A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

sovereigngrace · Mar 11, 2020

claninja said:
I could use this same generic argument against you just because we disagree, but there are much better ways to have a fruitful discussion.

So let's test my "eisegesis".

I believe Jesus is quoting hosea 10:8 in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem, as he states "Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed" and tells the Daughters of Jerusalem STANDING IN FRONT OF HIM to weep for themselves, not for him

Luke 23:28-30 But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ At that time ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’

Using other scripture to help with this interpretation, we can see Jesus consistently talks about mothers, and wombs, and children being crushed by the destruction that was to happen in 66-70ad.

Luke 23:21 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people

Luke 23:43-44 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will barricade you and surround you and hem you in on every side. They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.e

Thus, by the evidence in the gospels, it seems to point that Jesus is quoting hosea 10:8 in regards to the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad.

However, in order to show that I am in fact using "eisegesis" it would be more helpful for to explain specifically why I am wrong about this conclusion and what verses you can provide to show support for your position other than just simply, and generically stating "eisegesis".

You do the same with the Old Testament that you do with the New Testament: your fixation with the coming of Titus and AD70 causes you to dump every prophetic passage that pertains to some other location or some other event into that one occurrence. Hosea 10:7-8 has absolutely nothing to do with Jerusalem and AD70. Aven (meaning iniquity), also called Beth-aven, representing the house of iniquity, is a place in the mountains of Benjamin, east of Bethel. The name is used in mockery for Bethel. God's Judgment of that wicked place in ancient times, because of its idolatry, serves as sobering harbinger for the judgment of the wicked globally at the climactic coming of the Lord in the future. It has nothing to do with Titus and AD70. Your hermeneutics are so colored by your obsession with AD70 that is hard to have a serious discussion with you.

claninja · Mar 11, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Of course I believe that Luke 23:21 relates to AD70. But there is a big difference between acknowledging a few isolated passages that relate to AD70 and what you and other Preterists do (who are fixated with the coming of Titus): relating everything in New Testament to AD70. Why are you so uncomfortable about talking about the second coming and the deliverance of mankind and creation from the bondage of corruption? Why?

Luke 23:21? I asked about Luke 23:28-30? When do you believe Luke 23:28-30 was/is to occur?

But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’
Luke 23:28-30 - Bible Gateway passage: Luke 23:28-30 - English Standard Version

sovereigngrace · Mar 11, 2020

claninja said:
Luke 23:21? I asked about Luke 23:28-30? When do you believe Luke 23:28-30 was/is to occur?

But turning to them Jesus said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. 29 For behold, the days are coming when they will say, ‘Blessed are the barren and the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!’ 30 Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’
Luke 23:28-30 - Bible Gateway passage: Luke 23:28-30 - English Standard Version

I meant to say Luke 23:28-30, I will reword my post. Yes I believe that relates to AD70.

Hosea 10:7-8 relates to God's Judgment of Aven (meaning iniquity), also called Beth-aven, representing the house of iniquity, is a place in the mountains of Benjamin, east of Bethel.

These two ancient judgments by God or a sobering harbinger of the final judgment.

keras · Mar 11, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I meant to say Luke 23:28-30, I will reword my post. Yes I believe that relates to AD70.

Hosea 10:7-8 relates to God's Judgment of Aven (meaning iniquity), also called Beth-aven, representing the house of iniquity, is a place in the mountains of Benjamin, east of Bethel.

These two ancient judgments by God or a sobering harbinger of the final judgment.

Both Hosea 10:7-8 and Luke 23:30-31 relate to the Sixth Seal, an event yet to happen.
Proved by Isaiah 2:12-22, the Day when the Lord will arise and strike the world with terror.

Thinking it has already happened or will happen at the Return of Jesus, is error and shows a serious lack of understanding of what the prophetic Word actually does tell us.

sovereigngrace · Mar 11, 2020

keras said:
Both Hosea 10:7-8 and Luke 23:30-31 relate to the Sixth Seal, an event yet to happen.
Proved by Isaiah 2:12-22, the Day when the Lord will arise and strike the world with terror.

Thinking it has already happened or will happen at the Return of Jesus, is error and shows a serious lack of understanding of what s[the prophetic Word actually does tell us.

