The Seed of Abraham

Charlie24 said:

Look at it as the Word of God.

There will be a 1000 year reign and you can't deny it!

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The Bible itself proves there is no literal, FUTURE, earthly millennium. The "evidence" is in the apostolic eschatological doctrine that prohibits any view of the "millennium" that portrays it as a future, literal, earthly epoch. A simple examination of the NT epistles shows that there is no future historical "thousand-years" period. We know this with certainty, for the apostles explicitly identified the precise timing of the resurrection, the judgment, and the New Heaven/Earth -- they all occur at the coming of Jesus Christ, thus proving that there is no literal "thousand years" that separates these events out over time.

(1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)

(2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)

(3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)

These key eschatological events all occur at the precise moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.

thomas_t said:

Romans 11 is the olive. But you didn't show that the olive is Israel as you say it is.

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Sigh.... Jeremiah 11:16-17

You previously acquiesced that God did indeed Give the Title Olive Tree To Israel, but you, through pure conjecture on your part, in order to get the scripture to fit your previously held view, supposed that Israel somehow, somewhere along the way, "Lost" that title, that God took away that title from her, even though there is no evidence of that happening.

You a re free to maintain that stance, but your really should drop the claim that the Bible doesn't testify that Israel is called the Olive Tree, for you are on record as agreeing it does.

thomas_t said:

In my opinion it's just a flaw made by the proponents of replacement theology (I mean those saying that the church has replaced Israel).
Replacement theology is conjecture.

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When did the Original Jewish Church, the Apostles, the 3000 on Pentecost, etc.. CEASE being National Israel?

The Church has never REPLACED Israel, it always WAS, and Remains Israel...

Saying the Church has replaced Israel would be the same as Saying the 7000 Faithful of Israel who refused to Bow their Knee to Baal also "Replaced" Israel (1 Kings 19:1-18; Romans 11:2-36)

Saying the Church has replaced Israel would be the same as Saying The Faithful "Church" of the nation in the Wilderness "Replaced" Israel when they entered the Promised Land (Numbers 14:26-45; Numbers 21:5-9; Numbers 16:1-50, Acts 7:38-45)

Saying the Church has replaced Israel would be the same as Saying the small but faithful remnant In Isaiah's day "Replaced" Israel. (Isaiah 10:22-23; Isaiah 1:7-9; Romans 9:27-29)

The Church NEVER Replaced Israel, the Church is, and always was, the Faithful Remnant OF Israel, and indeed is the only entity through which the continuation of the BIBLICAL NATION of Israel itself MUST be counted, for the rest were cut off forever (Acts 3:22-24)

God struck down thousands of rebellious Israelites in the wilderness (Num 14:26-45; Num 21:5-9; Num 16:1-50), though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45); In Isaiah's day, apostasy became so rampant that "All Israel" continued to exist through a small but faithful remnant (Isa 10:22-23; Isa 1:7-9; Rom 9:27-29); And again as mentioned above, in Elijah's era, the multitude of Israelites who worshiped the false god Baal was so great that "All Israel" narrowed to a mere seven thousand men (1 Kings 19:1-18; Rom 11:2-4). Lastly, at the close of the Old Testamental age, Israel was again reduced to a small remnant of faithful elect ones (Rom 11:5). The Jewish Pharisees and temple rulers grew wicked to the point of killing God's holy Messiah and apostles (1 Thess 2:14-16), and throngs wanted Caesar as king instead of Messiah, the son of David (Jn 19:15). Then, as in times past, "All Israel" survived and continued on EXCLUSIVELY through the faithful sons, the Nazarene Sect (The REMNANT), while the unfaithful apostates were "cut off" from among the people FOREVER.

Just as the jewish church abode with Moses in the wilderness (Acts 7:37-38), so Jesus had HIS jewish church (Mt. 16:18-19).

St. Paul said that when the nation was in mass apostasy, the TRUE NATIONAL Israel was carried on not through the lineages of the wicked sons but rather through the OBEDIENT FEW (called the "remnant"), such as was true in Isaiah's day (Romans 9:27-29) and Elijah's day (Romans 11:3-5).

St. Peter says the same thing at Acts 3:22-24, where it is clear that the wicked jews who refuse Christ were to be "cut off from among the People of Israel" while the faithful jews (John the Baptist, Joseph and Mary, the Twelve, the Seventy, the three thousand on Pentecost day, and many thousands of other jews) were the True Faithful Israel.

