The Saint Steve Highlights of Christ Triumphant

Saint Steven · Mar 12, 2020

The question remains, and will remain till it receives due answer. Is God really Master? or is sin to oust Him from any part of His own house for ever? To reject Calvinism is easy enough, but to reject the divine Sovereignty is to reject holy Scripture, p. 32-3, and may I not add to reject the verdict of reason too?

Again, I entreat my readers to pay no heed to the delusive plea that claims victory for Christ, if He shuts up His enemies in hell, as though the sole victory possible to a divine Being were not the conversion of His enemies; as though the perpetuation of evil in hell were not His defeat. But, in truth, the traditional creed is essentially, if not formally, dualistic. There is a Deity (nominally) supreme, and a rival demigod, Satan. There are two confronting empires, destined to exactly the same duration. In the middle ages we find actually represented in painting a rival Trinity, a Trinity of Evil . - DIDRON, Iconog. Chret. ii. 23. How profound is the revelation thus made of the beliefs ruling the minds of men, still ruling in those who believe that the devil is all but omnipotent, and practically omnipresent.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter ten --- bold emphasis mine

Adamina · Mar 12, 2020

Der Alter said: ↑ Was God demonstrating His love in Genesis 7:21-22, Genesis 19:24-25, Exodus 12:29, Exodus 14:28?

Adamina said: ↑
Was He demonstrating His love to the Jews in the Holocaust of 70 Jerusalem[ and in WW2]?

Saint Steven said:
Are you claiming that God is not love?
Humans have free will. Don't blame God for what we do with that freedom.

Hello S S
Yahweh/Jesus is indeed love and that is the message He brought to the Jews in Jerusalem and Israel to redeem both them first and all of mankind.
The Jews had free will to either accept or reject Him.
Some made the choice to reject/rebel against Him [and suffered wrath] while others chose to accept Him and escaped His fiery wrath in 70ad

Luke 21:23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping all these, the being about to be becoming, and to stand before the Son of the Man.

Can God not be both loving and chastising and bring vengeance to those that continue to rebel against Him ? Does not a parent discipline their children when they do wrong?

Heb 12:5 And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you as a father addresses his son? It says, “My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all.

This parable/story in Luke 16 is a good example.

Note that Abraham calls this rich man "Son/Child". Is Yahweh/Jesus disciplining him out of hatred or love?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." 24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented[anquished] in this flame.' "
25 "But Abraham said, 'Son/Child, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.

The Total Victory of Christ
"The Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus has long been viewed as a proof text for the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell fire. This parable does depict very harsh punishment. However when you understand who Lazarus is in the parable, and what the crime of the rich man was then you understand he is receiving the equal measure for their crimes, but not an infinite measure."

===================================
Jesus is love, and He only desires His children to obey Him and walk in the way of righteousness and truth.

Hos 10:10 I will come against the wayward people to chastise them; and nations shall be gathered against them when they are chastised for their double iniquity.
30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[fn] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.

Rev 3:19
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.
==========================
These passages show the triumphant Christ who conquered death, as we also have passed from death to life thru our faith, obedience and love for Him.

Revelation 1:18 and the living One! And I became dead and behold, I am living into the Ages of the Ages, and I am having the Keys of the Hades and of the Death

Adamina · Mar 12, 2020

FineLinen said:
http://www.mercyuponall.org/2015/10/...st-triumphant/

The entire book below

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

If any of you have made your way thru this remarkable book you should be aware of what our own Saint has accomplished in his highlights. Thank you Steve!

Tentmaker is a favorite site of mine.

Christ Triumphant
or Universalism Asserted
as the Hope of the Gospel on the Authority of Reason, the Fathers, and Holy Scripture

Saint Steven said:
The question remains, and will remain till it receives due answer. Is God really Master? or is sin to oust Him from any part of His own house for ever? To reject Calvinism is easy enough, but to reject the divine Sovereignty is to reject holy Scripture, p. 32-3, and may I not add to reject the verdict of reason too?

