IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

Dorothy Mae · Mar 12, 2020

Kermos said:
I am a Christian because I follow Christ. I believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent!

You believe MORE than that looking at your long posts.

Joshua issues a series of commands:
- "Now therefore fear the LORD"
- "and serve him in sincerity and in truth"
- "and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt"
- "and serve ye the LORD"
(Joshua 24:14)

There is no mention of "choice" nor "free will" towards God in Joshua 24:14; furthermore, a command does not convey ability.

Was He talking to God who needs to manipulate men to do this?

Do you see that you cannot admit that if God says “choose” to a man, it assumes that this man CAN choose?

For you, “choose” doesn’t mean make a choice. I have no idea what you think it means instead.

Next, Joshua expresses a conditional logic statement in Joshua 24:15, and a conditional logic statement is normally an IF/THEN construct.

IF condition THEN predicate

Stated in a more focused fashion.

IF you_do_this THEN that_will_happen

Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).

A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.

Correct. It assumes it is already there.

Now, the conditional logic statement Joshua expressed was "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD" which contains no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God (Joshua 24:15). The conditional logic statement Joshua expressed states the condition/nature of the person.

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Cause God and man know already we have free choice in the matter.

In the predicate Joshua provides only false gods for those people whose nature is against the LORD, for Joshua said "choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell" (Joshua 24:15).

Finaly, Joshua states "but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD", and there is no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God (Joshua 24:15).

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They all know it’s in man.
God never told them to breathe cause they have no choice. He did tell them other matters where the choice is free.

There is no choice towards God mentioned.

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“Choose” makes no sense and is actually cruel if a man cannot.

As for the next link I provided, here you go Dorothy Mae.

"It is disagreeable in my sight to believe the LORD Who declares God chooses man not man chooses God unto salvation and sanctification" (John 15:16-19, "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD" [Joshua 24:15]) says the self-willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10), so that leaves only false gods for the choosing by the self willed person (John 15:16-19, "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living" [Joshua 24:15]), Lord Jesus declares that His House serves the LORD (Matthew 21:13 and John 10:27-30, "as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" [Joshua 24:15]). Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19); therefore, all the "choosing" is God's alone with respect to the saving grace upon man!

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What Bible are you reading? The Calvinist one?

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Wrong on both counts, Dorothy Mae, plus another count of error against you is that Judas left the supper room as recorded in John 13:30 (so you do not take the Bible as a whole as you previously claimed).

Wrong. Judas was there when Jesus said one of you will betray me.

Cornelius is of crucial import to this topic for among the places that we find fulfillment of the Word of God's promise of the Holy Spirit is when Gentiles at Cornelius' place were filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:44).

At a time after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter recounted to the apostles and brethren about the Gentiles Cornelius with his relatives and his close friends, and the account Peter shared of the Gentiles receiving the Holy Spirit with being saved illuminated that not just Jews would be saved but also Gentiles would be saved (Acts 11:1-18).

At that time, Peter said to the apostles and brethren "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit'" (Acts 11:16).

Prior to the time of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Lord Jesus said "John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5) to the apostles whom Jesus gathered togather (Acts 1:4) which included Peter, and Jesus says "you" right here - with the apostles present right there, Jesus says "you".

Later after the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), Peter remembered Lord Jesus saying "you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit" and there is the word "you" (Acts 11:16) which Peter tied to the Gentiles Cornelius with all his household (Acts 11:14); furthermore, Peter tied when Lord Jesus says "you" to all believers in all time (Acts 11:17)!

Since the Apostle Peter includes all believers in all time when Lord Jesus says "you" as recorded in Scripture, then this results in the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding all believers in all time.

That’s some fancy footwork. But it won’t work. Neither Paul nor Peter not John told them that they were chosen for Heaven and had no choice in the matter. Takes editing the Bible to get that.

A fundamental Christian teaching must explicitly be stated which is man's default nature being carnal and unrighteous.

Our merciful and loving God is Benefactor, and we believers are beneficiaries

God is mercifully loving to save any of the rebellious persons, we beneficiaries

FOR the first nature of all men is enmity against God

MOREOVER, that first nature, the default nature, the enemy against God nature is sometimes referred to as the sin nature

AND that is just like the first man, Adam, from the earth, earthy (1 Corinthians 15:47)

FOR through Adam sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men (Romans 5:12)

AND respecting the first nature all people have no choice in the matter, all people enter life with the sin nature (Colossians 1:13-14, Colossians 1:21-22)

YET people in the first nature are incapable of pleasing God (Romans 8:8)

AND people of the sin nature cannot understand spiritual things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14)

SO God's regeneration of men in the renewing by the Holy Spirit results in a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17, Titus 3:5)

AND by the act of God, the old things passed away while the new creature has come (2 Corinthians 5:17)

AND the "old things", the first and default nature, is carnal/darkness/wicked/evil/dead/natural - in/by/of/for man

BUT the "new things", the God imparted nature, is Spirit/Light/righteous/good/life/eternal - in/by/of/for Christ

SO the "new creature" is made holy by the Holy God named Jesus Christ

AND the "new creature" is in Christ, and only the "new creature", we born again by God, are in Christ

AND in Christ all will be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22)

God's merciful and loving actions as Benefactor are beautiful

FOR the Son of God established the Testament (Hebrews 9:16, Luke 22:20)

THUS Jesus the Lord proved His position of Benefactor in the Testament (John 12:31-33)

Our gracious Benefactor produces divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says

"you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God

Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says

"This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is by/of/through God

Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says

"he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God" (John 3:21)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is by/of/through God

Our gracious Benefactor produces beneficiaries' birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:5-8)

SO, clearly, Jesus' words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is by/of/through God

We beneficiaries are blessed receivers from the amazingly awesome Benefactor

THE BENEFACTOR ESTABLISHES A DEEPLY LOVING RELATIONSHIP WITH THE BENEFICIARY. PRAISE BE TO THE LIVING GOD!

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus

BECAUSE He said "You did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19)

AND Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus

AND Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)

AND All these words of Jesus are at the same supper

SO all glory is God's

AND with man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)

AND all glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

I didn't say it did, Dorothy Mae. I do say "daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they blaspheme Glory" with the Apostle Peter for such people claim to choose Jesus in daring oppostion to the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

The LORD says "I will not give My glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8).

The LORD commands "you shall not steal" (Exodus 20:15).

You are guilty of trying to steal God's glory.

The LORD commands "You shall have no other gods before Me"

You are guilty of putting your unscriptural choice before God.

Jesus is the King of Glory, and you daring self will you claim to choose Jesus, you claim to do the very opposite of that which King Jesus says you cannot do and the Apostle Peter says the "you" spoken ot the disciples applies to all believers in all time.

And, you are excluded from the "you" in John 15:15 since you claim to be excluded from the "you" in John 15:16.

I made no false accusation. I cite the Word of God.

I say a person is a friend of Jesus by the Power of God, such as "I have called you friends" (John 15:15). You say you choose to be Jesus friend despite the next thing Jesus says after talking about "friends" is "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16). According to you by extension neither "you" applies to you, so you are no friend of Jesus.