And within a few years after Pentecost, the faithful Israel learned how to start accepting both jewish and also gentile followers from all over the empire to convert into their Nation (1 Peter 2:9-10; Mt 21:40-45). And so the tiny remnant True Israel grew into a worldwide Judaism living under the promised NEW covenant of Israel's Messiah.

And so it was also in Moses' day, when the countless thousands of wicked sons of Abraham were slain in the wilderness while the faithful sons of Abraham survived and got to enter the Promised Land. We must NEVER count the continuation of Israel through the wicked sons but rather always through the faithful remnant!

Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global.

The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).

The REAL "replacement theology" is the one who seeks to REPLACE the Faithful Sons of Abraham with the Wicked ones as the true Heirs.

Such is, sadly, RAMPANT here on CF.

claninja said:

Correct, thus the promise to Abraham were to Christ.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”h meaning One, who is Christ.



Don't forget the gentiles.

Galatians 3:26-29 You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

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Gentiles are not the natural seed, they will not get the land promise.

Charlie24 said:

Gentiles are not the natural seed, they will not get the land promise.

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Hebrews 11 tells us what Abraham understood about God's promise to him (and foreigners were a part of that promise).

parousia70 said:

The Bible itself proves there is no literal, FUTURE, earthly millennium. The "evidence" is in the apostolic eschatological doctrine that prohibits any view of the "millennium" that portrays it as a future, literal, earthly epoch. A simple examination of the NT epistles shows that there is no future historical "thousand-years" period. We know this with certainty, for the apostles explicitly identified the precise timing of the resurrection, the judgment, and the New Heaven/Earth -- they all occur at the coming of Jesus Christ, thus proving that there is no literal "thousand years" that separates these events out over time.

(1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)

(2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)

(3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)

These key eschatological events all occur at the precise moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.

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There's no need to argue this. I told Dave that the timeline will be different and always is with RT.

Dave L said:

“For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.” Acts 3:22–23 (KJV 1900)

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nice passage. It's a true passage. Where did you find the word "olive" in it?
It is about people getting removed from a people.
In order for you to prove that the olive in Romans 11 is the same as the people in Acts 3... you need to bring something to the table.
Let me give you an example: today I removed a plate from the table. Last week I removed a plate from the chair. table=chair?

Thomas

parousia70 said:

You previously acquiesced that God did indeed Give the Title Olive Tree To Israel. [...]
but your really should drop the claim that the Bible doesn't testify that Israel is called the Olive Tree, for you are on record as agreeing it does.

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pardon? I wrote this:
"I missed that scripture indeed. Thank you for claring the issue up by naming that verse. This verse says that God called Israel "olive" in the Old Covenant. So I conclude, he might have taken the title "olive" from Israel now. Israel lost a title apparently. [...]"
Please don't twist my words.

parousia70 said:

but your really should drop the claim that the Bible doesn't testify that Israel is called the Olive Tree, for you are on record as agreeing it does.

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Bible says that Israel was (present tense) called the olive. This, in my interpretation, isn't proof for your claim that Israel still is. "nice beautiful, fruitful olive tree" could have been a title.
Sometimes lovers call each other like that. But there might have been a time when this stopped.

parousia70 said:

The Church has never REPLACED Israel, it always WAS, and Remains Israel...

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you have nothing to show that the church exsisted prior to the New Covenant already, we had this debate. I answered this here (LINK). Please lets avoid going round in circles. We've had the same debate about "church in the wilderness" and other assemblies - whether or not these can really be church in the sense of baptized Christians.

parousia70 said:

The Faithful "Church" of the nation in the Wilderness[...]
[...]
The Church NEVER Replaced Israel, the Church is, and always was, the Faithful Remnant OF Israel,
[...]
though the church was preserved and led to the Promised Land (Acts 7:38-45)

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But your church of the wilderness (Acts 7:38) was not faithful! And it was not a remnant. It was all Israel. We had this already here (LINK), please refrain from going round in circles with me. I really hate this.

The rest of your post did not show that faithful Israelis were the church in the sense of the New Testament church. In my opinion, you did not provide one single verse that Israel was the church. You just read that into the verses you cited.

In my opinion it's like this: Before, Israel used to be Israel.
Now you say: the church is Israel.
If you can't show that the church was Israel or that Israel used to be the church... then you're the one having committed replacement theology.

Dave L said: ↑
If you trace Israel from its roots you can see Abraham circumcised his 300+ soldiers. Among them, Ishmael was his only blood relative. But all became his covenant seed through circumcision (Genesis 17:11–13). They called them Hebrews at this point (Exodus 9:1).

