Argument from incredulity and arguments against God's existence

packermann said:

I am not saying that atheists have not responded to the Pascal's Wager, but that does not mean that they have successfully refuted it. Far from it, I have evidence that their arguments have not successfully refuted at all. But first, I want to know from you the evidence that has successfully refuted it.

Click to expand...

Okay.

Would you agree that Pascal's Wager goes like this:
"Logically, it makes sense for you to believe in the Christian God, like me (a Christian). If I am right and God exists, then you will go to heaven. If you are right, and there is no God, then there is nothing after death, and so you've lost nothing."

Would you agree that this is a fair summary of Pascal's Wager? If not, please present your own summary.

InterestedAtheist said:

Ed1wolf said: ↑
It takes place during their lifetime as they follow Christ. No one that is presently living on the earth have reached that point. It only happens after death or at the Second Coming of Christ.

IA: In that case, you're saying that people are capable of spiritual development after death. So in that case, we must assume it is possible for people to go to hell from heaven - if they are capable of having the spiritual epiphany there. That makes sense, which is perhaps why it is completely contradictory to Christian teachings.

Click to expand...

No, I didnt say that. I said during their lifetime, while they are alive on the earth they grow spirtually, it is completed when they die or when Christ comes back whichever happens first. This is the majority view among orthodox Christians and has been throughout most of the church's history.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
The length of time varies for the person. Some people it may take only 13 years another 100 years. And yes often there are very interesting and amazing events along the way. It is not magic, it is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit working with your will that changes your will to only choose good.

ia: Sounds like magic A miraculous transformation which God could, presumably, work upon any human at any time.

Click to expand...

No, He cant, because it requires true love of God to occur and that requires a free will choice. If He just changed them without it being a free choice that is not true love.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
They are CAPABLE of doing it, but because spiritually they are new creations, they wont.

ia: If they're capable of doing it, then quite possibly they will.
If they are spiritually new beings who can be guaranteed not to do evil, then one wonders why God didn't just create humans like that in the first place.

Click to expand...

No, it is like a cat mating with a dog, they are physically capable but they never will. See above about true love why He didn't.

Ed1wolf said:

No, He cant, because it requires true love of God to occur and that requires a free will choice. If He just changed them without it being a free choice that is not true love.

Click to expand...

You're right about that, and I must restate my argument: no, God can't (I suppose) deliberately change a person without their knowledge and consent. But that doesn't mean that God couldn't change a person to a perfect condition with their knowledge and consent - ie, any faithful Christian.

Ed1wolf said:

No, I didnt say that. I said during their lifetime, while they are alive on the earth they grow spirtually, it is completed when they die or when Christ comes back whichever happens first.

Click to expand...

I think we can forget about "when Jesus comes back" for the time being. Let's concentrate on what we do know - Christians who die. You position is very peculiar indeed. Think about it:
- You claim that there are Christians who die and go to heaven.
- In heaven, they are perfect - knowing all and guaranteed not to use their free will to sin.
- You claim that this is as a result of the spiritual evolution throughout their lifetime.
- But if that were so, we would see people who are like angels, and know that they will go to heaven when they die. We would see, on earth, people who not only do not choose to sin but who are incapable of sin. And, obviously, we don't see these people.
- More than that, it's established Christian dogma that you do not need to live a life of continual purity to go to heaven. All you do is make a decision - even if just a few seconds before your death - to trust in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. Right? So where's this spiritual development we were talking about? Do you think a lifelong criminal who decides - we assume sincerely - to be a Christian moments before dying, is now in a position where they could never again choose to sin?
- Therefore, for you to be right about the people who go to heaven, their spiritual development over a lifetime is completely inadequate.
- Therefore, for them to be people who would never choose to sin, some other intervention is required. You say this isn't magic, but God transforming people so that they have superhuman levels of virtue necessary to exist in heaven sounds pretty close to the definition of magic.
- Finally, therefore: if God could do this to imperfect humans after their deaths, then He could do it to any human, at any level of imperfection. All that would be required is for them to choose to be saved. So why should God not transform people on Earth who so choose - or, for that matter, in hell?