Dorothy Mae, you are a self willed person (2 Peter 2:9-10) who daringly claims to choose Jesus the King of Glory in spite of His word "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not coose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

I have made no wrong accusation.

You arrogantly assert God's unshared exclusive good glory in man's salvation (John 15:16, Isaiah 42:8) as "montrous evil" (your words about God); moreover, you pridefully claim to choose Jesus in direct opposition to His words of "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16). Isaiah wrote woe to you who "call evil good, and good evil" (Isaiah 5:20).

I know you have a deep emotional stake in God must have chosen you and you cannot choose anything yourself on this. I know why too.

I’ve never met a “calvinist theology embracing” believer (like you) who didn’t love their salvation and didn’t fight to the tooth to defend its eternal security regardless of how they behave. The fruit is evident in how they treat those who disagree with them. It is a very consistent test.

Kermos · Mar 12, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
You believe MORE than that looking at your long posts.
Was He talking to God who needs to manipulate men to do this?

Do you see that you cannot admit that if God says âchooseâ to a man, it assumes that this man CAN choose?

For you, âchooseâ doesnât mean make a choice. I have no idea what you think it means instead.

God did not say "choose" to a man in Joshua 24:15. Joshua said "choose" to a man. Joshua does NOT state to choose the Most High God.

Are you blind, Dorothy Mae? I wrote that only false gods were available for the people to choose.

Wrong. Judas was there when Jesus said one of you will betray me.

That does not make me wrong, Dorothy Mae. You really do not know the Word of God.

Here is the sequence from the Apostle John:

Lord Jesus said "Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me." (John 13:21)

And, of Judas Iscariot, the Apostle John records "So after receiving the morsel he went out immediately; and it was night" (John 13:30).

The Word of God says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

The sequence is clear, Judas was GONE when Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so there were 11 apostles in the room per scripture but not 12 apostles per Dorothy Mae.

Thatâs some fancy footwork. But it wonât work. Neither Paul nor Peter not John told them that they were chosen for Heaven and had no choice in the matter. Takes editing the Bible to get that.

No editting of the Bible is necessary.

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you argue from silence by writing "Neither Paul nor Peter not John told them that they were chosen for Heaven and had no choice in the matter", but it's not really silence because th Apostles do cover that we sheep of His are chosen for heaven.

The Apostle Peter wrote "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to [obtain] an inheritance [which is] imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you" (1 Peter 1-4).

The Apostle Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) without limitation therefore this Word of God applies to salvation and sanctification of all believers in all time.

Furthermore, the Apostle Peter includes all believers in all time when Lord Jesus says "you" as recorded in Scripture (Acts 11:14-17, Acts 1:4-5), se then this results in the "you" in the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding all believers in all time (post #558 in this thread)

I know you have a deep emotional stake in God must have chosen you and you cannot choose anything yourself on this. I know why too.

You make another false claim, Dorothy Mae, with your writing. You cannot know for the Apostle Paul writes "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

I believe Jesus; therefore, I write and speak the Word of God.

You do not believer Jesus Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16); therefore, in your natural state you are under the wrath of God (2 Peter 2:9-10).

Iâve never met a âcalvinist theology embracingâ believer (like you) who didnât love their salvation and didnât fight to the tooth to defend its eternal security regardless of how they behave. The fruit is evident in how they treat those who disagree with them. It is a very consistent test.

The LORD says "I will not give My glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8).

The LORD commands "you shall not steal" (Exodus 20:15).

You are guilty of trying to steal God's glory.

The LORD commands "You shall have no other gods before Me"

You are guilty of putting your god of yourself - your claimed choice of God - in defiance of the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Jesus is the King of Glory, and you daringly claim to choose Jesus, you claim to do the very opposite of that which King Jesus says you cannot do and the Apostle Peter says the "you" spoken ot the disciples applies to all believers in all time.

In your pride, you woefully call evil good and good evil (Isaiah 5:20). because of your prideful claim of your work of a choice toward God which wickedly opposes the Word of God "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you woefully call evil good and good evil (Isaiah 5:20). because it is humble to say I did nothing and God did it all to save a wretch like me.

Only Jesus is Savior. Choice by man toward God for salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26).

May Lord Jesus open your eyes to His Glorious Truth!

Kermos · Mar 12, 2020

Dorothy Mae said:
You do a good imitation.
Thatâs not so well imitated.
Jesus said to them that one would betray him. That includes you too? He also said to the 12 that one of them is a devil. That include the believers today??
[q_disable_quote_uoteWwhich is clearly about salvation [/q_disable_quote_uote] Not at all. Zehrt were chosen to be his a p o s t l e s.
To be disciples/apostles, not for salvation. He didnât say that to the 70 followers. He didnât say that to everyone.
Met hundreds of 1000s of Christians in my life and not one ever boasted in glaring self will that they saved themselves by choice. I know this straw man argument well. Woa! Sounds like you want those who disagree with your theology to burn. We know where this oneâs from.Wheres the Bible quote on that? Sounds like a lobotomy.

The truth is we are required of our own free will to SURRENDER.

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you impose your imagination on Scripture, and you try to argue from silence which is truly not even silence.

You keep saying that John 15:16 only applies ot the 12 apostles, but Judas left the supper room as recorded in John 13:30 (so you do not take the Bible as a whole as you previously claimed). Jesus did not say "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to Judas for Judas was GONE; therefore, there were 11 apostles in the room at the time Jesus said these things.

By the way, Matthias and Joseph were present when Jesus said "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) because the disciples specifically identified Matthias and Joseph as two men who "accompanied us all the time" - see that it is all the time they were with Jesus as described here:

"'Therefore it is necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us - beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us - one of these [must] become a witness with us of His resurrection.' So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias." (Acts 1:21-23)

In the room occupied by Jesus' disciples who put forward Matthias and Joseph were Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James (Acts 1:13).

Joanna, Susanna, Salome, Mary, and Cleopas and his traveling companion to Emmaus - every one of these individuals are mentioned in close temporal proximity to the time of supper in John chapters 13-17. These names of disciples are close enough in time to potentially be included as the "disciples" mentioned by John in EXHIBIT 1 and EXHIBIT 5.

Thus, Matthias and Joseph are at least two more people beyond the twelve who are specifically identified at the supper covered in John chapters 13-17.

You seem to say that you have met 1,000's of people that claim to choose Jesus, so they boast in the work of their supposed choice toward God.

The Master says "the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it" (Matthew 7:13).

The King of Glory says "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven [will enter]. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'" (Matthew 7:21-23)

And the Word of God says "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell - and great was its fall" (Matthew 7:26-27).

You, Dorothy Mae, do not act on the Word of God Who says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you deny the the Word of God that was posted.

May Lord Jesus open your eyes to His Glorious Truth that God alone saves man!

Kermos · Mar 12, 2020

Francis Drake said:
OK, if you're not a Calvinist, why do you constantly quote his false doctrines?
And why have you avoided the Jeroboam question?I'm not going to argue whether you are a Christian or not, but the doctrine you keep pushing is from a different Christ
And why don't you answer my Jeroboam question?
Your foolish interpretation of that verse is destroyed by countless other scriptures, such as the choice God gave Jeroboam, which you neatly sidestep.
Jesus first started calling his disciples when he met them at John's baptism, which was a baptism of repentance. Therefore the disciples were already born again believers when he first met them.
His calling was to follow him as disciples, not salvation.