Again, I entreat my readers to pay no heed to the delusive plea that claims victory for Christ, if He shuts up His enemies in hell, as though the sole victory possible to a divine Being were not the conversion of His enemies; as though the perpetuation of evil in hell were not His defeat. But, in truth, the traditional creed is essentially, if not formally, dualistic. There is a Deity (nominally) supreme, and a rival demigod, Satan. There are two confronting empires, destined to exactly the same duration. In the middle ages we find actually represented in painting a rival Trinity, a Trinity of Evil . - DIDRON, Iconog. Chret. ii. 23. How profound is the revelation thus made of the beliefs ruling the minds of men, still ruling in those who believe that the devil is all but omnipotent, and practically omnipresent.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter ten --- bold emphasis mine

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin
CHAPTER X

Let us go to the Bible. Those who have reason to shrink from this appeal are not Universalists, but are the advocates of endless sin; of a baffled Savior; of a victorious devil. It is they who shut their eyes to the teaching of the Bible. It is they who make light of its repeated promises of a restitution of all things. It is they who make Scripture of none effect by their traditions. To the Bible they come drugged by early prejudice; saturated with cruel traditions, to whose horror long familiarity has deadened the mind. And so it is, that many really cannot see the true force of Scripture, when it plainly asserts the restitution of all things. Hence the painful evasions; the halting logic that honestly (for I gladly admit this) but blindly turns the Bible upside down, i.e., teaching that all men drawn to Christ, means half mankind drawn to the devil; all things reconciled through Christ, means the final perdition of half the universe. The notion of the popular creed, i.e., that God is in the Bible detailing the story of His own defeat, how sin has proved too strong for Him, this notion seems wholly unfounded. Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort; it is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin - of life victorious over every form of death - of God triumphing over evil.
===========================

Der Alte · Mar 12, 2020

Adamina said:
Hello S S
Yahweh/Jesus is indeed love and that is the message He brought to the Jews in Jerusalem and Israel to redeem both them first, then all of mankind and.
They had free will to either accept or reject Him.
Some made the choice to reject/rebel against Him [and suffered wrath] while others chose to accept Him and escaped His fiery wrath in 70ad
Can God not be both loving and chastising and bring vengeance to those that continue to rebel against Him ? Does not a parent discipline their children when they do wrong?
This parable/story in Luke 16 is a good example.
Note that Abraham calls this rich man "Son/Child". Is Yahweh disciplining him out of hatred or love?
LUKE 16:23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom." 24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' "
25 "But Abraham said, 'Son/Child, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.
"The Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus has long been viewed as a proof text for the doctrine of eternal punishment in hell fire. This parable does depict very harsh punishment. However when you understand who Lazarus is in the parable, and what the crime of the rich man was then you understand he is receiving the equal measure for their crimes, but not an infinite measure."
===================================
Jesus is love. and He only desires His children to obey Him and walk in the way of righteousness and truth.
Rev 3:19
Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.
==========================
These passages show the triumphant Christ who conquered death, as we also have passed from death to life thru our faith, obedience and love for Him.

Every ECF who quoted/referred to Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual. I guess they got it wrong but people 2000 years +/- later somehow got it right.

Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, 120-202 AD, was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead. By these things, then, it is plainly declared that souls continue to exist that they do not pass from body to body, that they possess the form of a man, so that they may be recognised, and retain the memory of things in this world; moreover, that the gift of prophecy was possessed by Abraham, and that each class of souls] receives a habitation such as it has deserved, even before the judgment.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection. But he figuratively designates the vulgar rabble, attached to ephemeral pleasure, flourishing for a little, loving ornament, loving praise, and being everything but truth-loving, good for nothing but to be burned with fire. “There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
The Epistles Of Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
A good man out of the good treasure bringeth forth good things; and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.” Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah (A.D. 260-312)
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