Hosea 10:7-8 and Luke 23:30-31 were local destructions. They were types of the whole global destruction that accompanies Christ's return in Revelation 6:12-14.

claninja · Mar 11, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
You do the same with the Old Testament that you do with the New Testament: your fixation with the coming of Titus and AD70 causes you to dump every prophetic passage that pertains to some other location or some other event into that one occurrence. Hosea 10:7-8 has absolutely nothing to do with Jerusalem and AD70. Aven (meaning iniquity), also called Beth-aven, representing the house of iniquity, is a place in the mountains of Benjamin, east of Bethel. The name is used in mockery for Bethel. God's Judgment of that wicked place in ancient times, because of its idolatry, serves as sobering harbinger for the judgment of the wicked globally at the climactic coming of the Lord in the future. It has nothing to do with Titus and AD70. Your hermeneutics are so colored by your obsession with AD70 that is hard to have a serious discussion with you.

sovereigngrace said:
I meant to say Luke 23:28-30, I will reword my post. Yes I believe that relates to AD70.

Little confused by your position now SG. On one hand, in post #21:

"Hosea 10:7-8 has absolutely nothing to do with Jerusalem and AD70."

However, in Post #23 you state :

"I meant to say Luke 23:28-30, I will reword my post. Yes I believe that relates to AD70."

Not sure how one can believe hosea 10:8 has nothing to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad, and also believe Jesus' quote of Hosea 10:8 is associated with the destruction of the Jerusalem in 66-70ad?

sovereigngrace said:
Hosea 10:7-8 relates to God's Judgment of Aven (meaning iniquity), also called Beth-aven, representing the house of iniquity, is a place in the mountains of Benjamin, east of Bethel.

There are types and there are antitypes. Types are not the fulfillment. Antitypes are the fulfillment. From just a logical standpoint, things aren't brought to completion twice.

So the "Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’" has applicability in Hosea 10:8 to the audience in God's judgment on them via Assyria, but that is not is fulfillment, but a shadow. It's fulfillment is found where Jesus states it is fulfilled, in the Antitype: Luke 23:28-30.

Considering revelation is highly symbolic and requires using "scripture to interpret scripture" for understanding, why would it not be more appropriate to interpret revelation using luke 23:28-30 verse interpreting revelation 6:16 as a standalone?

It doesn't seem that you hold to "scripture interpreting scripture" when goes against your eschatological belief.

You appear to breaking your own rules #6 and #7

"6th rule: Scripture is its own best interpreter; we must therefore support Scripture with Scripture. Explore the full gamut of Scripture on a matter. See what other similar Scripture says."

"7th rule: Let clear and explicit Scripture interpret obscure and symbolic Scripture, not the other way around."

Andrewn · Mar 11, 2020

claninja said:
Not sure how one can believe hosea 10:8 has nothing to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad, and also believe Jesus' quote of Hosea 10:8 is associated with the destruction of the Jerusalem in 66-70ad?

It's a very weak case to say that the expression "They will say to the mountains, 'Cover us,' to the hills, 'Fall on us,'" refers only to one or 2 incidents when it could have conceivably be applied to numerous historical incidents both past and future.

claninja said:
Considering revelation is highly symbolic and requires using "scripture to interpret scripture" for understanding, why would it not be more appropriate to interpret revelation using luke 23:28-30 verse interpreting revelation 6:16 as a standalone?

Because the same expression is used in Hos 8, Luk 6, and Rev 6 doesn't mean at all they're describing the same incident. The 6th seal comes after 5 other seals that are neither described in Hos 8 nor in Luk 6. To equate all 3 events bec of this little expression is grasping at straws.

sovereigngrace · Mar 11, 2020

Andrewn said:
It's a very weak case to say that the expression "They will say to the mountains, 'Cover us,' to the hills, 'Fall on us,'" refers only to one or 2 incidents when it could have conceivably be applied to numerous historical incidents both past and future.

Because the same expression is used in Hos 8, Luk 6, and Rev 6 doesn't mean at all they're describing the same incident. The 6th seal comes after 5 other seals that are neither described in Hos 8 nor in Luk 6. To equate all 3 events bec of this little expression is grasping at straws.