Yet again you tell me that I deserve damnation for blasphemy.
2Peter2v9then the Lord knows to deliver the devout out of temptation and to keep the unrighteous being punished unto the day of judgment, 10and especially those walking after the flesh in the passion of defilement and despising authority. Bold, self-willed, they do not tremble blaspheming glorious ones,
The problem for you is that I am not blaspheming glory. I do however intentionally "blaspheme" your godless man made doctrines.

Oh dear oh dear, that's a truly useless verse to prove your point. Did you read the context before posting it?
Here's the start of the story,
Matt19v16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, âTeacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?â
Obviously the man thought he could earn his way by good deeds into eternal life. Never for one moment have I suggested that or defended that idea.

Wow, twice in the same post you list me for damnation. I'm scoring big today.

Of course, if I believed your doctrines of demons, I could just say its all God's fault that I don't believe you.

BTW, any chance you'll actually answer the points about Jeroboam's freewill choices?

First, we are in New Covenant time, so the Old Testament must be handled with care for it is written "When He said, "A new [covenant]," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear" (Hebrews 8:13).

Essentially, this means that when Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) referring to salvation and He is intesifying when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which contains no limits, therefore He states the quaility of God of choosing man unto salvation with no choosing by man.

Now, to Jeroboam. I'm going to include the verses you posted again here:

30 Then Ahijah took hold of the new cloak which was on him and tore it into twelve pieces.
31 He said to Jeroboam, "Take for yourself ten pieces; for thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and give you ten tribes
32 (but he will have one tribe, for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen from all the tribes of Israel),
33 because they have forsaken Me, and have worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the sons of Ammon; and they have not walked in My ways, doing what is right in My sight and [observing] My statutes and My ordinances, as his father David [did]
.
(1 Kings 11:30-33)

37 'I will take you, and you shall reign over whatever you desire, and you shall be king over Israel.
38 'Then it will be, that if you listen to all that I command you and walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight by observing My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then I will be with you and build you an enduring house as I built for David, and I will give Israel to you.
(1 Kings 11:37-38)

26 Jeroboam said in his heart, "Now the kingdom will return to the house of David.
27 "If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will return to their lord, [even] to Rehoboam king of Judah; and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah."
28 So the king consulted, and made two golden calves, and he said to them, "It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem; behold your gods, O Israel, that brought you up from the land of Egypt."
29 He set one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan.
30 Now this thing became a sin, for the people went [to worship] before the one as far as Dan.
31 And he made houses on high places, and made priests from among all the people who were not of the sons of Levi.
(2 Kings 12:26-31)

Francis Drake, neither "choose" nor it's conjugates occur in any of these passages.

You mentioned "Jeroboam obviously had a free hand here" regarding 1 Kings 11:37, "you shall reign over whatever you desire", yet desire means "want" which describes a condition of being - not even choice - it's a direction of wanting something, but you have added "free hand".

You wrote "Jeroboam chooses to serve idols instead of Jehovah." respecting 2 Kings 12:28-31. Francis Drake, by your writings, you have changed the verses into "So the king consulted, and chose to make two golden calves, and in freewill he said to them, "It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem; behold your gods, O Israel, that brought you up from the land of Egypt." He chose to set one in Bethel, and the other he chose to put in Dan. Now this thing became a sin, for the people went [to worship] before the one as far as Dan. And in freewill he chose to make houses on high places, and chose to make priests from among all the people who were not of the sons of Levi." (per Francis Drake's writing in post #555).

That's a whole lot of changes to scripture, Francis Drake. It looks a lot like your additions to Revelation 3:20 (post in this thread)

You input "Jeroboam had freewill choices to make, to serve God or not serve God, choices which would completely alter God's response to him. He could become God's friend like David or his enemy." as you moved into 1 Kings 11:38. Francis Drake, by your writings, you have changed the verse into "Then it will be, that if you choose to listen to all that I ask you and freewill walk in My ways, and choose by your freewill what is right in My sight by opening your own eyes to My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David chose to do, then I will be with you and build you an enduring house as I built for David, and I will give Israel to you" (per Francis Drake's writing in post #555).

In your mind, Francis Drake, it appears that you must chnage 1 Kings 11:38 in order for you to attempt to nullify the words of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

You insert the conveyance of ability to choose into IF/THEN conditional statements, but no such conveyance is delivered in the passages you cited.

According to your words "Throughout this story, Jeroboam has freewill to chose one way or another. If that were not true, the story becomes the senseless exercise of a cruel God." The account of Jeroboam serves as instruction to the Assembly of God in New Testament time, so the account for thus the apostle wrote ""For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope" (Romans 15:4).

God is good to save any, Francis Drake.

You wrote "I could just say its all God's fault that I don't believe you", yet I cite the unadulterated Word of God again and again.

In Matthew 19:16 does not change Matthew 19:26 where Jesus says "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" in response to the disciples inquiry of "Then who can be saved?" (Matthew 19:25).

Jesus answered His disciples at that time! His disciples, Francis Drake. Thus this applies ot all His disciples in all time. On top of this, Jesus says "With people this is impossible" thus even the work of choice toward Jesus by man is excluded by the Word of God; moreover, a person's belief/faith toward God is impossible for man to create or manipulate, yet with God all things are possible which includes the work of God being that we disciples of Jesus believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you look to yourself for your choice toward God that God says you cannot make such a choice which means you are daringly looking away from God for salvation. You steal and commit adultery and swear falsely about your false god and walk after your false god then you claim to come and stand before the LORD in His house, which is called by His Name, and say, 'We are delivered!', that you do all these abominations (Jeremiah 7:9-10).

May the Holy One enliven you to the resurrection of life!

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

Francis Drake · Mar 12, 2020

Kermos said:
The sequence is clear, Judas was GONE when Jesus, Lord and God (John 20:28), says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), so there were 11 apostles in the room per scripture but not 12 apostles per Dorothy Mae.

Again you spout off your John15 deception that Jesus was choosing who would get salvation, when it says no such thing.
That Jesus was absolutely not choosing them for salvation is proven when he said the same words earlier on, which on that occasion was specifically addressed to all Twelve including Judas!

Jn6v70Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil!” 71Now He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot; for he, one of the Twelve, was about to betray Him.
ie. So Jesus's calling applied to all twelve, one being a traitor. Therefore your John15 quote cannot refer to them being called to salvation.
Try wriggling out of that one.

Francis Drake · Mar 12, 2020

Kermos said:
In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you impose your imagination on Scripture, and you try to argue from silence which is truly not even silence.

@Kermos, do you not realise how ungodly it is to constantly refer your brothers and sisters for judgement and punishment.
Your non stop hatred and vitriol against those who have different views of scripture is a very poor manifestation of the call to "love one another".
The serious question is, do you consider @Dorothy Mae and me as unbelievers, unregenerate? Does that explain your personal attacks?
Please answer these points.