Reasons why Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable.
The Lazarus and the rich man story could be some other type of literary device but it is not a parable. The word “parable” is from the Greek word παραβολή/parabolé which means “to lay beside.” A parable explains or clarifies something unknown by comparison with something known. All unquestioned parables include this e.g. “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field… Matthew 13:24
Jesus introduces five of His parables as such Matthew 21:33, Matthew 24:32, Mark 4;13, Mark 13;28 and Luke 8:11. Others identifies 21 of Jesus’ parables as such.
…..The story of Lazarus is not introduced or identified as a parable and Jesus did not explain it later to His disciples.
The story of Lazarus does not have the structure of a parable. There is no comparison between something unknown or misunderstood about the kingdom of heaven and some earthly event.
All unquestioned parables refer to real events something which could have or has happened in this life not something fictitious, unreasonable or impossible. Other than Lazarus and the rich man living and dying, which happens to everybody, there is nothing about the story which is or can be compared to anything in this life.
All unquestioned parables refer to anonymous people, a certain shepherd, a certain widow etc. At some time in history a shepherd searched for and found a lost sheep. At some time in history a widow searched for and found a lost coin.
The story of Lazarus names two specific people, Lazarus, otherwise unknown, and Abraham, an actual historic person. If Abraham was never in the place Jesus mentioned and did not say the words Jesus quoted, then Jesus was lying.

FineLinen · Mar 12, 2020

Adamina said:
Tentmaker is a favorite site of mine.

Christ Triumphant
or Universalism Asserted
as the Hope of the Gospel on the Authority of Reason, the Fathers, and Holy Scripture

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin
CHAPTER X

Let us go to the Bible. Those who have reason to shrink from this appeal are not Universalists, but are the advocates of endless sin; of a baffled Savior; of a victorious devil. It is they who shut their eyes to the teaching of the Bible. It is they who make light of its repeated promises of a restitution of all things. It is they who make Scripture of none effect by their traditions. To the Bible they come drugged by early prejudice; saturated with cruel traditions, to whose horror long familiarity has deadened the mind. And so it is, that many really cannot see the true force of Scripture, when it plainly asserts the restitution of all things. Hence the painful evasions; the halting logic that honestly (for I gladly admit this) but blindly turns the Bible upside down, i.e., teaching that all men drawn to Christ, means half mankind drawn to the devil; all things reconciled through Christ, means the final perdition of half the universe. The notion of the popular creed, i.e., that God is in the Bible detailing the story of His own defeat, how sin has proved too strong for Him, this notion seems wholly unfounded. Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort; it is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin - of life victorious over every form of death - of God triumphing over evil.
===========================

Dear Adamina: The Lord has declared the entire universe of the heavens, earth & underworld will ultimately bow the knee & confess in worship of unrestrained tones "You are Lord"! This worship is NOT by perfunctory genuflections but IN/EN His lovely Name.

"Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort; it is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin - of life victorious over every form of death - of God triumphing over evil."

All sin, all thanantos swallowed up in Life!

FineLinen · Mar 12, 2020

FineLinen said:
Dear Adamina: The Lord has declared the entire universe of the heavens, earth & underworld will ultimately bow the knee & confess in worship of unrestrained tones "You are Lord"! This worship is NOT by perfunctory genuflections but IN/EN His lovely Name.

"Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort; it is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin - of life victorious over every form of death - of God triumphing over evil."

All sin, all thanantos swallowed up in Life!

Overview - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Every created thing (pan ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4 ; James 1:18 ), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse James 3 , with on the sea epi th qalassh added).

No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisi) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off. Saying (legonta). Masculine (construction according to sense, personifying the created things) if genuine, though some MSS. have legonta (grammatical gender agreeing with panta) present active participle of legw, to say. And to the Lamb (kai twi arniwi). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. -A.T. Robertson-

Adamina · Mar 12, 2020

FineLinen said:
Every created thing (pan ktisma). Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4 ; James 1:18 ), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse James 3 , with on the sea epi th qalassh added).

No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisi) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off. Saying (legonta). Masculine (construction according to sense, personifying the created things) if genuine, though some MSS. have legonta (grammatical gender agreeing with panta) present active participle of legw, to say. And to the Lamb (kai twi arniwi). Dative case. Praise and worship are rendered to the Lamb precisely as to God on the throne. -A.T. Robertson-

Great post F L.
A few verses and commentaries on "every creature" mentioned in the NT/NC, including the Book of Revelation.