I couldn't put it better myself. Well said!

claninja · Mar 11, 2020

Andrewn said:
Because the same expression is used in Hos 8, Luk 6, and Rev 6 doesn't mean at all they're describing the same incident. The 6th seal comes after 5 other seals that are neither described in Hos 8 nor in Luk 6. To equate all 3 events bec of this little expression is grasping at straws.

that’s how using scripture to interpret scripture works. If that’s not how you interpret, then don’t call it interpreting scripture with scripture.

All of the seals can be found in the gospels, especially the Olivet discourse

Andrewn said:
It's a very weak case to say that the expression "They will say to the mountains, 'Cover us,' to the hills, 'Fall on us,'" refers only to one or 2 incidents when it could have conceivably be applied to numerous historical incidents both past and future.

not 2, but one fulfillment: where Jesus says its fulfilled in Luke 23:28-30.

as soon as we start applying this verse as “fulfillment’s” to numerous historical incidents outside of Christ’s, it simply becomes non biblical personal interpretation. You may apply it to whatever you want, but I’ll stick with Christ’s application in Luke 23:28-30

sovereigngrace · Mar 11, 2020

claninja said:
Little confused by your position now SG. On one hand, in post #21:

"Hosea 10:7-8 has absolutely nothing to do with Jerusalem and AD70."

However, in Post #23 you state :

"I meant to say Luke 23:28-30, I will reword my post. Yes I believe that relates to AD70."

Not sure how one can believe hosea 10:8 has nothing to do with the destruction of Jerusalem in 66-70ad, and also believe Jesus' quote of Hosea 10:8 is associated with the destruction of the Jerusalem in 66-70ad?

There are types and there are antitypes. Types are not the fulfillment. Antitypes are the fulfillment. From just a logical standpoint, things aren't brought to completion twice.

So the "Then they will begin to say to the mountains, ‘Fall on us,’ and to the hills, ‘Cover us.’" has applicability in Hosea 10:8 to the audience in God's judgment on them via Assyria, but that is not is fulfillment, but a shadow. It's fulfillment is found where Jesus states it is fulfilled, in the Antitype: Luke 23:28-30.

Considering revelation is highly symbolic and requires using "scripture to interpret scripture" for understanding, why would it not be more appropriate to interpret revelation using luke 23:28-30 verse interpreting revelation 6:16 as a standalone?

It doesn't seem that you hold to "scripture interpreting scripture" when goes against your eschatological belief.

You appear to breaking your own rules #6 and #7

"6th rule: Scripture is its own best interpreter; we must therefore support Scripture with Scripture. Explore the full gamut of Scripture on a matter. See what other similar Scripture says."

"7th rule: Let clear and explicit Scripture interpret obscure and symbolic Scripture, not the other way around."

The opposite is actually the truth! The problem here is your unhealthy fixation with the coming of Titus and AD70. It colors your approach to every text. That is why your hermeneutics are messed up. You cannot think outside of that secondary event. It is the focal point of history for you. It is the focus of Scripture (old and New). The life, character and achievements of Christ are pushed into the background in your theology, whereas they are central to those of the Holy Spirit and the sacred text. The earthly ministry of Christ vastly out-weights the importance of AD70, yet that is all you want to talk about. You concentrate little (if any) on the sinless life, the atoning death and victorious resurrection of Christ. In your estimation, it is not the work of Christ on the cross that abolishes the the old covenant and introduces the new, but Titus and his coming in AD70. You totally sidestep the climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the future and the deliverance of creation from the bondage of corruption, including the resurrection of mankind and the general resurrection. You rather attribute text after text that relates to this all-consummating event to AD70.

DavidPT · Mar 11, 2020

Andrewn said:
It's a very weak case to say that the expression "They will say to the mountains, 'Cover us,' to the hills, 'Fall on us,'" refers only to one or 2 incidents when it could have conceivably be applied to numerous historical incidents both past and future.

Because the same expression is used in Hos 8, Luk 6, and Rev 6 doesn't mean at all they're describing the same incident. The 6th seal comes after 5 other seals that are neither described in Hos 8 nor in Luk 6. To equate all 3 events bec of this little expression is grasping at straws.

Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

Hosea 10:8 The high places also of Aven, the sin of Israel, shall be destroyed: the thorn and the thistle shall come up on their altars; and they shall say to the mountains, Cover us; and to the hills, Fall on us.