You keep saying that John 15:16 only applies ot the 12 apostles, but Judas left the supper room as recorded in John 13:30 (so you do not take the Bible as a whole as you previously claimed). Jesus did not say "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to Judas for Judas was GONE; therefore, there were 11 apostles in the room at the time Jesus said these things.

Already debunked by what Jesus said in John6v70 when he said exactly the same to "The Twelve".

Francis Drake · Mar 12, 2020

Kermos said:
First, we are in New Covenant time, so the Old Testament must be handled with care for it is written "When He said, "A new [covenant]," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear" (Hebrews 8:13).

"I am the Lord, I change not."
The Lord never changes and the means of salvation has never changed since Adam.
It is, was and will always be by the blood of the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.

Essentially, this means that when Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) referring to salvation and He is intesifying when He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which contains no limits, therefore He states the quaility of God of choosing man unto salvation with no choosing by man.

This nonsense is already debunked by what Jesus said in John6v70 when he said exactly the same to "The Twelve".

Now, to Jeroboam. I'm going to include the verses you posted again here:

30 Then Ahijah took hold of the new cloak which was on him and tore it into twelve pieces.
31 He said to Jeroboam, "Take for yourself ten pieces; for thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and give you ten tribes
32 (but he will have one tribe, for the sake of My servant David and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen from all the tribes of Israel),
33 because they have forsaken Me, and have worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of Moab, and Milcom the god of the sons of Ammon; and they have not walked in My ways, doing what is right in My sight and [observing] My statutes and My ordinances, as his father David [did]
.
(1 Kings 11:30-33)

37 'I will take you, and you shall reign over whatever you desire, and you shall be king over Israel.
38 'Then it will be, that if you listen to all that I command you and walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight by observing My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then I will be with you and build you an enduring house as I built for David, and I will give Israel to you.
(1 Kings 11:37-38)

26 Jeroboam said in his heart, "Now the kingdom will return to the house of David.
27 "If this people go up to offer sacrifices in the house of the LORD at Jerusalem, then the heart of this people will return to their lord, [even] to Rehoboam king of Judah; and they will kill me and return to Rehoboam king of Judah."
28 So the king consulted, and made two golden calves, and he said to them, "It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem; behold your gods, O Israel, that brought you up from the land of Egypt."
29 He set one in Bethel, and the other he put in Dan.
30 Now this thing became a sin, for the people went [to worship] before the one as far as Dan.
31 And he made houses on high places, and made priests from among all the people who were not of the sons of Levi.
(2 Kings 12:26-31)

Francis Drake, neither "choose" nor it's conjugates occur in any of these passages.

You are unbelievable. There are many ways in all languages to present a choice to people without adding the words "choose" to a statement. The fact that those words are missing is utterly irrelevant.
If someone asks your opinion on something, "choice" is obviously implied in the question even though the words aren't there. You know all this, but nothing ever stops you perverting the plain meanings of scripture does it?

You mentioned "Jeroboam obviously had a free hand here" regarding 1 Kings 11:37, "you shall reign over whatever you desire", yet desire means "want" which describes a condition of being - not even choice - it's a direction of wanting something, but you have added "free hand".

So what, even if you write it as, "whatever your heart wants", it still gives Jeroboam freedom of choice, even if the word "choice" isn't there.
To pretend otherwise shows a complete lack of linguistic recognition.

You wrote "Jeroboam chooses to serve idols instead of Jehovah." respecting 2 Kings 12:28-31. Francis Drake, by your writings, you have changed the verses into "So the king consulted, and chose to make two golden calves, and in freewill he said to them, "It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem; behold your gods, O Israel, that brought you up from the land of Egypt." He chose to set one in Bethel, and the other he chose to put in Dan. Now this thing became a sin, for the people went [to worship] before the one as far as Dan. And in freewill he chose to make houses on high places, and chose to make priests from among all the people who were not of the sons of Levi." (per Francis Drake's writing in post #555).

Your duplicity is addling your brain @Kermos. That's nothing like what I wrote and you know it. This is pasted from my post No555
Despite the prophetic words, part of which were already fulfilled when he became king, Jeroboam chooses to serve idols instead of Jehovah. He copied the sins which had already brought God's judgement on the house of Judah. That's what I wrote, not the nonsense above.

That's a whole lot of changes to scripture, Francis Drake. It looks a lot like your additions to Revelation 3:20 (post in this thread)

Yet again, you quote Revelation appointing me for its plagues. Unfortunately, you gave the wrong verses this time. You used Rev22v18 last time, but here's Rev3v20.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Just to let you know, when I was an ignorant child I heard when the Lord knocking on my door, and chose to open it. We have been dining together ever since.

So bad luck @Kermos, you'll have to check your verses more accurately if you want to bring curses down on people.

You input "Jeroboam had freewill choices to make, to serve God or not serve God, choices which would completely alter God's response to him. He could become God's friend like David or his enemy." as you moved into 1 Kings 11:38. Francis Drake, by your writings, you have changed the verse into "Then it will be, that if you choose to listen to all that I ask you and freewill walk in My ways, and choose by your freewill what is right in My sight by opening your own eyes to My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David chose to do, then I will be with you and build you an enduring house as I built for David, and I will give Israel to you" (per Francis Drake's writing in post #555).

Not a bad effort for an amateur, @Kermos, that's about what it says.

In your mind, Francis Drake, it appears that you must chnage 1 Kings 11:38 in order for you to attempt to nullify the words of Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Except that your fool interpretation of John15v16 has already been debunked by Jesus in John6v70. Jesus was obviously choosing men for discipleship, not for salvation.
70Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil!” 71Now He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot; for he, one of the Twelve, was about to betray Him.

You insert the conveyance of ability to choose into IF/THEN conditional statements, but no such conveyance is delivered in the passages you cited.

That's because any normal reader can see it is an IF/THEN statement, unless their eyes are blinded by Calvinism heresy.

1Kings11v38Then it shall be, if you heed all that I command you, walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then I will be with you and build for you an enduring house, as I built for David, and will give Israel to you.
It could not be simpler, why is it so difficult for you?

God is good to save any, Francis Drake.

But your god doesn't "save" anyone does he. If your god creates people pre programmed to be "saved" then they were never in danger of damnation, where they, and they are not being saved from anything at all.
"Salvation" under Calvinism is a complete a charade!
Your God is sick, randomly creating people specifically to cast into eternal damnation. That is nothing but evil.

Francis Drake · Mar 12, 2020

According to Calvinism, and 'Kermos, God creates people with no freewill choice to accept or reject Salvation. The choice is entirely God's decision not theirs.

Therefore some people are created totally predestined to accept Christ and eternal life, with no choice in the matter.

If that is true, then such people are never in the slightest danger of eternal damnation are they? How could they be if they are predestined for eternal life with no choice in the matter.
That being the case, they are not being given "salvation" from anything at all!

Before your life can be saved, your life needs to be at risk. In Calvinism there is no risk. God made the decision in eternity past.

Under Calvinism, "Salvation is therefore a complete fraud, just a charade to fool people who can't add two and two together.

Kermos · Mar 12, 2020

Francis Drake said:
Again you spout off your John15 deception that Jesus was choosing who would get salvation, when it says no such thing.
That Jesus was absolutely not choosing them for salvation is proven when he said the same words earlier on, which on that occasion was specifically addressed to all Twelve including Judas!