Mar 16:15
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Pulpit Commentary

Verses 15, 16. - And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation (πάσῃ τῇ κτίσει). He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. Here is a considerable interval of time, not noticed in any way by the evangelist. And he saith unto them; not on the day of his resurrection. It would seem that this charge was delivered to them in Galilee, and that it is the same as that recorded in St. Matthew (Matthew 28:19), which was again repeated immediately before his ascension from Bethany. Go ye into all the world; not into Judaea only, but everywhere. This command has expanded with the discovery in later times of new portions of the inhabited earth; and must ever be coextensive with geographic discovery. Preach the gospel to the whole creation; that is, "among all nations." Man is the noblest work of God.
All the creation is gathered up in him, created after the image of the Creator. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned. These words are very important. The first clause opposes the notion that faith alone is sufficient for salvation, without those works which are the fruit of faith. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; that is, he that believeth, and as an evidence of his faith accepts Christ's baptism, and fulfils the promises and vows which he then took upon himself, working out his own salvation with fear and trembling, shall be saved. But he that disbelieveth shall be condemned (ὁ δὲ ἀπιστήσας κατακριθήσεται,). The condemnation anticipates the doom which will be incurred by continual unbelief.

Benson Commentary

Mark 16:15-16. Go ye into all the world — To all countries under heaven; and preach the gospel to every creature — That is, to all mankind, to every human being, whether Jew or Gentile, for our Lord speaks without any limitation or restriction whatever. On this Bengelius remarks, “If all men, of all places and ages, have not heard the gospel, the successors of the first preachers, or those whose duty it was to hear it, have not answered God’s design herein, but have made void his counsel.” He that believeth — The gospel which you preach, with his heart unto righteousness; he that receives your testimony with a faith productive of love to God and man, and of obedience to the divine will; and who, in token of that faith, is baptized, and continues till death to maintain a temper and conduct suitable to that engagement, shall be saved — That is, he shall, by virtue of that faith and baptism, be put into a state of salvation: he shall be saved from the guilt and power of his sins into the favour and image of God; his person shall be justified, and his nature sanctified; and he shall be entitled to, and made meet for, eternal salvation; of which also he shall be made a partaker, if he continue in the faith he has received, and do not wilfully recede from his baptismal covenant. He that believeth not — With such a faith as is above described, whether baptized or unbaptized; shall be damned — Κατακριθησεται, shall be condemned, namely, at the day of final judgment, and in consequence thereof shall perish eternally.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

Rev 5:13
and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'

Pulpit Commentary

Verse 13. - And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them; and every created thing which is in the heaven, and on the earth and under the earth, and on the sea, and all things that are in them (Revised Version). All animated creation now joins in the ascription of praise. Those under the earth are probably the "spirits in prison" of 1 Peter 3:19, though Vitringa understands the expression to be used of the devils "who unwillingly obey Christ," and even declare his glory, as in Mark 1:24, "I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God." The sea is meant literally; the apostle's object being to include all animated beings wheresoever existing. It has been remarked that St. John's exile at Patmos would render him familiar with the appearance of the sea, and account for its frequent use in the Apocalypse, both literally and symbolically. The things on the sea would signify, not merely ships with their inhabitants, but also those animals in the sea which are known to men by dwelling near the surface. "All things that are in them" serves to render emphatic the universality of the description, as in Exodus 20:11 and Psalm 146:6, "The Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is." Heard I saying. "Saying" is masculine, λέγοντας in 10, 13, P, Vulgate, Andr. a, c, Arethas, Primasius. But the neuter, λέγοντα, is read in A, 1, 12, Andr. p, bay. Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power; the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion (Revised Version). The Revisers have wisely rendered κράτος, "the dominion," by a different word from δύναμις, "power," of ver. 12, both of which in the Authorized Version are rendered "power." The article, too, serves to give greater emphasis, making the expression tantamount to "all blessing," etc. (see on Revelation 4:11). Nothing is signified by the omission of three attributes. The number four is symbolical of the complete creation, and may be used on that account; but probably the omission is to avoid repetition, the four attributes given being typical of the seven just previously uttered. Be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb forever and ever. That is, unto the Triune God (see on Revelation 4:2). Christ, as having part with the Father and the Holy Ghost in the Godhead, sits upon the throne, and is worthy with them to receive adoration. But in his special character as the Redeemer, he is also singled out to receive the praises of the redeemed.

