The Seed of Abraham

claninja

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In the same vision, the man with the measuring reed measured the exact borders of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Correct, in the vision, the man did that.

Do you believe the old covenant (law of moses) is the reality or a shadow?

He measured the land in which the priests would have, and called by name each tribe and the literal borders by cities and the ocean as boundaries.

Correct, in the vision, the man did that.

Do you believe the old covenant (law of moses) is the reality or the shadow?


God tells Ezekiel that the Dead Sea will come alive with fish of all kinds and plentiful for the fishermen.

Correct, in the vision, there is a literal river running from the temple to the dead sea. It's important to notice that along the banks of this river there are trees that produce fruit each month and their leaves are for healing.

Ezekiel 47:1,12 Then the man brought me back to the entrance of the temple, and I saw water flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar. Along both banks of the river, fruit trees of all kinds will grow. Their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. Each month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will be used for food and their leaves for healing.”

This is clearly pointing to the New Jerusalem, which has a river flowing from the throne of the Lord, which is the temple, and trees on either side of this river that produce fruit each month and their leaves are for healing.

Revelation 22:1-2 Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

So what is this river coming from the Ezekiel temple? Revelation states it is the a "river of the water of life". What is the "water of life"?

The River running from the Ezekiel temple is living water. According to scripture. rivers of living water = the Holy Spirit.

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’” He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

You seem to recognize that Peter's vision of literal unclean animals becoming clean SYMBOLIZES the gentiles becoming clean by the blood of Christ. Why wouldn't you use this same interpretation method when it comes to Ezekiel's vision of an earthly temple, its sacrifices, and rituals?


 
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Charlie24

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Correct, in the vision, the man did that.

Do you believe the old covenant (law of moses) is the reality or a shadow?



Correct, in the vision, the man did that.

Do you believe the old covenant (law of moses) is the reality or the shadow?




Correct, in the vision, there is a literal river running from the temple to the dead sea. It's important to notice that along the banks of this river there are trees that produce fruit each month and their leaves are for healing.

Ezekiel 47:1,12 Then the man brought me back to the entrance of the temple, and I saw water flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar. Along both banks of the river, fruit trees of all kinds will grow. Their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. Each month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will be used for food and their leaves for healing.”

This is clearly pointing to the New Jerusalem, which has a river flowing from the throne of the Lord, which is the temple, and trees on either side of this river that produce fruit each month and their leaves are for healing.

Revelation 22:1-2 Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the main street of the city. On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

So what is this river coming from the Ezekiel temple? Revelation states it is the a "river of the water of life". What is the "water of life"?

The River running from the Ezekiel temple is living water. According to scripture. rivers of living water = the Holy Spirit.

John 7:38-39 Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’” He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

You seem to recognize that Peter's vision of literal unclean animals becoming clean SYMBOLIZES the gentiles becoming clean by the blood of Christ. Why wouldn't you use this same interpretation method when it comes to Ezekiel's vision of an earthly temple, its sacrifices, and rituals?


Ezekiel's vision is clearly NOT the New Jerusalem!

This temple is during the 1000 reign of Christ! How do I know this?

When the thousand years are expired (Rev. 20:7-10) Satan will be loosed from his prison and will deceive the nations. They will all be destroyed and no sin or sinner will be left on earth.

There will still be sin sin during this 1000 year reign. It's clear because some nations will refuse to come to Jerusalem to worship Christ.

Beginning in Rev. 21, after the 1000 years, the New Jerusalem appears and there will be no more death, sorrow, crying, pain, these things are passed away.

This temple is clearly during the 1000 year reign of Christ with the New Jerusalem to follow at the end of this 1000 years.
 
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Dave L

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Ezekiel's vision is clearly NOT the New Jerusalem!

This temple is during the 1000 reign of Christ! How do I know this?

When the thousand years are expired (Rev. 20:7-10) Satan will be loosed from his prison and will deceive the nations. They will all be destroyed and no sin or sinner will be left on earth.

There will still be sin sin during this 1000 year reign. It's clear because some nations will refuse to come to Jerusalem to worship Christ.

