruit then they weren’t saved. Those in Christ bear fruit.
 
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BNR32FAN

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First, a person needs to be turned

"from the power of Satan to God" > in Acts 26:18.

God's grace almighty in a person changes him or her out of Satan's kingdom, into God's kingdom. This includes the person trusting in Jesus on Calvary's cross > Ephesians 1:12.

There can be various works of ministering that are included in this process . . . whichever God has people doing for each person. Plus, there are the things God has the person doing. Even God's arranging of circumstances are necessary, in bringing a person to Jesus.

And we need to submit to Christ and learn from Him >

"'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

Whatever Jesus has a person do, in this process, is essential. Each thing God has us doing in His grace has us being effected by His grace making us more and more like Jesus so we are ready to spend eternity with Him. So, like I offer, every thing God has us do is essential. I think this can be what James means by saying we are justified by works and not only by faith. He means works which God has us doing in sharing with Him.

He does not mean self-produced works or works of Moses' Law or copy-catting religious activities. But God in us has us doing what is essential > it is essential if God has us doing something. And what His word tells us to do is essential, or God would not tell us to do this. And Isaiah 55:11 guarantees that God's word "shall" do all He desires; so I understand that a child of God is guaranteed that God's word will succeed in us to have us doing all which God desires, and so we can not lose salvation or miss out on how God's word is guaranteed to succeed with us in this life.

"Therefore submit to God." (in James 4:7)

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

"Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you." (1 Timothy 4:16)

So, from this I see how there can be ministry of the word which is essential for our salvation. And there are works done in order to minister God's word. Ones who so minister God's word save themselves and those who hear them. It is all included. Paul gave this writing to Timothy, and I understand this has application for those whom God approves to minister His word.

And whatever His word says to do is essential.

"Let all that you do be done with love." (1 Corinthians 16:14)

I understand this means what God personally in us has us doing in His own love >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

So, I would say this means doing works which God's grace in us has us doing. And this grace in us changes us to be more maturely like Christ while we do what His grace has us doing.

So, I guess God's word means we are saved by grace through faith, then saved by how God's grace changes us to become like Jesus (guaranteed by Romans 8:29), while we do the works He has us doing, and He has people doing His works of ministry to help us along. So, it is not only our own works, but we labor as family, doing family works, I guess you could say :) God our Father is about family; we are saved as His family, everyone helping even to minister His grace >

"Let no corrupt word proceed out of your mouth, but what is good for necessary edification, that it may impart grace to the hearers." (Ephesians 4:29)

So, we all minister God's grace > producing edification that is "necessary". I would say this means essential for salvation, or how can it be "necessary"? So, yes each of us is this important. And, like I consider, Isaiah 55:11 guarantees that God's word succeeds in doing this with us. So we are guaranteed to spend eternity with Jesus, while also we are guaranteed now to succeed in doing all God Himself means by His word.

And His word tells us what to do about how we fail > Hebrews 12:4-14, 1 Peter 5:7. So, do this :)

About Isaiah 55:11, what if God’s desire is that all who will choose to repent and follow His word will be saved? We already know that according to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 that God desires all men to repent and be saved yet many who have heard His word have rejected it. So what are your thoughts on this dilemma?
 
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BNR32FAN

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If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
— John 15:6

That doesn’t say what you are claiming.

So your saying this person was never in Christ to begin with? How can they remain in Christ if they were never in Christ to begin with?
 
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BNR32FAN

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If they never bore fruit then they weren’t saved. Those in Christ bear fruit.

That’s NOT what Jesus said. I already showed you that.

Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Evidently not every branch who is in Christ bears fruit. Every branch that REMAINS in Christ bears much fruit.

“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who ABIDES in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:5‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Hammster

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So your saying this person was never in Christ to begin with? How can they remain in Christ if they were never in Christ to begin with?
Look at it this way. I will feed and clothe anyone in my house who is a Hamm. If you’re not a Hamm, you must leave.

Will I feed and clothe you? Is there anything you can do to change that? Sitting in my yard and pretending won’t help.
 
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