Clearly Luke 23:30 is quoting from Hosea 10:8. It's undeniable. What's in question though, is Luke 23:30 even meaning Revelation 6:16? Why not compare to Isaiah 2:10-22 instead? Is anything in Isaiah 2:10-22 being quoted from Hosea 10:8?

keras · Mar 11, 2020

The “Little Apocalypse” of Jesus :

Luke 23:27-31 A great number of people followed Jesus on His way to execution, among them many women who mourned and lamented over Him. Jesus turned to them and said: Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, weep for yourselves and your children. For the days are coming when people will say: Happy are those who don’t have children to worry about. Because then all will call to the mountains “fall on us” and to the hills “hide us”.
For if these things are done when the wood is green, what will happen when the wood is dry? Reference: REB, NIV.

‘weep for yourselves’, For those in Jerusalem at that time, this warned them about the coming conquest and destruction by the Romans. But it is also a dual prophecy, as then the Christians were told to ‘take to the hills’ and they escaped to Pella, in the Northern Jordan valley. Luke 20:24

‘For if these things are done when the wood is green, what will happen when the wood is dry?’ A Jewish proverb. An English equivalent: ‘You ain’t seen nuthin yet!’ Green wood doesn’t burn well, dry wood does, so Jesus is saying: you can expect a lot worse carnage and violence to come in a later event.

‘fall on us and hide us’, This is paralleled by Revelation 6:15-17 and Isaiah 2:21, both in passages that vividly describe the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. As Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a at the commencement of His ministry, what follows in verse 2b is the Day when He will destroy His enemies: those who attack Israel and all the ungodly peoples. Deuteronomy 32:34-35, Psalms 83, Isaiah 2:12-21, Isaiah 5:25, Isaiah 33:10-12, Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 66:15-16, Ezekiel 20:46-47, Joel 1:15, Psalms 97:3-5, Malachi 4:1, Hebrews 10:27

claninja · Mar 11, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
The opposite is actually the truth! The problem here is your unhealthy fixation with the coming of Titus and AD70. It colors your approach to every text. That is why your hermeneutics are messed up. You cannot think outside of that secondary event. It is the focal point of history for you. It is the focus of Scripture (old and New). The life, character and achievements of Christ are pushed into the background in your theology, whereas they are central to those of the Holy Spirit and the sacred text. The earthly ministry of Christ vastly out-weights the importance of AD70, yet that is all you want to talk about. You concentrate little (if any) on the sinless life, the atoning death and victorious resurrection of Christ. In your estimation, it is not the work of Christ on the cross that abolishes the the old covenant and introduces the new, but Titus and his coming in AD70. You totally sidestep the climatic coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in the future and the deliverance of creation from the bondage of corruption, including the resurrection of mankind and the general resurrection. You rather attribute text after text that relates to this all-consummating event to AD70.

this addresses nothing in my post and further shows that you do not follow your own interpretative rules, specifically 6 and7) if it interferes with your eschatological beliefs

sovereigngrace · Mar 11, 2020

claninja said:
this addresses nothing in my post and further shows that you do not follow your own interpretative rules, specifically 6 and7) if it interferes with your eschatological beliefs

I already addressed this. Andrew did also.

Hosea 10:7-8 relates to God's Judgment of Aven (meaning iniquity), also called Beth-aven, representing the house of iniquity, is a place in the mountains of Benjamin, east of Bethel. It is NOTHING to do with AD70.

Luke 23:28-30 relates to AD70.

Luke 23:28-30 relates to AD70. Hosea 10:7-8 and Luke 23:30-31 were local destructions. They were types of the whole global destruction that accompanies Christ's return in Revelation 6:12-14. These two ancient judgments by God are sobering harbingers of the end (Revelation 6:12-14).

As Andrew ably said, just because the same expression is used in Hosea 8, Luke 6, and Revelation 6 does not mean they are describing the same incident. The sixth seal comes after five other detailed seals that bear no connection with Hosea 8 nor Luke 6. To equate all three events because of this simple expression is grasping at straws.

sovereigngrace · Mar 12, 2020

claninja said:
this addresses nothing in my post and further shows that you do not follow your own interpretative rules, specifically 6 and7) if it interferes with your eschatological beliefs

Would you care to actually address the Op instead of sidetracking on a non-issue?

Davy · Mar 12, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
I already addressed this. Andrew did also.