Jn6v70Jesus answered them, âDid I not choose you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil!â 71Now He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot; for he, one of the Twelve, was about to betray Him.
ie. So Jesus's calling applied to all twelve, one being a traitor. Therefore your John15 quote cannot refer to them being called to salvation.
Try wriggling out of that one.

Francis Drake said:
@Kermos, do you not realise how ungodly it is to constantly refer your brothers and sisters for judgement and punishment.
Your non stop hatred and vitriol against those who have different views of scripture is a very poor manifestation of the call to "love one another".
The serious question is, do you consider @Dorothy Mae and me as unbelievers, unregenerate? Does that explain your personal attacks?
Please answer these points.

Already debunked by what Jesus said in John6v70 when he said exactly the same to "The Twelve".

You are absolutely wrong because Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which is about salvation for Jesus removes His sheep from the world and places His sheep into the Kingdom of God, and this is the same passage as "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which is about salvation and sanctification since right previous Jesus says "I have called you friends" (John 15:15) as well as right after "appointed you that you would go and bear fruit" (John 15:16).

Lord Jesus is talking about salvation and sanctification again and again in John 15, and the Apostle Peter includes all believers in all time when Lord Jesus says "you" as recorded in Scripture (Acts 11:14-17, Acts 1:4-5), se then this results in the "you" in the Word of God, Lord Jesus "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) binding all believers in all time (post in this thread)

In John 6:70-71, Jesus did not say "I chose you out of the world" like He did in John 15:19, so Judas was not there when Jesus was talking about choosing unto salvation with the 11 apostles present with Jesus' words recorded in John 15.

By the way, you wrote "calling" but Jesus said "choose". Get it straight, Francis Drake, that this is not just a "call" per Jesus but this is a "choose" per Jesus. Clearly Jesus chose Judas while also Jesus says "one of you is a devil" referring to Judas who was about to betray Jesus (John 6:71).

You try to to change the Apostle John's rendition of Jesus' words in John 15:16 to read as "I chose you as apostles" (or some such) thus limiting the meaning, but that is not what Jesus says because the Apostle John truly records the words of Jesus as "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" followed by the conjunction "and".

Wow, you wickedly try to misuse scripture AGAIN just like you did with Jeroboam account in 1 Kings 11:38 (post in this thread) and a lot like your additions to Revelation 3:20 (post in this thread).

I love you, Francis Drake and @Dorothy Mae, and I warn you of your current state of defiance in self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) against the Word of God who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

We are discussing the inherent attribute of God. God says God controls man's salvation. Both of you keep trying to steal that which God reserves to God alone.

May God mercifully open your eyes to the Gospel of Christ!

Kermos · Mar 12, 2020

Who will teach the One who knows all things (Isaiah 40:13-17, Romans 11:34-36)? NO MAN (John 4:25, John 16:30, John 21:17)! Yet, self-willed people (2 Peter 2:9-10) think they can teach God about who will be saved - they think they can surprise God (the tunnel looking down time to see who will choose God is a figment of the daring people's imagination - it's unscriptural - for God says "you did not choose Me" [John 15:16]). God prior destines/designates who will be saved (predestined) for God knows intimately beforehand the ones to be saved (foreknows) (Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11, Romans 11:2, 1 Peter 1:1-5). Lord Jesus explaines "the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34), but to the self willed people who daringly contradict the Word of God "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS" (Matthew 7:23).

Please read this carefully @Francis Drake and @Dorothy Mae

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

Kermos · Mar 12, 2020

Francis Drake said:
According to Calvinism, and 'Kermos, God creates people with no freewill choice to accept or reject Salvation. The choice is entirely God's decision not theirs.

Therefore some people are created totally predestined to accept Christ and eternal life, with no choice in the matter.

If that is true, then such people are never in the slightest danger of eternal damnation are they? How could they be if they are predestined for eternal life with no choice in the matter.
That being the case, they are not being given "salvation" from anything at all!

Before your life can be saved, your life needs to be at risk. In Calvinism there is no risk. God made the decision in eternity past.

Under Calvinism, "Salvation is therefore a complete fraud, just a charade to fool people who can't add two and two together.

You still have the Word of God wrong, Francis Drake.

You wrote "some people are created totally predestined to accept Christ and eternal life" - your word "accept" is a choice, and a choice is s work of man in your context, and man is not saved by works rather we are saved by God's grace by the gift of God which is faith/belief (Ephesians 2:8-10).

The Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Your words defy the words of Jesus, Francis Drake.

By the way, the Apostle Paul wrote "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET." (Romans 7:7).

The LORD says "I will not give My glory to another" (Isaiah 42:8).

The LORD commands "you shall not steal" (Exodus 20:15).

You are guilty of trying to steal God's glory.

The LORD commands "You shall have no other gods before Me"

You are guilty of putting your god of yourself - your claimed choice of God - in defiance of the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

Jesus is the King of Glory, and you daringly claim to choose Jesus, you claim to do the very opposite of that which King Jesus says you cannot do and the Apostle Peter says the "you" spoken ot the disciples applies to all believers in all time.

In your pride, you woefully call evil good and good evil (Isaiah 5:20). because of your prideful claim of your work of a choice toward God which wickedly opposes the Word of God "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) and "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

In your self will (2 Peter 2:9-10), you woefully call evil good and good evil (Isaiah 5:20). because it is humble to say I did nothing and God did it all to save a wretch like me.

Only Jesus is Savior. Choice by man toward God for salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26).

May Lord Jesus open your eyes to His Glorious Truth!

Kermos · Mar 12, 2020

In your self wllled mind you imagine you debunked the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), but in reality you fail in your fight against the Word of God. You cannot win, Francis Drake, not on your own - and you claim to win on your own by your work of a choice yet man is not saved by works rather we sheep of Jesus are saved by God's grace by the gift of God which is faith/belief (Ephesians 2:8-10).

There you go again, trying to wantonly add ability to choose toward Jesus by your self willed rambling with you persisting in your practice of lawlessness to change the scripture AGAIN.

You wickedly twist scripture again and again as in your additions to Revelation 3:20 (post in this thread) and you alterations of the Jeroboam account in 1 Kings 11:38 (post in this thread) and your additions and subtractions to the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) (post in this thread).

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

Francis Drake said:
"I am the Lord, I change not."
The Lord never changes and the means of salvation has never changed since Adam.
It is, was and will always be by the blood of the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.

This nonsense is already debunked by what Jesus said in John6v70 when he said exactly the same to "The Twelve".

You are unbelievable. There are many ways in all languages to present a choice to people without adding the words "choose" to a statement. The fact that those words are missing is utterly irrelevant.
If someone asks your opinion on something, "choice" is obviously implied in the question even though the words aren't there. You know all this, but nothing ever stops you perverting the plain meanings of scripture does it?

So what, even if you write it as, "whatever your heart wants", it still gives Jeroboam freedom of choice, even if the word "choice" isn't there.
To pretend otherwise shows a complete lack of linguistic recognition.

