The Near/Far Phenomenon in Bible Prophecy

Christian Gedge · Feb 28, 2020

parousia70 said:
Do you assert there will be a 3rd, or maybe even a 4th or 5th "ultra far fulfillment" or more in our future?
Why or why not?

You referenced Acts 2:16-21, yet only quoted Acts 2:16-17..

Lest look at 18-21
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’

Are you asserting vs 18-21 were fulfilled in the 2nd fulfillment?
Or should we be expecting the 18-21 verses to fulfilled one at a time in various 3rd, 4th, 5th "far" fulfillment in our future..?

Why or why not...?

I try to keep my posts short and sweet. :holy:

But you make good points, and Ill try to get to the 'day of the Lord' references later on. Can you suggest what the "wonders in heaven, signs in the earth beneath, blood, fire and vapor of smoke" etc. meant in the context of the Pentecost outpouring?

keras · Feb 28, 2020

parousia70 said:
Lest look at 18-21
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
21 And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.’
/QUOTE]

Joel 2 is all prophecy about the end times. What happened at Pentecost, as per Acts 2, was just a preview of what is yet to happen.

Joel and Acts 2:21 both say what we must do on the yet to happen; terrible Day of cosmic events and earthly disasters.

Christian Gedge · Mar 1, 2020

Example 4 – Siege of Jerusalem.

Predicted 480 BC approx

Zechariah lived well after any Old Testament siege of Jerusalem, so the last section of his book foresees something beyond our usual Bible dates. It is a difficult book to understand, but the first two verses of chapter fourteen are quite clear.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem. The city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2)

1st Fulfillment 70 AD

Jesus picked up on this prophecy and provided additional detail. (Luke 19:41-44) He was, as was Zechariah before him, predicting the Roman siege that would befall Jerusalem between 66 and 70 AD. An interesting tradition tells us how the Christians, following the Lord’s advice, fled to the hills on the other side of the Jordan river before the destruction of the city.

When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24)

However, Zechariah chapter fourteen, and Jesus’ expansion of same, contain seriously apocalyptic description that cannot be explained in the 70 AD fulfilment. It is true that he mixes literal and metaphorical imagery, but it does not alter the fact that “the Lord will go out and find fight against those nations,” (Zech. 14:3) whereas, in the case of 70 AD he used the Romans as his instruments of judgement against Jerusalem. This is why I say some prophecy, as clear as it is to a ‘near’ fulfilment, contains language that is metaphorical with the first event, but is literal in a second fulfilment.

2nd Fulfillment (yet future)

So, Zechariah 12 to 14 is an apocalyptic prophecy for a siege yet to happen, and 70 AD was precursor to it. The following is what will happen during an end-time siege of Jerusalem.

And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. (Luke 21:25-28)

keras · Mar 1, 2020

I see Zechariah 14:1-2 as entirely about the time when the Anti-Christ leader of the future One World Government, comes in force to Jerusalem and conquers the holy people of God.
As described in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7, and shown to happen 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. Daniel 9:27, Revelation 12:13-17.

The Roman conquest of the Jews was prophesied by Daniel 9:26b, Luke 21:20-24 and literally fulfilled in 70 - 135 AD.

OOps, a NZ cricketer out!
For those who are unfamiliar with the glorious game of cricket, New Zealand is playing India. NZ is about to win!

Christian Gedge · Mar 1, 2020

keras said:
I see Zechariah 14:1-2 as entirely about the time when the Anti-Christ leader of the future One World Government, comes in force to Jerusalem and conquers the holy people of God.

Admittedly, Luke never said, "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Zechariah", but he did connect the Roman conquest with the "sun and moon and stars" signs in the very next verses. So I can't see any other way of interpreting Luke 21:20-28 except by a 'near/far' explanation.