Beginning in Rev. 21, after the 1000 years, the New Jerusalem appears and there will be no more death, sorrow, crying, pain, these things are passed away.

This temple is clearly during the 1000 year reign of Christ with the New Jerusalem to follow at the end of this 1000 years.
There is no millennium. Christ began reining from David's throne at his resurrection. The Temple in Ezekiel is clearly supernatural and to be understood spiritually.

The description by Ezekiel generally lists only lengths and widths, not heights, except for side pillars of 60 cubits (Ezek 40:14). So who but God can build it?

Jonathan Menn. Biblical Eschatology.
 
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Charlie24

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There is no millennium. Christ began reining from David's throne at his resurrection. The Temple in Ezekiel is clearly supernatural and to be understood spiritually.

The description by Ezekiel generally lists only lengths and widths, not heights, except for side pillars of 60 cubits (Ezek 40:14). So who but God can build it?

Jonathan Menn. Biblical Eschatology.

I agree that Ezekiel's temple has a spiritual meaning, but it also has a literal fulfillment.

Compare the vision of Ezekiel's temple to John's vision of New Jerusalem in Rev. 21:9-27, there is no comparison.
 
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Charlie24

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There is no millennium. Christ began reining from David's throne at his resurrection. The Temple in Ezekiel is clearly supernatural and to be understood spiritually.

The description by Ezekiel generally lists only lengths and widths, not heights, except for side pillars of 60 cubits (Ezek 40:14). So who but God can build it?

Jonathan Menn. Biblical Eschatology.

Dave, have you even read the measurements of New Jerusalem?

The gates of the city are 216 feet high, made of one single pure pearl.

The length and breadth of the city is half the size of the United States.

The city is 1500 miles high.
 
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Dave L

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Dave, have you even read the measurements of New Jerusalem?

The gates of the city are 216 feet high, made of one single pure pearl.

The length and breadth of the city is half the size of the United States.

The city is 1500 miles high.
Revelation is all symbolism. Jesus says we cannot understand prophecy until aff he fulfills it.

“Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.” John 13:19 (KJV 1900)
 
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Charlie24

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Revelation is all symbolism. Jesus says we cannot understand prophecy until aff he fulfills it.

“Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.” John 13:19 (KJV 1900)

Yes, John's and Ezekiel's vision are symbols of what has been and what is to come.

That would be our Lord Jesus Christ.

He will sit in the 3rd and 4th temples and the world will worship Him.

The 3rd temple for His chosen people. He will prove to the world that His plan for Israel was never cast away and they will yet fulfill their mission in the 1000 years. The world will once again respect the Jew.

The 4th temple as the God of this universe. Where the Jew and Gentile will worship the Lord on equal terms, and forever.
 
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Dave L

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Yes, John's and Ezekiel's vision are symbols of what has been and what is to come.

That would be our Lord Jesus Christ.

He will sit in the 3rd and 4th temples and the world will worship Him.

The 3rd temple for His chosen people. He will prove to the world that His plan for Israel was never cast away and they will yet fulfill their mission in the 1000 years. The world will once again respect the Jew.

The 4th temple as the God of this universe. Where the Jew and Gentile will worship the Lord on equal terms, and forever.
Jesus is the temple made without hands. And you destroy his atonement when you think animal sacrifices will return with God's authorization.
 
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Charlie24

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Jesus is the temple made without hands. And you destroy his atonement when you think animal sacrifices will return with God's authorization.

Yes, He is. During this age of Grace.

But during the 1000 years and the Perfect Age when He will physically sit in the temples, the spiritual will become the literal.

This is the spiritual truth of Ezekiel's and John's visions. The spiritual will become a reality.
 
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Dave L

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Yes, He is. During this age of Grace.

But during the 1000 years and the Perfect Age when He will physically sit in the temples, the spiritual will become the literal.

This is the spiritual truth of Ezekiel's and John's visions. The spiritual will become a reality.
You bit into a Pharisee doctrine that Jesus continually refuted in the gospels.
 