Your duplicity is addling your brain @Kermos. That's nothing like what I wrote and you know it. This is pasted from my post No555
Despite the prophetic words, part of which were already fulfilled when he became king, Jeroboam chooses to serve idols instead of Jehovah. He copied the sins which had already brought God's judgement on the house of Judah. That's what I wrote, not the nonsense above.

Yet again, you quote Revelation appointing me for its plagues. Unfortunately, you gave the wrong verses this time. You used Rev22v18 last time, but here's Rev3v20.
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.
Just to let you know, when I was an ignorant child I heard when the Lord knocking on my door, and chose to open it. We have been dining together ever since.

So bad luck @Kermos, you'll have to check your verses more accurately if you want to bring curses down on people.

Not a bad effort for an amateur, @Kermos, that's about what it says.

Except that your fool interpretation of John15v16 has already been debunked by Jesus in John6v70. Jesus was obviously choosing men for discipleship, not for salvation.
70Jesus answered them, âDid I not choose you, the Twelve? And one of you is a devil!â 71Now He was speaking of Judas son of Simon Iscariot; for he, one of the Twelve, was about to betray Him.

That's because any normal reader can see it is an IF/THEN statement, unless their eyes are blinded by Calvinism heresy.
1Kings11v38Then it shall be, if you heed all that I command you, walk in My ways, and do what is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as My servant David did, then I will be with you and build for you an enduring house, as I built for David, and will give Israel to you.
It could not be simpler, why is it so difficult for you?

But your god doesn't "save" anyone does he. If your god creates people pre programmed to be "saved" then they were never in danger of damnation, where they, and they are not being saved from anything at all.
"Salvation" under Calvinism is a complete a charade!
Your God is sick, randomly creating people specifically to cast into eternal damnation. That is nothing but evil.

Francis Drake · Mar 12, 2020

Kermos said:
You are absolutely wrong because Lord Jesus says "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19) which is about salvation for Jesus removes His sheep from the world and places His sheep into the Kingdom of God, and this is the same passage as "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) which is about salvation and sanctification since right previous Jesus says "I have called you friends" (John 15:15) as well as right after "appointed you that you would go and bear fruit" (John 15:16).

This has already been debunked many times over from John6 and elsewhere.

Lord Jesus is talking about salvation and sanctification again and again in John 15,

Hilarious. Whenever I have used words that don't actually appear in a scripture like choice or choose, even when the context justifies it, you condemn it completely, ranting on and on and on and on about it, post after post after post.
Now you've just dug a big hole for yourself because neither Salvation, Saved or sanctification appear anywhere in the whole of John15.
So using your own methodology, John 15 is nothing to do with salvation and you are just adding to scripture.
Thanks for providing the bullets to shoot you down @Kermos. It was entertaining.

In John 6:70-71, Jesus did not say "I chose you out of the world" like He did in John 15:19, so Judas was not there when Jesus was talking about choosing unto salvation with the 11 apostles present with Jesus' words recorded in John 15.

Debunked

Wow, you wickedly try to misuse scripture AGAIN just like you did with Jeroboam account in 1 Kings 11:38 (post in this thread) and a lot like your additions to Revelation 3:20 (post in this thread).

Now I'm wicked.
What happened to brotherly love? Oh I forgot, Calvinists always murdered people they disagree with.

I love you, Francis Drake and @Dorothy Mae,

I don't think you know the meaning of that word @Kermos. You've done nothing but spout vile threats and curses throughout this thread.

and I warn you of your current state of defiance in self will (2 Peter 2:9-10) against the Word of God who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).

I'm a Calvinist, God made me do it! Lol

We are discussing the inherent attribute of God. God says God controls man's salvation. Both of you keep trying to steal that which God reserves to God alone.

May God mercifully open your eyes to the Gospel of Christ!

Such rank hypocrisy.

Francis Drake · Mar 12, 2020

Kermos said:
Who will teach the One who knows all things (Isaiah 40:13-17, Romans 11:34-36)? NO MAN (John 4:25, John 16:30, John 21:17)! Yet, self-willed people (2 Peter 2:9-10) think they can teach God about who will be saved - they think they can surprise God (the tunnel looking down time to see who will choose God is a figment of the daring people's imagination - it's unscriptural - for God says "you did not choose Me" [John 15:16]). God prior destines/designates who will be saved (predestined) for God knows intimately beforehand the ones to be saved (foreknows) (Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11, Romans 11:2, 1 Peter 1:1-5). Lord Jesus explaines "the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34), but to the self willed people who daringly contradict the Word of God "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS" (Matthew 7:23).

Please read this carefully @Francis Drake and @Dorothy Mae

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8)!

If your god creates people specifically preprogrammed for eternal life with zero choice, then they were never ever in danger of eternal damnation.

Therefore your concept of "salvation" is meaningless and void, as he is not being "saved" from any danger or threat.

The only people heading for eternal damnation are the ones your tyrant god creates for that purpose. They are the only ones who need salvation, but your cruel God wants them to suffer.

Francis Drake · Mar 13, 2020

Kermos said:
In your self wllled mind you imagine you debunked the Word of God Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16), but in reality you fail in your fight against the Word of God. You cannot win, Francis Drake, not on your own - and you claim to win on your own by your work of a choice yet man is not saved by works rather we sheep of Jesus are saved by God's grace by the gift of God which is faith/belief (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Only a mentally challenged person would imagine that answering a choice is a work.

There you go again, trying to wantonly add ability to choose toward Jesus by your self willed rambling with you persisting in your practice of lawlessness to change the scripture AGAIN.

Ability to choose was given to Adam in the Garden of Eden. To imagine otherwise is just daft.

You wickedly twist scripture again and again as in your additions to Revelation 3:20 (post in this thread) and you alterations of the Jeroboam account in 1 Kings 11:38 (post in this thread) and your additions and subtractions to the Word of God "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) (post in this thread).

There you go again, calling me wicked. You claimed to love both me and @Dorothy Mae, yet you can't help the malice and vitriol that spews from your mouth.

There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16)

Debunked again and again.
The false god you serve is an evil monster.

Francis Drake · Mar 13, 2020

Kermos said:
There is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He said "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus.

@Kermos insists that God/Jesus alone makes the choice of who gets saved and who goes to damnation, but how does that tally with Paul's thinking?
1Tim2v3This is good and acceptable before God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
God clearly wants all men to be saved, and he alone can make it happen, so why did God's plan fail so abysmally?

And Jesus was given as a ransom for all mankind, not just the few.
5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6the One having given Himself as a ransom for all......
So if Jesus wants all men saved, and has paid the price for all to be saved, then why aren't all men saved. What has happened to stop them?

Kermos · Mar 13, 2020

Francis Drake said:
"I am the Lord, I change not."
The Lord never changes and the means of salvation has never changed since Adam.
It is, was and will always be by the blood of the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth.

I did not write that God changed. I said we are in New Coventant time. In the Old Testament we find:

First God created Adam, but Adam didn't ask to be created.

First God created Eve, but God didn't ask Eve if she wanted to be created.

First God chose Israel, but Isreal was never told that Israel could choose God.

The above is just some of the instruction from the Old Testament (Romans 15:4).

I did quote scripture with "A new [covenant]," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear" (Hebrews 8:13) which directly refers back to "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood" (Luke 22:20).