So, we are going to beat India? My brother is the cricketer. He'll be pleased. :clap:

keras · Mar 1, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Admittedly, Luke never said, "This is that which was spoken by the prophet Zechariah", but he did connect the Roman conquest with the "sun and moon and stars" signs in the very next verses. So I can't see any other way of interpreting Luke 21:20-28 except by a 'near/far' explanation.

There is a long time break between Luke 21:20-24 and Luke 21:25-26.
Then another; shorter time, about ten years, until Luke 21:27-28, for the Return of Jesus.
This is plain, because the cosmic signs didn't happen in the first century. Also we are now still in the day of the gentiles... as can be seen by all the foreigners in every part of the holy Land.

jahel · Mar 2, 2020

keras said:
There is a long time break between Luke 21:20-24 and Luke 21:25-26.
Then another; shorter time, about ten years, until Luke 21:27-28, for the Return of Jesus.
This is plain, because the cosmic signs didn't happen in the first century. Also we are now still in the day of the gentiles... as can be seen by all the foreigners in every part of the holy Land.

They’re both the flip side of the Jubilee that Jesus was sent the first time to accomplish and the second time to punish where His Jubilee was ignored by the ignorants.

claninja · Mar 2, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Example 4 – Siege of Jerusalem.

Predicted 480 BC approx

Zechariah lived well after any Old Testament siege of Jerusalem, so the last section of his book foresees something beyond our usual Bible dates. It is a difficult book to understand, but the first two verses of chapter fourteen are quite clear.

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem. The city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. (Zechariah 14:1-2)

1st Fulfillment 70 AD

Jesus picked up on this prophecy and provided additional detail. (Luke 19:41-44) He was, as was Zechariah before him, predicting the Roman siege that would befall Jerusalem between 66 and 70 AD. An interesting tradition tells us how the Christians, following the Lord’s advice, fled to the hills on the other side of the Jordan river before the destruction of the city.

When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24)

However, Zechariah chapter fourteen, and Jesus’ expansion of same, contain seriously apocalyptic description that cannot be explained in the 70 AD fulfilment. It is true that he mixes literal and metaphorical imagery, but it does not alter the fact that “the Lord will go out and find fight against those nations,” (Zech. 14:3) whereas, in the case of 70 AD he used the Romans as his instruments of judgement against Jerusalem. This is why I say some prophecy, as clear as it is to a ‘near’ fulfilment, contains language that is metaphorical with the first event, but is literal in a second fulfilment.

2nd Fulfillment (yet future)

So, Zechariah 12 to 14 is an apocalyptic prophecy for a siege yet to happen, and 70 AD was precursor to it. The following is what will happen during an end-time siege of Jerusalem.

And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. (Luke 21:25-28)

Zechariah lived before and after multiple sieges of Jerusalem.

701 BC- Assyria
597 BC- Babylon
587 BC - Babylon
134 BC - seleucids
67 BC - Hasmonean civil war
63 BC - Pompey
37 BC - Herod the great
70 AD - Titus

However, it is the siege by Rome that fulfills "all that is written" in regards to the days of vengeance.

Luke 23:20-22 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

If this "fulfills" or "brings to completion" the days of vengeance against Jerusalem, I'm not understanding, from a logical standpoint, how it could occur again. When something is finished/completed, it isn't finished/completed again.

Christian Gedge · Mar 2, 2020

claninja said:
701 BC- Assyria
597 BC- Babylon
587 BC - Babylon
134 BC - seleucids
67 BC - Hasmonean civil war
63 BC - Pompey
37 BC - Herod the great
70 AD - Titus

I should have expanded my post to explain how the 134bc, 67bc, 63bc, and 37bc battles were comparatively shorter than the others you've listed, but I think you know that.

claninja said:
Luke 23:20-22 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

If this "fulfills" or "brings to completion" the days of vengeance against Jerusalem, I'm not understanding, from a logical standpoint, how it could occur again. When something is finished/completed, it isn't finished/completed again.