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Charlie24

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You bit into a Pharisee doctrine that Jesus continually refuted in the gospels.

Dave, I love you and admire your stamina in your belief. I wish we all could put forth the faith that you demonstrate.

But my friend you have been led astray on the plan of our God from the foundation of the world.

Our God chose Abraham to become the father of a peculiar people we know today as Israel. He has watched over them and kept them through thick and thin. He has gathered them into their original land before our very eyes and made them a nation as He said thousands of years ago that He would do it.

He has told us through Paul that He would save "all of Israel" and they will yet be His glory. Zechariah tells us how God will save Israel, the mourning that will take place in the land of Israel, "they will mourn as the loss of an only child, when they see the One they have pierced."

God tells us "I will yet choose Israel." He said that the nations of the world will come to Jerusalem and "take hold of the skirt of a Jew, and say, we will go with you to worship the Lord, for we have heard that God is with you."

It is all coming to full circle and we are closer than we think. The timeline for all things that take place in this world is centered around bringing the Jews back to God.

During this time (the age of Grace) God is bringing in the Gentiles, at the same time He is fulfilling His promise to Abraham for the Jews.
 
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claninja

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Ezekiel's vision is clearly NOT the New Jerusalem!

Simply saying no, doesn't make your statement true, please provide evidence as to why you believe they are different entities.

Per forum rules:
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  • When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial.

I would disagree with your assertion, because A.) there is no physical temple building for christians to worship in mentioned in the NT and B.) the similarities in description of the Ezekiel Temple and the New Jerusalem:


1.) BOTH the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple having water flowing from them
Revelation 22:1-2 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city.

Ezekiel 47:1-2 Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar

2.) BOTH the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple have trees growing on either side of the river producing fruit every month and have leaves for healing

Ezekiel 47:12 And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing.”

Revelation 22:2 On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

3.) BOTH the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple are where God's throne is
Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him

Ezekiel 43:6-7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple, and He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever.

4.) BOTH the New Jerusalem and the Jerusalem of the Ezekiel temple have 12 gates (3 on each side) with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Revelation 21:12-13 The city had a great and high wall with twelve gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and twelve angels at the gates. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south, and three on the west.

Ezekiel 48:33-35 These will be the exits of the city: Beginning on the north side, which measures 4,500 cubits long, the gates of the city will be named after the tribes of Israel. On the north side there will be three gates: the gate of Reuben, the gate of Judah, and the gate of Levi.
On the east side, which will be 4,500 cubits long, there will be three gates: the gate of Joseph, the gate of Benjamin, and the gate of Dan. On the south side, which will be 4,500 cubits long, there will be three gates: the gate of Simeon, the gate of Issachar, and the gate of Zebulun. And on the west side, which will be 4,500 cubits long, there will be three gates: the gate of Gad, the gate of Asher, and the gate of Naphtali. The perimeter of the city will be 18,000 cubitsh , and the name of the city from that day on will be: THE LORD IS THERE.”


This temple is during the 1000 reign of Christ! How do I know this?

When the thousand years are expired (Rev. 20:7-10) Satan will be loosed from his prison and will deceive the nations. They will all be destroyed and no sin or sinner will be left on earth.

There will still be sin sin during this 1000 year reign. It's clear because some nations will refuse to come to Jerusalem to worship Christ.

Beginning in Rev. 21, after the 1000 years, the New Jerusalem appears and there will be no more death, sorrow, crying, pain, these things are passed away.

This temple is clearly during the 1000 year reign of Christ with the New Jerusalem to follow at the end of this 1000 years.

Sure, just show which verse "clearly" and specifically mentions a physical temple building during the 1,000 year reign of Christ, so that we can confirm your interpretation is correct.

You still have yet to provide any NT scripture that clearly and specifically mentions believers will again worship in a future physical temple building.
 
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parousia70

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Yes, He is. During this age of Grace.
Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
 
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claninja

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During this time (the age of Grace) God is bringing in the Gentiles, at the same time He is fulfilling His promise to Abraham for the Jews.

According to the NT, the promises (notice promises is a plural word) to Abraham were not the Jews (plural offspring), but to a singular Jew (Jesus Christ).