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Charlie24 said:

Is this another supersessionism thread, Dave?

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Those of the faith of Abraham[a Hebrew Gentile] and Jesus[NC Grace/Faith] superseded Moses[OC Law].
Dispensationalists and modern day Phariseeism/Sadduceeism of course want to deny it.

Thus sayeth the Writings:

Mat 3:9 “and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. [Luke 3:8]
Jhn 8:39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.
Act 13:26
“Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.
Gal 3:7 Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.
Rom 9:7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”

Gen 21:12 But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called.

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Rom 11:1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2Co 11:22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.
Heb 2:16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.

1Pe 3:6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.
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This covenantle parable/story which was said in front of the Jews and Jewish Rulers is further confirmation of that:

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13). The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua. The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

LUKE 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Son/Child, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
LUKE 16:30 "And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "

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Rapture Refuted! Pre-tribulation Rapture and Premillennialism Refuted Home page

Replacement Theology, supersessionism: Christians are God's Jews. The church is true Israel.

Israel's land promise fulfilled in 1350 BC

1. Israel got all the land they were promised!
2. Israel's 1948 nationhood is not the beginning of the fulfillment of the land promise made to Abraham!
3. Abraham's land promise fulfilled by Joshua, Solomon!
4. Christ will never set foot on earth again!
5. Read more



"Replacement theology" or "supersessionism" is the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

John Hagee and others who oppose "replacement theology" are rank false teachers whom apostle Paul condemns as "fallen from grace, severed from Christ". (Gal 4:10; 5:4; Rom 7:1-7; Jer 31:31 + Heb 8:6-13)

The church is true Israel and Christians are God's true "Jews" today.

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Introduction:

1. "Replacement theology" or "supersessionism" is what those who teach the Rapture call the apostolic doctrine that physical Israel was replaced by the Spiritual church and Jews by blood were replaced by Jews by faith.
2. Premillentialists are carnal at their foundational core. They literalize all the clearly spiritual passages that are applied to the church and instead apply them 2000 years later to modern Israel.
3. Jesus taught that God would take his blessings away from fleshly Israel who rejected him as Christ and give it to the Gentiles. Jesus clearly taught the Gentile believers would replace Jewish non-believers.
a. "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it. " (Matthew 21:43)
b. The Jews who heard this understood what Rapture false teachers today refuse to see: "When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them. " (Matthew 21:45)
4. The Bible clearly teaches that God's true Jews today are Christians:
a. "For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. " (Romans 2:28-29)
b. "Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God [Christians]. " (Galatians 6:15-16)
c. "for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh, " (Philippians 3:3)
5. Even the apostolic fathers of the first and second century believed and taught "replacement theology":
a. "Christians are the True Israel" (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXIII, 130 AD)
b. "As therefore from the one man Jacob, who was surnamed Israel, all your nation has been called Jacob and Israel; so we from Christ, who begat us unto God, (like Jacob, and Israel, and Judah, and Joseph, and David,) are called and are the true sons of God, and keep the commandments of Christ" (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXIII, 130 AD)
c. "Christ is King of Israel, and Christians are the Israelitic Race. (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXXV, 130 AD)
d. "As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race." (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter CXXXV, 130 AD)
e. "For all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in their hearts.' ... But though a man be a Scythian or a Persian, if he has the knowledge of God and of His Christ, and keeps the everlasting righteous decrees, he is circumcised with the good and useful circumcision, and is a friend of God, and God rejoices in his gifts and offerings." (Justin Martyr, Dialogues, Chapter XXVIII, 130 AD)

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Charlie24 said:

Gentiles are not the natural seed, they will not get the land promise.

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Ezekiel disagrees with you in regards to the land. Ezekiel's vision states that foreigners do inherit the land.

Ezekiel 47:21-23 You are to divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD.”

Additionally, the only natural seed the promises were spoken to was Jesus

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”h meaning One, who is Christ.

claninja said:

Ezekiel disagrees with you in regards to the land. Ezekiel's vision states that foreigners do inherit the land.

Ezekiel 47:21-23 You are to divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD.”

Additionally, the only natural seed the promises were spoken to was Jesus

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”h meaning One, who is Christ.

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There are approximately 6 million Jews in Israel today. How many strangers can they take in?

They are very, very, few in number compared to the 7.5 Billion Gentiles on earth.

Israel has always had a few strangers since OT days. God did not leave them out.