Verses 25-28 come after that. How would you interpret them if not a yet future siege of Jerusalem.

And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. (Luke 21:25-28)

claninja · Mar 2, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Verses 25-28 come after that. How would you interpret them if not a yet future siege of Jerusalem.

1.) Verses 25-28 don't mention another siege

And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. (Luke 21:25-28)

2.) Additionally, The signs in the heavens were to occur "immediately" after the tribulation of Jerusalem
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

3.) The 6th seal, which includes the signs in the sky from the olivet discourse, is also associated with the fulfillment of Hosea
Revelation 6:12-16 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slaved and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”

Jesus associates this fulfillment of hosea with the destruction of Jerusalem.
Luke 23:28-29 But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’

Thus, the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad is the completion of all that was written in the law, psalms, and prophets in regards to the days of vengeance.

Luke 21:22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.

If the days of vengeance are completed in the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem, as clearly testified by scripture, why would it need to be completed again? Logically, once something is completed or fulfilled, it doesn't need to be completed again.

Christian Gedge · Mar 3, 2020

And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting with fear and with foreboding of what is coming on the world. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Now when these things begin to take place, straighten up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near. (Luke 21:25-28)

I would like to draw attention to an oft ignored part of Luke quoted above. "... distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves ..." This is not mentioned in any of the synoptic gospels except Luke, and I would like to ask two questions about it.

If it happened literally in the past, is there any mention of unusual tidal activity between AD 67-70, by Josephus or any other historian?
If it is to be interpreted metaphorically, how may we do this? Ive heard figurative interpretations of 'falling stars', but never 'roaring waves.'

Any thoughts on this?

Gottservant · Mar 3, 2020

I think this is utterly fascinating.

Anyone that can't understand that prophecy is convergent, not merely iterate, misses much of the point of prophecy (especially in the Old Testament).

The convergent nature of prophecy (near and far), hangs on another important truth, which fulfils both in both, viz. that Jesus the Messiah, never did anything until the time was fulfilled.

You can argue prophecy didn't converge one way and another, but if you suggest that Jesus was a little over-eager to fulfil prophecy,, you really don't grasp what it means to suffer that prophecy be as convergent as possible.

If everyone in the Church had this attitude to prophecy and suffering for Christ, there would be far fewer arguments, of any kind.

Christian Gedge · Mar 4, 2020

Gottservant said:
If everyone in the Church had this attitude to prophecy and suffering for Christ, there would be far fewer arguments, of any kind.

True. If we could get away from the extreme edges of futurism and Preterism it would help. I have found 'near/far' to be a helpful in case of the examples given. I hope to add a few more God willing.

Christian Gedge · Mar 12, 2020

Getting back to example 4. I put forward my reasons in post number #23 why I believe it’s ultimate fulfilment is yet future. However my part-Pret friends, rejecting any concept of ‘near/far’, maintain a complete and final fulfilment in AD 70.

Personally, I believe AD 70 was a ‘near’ precursive fulfilment but, to those who don’t, may I ask how they explain Zechariah 1:3 (quoted below) In what way did the LORD fight with Jerusalem against the army of Titus?

“Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.”
(‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭14:1-3‬)

claninja · Mar 14, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Getting back to example 4. I put forward my reasons in post number #23 why I believe it’s ultimate fulfilment is yet future. However my part-Pret friends, rejecting any concept of ‘near/far’, maintain a complete and final fulfilment in AD 70.

Personally, I believe AD 70 was a ‘near’ precursive fulfilment but, to those who don’t, may I ask how they explain Zechariah 1:3 (quoted below) In what way did the LORD fight with Jerusalem against the army of Titus?

“Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.”
(‭‭Zechariah‬ ‭14:1-3‬)

I would argue zechariah 14 is a parable about the 1st coming and destruction of Jerusalem.

I typically like to focus more on the 1st coming in this passage:

1.) Jesus' death is when the spoils were divided
Zechariah 14:1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst.