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

Thus anyone looking outside of Christ for the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant is incorrect.
 
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parousia70

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Thus anyone looking outside of Christ for the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant is incorrect.

Amen... Are we not so blessed to have the apostolic interpretation of these things for our admonition?
 
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mkgal1

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Ephesians 3:21
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Great passage.

I don't see *any* age where God's grace wasn't present - especially a FUTURE age that wouldn't be considered an "age of grace" (as other posters seem to believe).

II Timothy 1:9 ~ For God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this, not because we deserved it, but because that was His plan from before the beginning of time—to show us His grace through Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:7 - So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of His grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.​
 
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parousia70

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Great passage.

I don't see *any* age where God's grace wasn't present - especially a FUTURE age that wouldn't be considered an "age of grace" (as other posters seem to believe).

Ephesians 2:7 - So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of His grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.​

Indeed.. and not only grace, but the Ephesians passage clearly testifies that Christ's Glory will be manifest IN THE CHURCH throughout all ages... rendering this silly notion of a "finite" Church age, wholly unscriptural.
 
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Charlie24

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Simply saying no, doesn't make your statement true, please provide evidence as to why you believe they are different entities.

Per forum rules:
  • When you disagree, address the context of the post and not the poster.
  • When you disagree with someone's position, you should post evidence and supporting statements for your position. This policy, sometimes referred to as "X means Y because of Z", must be followed especially when posting claims that are widely considered to be controversial.

I would disagree with your assertion, because A.) there is no physical temple building for christians to worship in mentioned in the NT and B.) the similarities in description of the Ezekiel Temple and the New Jerusalem:


1.) BOTH the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple having water flowing from them
Revelation 22:1-2 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city.

Ezekiel 47:1-2 Then he brought me back to the door of the temple, and behold, water was issuing from below the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was flowing down from below the south end of the threshold of the temple, south of the altar

2.) BOTH the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple have trees growing on either side of the river producing fruit every month and have leaves for healing

Ezekiel 47:12 And on the banks, on both sides of the river, there will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither, nor their fruit fail, but they will bear fresh fruit every month, because the water for them flows from the sanctuary. Their fruit will be for food, and their leaves for healing.”

Revelation 22:2 On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

3.) BOTH the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple are where God's throne is
Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him

Ezekiel 43:6-7 While the man was standing beside me, I heard someone speaking to me from inside the temple, and He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place for the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the Israelites forever.

4.) BOTH the New Jerusalem and the Jerusalem of the Ezekiel temple have 12 gates (3 on each side) with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Revelation 21:12-13 The city had a great and high wall with twelve gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and twelve angels at the gates. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south, and three on the west.

Ezekiel 48:33-35 These will be the exits of the city: Beginning on the north side, which measures 4,500 cubits long, the gates of the city will be named after the tribes of Israel. On the north side there will be three gates: the gate of Reuben, the gate of Judah, and the gate of Levi.
On the east side, which will be 4,500 cubits long, there will be three gates: the gate of Joseph, the gate of Benjamin, and the gate of Dan. On the south side, which will be 4,500 cubits long, there will be three gates: the gate of Simeon, the gate of Issachar, and the gate of Zebulun. And on the west side, which will be 4,500 cubits long, there will be three gates: the gate of Gad, the gate of Asher, and the gate of Naphtali. The perimeter of the city will be 18,000 cubitsh , and the name of the city from that day on will be: THE LORD IS THERE.”




Sure, just show which verse "clearly" and specifically mentions a physical temple building during the 1,000 year reign of Christ, so that we can confirm your interpretation is correct.

You still have yet to provide any NT scripture that clearly and specifically mentions believers will again worship in a future physical temple building.

Refer to post #285. Then compare that with Ezekiel's temple.
 
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claninja

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Refer to post #285. Then compare that with Ezekiel's temple.

There’s no scripture in that post to support any of your arguments. How am I suppose to know your interpretation is correct, out of the hundreds of different ones, if you don’t provide any NT support?
 
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