If you could get residence by Israel law, you could be one of them. But who wants to live the way they are forced to live with death threats and violence every day. Only a Jew, and the descendants of those who joined the Jews in 1948.

Charlie24 said:

There are approximately 6 million Jews in Israel today. How many strangers can they take in?

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Ezekiel's prophecy is about Biblical Israel - NOT the modern-day geopolitical Israel.

Additionally, modern Jews practice a completely separate religion from Biblical Judaism.

mkgal1 said:

Ezekiel's prophecy is about Biblical Israel - NOT the modern-day geopolitical Israel.

Additionally, modern Jews practice a completely separate religion from Biblical Judaism.

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Paul makes it clear he is speaking of the Jews. He makes a clear distinction between the Israel and the Gentiles. He also calls them Jacob to leave no doubt!

Rom. 11:25-26
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

God knows who is the Jew and who is not!

Charlie24 said:

There are approximately 6 million Jews in Israel today. How many strangers can they take in?

They are very, very, few in number compared to the 7.5 Billion Gentiles on earth.

Israel has always had a few strangers since OT days. God did not leave them out.

If you could get residence by Israel law, you could be one of them. But who wants to live the way they are forced to live with death threats and violence every day. Only a Jew, and the descendants of those who joined the Jews in 1948.

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Again, Ezekiel proves you wrong that gentiles don't inherit the land.

Ezekiel 47:21-23 You are to divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD.”

claninja said:

Again, Ezekiel proves you wrong that gentiles don't inherit the land.

Ezekiel 47:21-23 You are to divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD.”

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LOL, as I said before, how many strangers are in Israel, very few.

I also said there has always been a few strangers with Israel. The latest ones joined with Israel in 1948 when Israel became a nation again.

If the Gentiles are to inherit the land, where will the 7.5 Billion of them reside?

Hint: they don't inherit the land.

Charlie24 said:

Hint: they don't inherit the land.

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Incorrect, Ezekiel proves your wrong, again and again.

Ezekiel 47:21-23 You are to divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD.”

claninja said:

Incorrect, Ezekiel proves your wrong, again and again.

Ezekiel 47:21-23 You are to divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there, declares the Lord GOD.”

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We know that the Gentiles from Europe, the USA, Russia, China, etc., etc., will not inherit the land. The land boundaries are not large enough. Most of the world will remain in their respective countries.

In most all cases in OT times the "strangers" joined Israel after a war and there was nowhere for them to go, Israel would take them in and they would come under covenant with God. Rahab and her family were an example.

The Bible does not tell us who these "strangers" are in Ezekiel 47.

After the battle of Armageddon when Israel is attacked by the antichrist, Zechariah said that 2/3 of Israel will be killed, only 1/3 will remain when it's over. The Palestinians who now dwell in the land of Israel will most definitely be effected during this battle.

Many theologians believe these "strangers" who are allotted land among the 12 tribes will be the Palestinians.

Charlie24 said:

We know that the Gentiles from Europe, the USA, Russia, China, etc., etc., will not inherit the land. The land boundaries are not large enough. Most of the world will remain in their respective countries.

In most all cases in OT times the "strangers" joined Israel after a war and there was nowhere for them to go, Israel would take them in and they would come under covenant with God. Rahab and her family were an example.

The Bible does not tell us who these "strangers" are in Ezekiel 47.

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So then you agree that foreigners do inherit the land, as specifically stated in Ezekiel 47?

Charlie24 said:

Many theologians believe these "strangers" who are allotted land among the 12 tribes will be the Palestinians.

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Please provide 1 theologian that believes this.

claninja said:

So then you agree that foreigners do inherit the land, as specifically stated in Ezekiel 47?




Please provide 1 theologian that believes this.

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The fact that the 12 tribes are told By God to give inheritance to strangers is not the argument. It is plainly written in scripture.

It's true that the promises given to Abraham have been fulfilled in Christ. The argument by the reformed is that all the believers in Christ will inherit the land.

That's what we disagree with. We say that the Jew, naturally born with Jewish blood, as was Jesus, are the 12 tribes and the land is divided for them.

The strangers are no doubt Gentiles. But they are not all the believers of Christ. The scripture doesn't say who they are. But we know they are small in number because of the future boundaries given in Ezekiel.

I have read many opinions of who these strangers are. Some have said Palestinians, some say representatives from the nations of the world, some say they are who God has chosen by His own hand, who knows. It is all opinion and not at all fact.