Hosea 10:7-8 relates to God's Judgment of Aven (meaning iniquity), also called Beth-aven, representing the house of iniquity, is a place in the mountains of Benjamin, east of Bethel. It is NOTHING to do with AD70.

Luke 23:28-30 relates to AD70.

Hosea 10:7-8 and Luke 23:30-31 were local destructions. They were types of the whole global destruction that accompanies Christ's return in Revelation 6:12-14. These two ancient judgments by God are a sobering harbinger of the end (Revelation 6:12-14).

As Andrew ably said, just because the same expression is used in Hosea 8, Luke 6, and Revelation 6 does not mean they are describing the same incident. The sixth seal comes after five other detailed seals that bear no connection with Hosea 8 nor Luke 6. To equate all three events because of this simple expression is grasping at straws.

Luke 23:28-31 relates to the tribulation timing. Jesus was quoting from Isaiah 54 which is about God's elect who remain symbolically chaste while the deceived are symbolically as harlots. It has to do with false worship during the tribulation. Paul said he wanted to present us to Christ, our True Husband, as "a chaste virgin". So Jesus wasn't just warning the Jews of that era but mainly their children (for the end).

claninja · Mar 12, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Hosea 10:7-8 relates to God's Judgment of Aven (meaning iniquity), also called Beth-aven, representing the house of iniquity, is a place in the mountains of Benjamin, east of Bethel. It is NOTHING to do with AD70.

Luke 23:28-30 relates to AD70.

Jesus quotes Hosea 10:8 in regards to 70ad, which surmounts your argument that hosea 10:8 has nothing to do with 70ad.

Luke 23:28-30
But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ At that time ‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!” and to the hills, “Cover us!”’c

sovereigngrace said:
Hosea 10:7-8 and Luke 23:30-31 were local destructions. They were types of the whole global destruction that accompanies Christ's return in Revelation 6:12-14. These two ancient judgments by God are a sobering harbinger of the end (Revelation 6:12-14).

Then you are not using scripture to interpret scripture in this case, thus breaking rule #6 and #7.

"see what other similar scripture states". Thus hosea 10:8, Luke 23:28-20, and Revelation 6:16 should be used to interpret each other.

"6th rule: Scripture is its own best interpreter; we must therefore support Scripture with Scripture. Explore the full gamut of Scripture on a matter. See what other similar Scripture says."

Clear scripture, such as Luke 23:28-30 should be used to interpret symbolic scripture like revelation 6:16.

"7th rule: Let clear and explicit Scripture interpret obscure and symbolic Scripture, not the other way around."

sovereigngrace said:
As Andrew ably said, just because the same expression is used in Hosea 8, Luke 6, and Revelation 6 does not mean they are describing the same incident. The sixth seal comes after five other detailed seals that bear no connection with Hosea 8 nor Luke 6. To equate all three events because of this simple expression is grasping at straws.

This demonstrates very clearly that "interpretation scripture using scripture" is not being used when it goes against your eschatological belief.

To equate revelation 6:16 and Luke 23:28-30 because of their quotations of Hosea 10:8 is called "using scripture to interpret scripture". Otherwise, we can make scripture say whatever we desire, which is very common among futurists.

claninja · Mar 12, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Would you care to actually address the Op instead of sidetracking on a non-issue?

From the OP:

sovereigngrace said:
One of the most important hermeneutical principles is interpreting Scripture with Scripture.

Aren't we talking about using scripture to interpret scripture?

Additionally, post #5, I used OT to scripture to show how we should interpret NT scripture in point 4 and 5 as related to the olivet discourse.

Christian Gedge · Mar 12, 2020

sovereigngrace said:
Hosea 10:7-8 and Luke 23:30-31 were local destructions. They were types of the whole global destruction that accompanies Christ's return in Revelation 6:12-14.

I think Jesus used the Hosea language as a harbinger of both AD 70 and the final global destruction. Like you say, AD70 is itself a ‘type.’ They are examples of near / far fulfilments that I was trying to explain on another thread.

sovereigngrace · Mar 12, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
I think Jesus used the Hosea language as a harbinger of both AD 70 and the final global destruction. Like you say, AD70 is itself a ‘type.’ They are examples of near / far fulfilments that I was trying to explain on another thread.

Yes, I agree. I see the ancient Old Testament types and the future ultimate climactic fulfillment at the end.

A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

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