You wrote "the blood of the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth" which is clearly a reference to Revelation 13:8, but you misapply one direct obeject upon another direct object.

We must look at the linguistic structure of Revelation 13:8 which contains exquisitly arranged Language Arts!

In grammar, a complex sentence comprises an independent clause with one or more dependent clauses.

Within these clauses, there is a subject and a predicate.

A subject is a noun, and the subject can be a simple subject or complex subject.

Within a predicate is an action - a verb with potentially adverbs - affecting the subject.

The predicate may contain one or more object nouns which are referred to as a simple object as well as a complex object. A complex object is a simple object with descriptors identifying the simple object, such as adjectives, adverbs, prepositional phrases, etc that apply to the object noun.

Continuing with the matter of objects, here are classifications of objects:
- an object may be a "direct object" operated upon by the subject, and
- an object may be an "indirect object" operated upon by the subject by receiving a "direct object"; nonetheless, objects are operated upon by the subject.

A verb must be transitive for objects to be in the clause/sentence.

A "direct object" must exist before interaction with an "indirect object"; furthermore, an "indirect object" receives a "direct object".

With all these grammatical rules firmly established and verifiable, here is a simple restatement whereby everything in parenthesis may potentially be a phrase:

A_SUBJECT(noun) ACTS(verb) ON_AN_OBJECT_OR_OBJECTS(noun).

Now, it's time to apply the above grammar mechanics to the Apostle John's writing of "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8 parallel English version at this link, but the KJV cited here).

There is an independent clause of "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him".

And there is a dependent clause of "whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".

The dependent clause contains a subject of "whose names" which is dependent upon the subject of the independent clause of "all that dwell upon the earth".

The dependent clause contains a predicate of "are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".

The action portion is "are not written". The English word "written" is the Greek word "gegraptai" ("grapho" G1125) which is transitive as per the Apostle John's usage here under discussion.

This leaves two complex objects:
- "in the book of life of the Lamb slain"
- "from the foundation of the world"

Each of the complex objects contain the specific noun that makes it a complex object, and here is the identification of these nouns:
- the "book" is the object noun in "in the book of life of the Lamb slain"
- the "world" is the object noun in "from the foundation of the world"

The balance of words in each complex object follow the grammatical object rules. There is much description for the "book" in it's complex object. There is description for the "world" in it's complex object.

While I am uncertain whether both complex objects are "direct objects", I share my suspicion that:
- the "book" complex object is the "indirect object"
- the "world" complex object is the "direct object"

Now, both of these complex objects, nouns, are applied to the subject of the dependent clause, the subject being "whose names".

In this case, the complex objects can have their locations within the dependent clause interchanged without affecting the meaning.

It is certain that the Lamb was NOT slain continuously from the foundation of the world for the concept of the Lamb being slain continuously from the foundation of the world is absent from scripture, not even Revelation 13:8.

It is illegal grammatically to apply the direct object of "from the foundation of the world" to the descriptor of the adjacent object instead of the subject of the clause.

Revelation 13:8 must also be taken with Revelation 17:8 which states "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come".

The clause "whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" in Revelation 17:8 illuminates that the object of "from the foundation of the world" in Revelation 13:8 does not apply to the Lamb slain.

After all, the object of "from the foundation of the world" occurs in both Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8.

This is a second proof by way of cross referencing scripture with scripture that it is illegal grammatically in Revelation 13:8 to apply the direct object of "from the foundation of the world" to the Lamb which is the descriptor of the adjacent object instead of the subject of the clause.

In reference to the "the holy city, Jerusalem" (Revelation 21:10), it is written "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

"only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - names "written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain" (Revelation 13:8).

According to the book of Revelation, God knew the name of every person to be saved from the foundation of the world because God recorded the names in the Lamb's Book of Life.

On a related note, the KJV translation of Hebrews 9:26 is obtuse, "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself", and such a translation leads to deceit. Here is a plain contemporary English translation "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself", so this verse does not indicate Christ being continuously slain from the foundation of the world.

And, Hebrews 9:26 agrees with the Apostle Peter's writing of "For Christ also died for sins once" (1 Peter 3:18) and this "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross" (1 Peter 2:24).

In your self will you have Christ being crucified continuously from the foundation of the world, but that is not so according to Revelation 13:8. This is another instance of you altering scripture which carries a deadly penalty "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

com7fy8 · Mar 13, 2020

Francis Drake said:
If your god creates people specifically preprogrammed for eternal life with zero choice, then they were never ever in danger of eternal damnation.

Therefore your concept of "salvation" is meaningless and void, as he is not being "saved" from any danger or threat.

So, you say that if God controls people's choices, then ones destined for salvation are in no danger. Well, whether God's word means He has predestined people or not, I think it is clear we have all been in danger > our Apostle Paul does say, after all >

"we all once" "were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." (in Ephesians 2:3)

So, if all of us were once "children of wrath", we did need to be saved from being Satan's children, among other things. And it is clear how Jesus died for our sins, so we can be saved.

But how much control have we humans really had?

Our Apostle Paul says there is >

"the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

Satan's evil spirit, then, "works" within his children, I see from this. So, if Satan is working in his children, how much control do Satan's children have, of their own wills??

Our Apostle Paul says that "by nature" (Ephesians 2:2) we were Satan's children. I see this can mean, then, how it was our nature to stay with Satan. Is it not true that our real nature can even dictate what we are capable of choosing and not choosing??

My basic understanding of character is that my character limits what I am capable of choosing to do. And in sin my nature had me connected with Satan and how his evil and selfish spirit "works in" his children, and had me making my choices . . . except that, even then, God had control to have me do certain things to set me up to be ministered to so I would trust in Jesus.

So, if we really have trusted in Jesus > Ephesians 1:12 > who do we thank for the control to do this? Do we glorify ourselves that we changed ourselves to choose Jesus?

Our Apostle Paul says,

"But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

If it was "by nature" that our hearts refused Jesus, who do we thank for softening our hearts . . . so we then did obey Jesus "from the heart"? While we were "slaves of sin", how free were our wills? Jeremiah says >

"The heart is deceitful above all things,
. And desperately wicked;
. Who can know it?"
. . . . (Jeremiah 17:9)

So, do we glorify ourselves, that we got ourselves to change to trust in Jesus? I would say no we did not have such good control of our own selves. And who does that leave, to have the control we needed? God is the One alone who is good.

Jesus says,

"No one is good but One, that is, God." (Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18, and Luke 18:19)

So, in case the Bible does mean God made the good choice we needed, it is wise not to accuse Him of being bad and cruel. It is good, how He chose to send His own Son to die for us in order to save us. Jesus chose to so suffer and die for us. So, Jesus is not at all conceited, though we have "all" been "children of wrath, just as the others."

And it is good to consider, I would say, just what God has chosen.

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

It appears to me, how some number of arguing people do not give any attention to how God has destined His children to be conformed to the image of Jesus; but this . . . in my opinion . . . is the main focus of Christian ministry > Colossians 1:28-29. But, instead, ones are only fighting each other about free will versus some sort of predestination which does not bring about what Romans 8:29 says about predestination. There are both free will and predestination people who claim they are guaranteed Heaven, right while they are not preparing for Heaven by becoming changed to be and love like Jesus.