Isaiah 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death

Luke 11:22 but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil.

2.) Jesus stood on the mount of olives just before ascending to the Father. It is by Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension that disarmed the authorities of the world.

Zecharaih 14:3-4 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward.

Acts 1:9,12 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem,

Colossians 2:14- 15 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

3.) Christ's ascension results in the sending of the Spirit
Zecharaih 14:8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sead and half of them to the western sea.

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in me, asf the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Christian Gedge · Mar 14, 2020

claninja said:
I would argue zechariah 14 is a parable about the 1st coming and destruction of Jerusalem.

I typically like to focus more on the 1st coming in this passage:

Ive read your metaphorical explanation of “the Lord will go out and find fight against those nations” (Zech. 14:3)

We differ of course. I can only repeat that some prophecy may indeed contain language that is metaphorical with the first event, but is literal in a second (far) fulfillment. Zechariah 14:3 is such a case IMHO.

claninja · Mar 15, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Ive read your metaphorical explanation of “the Lord will go out and find fight against those nations” (Zech. 14:3)

I believe the metaphorical language of Zechariah 14 points to literal events at Christ’s first coming: his death, resurrection, ascension, sending of the spirit, new covenant, and gospel.

I don’t believe the events of Jesus life, death, resurrection, ascension, sending of spirit, gospel, and new covenant are metaphorical.

what is the near event that you believe Zechariah 14 is prophesying of?

DavidPT · Mar 15, 2020

claninja said:
I would argue zechariah 14 is a parable about the 1st coming and destruction of Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

But there is no way to make sense of the text----and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city---if 70 AD is meant. Especially the latter part---and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

But if we also consider this verse, maybe this verse helps explains this part in Zecharaih 14:2---and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. IOW, maybe a literal city is not even meant here.

And if a literal city might not be meant here, it for sure couldn't be meaning Jerusalem in the first century in that case.

keras · Mar 15, 2020

DavidPT said:
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

But there is no way to make sense of the text----and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city---if 70 AD is meant. Especially the latter part---and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Understanding God's Plans for our future is the way to understand Zechariah 4:1-2.

Sadly, people mostly have wrong ideas about what will happen soon to the world and to we Christians.
All the faithful people of God will gather and go to live in all of the holy Land. Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-27 all plainly state this. Psalms 107 describes our journey.

So the attack of Zech 14 describes the time when the Anti-Christ leader of the rest of the world comes to us and takes over Jerusalem. As prophesied in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7
He will sit in the new Temple and declare himself to be god. 2 Thessalonians 2:4

The people will be divided into 2 groups, as Daniel 11:32-35 and Revelation 12:6-17, says

claninja · Mar 16, 2020

DavidPT said:
Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

I believe this points to literal sieges and/or destruction against the earthly city Jerusalem.

DavidPT said:
But there is no way to make sense of the text----and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city---if 70 AD is meant. Especially the latter part---and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

Zechariah 14 seemingly discusses 1 city of Jerusalem, but I believe 2 are being discussed here. 1 is the shadow that was sieged and conquered by earthly nations many times, the other being reality that can never be trampled nor destroyed.

1.) the earthly Jerusalem as representative of the old covenant, which was only a shadow of the heavenly Jerusalem

2.) the heavenly Jerusalem as representative of the new covenant, the reality.

There is a point when the earthly city of Jerusalem no longer became the representative city of God's covenant, which ultimately lead to its destruction, while the heavenly Jerusalem was where the living waters came from and the nations would go to.

According to Paul, the earthly Jerusalem was representative of the old covenant and was to be cast out to inherit nothing, while the heavenly Jerusalem, which represented the new covenant, was to inherit.

Galatians 4:24-26,30 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. But what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman

The author of hebrews states that we "have come" to the heavenly Jerusalem.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,

The Near/Far Phenomenon in Bible Prophecy

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