FineLinen · Mar 12, 2020

Adamina said:
Great post F L.
A few verses and commentaries on "every creature" mentioned in the NT/NC, including the Book of Revelation.

Mar 16:15
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Pulpit Commentary

Benson Commentary

Rev 5:13
and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, 'To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, is the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'

Pulpit Commentary

Dear Adamina: Those under the earth are the entire mass of humanity past present & future who have suffered thanantos. Every last one, every join in the chorus of worship in union with His Name.

The powerful record of St. Peter regarding spirits in prison, are disobedient mankind wiped out by the flood minus 8.

“Who shall render an account unto him who is holding in readiness to judge living and dead; for, unto this end, even unto the dead, was the glad-message delivered,—in order that they might be judged, indeed, according to men in flesh, but might live according to God in spirit.” -Rotherham Emphasized-

Dead=

nekros= a corpse (from nekus)=

Breathed his last/ lifeless.

Deceased/ departed.

Destitute of life/ without life.

Inanimate.

Disobedient= apeitheo=

Not to allow one’s self to be persuaded.

To refuse or withhold belief & obedience.

To refuse belief and obedience.

Not to comply with.

Live= zao=

To be alive with resurrection life.

Saint Steven · Mar 12, 2020

Let us go to the Bible. Those who have reason to shrink from this appeal are not Universalists, but are the advocates of endless sin; of a baffled Savior; of a victorious devil. It is they who shut their eyes to the teaching of the Bible. It is they who make light of its repeated promises of a restitution of all things. It is they who make Scripture of none effect by their traditions. To the Bible they come drugged by early prejudice; saturated with cruel traditions, to whose horror long familiarity has deadened the mind. And so it is, that many really cannot see the true force of Scripture, when it plainly asserts the restitution of all things. Hence the painful evasions; the halting logic that honestly (for I gladly admit this) but blindly turns the Bible upside down, i.e., teaching that all men drawn to Christ, means half mankind drawn to the devil; all things reconciled through Christ, means the final perdition of half the universe. The notion of the popular creed, i.e., that God is in the Bible detailing the story of His own defeat, how sin has proved too strong for Him, this notion seems wholly unfounded. Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort; it is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin - of life victorious over every form of death - of God triumphing over evil.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter ten --- bold emphasis mine

FineLinen · Mar 12, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Let us go to the Bible. Those who have reason to shrink from this appeal are not Universalists, but are the advocates of endless sin; of a baffled Savior; of a victorious devil. It is they who shut their eyes to the teaching of the Bible. It is they who make light of its repeated promises of a restitution of all things. It is they who make Scripture of none effect by their traditions. To the Bible they come drugged by early prejudice; saturated with cruel traditions, to whose horror long familiarity has deadened the mind. And so it is, that many really cannot see the true force of Scripture, when it plainly asserts the restitution of all things. Hence the painful evasions; the halting logic that honestly (for I gladly admit this) but blindly turns the Bible upside down, i.e., teaching that all men drawn to Christ, means half mankind drawn to the devil; all things reconciled through Christ, means the final perdition of half the universe. The notion of the popular creed, i.e., that God is in the Bible detailing the story of His own defeat, how sin has proved too strong for Him, this notion seems wholly unfounded. Assuredly the Bible is not the story of sin, deepening into eternal ruin, of God's Son, worsted in His utmost effort; it is from the opening to the close the story of grace stronger than sin - of life victorious over every form of death - of God triumphing over evil.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter ten --- bold emphasis mine

Any scope of the One who does all as the A.& F. resulting in partial triumph of the Triumphant One misses the mark with a capital M.

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension of the heavens, earth, underworld IN/EN worship!