It seems there are free will people who are not busy with choosing to become like Jesus. Meanwhile, predestination ones are also not busy with becoming like Jesus. So, what sort of control do either sort of arguers have, really, while they argue about who has control?

Francis Drake · Mar 13, 2020

Kermos said:
I did not write that God changed. I said we are in New Coventant time. In the Old Testament we find:

First God created Adam, but Adam didn't ask to be created.

First God created Eve, but God didn't ask Eve if she wanted to be created.

They were given the choice to eat of two trees, the tree of Life or the Tree of Death. They chose death because they thought they knew better than God.

First God chose Israel, but Isreal was never told that Israel could choose God.

But Israel clearly did choose God, repeatedly.
Gen25v31But Jacob said, “Sell me your birthright as of this day.” 32And Esau said, “Look, I am about to die; so what is this birthright to me?” 33Then Jacob said, “Swear to me as of this day.”
Jacob wanted the birthright promises that God had given to Abraham, Isaac and now belonged Esau. Esau was indifferent, but Jacob/Israel knew their worth.
I don't expect you to see it with your blind Calvinist eyes.

The above is just some of the instruction from the Old Testament (Romans 15:4).

I did quote scripture with "A new [covenant]," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear" (Hebrews 8:13) which directly refers back to "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood" (Luke 22:20).

You wrote "the blood of the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth" which is clearly a reference to Revelation 13:8, but you misapply one direct obeject upon another direct object.

We must look at the linguistic structure of Revelation 13:8 which contains exquisitly arranged Language Arts!

In grammar, a complex sentence comprises an independent clause with one or more dependent clauses.

Within these clauses, there is a subject and a predicate.

A subject is a noun, and the subject can be a simple subject or complex subject.

Within a predicate is an action - a verb with potentially adverbs - affecting the subject.

The predicate may contain one or more object nouns which are referred to as a simple object as well as a complex object. A complex object is a simple object with descriptors identifying the simple object, such as adjectives, adverbs, prepositional phrases, etc that apply to the object noun.

Continuing with the matter of objects, here are classifications of objects:
- an object may be a "direct object" operated upon by the subject, and
- an object may be an "indirect object" operated upon by the subject by receiving a "direct object"; nonetheless, objects are operated upon by the subject.

A verb must be transitive for objects to be in the clause/sentence.

A "direct object" must exist before interaction with an "indirect object"; furthermore, an "indirect object" receives a "direct object".

With all these grammatical rules firmly established and verifiable, here is a simple restatement whereby everything in parenthesis may potentially be a phrase:

A_SUBJECT(noun) ACTS(verb) ON_AN_OBJECT_OR_OBJECTS(noun).

Now, it's time to apply the above grammar mechanics to the Apostle John's writing of "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8 parallel English version at this link, but the KJV cited here).

There is an independent clause of "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him".

And there is a dependent clause of "whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".

The dependent clause contains a subject of "whose names" which is dependent upon the subject of the independent clause of "all that dwell upon the earth".

The dependent clause contains a predicate of "are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world".

The action portion is "are not written". The English word "written" is the Greek word "gegraptai" ("grapho" G1125) which is transitive as per the Apostle John's usage here under discussion.

This leaves two complex objects:
- "in the book of life of the Lamb slain"
- "from the foundation of the world"

Each of the complex objects contain the specific noun that makes it a complex object, and here is the identification of these nouns:
- the "book" is the object noun in "in the book of life of the Lamb slain"
- the "world" is the object noun in "from the foundation of the world"

The balance of words in each complex object follow the grammatical object rules. There is much description for the "book" in it's complex object. There is description for the "world" in it's complex object.

While I am uncertain whether both complex objects are "direct objects", I share my suspicion that:
- the "book" complex object is the "indirect object"
- the "world" complex object is the "direct object"

Now, both of these complex objects, nouns, are applied to the subject of the dependent clause, the subject being "whose names".

In this case, the complex objects can have their locations within the dependent clause interchanged without affecting the meaning.

It is certain that the Lamb was NOT slain continuously from the foundation of the world for the concept of the Lamb being slain continuously from the foundation of the world is absent from scripture, not even Revelation 13:8.

It is illegal grammatically to apply the direct object of "from the foundation of the world" to the descriptor of the adjacent object instead of the subject of the clause.

Revelation 13:8 must also be taken with Revelation 17:8 which states "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come".

The clause "whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world" in Revelation 17:8 illuminates that the object of "from the foundation of the world" in Revelation 13:8 does not apply to the Lamb slain.

After all, the object of "from the foundation of the world" occurs in both Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8.

This is a second proof by way of cross referencing scripture with scripture that it is illegal grammatically in Revelation 13:8 to apply the direct object of "from the foundation of the world" to the Lamb which is the descriptor of the adjacent object instead of the subject of the clause.

In reference to the "the holy city, Jerusalem" (Revelation 21:10), it is written "nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27).

"only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life" (Revelation 21:27) - names "written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain" (Revelation 13:8).

According to the book of Revelation, God knew the name of every person to be saved from the foundation of the world because God recorded the names in the Lamb's Book of Life.

On a related note, the KJV translation of Hebrews 9:26 is obtuse, "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself", and such a translation leads to deceit. Here is a plain contemporary English translation "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself", so this verse does not indicate Christ being continuously slain from the foundation of the world.

And, Hebrews 9:26 agrees with the Apostle Peter's writing of "For Christ also died for sins once" (1 Peter 3:18) and this "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross" (1 Peter 2:24).

In your self will you have Christ being crucified continuously from the foundation of the world, but that is not so according to Revelation 13:8. This is another instance of you altering scripture which carries a deadly penalty "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Utter windbag nonsense, not connected to anything I said or believe in.

Of course Jesus died only once, I have argued that fact with many people, particularly with Catholics who make him a perpetual sacrifice in their masses.

Of course our names are written in the Lamb's book of life, before the world was made.

The point I was making is that the blood of the lamb applied to all believers from Adam onwards. Just as our names were written before the foundation of the world, so was Jesus's sacrifice written before the foundation of the world.

Dorothy Mae · Mar 13, 2020

Francis Drake said:
This has already been debunked many times over from John6 and elsewhere.

It’s useless.

Now I'm wicked.
What happened to brotherly love? Oh I forgot, Calvinists always murdered people they disagree with.

If a Calvinist is in charge, they allow murder, like Calvin. If not, they just call others nasty names.

I don't think you know the meaning of that word @Kermos. You've done nothing but spout vile threats and curses throughout this thread.

That’s what Calvinist do pretty much. They’re saved no matter how they behave.

I'm a Calvinist, God made me do it! Lol

He makes him call others names too. They’re predestined to do everything they do. How convenient!!

IS THE WILL OF HUMANS CONTROLLED BY GOD?

Well-Known Member

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Returning adventurer.

Returning adventurer.

Returning adventurer.

Returning adventurer.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Returning adventurer.

Returning adventurer.

Returning adventurer.

Returning adventurer.

God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Well-Known Member

Returning adventurer.

Well-Known Member

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