Ed1wolf said:

No, it is like a cat mating with a dog, they are physically capable but they never will. See above about true love why He didn't.

Click to expand...

In fact, cats can and do mate with dogs. Rare, but not unknown. Just as your idea that people can sin in heaven, but never would, is nothing more than your personal opinion. There's no way you can guarantee it, because otherwise free will wouldn't be free.

InterestedAtheist said:

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, He cant, because it requires true love of God to occur and that requires a free will choice. If He just changed them without it being a free choice that is not true love.

ia: You're right about that, and I must restate my argument: no, God can't (I suppose) deliberately change a person without their knowledge and consent. But that doesn't mean that God couldn't change a person to a perfect condition with their knowledge and consent - ie, any faithful Christian.

Click to expand...

No, one of His primary goals for this universe is to destroy evil forever. That cannot be accomplished without spiritual growth among free will beings. if He just immediately made us perfect, we would not grow spiritually such as by fighting evil on the earth.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, I didnt say that. I said during their lifetime, while they are alive on the earth they grow spirtually, it is completed when they die or when Christ comes back whichever happens first.

I think we can forget about "when Jesus comes back" for the time being. Let's concentrate on what we do know - Christians who die. You position is very peculiar indeed. Think about it:
- You claim that there are Christians who die and go to heaven.
- In heaven, they are perfect - knowing all and guaranteed not to use their free will to sin.

Click to expand...

I didn't say they will know all. One of the things we will be doing in heaven is learning.

ia: - You claim that this is as a result of the spiritual evolution throughout their lifetime.
- But if that were so, we would see people who are like angels, and know that they will go to heaven when they die.

Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by being like angels, but there are people that know that they will go to heaven when they die, including myself.

ia: We would see, on earth, people who not only do not choose to sin but who are incapable of sin. And, obviously, we don't see these people.

Click to expand...

No, that does not follow. As I said the process of perfection is not complete until death.

ia: - More than that, it's established Christian dogma that you do not need to live a life of continual purity to go to heaven. All you do is make a decision - even if just a few seconds before your death - to trust in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. Right?

Click to expand...

As long as they sincerely repent of their life of sin, which is extremely unlikely but yes it is a possibility.

ia: So where's this spiritual development we were talking about? Do you think a lifelong criminal who decides - we assume sincerely - to be a Christian moments before dying, is now in a position where they could never again choose to sin?

Click to expand...

You are right there is not much spiritual development if that happens and that is why they would be in the lowest parts of heaven. Their reward would not be very great. But since they are still a new creation, their will can still be changed enough not to choose sin again.

ia: - Therefore, for you to be right about the people who go to heaven, their spiritual development over a lifetime is completely inadequate.

Click to expand...

While their development is stunted, their will is still changed as I said above.

ia: - Therefore, for them to be people who would never choose to sin, some other intervention is required. You say this isn't magic, but God transforming people so that they have superhuman levels of virtue necessary to exist in heaven sounds pretty close to the definition of magic.

Click to expand...

Magic is based on deception, supernatural change is not.

ia:- Finally, therefore: if God could do this to imperfect humans after their deaths, then He could do it to any human, at any level of imperfection. All that would be required is for them to choose to be saved. So why should God not transform people on Earth who so choose - or, for that matter, in hell?

Click to expand...

Because His goal would not be accomplished of destroying evil forever. People are needed to grow spiritually in order to accomplish this goal. That is why it is extremely rare for people to truly have deathbed conversions. They dont accomplish His goals.

Ed1wolf said: ↑
No, it is like a cat mating with a dog, they are physically capable but they never will. See above about true love why He didn't.
ia: In fact, cats can and do mate with dogs. Rare, but not unknown. Just as your idea that people can sin in heaven, but never would, is nothing more than your personal opinion. There's no way you can guarantee it, because otherwise free will wouldn't be free.

Click to expand...

Well I guess a better example would be an elephant mating with a giraffe or a rat with a parrot. It is not my opinion it is what God's word teaches.