Saint Steven · Mar 13, 2020

Once more I repeat that the larger hope EMPHATICALLY AND FULLY ACCEPTS the doctrine of retribution. Those who picture Universalism as some easygoing system, which refuses to face the stern facts of sin and misery and retribution, are hopelessly wrong. We press on all the impenitent the awful certainty of a wrath to come, and this with far more chance of acceptance, because taught in a form that does not wound the conscience; because we care not teach that finite sin shall receive an infinite penalty. Few things have so hindered the spread of the larger hope as the wholly and absolutely groundless notion, that it implies an inadequate sense of sin, and pictures God as a weakly indulgent Being, careless of holiness, provided the happiness of His creatures is secured. In fact it is those who teach the popular creed, and not we, who make light of sin. To teach unending sin in hell, even in a solitary instance, and under any conceivable modification, is to teach the victory of evil. To us this seems at once a libel on God and an untruth -a libel because it imputes to God a final acquiescence in sin; an untruth, because it teaches that His Omnipotence breaks down at the very moment it is most needed, and that His Love and Purity can rest with absolute complacency, while pain and evil riot and rot for ever.

May it not be said a peculiarly evil form of dualism, for in it the Good Spirit freely permits the entrance of evil, which He knows will endure for ever?

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter ten --- bold emphasis mine

Der Alte · Mar 13, 2020

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
Dear Saint: The Will of all wee wills prevails! The final issue of sin prevailing over Him and His awesome love & grace in frail ignorant mankind has term limits.

And Linus thought if he repeated "The Great Pumpkin" over and over and over TGP would appear in the pumpkin patch.

Saint Steven · Mar 14, 2020

Here we may ask, can any light, however small, be thrown on this awful mystery of sin? For all practical purposes, I reply, there are but two possible views of moral evil. It is endless as God Himself, which is in fact dualism;" or it is temporary, and in God's mysterious plan, permitted only to serve a higher end. Indeed this view of moral evil seems to be substantially that of S. THOMAS AQUINAS; "he makes the elevation of the creature above the original capabilities of his nature, to depend on the introduction of sin."- NEANDER, Ch. Hist. viii. 216. Thus it is a stage in the development of the creature, and of this there seems a hint conveyed in the story of the first sin. By it man is said to have "BECOME AS ONE OF US," as though the very Fall implied a Rise. Certainly Scripture asserts that "God has shut up all men unto disobedience, in order that He might have mercy upon all !" Note here the stress boldly laid (I.) on God's agency, and not on man's will. (II). The universality alike of sin and of salvation, both are equally absolute and universal. (III). But sin is permitted only as leading up to, as involving salvation. And thus we see not an arrangement by which man starts innocent, free to choose sin or not, but a (virtual) provision for the hereditary transmission of evil; by which innocence becomes impossible to all; by which every child of ADAM is, in the divine plan, "shut up unto (sin) disobedience," an arrangement inconceivable on the part of a good and loving Father, except with a settled purpose of mercy to every one. I am not presumptuous enough to fancy that I have a novel solution to offer of this profound mystery, but if the Bible be truly from God, then no solution is possible which refuses (as do almost all interpreters) to treat seriously the following striking passages, on the ground probably that reverence for the Bible is reverence for those parts of the Bible that suit our own views. These passages have been, in fact, completely ostracized.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter ten --- bold emphasis mine

Der Alte · Mar 14, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Here we may ask, can any light, however small, be thrown on this awful mystery of sin? For all practical purposes, I reply, there are but two possible views of moral evil. It is endless as God Himself, which is in fact dualism;" or it is temporary, and in God's mysterious plan, permitted only to serve a higher end. Indeed this view of moral evil seems to be substantially that of S. THOMAS AQUINAS; "he makes the elevation of the creature above the original capabilities of his nature, to depend on the introduction of sin."- NEANDER, Ch. Hist. viii. 216. Thus it is a stage in the development of the creature, and of this there seems a hint conveyed in the story of the first sin. By it man is said to have "BECOME AS ONE OF US," as though the very Fall implied a Rise. Certainly Scripture asserts that "God has shut up all men unto disobedience, in order that He might have mercy upon all !" Note here the stress boldly laid (I.) on God's agency, and not on man's will. (II). The universality alike of sin and of salvation, both are equally absolute and universal. (III). But sin is permitted only as leading up to, as involving salvation. And thus we see not an arrangement by which man starts innocent, free to choose sin or not, but a (virtual) provision for the hereditary transmission of evil; by which innocence becomes impossible to all; by which every child of ADAM is, in the divine plan, "shut up unto (sin) disobedience," an arrangement inconceivable on the part of a good and loving Father, except with a settled purpose of mercy to every one. I am not presumptuous enough to fancy that I have a novel solution to offer of this profound mystery, but if the Bible be truly from God, then no solution is possible which refuses (as do almost all interpreters) to treat seriously the following striking passages, on the ground probably that reverence for the Bible is reverence for those parts of the Bible that suit our own views. These passages have been, in fact, completely ostracized.

Unfortunately neither Neander nor Aquinas are scripture and neither quotes any scripture. This post therefore is a logical fallacy, "Appeal to authority." What these two guys said should be accepted without question because they are assumed to be authorities.

Saint Steven · Mar 15, 2020

*Does CLEMENT of Alexandria mean this when he speaks of Adam as "made a man by disobedience." - Adm. ad gent.

"I am the Lord; I make peace and CREATE EVIL; I THE LORD DO ALL THESE THINGS." - Is. xlv. 7. Note the emphatic repetition, for true reverence, true honesty, demands a frank recognition of these words. Nor do they stand alone in their general teaching. Take, e.g., the memorable scene when Satan appears before God, and receives from Him power over Job, and those passages in which we read of an evil spirit from the Lord (1 .Sam. xvi. 14, xviii. 10: xix. 9). Again, God is represented as saying to the lying spirit, "Go forth and do so :" and the Lord is said to have "put a lying spirit" in the mouth of the prophets (1 Kings xxii. 23). So in Judges ix. 23, God sends an evil spirit. I advance no theory, but quote Scripture, and protest against explaining it away under the plea of reverence. In addition to all this we have repeated statements that "God hardens" the human heart, "shuts the eyes lest they should see; and the ears lest they should hear." - See Ex. iv. 21, vii. 3, ix. 12, x. 1 ; Deut. ii. 30; Josh. ix . 20; Is. vi. 10, xix. 14, xxix. 10, lxiii. 17; Jer. xiii. 13, xx. 7; Ezek. xiv. 9, xx. 25; Am. iii. 6; Ps. cv. 25, &c.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter ten --- bold emphasis mine

Saint Steven · Mar 16, 2020

Thus is text heaped upon text, line upon line. It is most strange to find all these brushed away, by the very men who contend for a literal meaning elsewhere? They say, 'It is wrong to press these, because they are unworthy of God." Be it so. But, if so, pray remember that you cannot play fast and loose with a principle. If you brush away a mass of plain texts, because they are unworthy of God, will you explain why I may not brush away texts (quoted to prove endless pain) that are far from plain, crowded with metaphor, ambiguous, and in their cruelty, as generally interpreted, unworthy, I will not say of God, but of any decent human being. Observe, that I do not desire to brush them away, but to interpret them rightly; yet it is well to show once more that our opponents do not carry out consistently their own principles, p. 254. Nor is this all. When they brush away texts because unworthy of God, they are again inconsistent, for they thereby affirm the capacity of our moral sense to judge of religious truth and the ways of God, see pp. 14-7, which the traditional creed nearly always in effect, and very often in words, denies.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter ten --- bold emphasis mine

Der Alte · Mar 16, 2020

Saint Steven said:
*Does CLEMENT of Alexandria mean this when he speaks of Adam as "made a man by disobedience." - Adm. ad gent.

Could you identify this alleged writing more fully so someone can research it? I have checked the standard collection of Clement's writing and cannot find a title anything like Adm ad gent. and cannot find the word disobedience in those writings.

Saint Steven · Mar 17, 2020

Nor can we say that in the Old Testament God is represented as doing that which He permits to be done; for the New Testament is emphatic on this point. "Whom He will He HARDENS. Rom ix. 18. "HE HAS SHUT up all men unto unbelief.". - ib. xi. 32. "GOD GAVE them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see," v. 8. "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." - 2 Thess. ii. 11. Such is S. PAUL'S emphatic testimony. S. JOHN, too, echoes and reaffirms (ch. xii. 39-40) ISAIAH'S saying that the Jews COULD NOT believe, BECAUSE God had blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts. And so our Lord declares that God had "hid certain things from the wise," - S. Matt. xi. 25 - and that He spoke in parables in order that seeing His hearers might not perceive. - S. .Mark iv. 12; S. Luc. viii. 10; cf 1 Pet. ii. 8. The uncompromising, fearless tone of Scripture is remarkable: everywhere it sees the divine hand, and in everything traces a divine Purpose and Will. It seems a false reference for the Bible to explain away all this. Indeed, to a thoughtful mind light comes from calmly facing these hard sayings. And so S. PAUL adds: The law was given in order that the "offense might abound." - Rom. v. 20. The law "reveals - ib. iii. 20 - provokes - ib. vii. 7-13 - multiplies - ib. V. 20 - sin or transgression." - LIGHTFOOT on Gal. iii. 19. This, he adds, is S. PAUL'S leading conception of the function of the law.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter ten --- bold emphasis mine

FineLinen · Mar 17, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Nor can we say that in the Old Testament God is represented as doing that which He permits to be done; for the New Testament is emphatic on this point. "Whom He will He HARDENS. Rom ix. 18. "HE HAS SHUT up all men unto unbelief.". - ib. xi. 32. "GOD GAVE them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see," v. 8. "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." - 2 Thess. ii. 11. Such is S. PAUL'S emphatic testimony. S. JOHN, too, echoes and reaffirms (ch. xii. 39-40) ISAIAH'S saying that the Jews COULD NOT believe, BECAUSE God had blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts. And so our Lord declares that God had "hid certain things from the wise," - S. Matt. xi. 25 - and that He spoke in parables in order that seeing His hearers might not perceive. - S. .Mark iv. 12; S. Luc. viii. 10; cf 1 Pet. ii. 8. The uncompromising, fearless tone of Scripture is remarkable: everywhere it sees the divine hand, and in everything traces a divine Purpose and Will. It seems a false reference for the Bible to explain away all this. Indeed, to a thoughtful mind light comes from calmly facing these hard sayings. And so S. PAUL adds: The law was given in order that the "offense might abound." - Rom. v. 20. The law "reveals - ib. iii. 20 - provokes - ib. vii. 7-13 - multiplies - ib. V. 20 - sin or transgression." - LIGHTFOOT on Gal. iii. 19. This, he adds, is S. PAUL'S leading conception of the function of the law.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin chapter ten --- bold emphasis mine

It is evident that our God dwells in mystery. It is only out of mystery that He comes to us in spontaneous vibrations to manifest Himself to us. This experience is not for the wise of heart, or those thinking they are wise, but must come as we come to the end of ourselves in utter destitution.

"The purpose of the cross is to do away with you, blessed riddance."

Der Alte · Mar 17, 2020

Saint Steven said:
*Does CLEMENT of Alexandria mean this when he speaks of Adam as "made a man by disobedience." - Adm. ad gent....

I found a copy of this book online. I could not find what you quoted but I did find this.

Clement Admonition to the Gentiles.
For, as the apostle Paul hath excellently reasoned, Rom. v. 12. since it was consistent with the justice and goodness of God, to subject all to death for the disobedience of Adam, notwithstanding the greatest part of mankind never heard either of Adam or of his disobedience, …p. 186

A New Literal Translation from the Original Greek, of All the Apostolical Epistles. With a Commentary, and Notes ... To which is Added, a History of the Life of the Apostle Paul ... By James Macknight ... The Fourth Edition. To which is Prefixed, an Account of the Life of the Author

And FYI this is the correct way to cite sources.

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